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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On September 03 2014 03:20 viperattack999 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2014 03:13 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 02:54 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 02:45 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 01:25 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 01:02 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 03 2014 00:38 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 00:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 02 2014 23:39 opisska wrote:On September 02 2014 23:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:
[quote]
It isn't only about winning a tournament. You can (theoretically) be the best player in the wolrd with a 90% winrate overall and never win a single tournament. Would you say this player doesn't deserve to be number one regardless? Sure I would. This game is played in tournaments. Winning them (or, in general, placing as high as possible) is the sole point of the competition. That's where you get money, that's where you get recognition. All the other metrics such as winrates, various "mathematically sophisticated" rankings and whatnot are just half made up by bored fans with nothing better to do and half excuses by people who are unhappy with actual tournament results - and, admittedly also slightly useful, but also often vastly misleading, as a tool to navigate our complex world with more than one tournament. It is the same as with the arguments like "he looked so dominant in the games". That's not how SC2 works. This is not ice skating, you don't get points for style from a biased jury. You either win or lose and it is completely irrelevant how that happened (unless you cheated, of course). I hate the "everybody is a winner in some way" attitude. If you lose, you lose, there is no redemption - that's the beauty of true competition. Well yeah i don't agree with that at all. If some player would manage to get a ridicoulus win% but would never (or rarely, whatever) win a tournament he still would be the best imo. Constistency > a lucky run. Obviously this example is totally unrealistic, but i think it gets the point across. Then why even have tournaments? Why have playoffs at all in any sport? Just for the fans? I am not quite sure what you are trying to say. Even in my example you obviously need tournaments, otherwise there is no competition and no stats  And yeah i never understood having playoffs with a league format, but whatever americans... The only way to settle matters is have them play off in a best-of. It settles everything which is why tournaments exist. We don't have to guess who the best player is, we just watched it. That only determines which of the players is best in head-to-head. You can lose the head-to-head and still be the better player in the two remaining match-ups (and perhaps even against other players in the same match-up). Head-to-head and overall skill are two different things in a game like Starcraft and need to be kept apart. So if Flash and Rain playoff in a best of, the result is not indicative of who the best player is? I must be on mars... Flash beats Rain, loses to Solar, Bbyong, and sOs. Rain loses to Flash, beats Solar, Bbyong and sOs. Who is the best player? Whoever won the damn tournament.
Both were eliminated in the Ro4. Come on, don't dodge. Who's better?
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On September 03 2014 03:21 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2014 03:20 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:13 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 02:54 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 02:45 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 01:25 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 01:02 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 03 2014 00:38 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 00:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 02 2014 23:39 opisska wrote:
[quote]
Sure I would. This game is played in tournaments. Winning them (or, in general, placing as high as possible) is the sole point of the competition. That's where you get money, that's where you get recognition. All the other metrics such as winrates, various "mathematically sophisticated" rankings and whatnot are just half made up by bored fans with nothing better to do and half excuses by people who are unhappy with actual tournament results - and, admittedly also slightly useful, but also often vastly misleading, as a tool to navigate our complex world with more than one tournament.
It is the same as with the arguments like "he looked so dominant in the games". That's not how SC2 works. This is not ice skating, you don't get points for style from a biased jury. You either win or lose and it is completely irrelevant how that happened (unless you cheated, of course). I hate the "everybody is a winner in some way" attitude. If you lose, you lose, there is no redemption - that's the beauty of true competition. Well yeah i don't agree with that at all. If some player would manage to get a ridicoulus win% but would never (or rarely, whatever) win a tournament he still would be the best imo. Constistency > a lucky run. Obviously this example is totally unrealistic, but i think it gets the point across. Then why even have tournaments? Why have playoffs at all in any sport? Just for the fans? I am not quite sure what you are trying to say. Even in my example you obviously need tournaments, otherwise there is no competition and no stats And yeah i never understood having playoffs with a league format, but whatever americans... The only way to settle matters is have them play off in a best-of. It settles everything which is why tournaments exist. We don't have to guess who the best player is, we just watched it. That only determines which of the players is best in head-to-head. You can lose the head-to-head and still be the better player in the two remaining match-ups (and perhaps even against other players in the same match-up). Head-to-head and overall skill are two different things in a game like Starcraft and need to be kept apart. So if Flash and Rain playoff in a best of, the result is not indicative of who the best player is? I must be on mars... Flash beats Rain, loses to Solar, Bbyong, and sOs. Rain loses to Flash, beats Solar, Bbyong and sOs. Who is the best player? Whoever won the damn tournament. Both were eliminated in the Ro4. Come on, don't dodge. Who's better?
