The existance of cheese is what gives life to the early game. Most cheese games are not that fun themselves, but the need to scout for it, and the fact that it adds diversity more than compensate for it IMO. Would hate if every game started with fast expands. However i do agree that cheeses and all ins are bad when they are used too much, then its really boring.
On November 11 2014 13:20 mishimaBeef wrote: "the early game dead time is an important part of Starcraft"
How so? Mind games?
Yep:
If you can declare bullshit, bad, uninteresting coinflips an important part of Starcraft then I want to declare this kind of stuff an important part of starcraft too:
At least in those games you need skill not luck to win.
NaNiwa knew that JD wanted to go 3 Hatch Before Pool so he played on that. He did the same thing to HyuN at another tournament for the same reason. sOs knew that herO wasn't scouting properly so he played on that. It's an important part of punishing player's who are known to be greedy. If you don't find mindgames interesting then fair enough, but waiting an extra minute for those of us who do can't be that bad.
The game you posted has nothing to do with mindgames or coinflips so I don't really know why you're posting it. The problems that the SH has have nothing to do with proxy Gateways or 11/11 Rax or 6 Pools or whatever else you can do before 10 supply (and there are a lot of builds you can do before 10 supply yet alone 12).
Yeah. Incredible dull are those cheeses. Its luckbased. The attacks that happens are uninteresting. Nothing to see at all. Especially in a so called-esport.
New rushes/attacks will happen that requires skill, micro, decision making. Without going all-in or doing an extremely risky cheese.
Thats how it should be.
All-ins and cheeses are boring.
If all-ins and cheeses are boring, then why do crowds regularly go hype when they happen? I already posted videos were the crowd and the casters (Artosis and Apollo in both cases, which means very top-tier casters) were excited about proxy strategies being used. Artosis and Apollo even manage to lay down some analysis on why the proxies are being used. I also know from experience that LR threads tend to tick over a few pages when people proxy just through people being hype about it. I therefore find it hard to believe that removing these options from the game is a good move by Blizzard.
I wrote in a post above that its the excitement around it. Not the execution in itself. A big match and a proxy 2gate goes down. Now its a very big chance to win the game right there.
This brings emotions. Doesnt mean the proxy initself is fun.
So you think that people getting emotional about the game is something Blizzard should seek to remove?
Nothing else you've said is worth reading. I'm not arguing with someone who truly believes that it's a bad thing when viewers get emotional about a game, or buy into the emotions of a player who is going for something so ballsy.
No. Instead of only emotional you will have the emotional and the fun both at the same time.
You're making the assumption - with no evidence - that people don't find that emotional side of the game fun.
The crowd reactions I've posted say otherwise.
Unless you have some sort of evidence that crowds/viewers are really unhype when crazy shit happens early in a game then I suggest you stop posting because you don't have a leg to stand on.
Yeah because your evidence proofs it. No it dont.
If you watch a shitboring tv-program on TV with your girlfriend. You will be excited and therefore do find the tv-program not that bad to watch. Maybe even fun to watch.
So its not the tv-program intiself that provides this. Same with proxy stuff.
What iam saying is: You will find the agression parts FUN and bring emotional things to it.
Cheese will exist whether you like it or not, though. It's just relative to what you consider 'standard'. The game loses alot of interest for me when you know both players are just gonna play 15 minute no rush. The fact that, at any point, either player can throw his hat in and start attacking (i mean in general there are timings to attack from the very start onwards) is one of the things that makes starcraft exciting to watch. Watching big old macro games is great too don't get me wrong, but if that's all I ever saw i'd go off watching pretty quickly.
On November 12 2014 01:47 Superbanana wrote: The existance of cheese is what gives life to the early game. Most cheese games are not that fun themselves, but the need to scout for it, and the fact that it adds diversity more than compensate for it IMO. Would hate if every game started with fast expands. However i do agree that cheeses and all ins are bad when they are used too much, then its really boring.
Well early game is generally boring, but you can still have aggression such as Reaper/Hellion/banshee/medivac play pre 10 minute mark that relies on micro/skills rather than build-order luck, and leaves more room for back-and-fourth games. From my experience, if I watch someone going 2rax, I just stop watching the game as I don't care about how good one player is at controlling his 5 marines vs the enemy's 8 zerglings and 1 queen.
