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Daralii
United States16991 Posts
On November 11 2014 20:21 The_Templar wrote: The range was reduced from 9 to 8 iirc Also indirectly nerfed by the cyclone's existence. Run in, lockon, run out and the colossus is probably dead if the toss doesn't load it into a prism. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 11 2014 20:21 The_Templar wrote: The range was reduced from 9 to 8 iirc That's nice, but instead of nerfing they should completely remake it. The Colossus suffers from everything that is wrong in SC2: supply inflation, anticonceptual unit (= artillery without the weaknesses of an artillery), poor microability, horrible interactions, exponential growth of firepower leading to deathball play... - Supply should be reduced from 6 to 4. - Cost should be decreased (e. g. 200/150); same for the range upgrade if it's kept (100/100 or 150/150). The range should be anywhere from 7-8 (native, depending on the existence of a range upgrade or not) to 9-10 (with the upgrade). - Decrease production time. - Decrease mobility (remove cliffwalking, decrease movement speed). This is a piece of artillery and in some situations it arrives faster than regular "infantry" ... Besides, it would promote Prism usage (which, by the way, should not get this weird distance lifting, there's a reason dropships have to be close to the target they pick...). - Decrease attack speed. - Change damage accordingly; of course it should still slaughter low hit points targets such as workers, Marines, Zerglings and keep a good efficiency against medium hit point targets such as Marauders, Roaches, etc. - Change the form of the splash. Instead of a line that naturally spouses the enemy concave, promoting a-move instead of focusing (micro), change it to a normal impact like the Siege Tank or the Reaver so that hitting clumps is rewarded. - Lose the vulnerability to anti-air. The shift focus contest between Corruptors/Vikings and Stalkers to determine how long Colossi are going to live is insanely bland. Not only this allows a much needed reworking of Corruptors and Vikings, but it also breaks the fact the same anti-air simultaneously deals with Prisms and Colossi and Carriers. - Thanks to this we can decrease hit points now that they're no longer vulnerable to medium or long distance anti-air. Artillery should be fragile. - Of course it would no longer hover over other units (end of the aesthetically horrible cluster of units) nor give air vision, since it's no longer consider an air unit. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
If you can declare bullshit, bad, uninteresting coinflips an important part of Starcraft then I want to declare this kind of stuff an important part of starcraft too: At least in those games you need skill not luck to win. | ||
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Meavis
Netherlands1300 Posts
On November 11 2014 20:21 The_Templar wrote: The range was reduced from 9 to 8 iirc oh wow, if thats true it looks like I'm doing DK's work + Show Spoiler + On September 25 2014 23:17 Meavis wrote: here's something I want to see some discussion around: Complaint Problem: Colossus/templar ball is to strong in TvP lategame. Solution: Reduce thermal lance from +3 to +2 range Side Effects: gives bio more room to enclose before the first hits, reducing the scaling effect on the deathball. ghosts have some more breathing room to snipe/emp before getting melted colossus is slightly weaker ofcourse kiting potential on colossus is lowered possible imbalance in PvZ as colossus have to get closer to vipers | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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KeksX
Germany3634 Posts
I think it won't disappear with 12 starting workers btw, I just think it will look different. You can still proxy stuff and it will have similar effect. If we're talking about reacting properly to greedy builds, I'm pretty sure that can still be done. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
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royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
On November 11 2014 21:18 Daralii wrote: Also indirectly nerfed by the cyclone's existence. Run in, lockon, run out and the colossus is probably dead if the toss doesn't load it into a prism. Huh didn't even consider that. I might even like the cyclone now. | ||
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KeksX
Germany3634 Posts
On November 11 2014 21:40 TheDwf wrote: What's above all bad with the 12 worker change is how it will further speed up economy growth if the mining efficiency remains unchanged. I'm certainly not looking forward to the day players sit at 130 supply at 10 or 11 minutes and are max by 12 or 13. The game needs to be slowed down there, not further accelerated. Honest question: Why? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 11 2014 21:26 SatedSC2 wrote: NaNiwa knew that JD wanted to go 3 Hatch Before Pool so he played on that. He did the same thing to HyuN at another tournament for the same reason. sOs knew that herO wasn't scouting properly so he played on that. It's an important part of punishing player's who are known to be greedy. If you don't find mindgames interesting then fair enough, but waiting an extra minute for those of us who do can't be that bad. The game you posted has nothing to do with mindgames or coinflips so I don't really know why you're posting it. The problems that the SH has have nothing to do with proxy Gateways or 11/11 Rax or 6 Pools or whatever else you can do before 10 supply (and there are a lot of builds you can do before 10 supply yet alone 12). The problem with knowing the future is that it isn't possible. You can only gamble on it. | ||