We have to wait till the next tournament and see. Still undecided. Until they play, I don't know. It's just an opinion based on stats. Fortunately there are many opportunities for us to see these guys play vs one another in the future, I won't know who's better until then.
If u want my opinion, I'd say Zest is currently the best player in the world with Flash second, maybe Soo third, then Rain. But the next few months it will all shake itself out anyway. Lets hope they all make it to Blizzcon and i can watch with my popcorn 
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On September 03 2014 03:25 viperattack999 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2014 03:21 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:20 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:13 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 02:54 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 02:45 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 01:25 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 01:02 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 03 2014 00:38 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 00:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:
[quote]
Well yeah i don't agree with that at all. If some player would manage to get a ridicoulus win% but would never (or rarely, whatever) win a tournament he still would be the best imo.
Constistency > a lucky run.
Obviously this example is totally unrealistic, but i think it gets the point across. Then why even have tournaments? Why have playoffs at all in any sport? Just for the fans? I am not quite sure what you are trying to say. Even in my example you obviously need tournaments, otherwise there is no competition and no stats And yeah i never understood having playoffs with a league format, but whatever americans... The only way to settle matters is have them play off in a best-of. It settles everything which is why tournaments exist. We don't have to guess who the best player is, we just watched it. That only determines which of the players is best in head-to-head. You can lose the head-to-head and still be the better player in the two remaining match-ups (and perhaps even against other players in the same match-up). Head-to-head and overall skill are two different things in a game like Starcraft and need to be kept apart. So if Flash and Rain playoff in a best of, the result is not indicative of who the best player is? I must be on mars... Flash beats Rain, loses to Solar, Bbyong, and sOs. Rain loses to Flash, beats Solar, Bbyong and sOs. Who is the best player? Whoever won the damn tournament. Both were eliminated in the Ro4. Come on, don't dodge. Who's better? We have to wait till the next tournament and see. Still undecided. Until they play, I don't know. It's just an opinion based on stats.
I don't understand why you think head-to-head decides which player is better overall. Head-to-head is played in one single match-up with two styles clashing. Some players' styles suck against others' (see Life vs Soulkey, GSL S5 2012 Ro16), that doesn't necessarily the losing player is worse overall, or even in the match-up.
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On September 03 2014 00:02 xelnaga_empire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2014 21:14 Plexa wrote:On September 02 2014 20:15 fenix404 wrote:
flash is 48-13, let's take that in... Here's my opinion on Flashs position. Let's say Snute wins the final game and defeats Flash 3-2. I feel that a lot of people would think that holding the #3 position would be too high and it would be very likely he'd end up lower. Can one map really hold that much influence on his overall strength? I think that would still be the case if he had lost to Taeja or Zest. Interestingly, if you make the assumption he loses one of those series his overall statistics still look mighty impressive. But because he didn't lift the trophy peoples perception of his strength changes. I think that's the issue that's at hand here. Rain/maru have been fairly out of the spotlight in August while Flash's latest accomplishment (and a significant one at that) was literally last weekend. I think that lack of attention is the greatest reason why people have a problem with Flash at 3 and not 1. In reality all three are extremely close at the moment -- to illustrate, maru and flash are 2-2 in the last 5 weeks (2-1 to flash and 1-0 to maru) -- and as such good arguments can be made for any permutation of the three. Lastly let's remember what the power rank is really about; it's about working out a list of players you hope to god aren't in your side of the bracket, the players that make their contemporaries hearts sink when they get paired together, the players who are most likely to win Bo5/Bo7's against anyone else in the world. Results play a significant role in working that stuff out, but that doesn't mean staying out of the spotlight and playing less games for a bit means you're any less dangerous. PowerRank should be based on the last 6 months of performance, with more emphasis towards recent tournament success, but not entirely based on recent tournament success. There is no doubt that during the Ro16 selections, the players would have picked Polt any day over sOs because Polt is easier than sOs (assuming Polt was part of the Ro16 selections). sOs has the highest win rate in Proleague for players that play a significant number of games (ie. he has the top win rate amongst the top 20 played players). Zealously puts Polt at 8 but Polt has only played mediocre against mediocre competition in the last 6 months. If sOs was put in every tournament Polt was put in over the last 6 months, I think sOs would have had more success than Polt. I would even say Solar is better than Polt. For the limited foreign tournaments Solar has played in the last several months, he has performed practically in each tournament he has traveled to. Can't say the same thing about Polt.