On November 12 2014 01:52 Tzyx wrote: Cheese will exist whether you like it or not, though. It's just relative to what you consider 'standard'. The game loses alot of interest for me when you know both players are just gonna play 15 minute no rush. The fact that, at any point, either player can throw his hat in and start attacking (i mean in general there are timings to attack from the very start onwards) is one of the things that makes starcraft exciting to watch. Watching big old macro games is great too don't get me wrong, but if that's all I ever saw i'd go off watching pretty quickly.
Exactly. This is things i brought up in my earlier posts.
There is a difference in a bo-lose bo-win cheese or a 2base cheese where its possible to scout/react towards it. Cheese and all-in will always Exist. Obviously.
But hopefully blizzard makes it with skill-enough able to defend it with relative easy if that player knows how to scout. AKA, the tools to scout should be there and the all-in shouldnt be as strong.
A real rts. And i hope sc2 do this is, to have a real chance of winning against this player. You cant just simple cheese or all-in but you have to do some skillfull move or micro really well in fights etc.
Ofcourse we will have skillfull cheesers that can cheese once in a while. This will happen very rarely but still exist.
If people find aggressive plays fun then that's all that matters. I don't care why they find it fun. Since you've just said that people will find the aggressive parts fun then I can only assume that you're now agreeing with me. It's hard to tell because you English isn't that great...
When i said agressive parts i did mean agressive parts without the all-in or cheese. This is fun to watch. Sc2 is kinda lacking this but i hope lotv brings it.
Out of curiosity, does anyone know the history on 4 gate and Soul Train? Seemed like they were pretty big 'cheese aggression' builds that were figured out. Or maybe some patches were put in place. Maybe both, can't remember.
But, I think it's safe to say we know a lot more about the game (WoL/HoTS, not LoTV) and are better at it, despite the claims in the early days of sc2 of "we get RTS games" (implying we could accurately predict the complex interactions involved).
EDIT: Finally, "cheese", "aggression", "all-in", whatever you want to call it, will likely still exist in the new game.
Are people questioning the existence of cheese? People, cheese is a legit strategy (and should not even be named cheese), and should exist, whether you like it or not.
If you can declare bullshit, bad, uninteresting coinflips an important part of Starcraft then I want to declare this kind of stuff an important part of starcraft too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKPlGknTaTw
At least in those games you need skill not luck to win.
NaNiwa knew that JD wanted to go 3 Hatch Before Pool so he played on that. He did the same thing to HyuN at another tournament for the same reason. sOs knew that herO wasn't scouting properly so he played on that. It's an important part of punishing player's who are known to be greedy. If you don't find mindgames interesting then fair enough, but waiting an extra minute for those of us who do can't be that bad.
The game you posted has nothing to do with mindgames or coinflips so I don't really know why you're posting it. The problems that the SH has have nothing to do with proxy Gateways or 11/11 Rax or 6 Pools or whatever else you can do before 10 supply (and there are a lot of builds you can do before 10 supply yet alone 12).
Yeah. Incredible dull are those cheeses. Its luckbased. The attacks that happens are uninteresting. Nothing to see at all. Especially in a so called-esport.
New rushes/attacks will happen that requires skill, micro, decision making. Without going all-in or doing an extremely risky cheese.
Thats how it should be.
All-ins and cheeses are boring.
If all-ins and cheeses are boring, then why do crowds regularly go hype when they happen? I already posted videos were the crowd and the casters (Artosis and Apollo in both cases, which means very top-tier casters) were excited about proxy strategies being used. Artosis and Apollo even manage to lay down some analysis on why the proxies are being used. I also know from experience that LR threads tend to tick over a few pages when people proxy just through people being hype about it. I therefore find it hard to believe that removing these options from the game is a good move by Blizzard.
I wrote in a post above that its the excitement around it. Not the execution in itself. A big match and a proxy 2gate goes down. Now its a very big chance to win the game right there.
This brings emotions. Doesnt mean the proxy initself is fun.