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KeksX
Germany3634 Posts
On November 11 2014 21:46 Big J wrote: The problem with knowing the future is that it isn't possible. You can only gamble on it. OR you can try to read your opponent and make the gamble a "as long as I read him right, it's gonna work". Which is exactly what makes it exciting. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
Why? Because SC2 suffers from the "1 big deathball fight decides the game" syndrome, and the quicker the players are able to get a complete 3-bases economy, the quicker they'll max on a big deathball. If you slow down the game, you decrease the efficiency of getting a big deathball because you are more vulnerable for a longer period of time (or if you prefer, the part of the game when you have few units is longer) which makes more room for skirmishes, small fights, harass, and actual in-battle micro. At least that's how I see it personally edit : Also that's probably the best post/suggestion in this thread. Make the colossus the unit it deserves to be please On November 11 2014 21:19 TheDwf wrote: That's nice, but instead of nerfing they should completely remake it. The Colossus suffers from everything that is wrong in SC2: supply inflation, anticonceptual unit (= artillery without the weaknesses of an artillery), poor microability, horrible interactions, exponential growth of firepower leading to deathball play... - Supply should be reduced from 6 to 4. - Cost should be decreased (e. g. 200/150); same for the range upgrade if it's kept (100/100 or 150/150). The range should be anywhere from 7-8 (native, depending on the existence of a range upgrade or not) to 9-10 (with the upgrade). - Decrease production time. - Decrease mobility (remove cliffwalking, decrease movement speed). This is a piece of artillery and in some situations it arrives faster than regular "infantry" ... Besides, it would promote Prism usage (which, by the way, should not get this weird distance lifting, there's a reason dropships have to be close to the target they pick...). - Decrease attack speed. - Change damage accordingly; of course it should still slaughter low hit points targets such as workers, Marines, Zerglings and keep a good efficiency against medium hit point targets such as Marauders, Roaches, etc. - Change the form of the splash. Instead of a line that naturally spouses the enemy concave, promoting a-move instead of focusing (micro), change it to a normal impact like the Siege Tank or the Reaver so that hitting clumps is rewarded. - Lose the vulnerability to anti-air. The shift focus contest between Corruptors/Vikings and Stalkers to determine how long Colossi are going to live is insanely bland. Not only this allows a much needed reworking of Corruptors and Vikings, but it also breaks the fact the same anti-air simultaneously deals with Prisms and Colossi and Carriers. - Thanks to this we can decrease hit points now that they're no longer vulnerable to medium or long distance anti-air. Artillery should be fragile. - Of course it would no longer hover over other units (end of the aesthetically horrible cluster of units) nor give air vision, since it's no longer consider an air unit. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On November 11 2014 06:59 royalroadweed wrote: It seems that the marauder has been changed too. Nathanias said on his stream that they now have reduced damage but hit twice. It also does less damage to armored. He said they're much better at breaking through PPDs now but zealots are harder to kill. PPD = Point Defense Drone? That seems lame, I like that PDDs are super strong vs marauders.... marauders are a horribly boring unit. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12023 Posts
On November 11 2014 21:56 OtherWorld wrote: Why? Because SC2 suffers from the "1 big deathball fight decides the game" syndrome, and the quicker the players are able to get a complete 3-bases economy, the quicker they'll max on a big deathball. If you slow down the game, you decrease the efficiency of getting a big deathball because you are more vulnerable for a longer period of time (or if you prefer, the part of the game when you have few units is longer) which makes more room for skirmishes, small fights, harass, and actual in-battle micro. At least that's how I see it personally edit : Also that's probably the best post/suggestion in this thread. Make the colossus the unit it deserves to be please People max in Broodwar at pro level when they don't get touched at about 13-14 minutes, maybe even quicker depending on their build. The problem with SC2 isn't the fact people max out too quickly, it's just nobody attacks each other outside off harassment during that time before max so all that happens is both people get to max with a big ball and the way the mechanics of building work in SC2 and the speed of the units/size of the maps if you attack at that point and fail you lose the game. It's what made me stop playing. In BW it is completely unrealistic to expect someone to reach max as quick as I said unless they're turtling/so much better than the other person that they just take 6 bases really quickly and roll them with gateways and that isn't because the games slower, it's because more smaller skirmishes happen and people lose and trade supply more often than in SC2. It also helps that the maps are designed better so you don't sit in a corner, you're forced to move to the opposite corner of the map to expand and you don't have a fourth right next to your third or four bases per corner. | ||