We said the same thing about Innovation and he hasn't won anything oversea yet. Would Zest have won Redbull if he were in Polt's bracket? Probably not because Taeja.
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On September 03 2014 03:31 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2014 03:25 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:21 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:20 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:13 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 02:54 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 02:45 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 01:25 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 01:02 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 03 2014 00:38 viperattack999 wrote:
[quote]
Then why even have tournaments? Why have playoffs at all in any sport? Just for the fans? I am not quite sure what you are trying to say. Even in my example you obviously need tournaments, otherwise there is no competition and no stats And yeah i never understood having playoffs with a league format, but whatever americans... The only way to settle matters is have them play off in a best-of. It settles everything which is why tournaments exist. We don't have to guess who the best player is, we just watched it. That only determines which of the players is best in head-to-head. You can lose the head-to-head and still be the better player in the two remaining match-ups (and perhaps even against other players in the same match-up). Head-to-head and overall skill are two different things in a game like Starcraft and need to be kept apart. So if Flash and Rain playoff in a best of, the result is not indicative of who the best player is? I must be on mars... Flash beats Rain, loses to Solar, Bbyong, and sOs. Rain loses to Flash, beats Solar, Bbyong and sOs. Who is the best player? Whoever won the damn tournament. Both were eliminated in the Ro4. Come on, don't dodge. Who's better? We have to wait till the next tournament and see. Still undecided. Until they play, I don't know. It's just an opinion based on stats. I don't understand why you think head-to-head decides which player is better overall. Head-to-head is played in one single match-up with two styles clashing. Some players' styles suck against others' (see Life vs Soulkey, GSL S5 2012 Ro16), that doesn't necessarily the losing player is worse overall, or even in the match-up.
Isn't it entirely the player's fault that he uses a "style" that is weak against certain strategies?
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Austria24422 Posts
On September 03 2014 03:31 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2014 03:25 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:21 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:20 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:13 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 02:54 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 02:45 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 01:25 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 01:02 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 03 2014 00:38 viperattack999 wrote:
[quote]
Then why even have tournaments? Why have playoffs at all in any sport? Just for the fans? I am not quite sure what you are trying to say. Even in my example you obviously need tournaments, otherwise there is no competition and no stats And yeah i never understood having playoffs with a league format, but whatever americans... The only way to settle matters is have them play off in a best-of. It settles everything which is why tournaments exist. We don't have to guess who the best player is, we just watched it. That only determines which of the players is best in head-to-head. You can lose the head-to-head and still be the better player in the two remaining match-ups (and perhaps even against other players in the same match-up). Head-to-head and overall skill are two different things in a game like Starcraft and need to be kept apart. So if Flash and Rain playoff in a best of, the result is not indicative of who the best player is? I must be on mars... Flash beats Rain, loses to Solar, Bbyong, and sOs. Rain loses to Flash, beats Solar, Bbyong and sOs. Who is the best player? Whoever won the damn tournament. Both were eliminated in the Ro4. Come on, don't dodge. Who's better? We have to wait till the next tournament and see. Still undecided. Until they play, I don't know. It's just an opinion based on stats. I don't understand why you think head-to-head decides which player is better overall. Head-to-head is played in one single match-up with two styles clashing. Some players' styles suck against others' (see Life vs Soulkey, GSL S5 2012 Ro16), that doesn't necessarily the losing player is worse overall, or even in the match-up.