So you think that people getting emotional about the game is something Blizzard should seek to remove?
Nothing else you've said is worth reading. I'm not arguing with someone who truly believes that it's a bad thing when viewers get emotional about a game, or buy into the emotions of a player who is going for something so ballsy.
Clearly Riot should add some kind of coinflip ("mind game") backdooring strategy to League of Legends that gives you a chance to win the game in the first five minutes. It would be so exciting!
If you can declare bullshit, bad, uninteresting coinflips an important part of Starcraft then I want to declare this kind of stuff an important part of starcraft too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKPlGknTaTw
At least in those games you need skill not luck to win.
NaNiwa knew that JD wanted to go 3 Hatch Before Pool so he played on that. He did the same thing to HyuN at another tournament for the same reason. sOs knew that herO wasn't scouting properly so he played on that. It's an important part of punishing player's who are known to be greedy. If you don't find mindgames interesting then fair enough, but waiting an extra minute for those of us who do can't be that bad.
The game you posted has nothing to do with mindgames or coinflips so I don't really know why you're posting it. The problems that the SH has have nothing to do with proxy Gateways or 11/11 Rax or 6 Pools or whatever else you can do before 10 supply (and there are a lot of builds you can do before 10 supply yet alone 12).
Yeah. Incredible dull are those cheeses. Its luckbased. The attacks that happens are uninteresting. Nothing to see at all. Especially in a so called-esport.
New rushes/attacks will happen that requires skill, micro, decision making. Without going all-in or doing an extremely risky cheese.
Thats how it should be.
All-ins and cheeses are boring.
If all-ins and cheeses are boring, then why do crowds regularly go hype when they happen? I already posted videos were the crowd and the casters (Artosis and Apollo in both cases, which means very top-tier casters) were excited about proxy strategies being used. Artosis and Apollo even manage to lay down some analysis on why the proxies are being used. I also know from experience that LR threads tend to tick over a few pages when people proxy just through people being hype about it. I therefore find it hard to believe that removing these options from the game is a good move by Blizzard.
I wrote in a post above that its the excitement around it. Not the execution in itself. A big match and a proxy 2gate goes down. Now its a very big chance to win the game right there.
This brings emotions. Doesnt mean the proxy initself is fun.
So you think that people getting emotional about the game is something Blizzard should seek to remove?
Nothing else you've said is worth reading. I'm not arguing with someone who truly believes that it's a bad thing when viewers get emotional about a game, or buy into the emotions of a player who is going for something so ballsy.
Clearly Riot should add some kind of coinflip ("mind game") backdooring strategy to League of Legends that gives you a chance to win the game in the first five minutes. It would be so exciting!
If you can declare bullshit, bad, uninteresting coinflips an important part of Starcraft then I want to declare this kind of stuff an important part of starcraft too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKPlGknTaTw
At least in those games you need skill not luck to win.
NaNiwa knew that JD wanted to go 3 Hatch Before Pool so he played on that. He did the same thing to HyuN at another tournament for the same reason. sOs knew that herO wasn't scouting properly so he played on that. It's an important part of punishing player's who are known to be greedy. If you don't find mindgames interesting then fair enough, but waiting an extra minute for those of us who do can't be that bad.
The game you posted has nothing to do with mindgames or coinflips so I don't really know why you're posting it. The problems that the SH has have nothing to do with proxy Gateways or 11/11 Rax or 6 Pools or whatever else you can do before 10 supply (and there are a lot of builds you can do before 10 supply yet alone 12).
Yeah. Incredible dull are those cheeses. Its luckbased. The attacks that happens are uninteresting. Nothing to see at all. Especially in a so called-esport.
New rushes/attacks will happen that requires skill, micro, decision making. Without going all-in or doing an extremely risky cheese.
Thats how it should be.
All-ins and cheeses are boring.
If all-ins and cheeses are boring, then why do crowds regularly go hype when they happen? I already posted videos were the crowd and the casters (Artosis and Apollo in both cases, which means very top-tier casters) were excited about proxy strategies being used. Artosis and Apollo even manage to lay down some analysis on why the proxies are being used. I also know from experience that LR threads tend to tick over a few pages when people proxy just through people being hype about it. I therefore find it hard to believe that removing these options from the game is a good move by Blizzard.