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KeksX
Germany3634 Posts
On November 11 2014 21:56 OtherWorld wrote: Why? Because SC2 suffers from the "1 big deathball fight decides the game" syndrome, and the quicker the players are able to get a complete 3-bases economy, the quicker they'll max on a big deathball. If you slow down the game, you decrease the efficiency of getting a big deathball because you are more vulnerable for a longer period of time (or if you prefer, the part of the game when you have few units is longer) which makes more room for skirmishes, small fights, harass, and actual in-battle micro. At least that's how I see it personally But don't you think that speeding up economic growth would also increase the amount of units you have in early to midgame and thus decreasing the time you spend in lategame(which results in the deathbally play)? Right now a problem I see is that a lot of games are just stalling until you get into lategame and if you try to end the game further, you have to cheese hardcore. With the new units and economic pattern I could see that changing since you can force game-ending engagements or one that look like them much sooner and thus more fighting pre-lategame. @Sated: Well but what kind of play are we talking about? I can see 2 rax still being viable; while protoss and zerg might have stuff faster, terran will also have more stuff to attack with. 2 gate can still be pretty fast compared to the opponent unless people start to build spawning pools right away which would bring them to a major disadvantage compared to someone who goes for eco first(so mindgame) And proxy hatcheries... well they were always kinda weirdish and that won't change. Thats all assuming though, no idea how it actually plays out in the end since I didn't test it. | ||
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BaronVonOwn
299 Posts
More importantly I don't think it will hurt game balance. Clearly all the early cheeses like proxy rax, cannon rush, 6 pools etc. are done. As a zerg player who frequently goes overpool in zvp to punish greedy protosses, I could see this as a problem. However the addition of the ravager, lurker, and flying locusts means the other races can no longer be completely safe once they get their wall up so I'm actually happy with the changes. I think these new units actually open up new early cheese opportunities even though "omg zerg rush" is effectively a dead strat. It was already on life support anyway. | ||
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-NegativeZero-
United States2142 Posts
On November 11 2014 21:58 Liquid`Jinro wrote: PPD = Point Defense Drone? That seems lame, I like that PDDs are super strong vs marauders.... marauders are a horribly boring unit. If it's true the reduced damage vs. armored is huge, this is an indirect buff to both stalkers and roaches vs. bio. It makes sense that gateway units need a buff due to the warpgate nerfs, but maybe this is how they're going about it. | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On November 11 2014 22:02 KeksX wrote: But don't you think that speeding up economic growth would also increase the amount of units you have in early to midgame and thus decreasing the time you spend in lategame(which results in the deathbally play)? Right now a problem I see is that a lot of games are just stalling until you get into lategame and if you try to end the game further, you have to cheese hardcore. With the new units and economic pattern I could see that changing since you can force game-ending engagements or one that look like them much sooner and thus more fighting pre-lategame. I don't think so tbh. I feel that in the first six months/the first year, we will probably see more action in the midgame due to the economic and unit changes (and it's not even sure, keep in mind that the real LotV will changed a lot compared to what we saw). I mean, it's true that if you watch the showmatches from BlizzCon, I don't think one team spent more than 3/4 minutes at 200/200 over the course of the game. But people will find ways to defend the harass efficiently, the "it's new, I don't know how to play against it" factor will disappear, and the deathball problem will come back even stronger. | ||
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KeksX
Germany3634 Posts
On November 11 2014 22:08 OtherWorld wrote: But people will find ways to defend the harass efficiently, the "it's new, I don't know how to play against it" factor will disappear, and the deathball problem will come back even stronger. This is why we have to design units in a way that this will never be truly the case. I think thats what made BW for me. You could say "Yeah I totally know how to beat X", but then someone comes who's doing X, but better and you're all like "shit what do?!". In SC2, if someone goes roaches and you build marauders, you should be fine. There's nothing much you can do wrong except not building enough of them. Seeing stuff like the Ravagar, I think that doesn't apply to that unit. What do you build against them? If we stick with the example above and you go purely marauder, unless you micro them better than the zerg micros the Ravagar shots, you can still lose against that. It becomes a situation of "who utilizes it better?" and not just "well did you build enough of them?". Microp opportunities on both sides just prevents this kind of boring play. Look at TvZ, it's the reason people love it. (Keep in mind that this is just a hypothesis, I have no idea if Ravagers would actually work against Marauders. I just want to describe my idea on how to fix the problem you mentioned) | ||
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