HerO is 3-0 vs herO. Head to head ftw.
There's a ton of examples like this. Remember Shine's crazy record against Soulkey?
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On September 03 2014 03:31 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2014 03:25 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:21 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:20 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:13 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 02:54 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 02:45 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 01:25 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 01:02 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 03 2014 00:38 viperattack999 wrote:
[quote]
Then why even have tournaments? Why have playoffs at all in any sport? Just for the fans? I am not quite sure what you are trying to say. Even in my example you obviously need tournaments, otherwise there is no competition and no stats And yeah i never understood having playoffs with a league format, but whatever americans... The only way to settle matters is have them play off in a best-of. It settles everything which is why tournaments exist. We don't have to guess who the best player is, we just watched it. That only determines which of the players is best in head-to-head. You can lose the head-to-head and still be the better player in the two remaining match-ups (and perhaps even against other players in the same match-up). Head-to-head and overall skill are two different things in a game like Starcraft and need to be kept apart. So if Flash and Rain playoff in a best of, the result is not indicative of who the best player is? I must be on mars... Flash beats Rain, loses to Solar, Bbyong, and sOs. Rain loses to Flash, beats Solar, Bbyong and sOs. Who is the best player? Whoever won the damn tournament. Both were eliminated in the Ro4. Come on, don't dodge. Who's better? We have to wait till the next tournament and see. Still undecided. Until they play, I don't know. It's just an opinion based on stats. I don't understand why you think head-to-head decides which player is better overall. Head-to-head is played in one single match-up with two styles clashing. Some players' styles suck against others' (see Life vs Soulkey, GSL S5 2012 Ro16), that doesn't necessarily the losing player is worse overall, or even in the match-up.
Because it's the purest form of competition we have. A player can be a beast in the team house, even in on-line tournaments, (example: DonRaeGoo before he made a name in GSL), but proving yourself on the big stage is different. It's where champions are made. Not on a calculator. There's no accounting for the pressure of being on stage where its all on the line. No statistics in the world can prepare a player for that.
We're not computers. We're human. And coping under pressure is a big part of being a champion. Champions are not decided on paper. The best mechanics in the world don't matter a row of beans if your too nervous to make the tough decisions under pressure.
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Austria24422 Posts
On September 03 2014 03:41 viperattack999 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2014 03:31 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:25 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:21 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:20 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:13 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 02:54 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 02:45 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 01:25 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 01:02 The_Red_Viper wrote:[quote] I am not quite sure what you are trying to say. Even in my example you obviously need tournaments, otherwise there is no competition and no stats And yeah i never understood having playoffs with a league format, but whatever americans... The only way to settle matters is have them play off in a best-of. It settles everything which is why tournaments exist. We don't have to guess who the best player is, we just watched it. That only determines which of the players is best in head-to-head. You can lose the head-to-head and still be the better player in the two remaining match-ups (and perhaps even against other players in the same match-up). Head-to-head and overall skill are two different things in a game like Starcraft and need to be kept apart. So if Flash and Rain playoff in a best of, the result is not indicative of who the best player is? I must be on mars... Flash beats Rain, loses to Solar, Bbyong, and sOs. Rain loses to Flash, beats Solar, Bbyong and sOs. Who is the best player? Whoever won the damn tournament. Both were eliminated in the Ro4. Come on, don't dodge. Who's better? We have to wait till the next tournament and see. Still undecided. Until they play, I don't know. It's just an opinion based on stats. I don't understand why you think head-to-head decides which player is better overall. Head-to-head is played in one single match-up with two styles clashing. Some players' styles suck against others' (see Life vs Soulkey, GSL S5 2012 Ro16), that doesn't necessarily the losing player is worse overall, or even in the match-up. Because it's the purest form of competition we have. A player can be a beast in the team house, even in on-line tournaments, (example: DonRaeGoo before he made a name in GSL), but proving yourself on the big stage is different. It's where champions are made. Not on a calculator. There's no accounting for the pressure of being on stage where its all on the line. No statistics in the world can prepare a player for that. We're not computers. We're human. And coping under pressure is a big part of being a champion. Champions are not decided on paper.