I wrote in a post above that its the excitement around it. Not the execution in itself. A big match and a proxy 2gate goes down. Now its a very big chance to win the game right there.
This brings emotions. Doesnt mean the proxy initself is fun.
So you think that people getting emotional about the game is something Blizzard should seek to remove?
Nothing else you've said is worth reading. I'm not arguing with someone who truly believes that it's a bad thing when viewers get emotional about a game, or buy into the emotions of a player who is going for something so ballsy.
Clearly Riot should add some kind of coinflip ("mind game") backdooring strategy to League of Legends that gives you a chance to win the game in the first five minutes. It would be so exciting!
It is called invade and yes people like it
Pretty big difference between going into enemy terriority (invade) and going into enemy nexus and just killing it before any real battles actually have begun.
If you can declare bullshit, bad, uninteresting coinflips an important part of Starcraft then I want to declare this kind of stuff an important part of starcraft too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKPlGknTaTw
At least in those games you need skill not luck to win.
NaNiwa knew that JD wanted to go 3 Hatch Before Pool so he played on that. He did the same thing to HyuN at another tournament for the same reason. sOs knew that herO wasn't scouting properly so he played on that. It's an important part of punishing player's who are known to be greedy. If you don't find mindgames interesting then fair enough, but waiting an extra minute for those of us who do can't be that bad.
The game you posted has nothing to do with mindgames or coinflips so I don't really know why you're posting it. The problems that the SH has have nothing to do with proxy Gateways or 11/11 Rax or 6 Pools or whatever else you can do before 10 supply (and there are a lot of builds you can do before 10 supply yet alone 12).
Yeah. Incredible dull are those cheeses. Its luckbased. The attacks that happens are uninteresting. Nothing to see at all. Especially in a so called-esport.
New rushes/attacks will happen that requires skill, micro, decision making. Without going all-in or doing an extremely risky cheese.
Thats how it should be.
All-ins and cheeses are boring.
If all-ins and cheeses are boring, then why do crowds regularly go hype when they happen? I already posted videos were the crowd and the casters (Artosis and Apollo in both cases, which means very top-tier casters) were excited about proxy strategies being used. Artosis and Apollo even manage to lay down some analysis on why the proxies are being used. I also know from experience that LR threads tend to tick over a few pages when people proxy just through people being hype about it. I therefore find it hard to believe that removing these options from the game is a good move by Blizzard.
I wrote in a post above that its the excitement around it. Not the execution in itself. A big match and a proxy 2gate goes down. Now its a very big chance to win the game right there.
This brings emotions. Doesnt mean the proxy initself is fun.
So you think that people getting emotional about the game is something Blizzard should seek to remove?
Nothing else you've said is worth reading. I'm not arguing with someone who truly believes that it's a bad thing when viewers get emotional about a game, or buy into the emotions of a player who is going for something so ballsy.
Clearly Riot should add some kind of coinflip ("mind game") backdooring strategy to League of Legends that gives you a chance to win the game in the first five minutes. It would be so exciting!
This comment is really unnecessary and you know it. It's the equivalent of "Clearly LoL should remove towers and add base building into the game" - apples and oranges man.
If you can declare bullshit, bad, uninteresting coinflips an important part of Starcraft then I want to declare this kind of stuff an important part of starcraft too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKPlGknTaTw
At least in those games you need skill not luck to win.
NaNiwa knew that JD wanted to go 3 Hatch Before Pool so he played on that. He did the same thing to HyuN at another tournament for the same reason. sOs knew that herO wasn't scouting properly so he played on that. It's an important part of punishing player's who are known to be greedy. If you don't find mindgames interesting then fair enough, but waiting an extra minute for those of us who do can't be that bad.
The game you posted has nothing to do with mindgames or coinflips so I don't really know why you're posting it. The problems that the SH has have nothing to do with proxy Gateways or 11/11 Rax or 6 Pools or whatever else you can do before 10 supply (and there are a lot of builds you can do before 10 supply yet alone 12).