Damn, Rain must be a god for winning an OSL, nailing SKT's ace matches and going undefeated through to Proleague playoffs!
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On September 03 2014 03:41 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2014 03:31 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:25 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:21 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:20 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:13 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 02:54 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 02:45 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 01:25 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 01:02 The_Red_Viper wrote:[quote] I am not quite sure what you are trying to say. Even in my example you obviously need tournaments, otherwise there is no competition and no stats And yeah i never understood having playoffs with a league format, but whatever americans... The only way to settle matters is have them play off in a best-of. It settles everything which is why tournaments exist. We don't have to guess who the best player is, we just watched it. That only determines which of the players is best in head-to-head. You can lose the head-to-head and still be the better player in the two remaining match-ups (and perhaps even against other players in the same match-up). Head-to-head and overall skill are two different things in a game like Starcraft and need to be kept apart. So if Flash and Rain playoff in a best of, the result is not indicative of who the best player is? I must be on mars... Flash beats Rain, loses to Solar, Bbyong, and sOs. Rain loses to Flash, beats Solar, Bbyong and sOs. Who is the best player? Whoever won the damn tournament. Both were eliminated in the Ro4. Come on, don't dodge. Who's better? We have to wait till the next tournament and see. Still undecided. Until they play, I don't know. It's just an opinion based on stats. I don't understand why you think head-to-head decides which player is better overall. Head-to-head is played in one single match-up with two styles clashing. Some players' styles suck against others' (see Life vs Soulkey, GSL S5 2012 Ro16), that doesn't necessarily the losing player is worse overall, or even in the match-up. Isn't it entirely the player's fault that he uses a "style" that is weak against certain strategies?
Sure, but that doesn't mean Shine is a better player than Soulkey.
On September 03 2014 03:41 viperattack999 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2014 03:31 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:25 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:21 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:20 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:13 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 02:54 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 02:45 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 01:25 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 01:02 The_Red_Viper wrote:[quote] I am not quite sure what you are trying to say. Even in my example you obviously need tournaments, otherwise there is no competition and no stats And yeah i never understood having playoffs with a league format, but whatever americans... The only way to settle matters is have them play off in a best-of. It settles everything which is why tournaments exist. We don't have to guess who the best player is, we just watched it. That only determines which of the players is best in head-to-head. You can lose the head-to-head and still be the better player in the two remaining match-ups (and perhaps even against other players in the same match-up). Head-to-head and overall skill are two different things in a game like Starcraft and need to be kept apart. So if Flash and Rain playoff in a best of, the result is not indicative of who the best player is? I must be on mars... Flash beats Rain, loses to Solar, Bbyong, and sOs. Rain loses to Flash, beats Solar, Bbyong and sOs. Who is the best player? Whoever won the damn tournament. Both were eliminated in the Ro4. Come on, don't dodge. Who's better? We have to wait till the next tournament and see. Still undecided. Until they play, I don't know. It's just an opinion based on stats. I don't understand why you think head-to-head decides which player is better overall. Head-to-head is played in one single match-up with two styles clashing. Some players' styles suck against others' (see Life vs Soulkey, GSL S5 2012 Ro16), that doesn't necessarily the losing player is worse overall, or even in the match-up. Because it's the purest form of competition we have. A player can be a beast in the team house, even in on-line tournaments, (example: DonRaeGoo before he made a name in GSL), but proving yourself on the big stage is different. It's where champions are made. Not on a calculator. There's no accounting for the pressure of being on stage where its all on the line. No statistics in the world can prepare a player for that. We're not computers. We're human. And coping under pressure is a big part of being a champion. Champions are not decided on paper. The best mechanics in the world don't matter a row of beans if your too nervous to make the tough decisions under pressure.