Yeah. Incredible dull are those cheeses. Its luckbased. The attacks that happens are uninteresting. Nothing to see at all. Especially in a so called-esport.
New rushes/attacks will happen that requires skill, micro, decision making. Without going all-in or doing an extremely risky cheese.
Thats how it should be.
All-ins and cheeses are boring.
If all-ins and cheeses are boring, then why do crowds regularly go hype when they happen? I already posted videos were the crowd and the casters (Artosis and Apollo in both cases, which means very top-tier casters) were excited about proxy strategies being used. Artosis and Apollo even manage to lay down some analysis on why the proxies are being used. I also know from experience that LR threads tend to tick over a few pages when people proxy just through people being hype about it. I therefore find it hard to believe that removing these options from the game is a good move by Blizzard.
I wrote in a post above that its the excitement around it. Not the execution in itself. A big match and a proxy 2gate goes down. Now its a very big chance to win the game right there.
This brings emotions. Doesnt mean the proxy initself is fun.
So you think that people getting emotional about the game is something Blizzard should seek to remove?
Nothing else you've said is worth reading. I'm not arguing with someone who truly believes that it's a bad thing when viewers get emotional about a game, or buy into the emotions of a player who is going for something so ballsy.
Clearly Riot should add some kind of coinflip ("mind game") backdooring strategy to League of Legends that gives you a chance to win the game in the first five minutes. It would be so exciting!
It is called invade and yes people like it
Pretty big difference between going into enemy terriority (invade) and going into enemy nexus and just killing it before any real battles actually have begun.
The only difference is that you cannot win the game right there in lol. (but in fact you pretty much do if you get 2 kills and assists on every member) The rest is quite similar (at least when they actually engage there, so i probably should have said "invade trap" or something like that) Also it is a weird statement to make regardless, lol NEEDS this sort of defenders advantage, otherwise it simply wouldn't be playable.
The only difference is that you cannot win the game right there in lol. (but in fact you pretty much do if you get 2 kills and assists on every member)
And there is also another difference. League entertainment is related to champion vs champion interactons (regardless of the number of champios involved)
Sc2 isn't about 5 marines v 10 zerglings. For the Sc2-skillset to be exciting you need to see larger amount of units being microed all around the map. Therefore it makes perfect sense that invade is entertaining and 2rax isn't.
The only difference is that you cannot win the game right there in lol. (but in fact you pretty much do if you get 2 kills and assists on every member)
And there is also another difference. League entertainment is related to champion vs champion interactons (regardless of the number of champios involved)
Sc2 isn't about 5 marines v 10 zerglings. For the Sc2-skillset to be exciting you need to see larger amount of units being microed all around the map. Therefore it makes perfect sense that invade is entertaining and 2rax isn't.
Invading isn't entertaning cause of the champion interactions at all. WIth lvl 1 there are no real interactions. It is only about "huh will team B go into that trap", kinda like "huh will player b lose to that proxy gate"
I'm definitely against the starting worker change, maybe go to 8? The threat of early pools, barracks before 12 (see the 8/8/8 reaper in the blizzcon life vs taeja games) help keep things interesting. Zvz at least will be much more boring in the early game, though i guess less coin flippy.
I'm not sure I even understand the motivation exactly behind the worker change. Ok 95% of games you will go up to those workers anyways. But in professional matches this gives a bit of downtime to introduce the players and talk about them for a sec. In my day-to-day ladder games that first minute gives me some time to mentally prepare and go over my build and any changes I want to make to my game from the previous game. Just not sure if the benefit outweighs the negative.
On November 12 2014 04:10 Tenks wrote: I'm not sure I even understand the motivation exactly behind the worker change. Ok 95% of games you will go up to those workers anyways. But in professional matches this gives a bit of downtime to introduce the players and talk about them for a sec. In my day-to-day ladder games that first minute gives me some time to mentally prepare and go over my build and any changes I want to make to my game from the previous game. Just not sure if the benefit outweighs the negative.
I watch a lot of pro matches, still too much down time. As for the ladder point, you can prepare your builds ahead of time. Say I want to play 10 straight matches with the same build, I have to prepare it at the beginning of every game?
EPT