I'm not even sure what you're saying anymore. You started by saying that head-to-head decides who the best player is, but now you're talking about something else. Of course we're human and of course coping with pressure is an important part of winning tournaments, but that still doesn't mean that player A beating player B in head-to-head makes player A better than player B versus players C, D, E and so on. Perhaps it might in some sports (Tennis, I guess), but with how different styles and match-ups are in SC2, there is no way that beating one player makes you better than that player in every aspect.
That's what the Power Rank is. Not "Which player would beat the next player head-to-head", but "Which player would beat the most players on a regular basis". Championships and ace matches play an important role, but they do not decide everything.
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On September 03 2014 03:48 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2014 03:41 opisska wrote:On September 03 2014 03:31 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:25 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:21 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:20 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:13 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 02:54 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 02:45 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 01:25 viperattack999 wrote:
[quote]
The only way to settle matters is have them play off in a best-of. It settles everything which is why tournaments exist. We don't have to guess who the best player is, we just watched it.
That only determines which of the players is best in head-to-head. You can lose the head-to-head and still be the better player in the two remaining match-ups (and perhaps even against other players in the same match-up). Head-to-head and overall skill are two different things in a game like Starcraft and need to be kept apart. So if Flash and Rain playoff in a best of, the result is not indicative of who the best player is? I must be on mars... Flash beats Rain, loses to Solar, Bbyong, and sOs. Rain loses to Flash, beats Solar, Bbyong and sOs. Who is the best player? Whoever won the damn tournament. Both were eliminated in the Ro4. Come on, don't dodge. Who's better? We have to wait till the next tournament and see. Still undecided. Until they play, I don't know. It's just an opinion based on stats. I don't understand why you think head-to-head decides which player is better overall. Head-to-head is played in one single match-up with two styles clashing. Some players' styles suck against others' (see Life vs Soulkey, GSL S5 2012 Ro16), that doesn't necessarily the losing player is worse overall, or even in the match-up. Isn't it entirely the player's fault that he uses a "style" that is weak against certain strategies? Sure, but that doesn't mean Shine is a better player than Soulkey. Show nested quote +On September 03 2014 03:41 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:31 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:25 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:21 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:20 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:13 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 02:54 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 02:45 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 01:25 viperattack999 wrote:
[quote]
The only way to settle matters is have them play off in a best-of. It settles everything which is why tournaments exist. We don't have to guess who the best player is, we just watched it.
That only determines which of the players is best in head-to-head. You can lose the head-to-head and still be the better player in the two remaining match-ups (and perhaps even against other players in the same match-up). Head-to-head and overall skill are two different things in a game like Starcraft and need to be kept apart. So if Flash and Rain playoff in a best of, the result is not indicative of who the best player is? I must be on mars... Flash beats Rain, loses to Solar, Bbyong, and sOs. Rain loses to Flash, beats Solar, Bbyong and sOs. Who is the best player? Whoever won the damn tournament. Both were eliminated in the Ro4. Come on, don't dodge. Who's better? We have to wait till the next tournament and see. Still undecided. Until they play, I don't know. It's just an opinion based on stats. I don't understand why you think head-to-head decides which player is better overall. Head-to-head is played in one single match-up with two styles clashing. Some players' styles suck against others' (see Life vs Soulkey, GSL S5 2012 Ro16), that doesn't necessarily the losing player is worse overall, or even in the match-up. Because it's the purest form of competition we have. A player can be a beast in the team house, even in on-line tournaments, (example: DonRaeGoo before he made a name in GSL), but proving yourself on the big stage is different. It's where champions are made. Not on a calculator. There's no accounting for the pressure of being on stage where its all on the line. No statistics in the world can prepare a player for that. We're not computers. We're human. And coping under pressure is a big part of being a champion. Champions are not decided on paper. The best mechanics in the world don't matter a row of beans if your too nervous to make the tough decisions under pressure. I'm not even sure what you're saying anymore. You started by saying that head-to-head decides who the best player is, but now you're talking about something else. Of course we're human and of course coping with pressure is an important part of winning tournaments, but that still doesn't mean that player A beating player B in head-to-head makes player A better than player B versus players C, D, E and so on. Perhaps it might in some sports (Tennis, I guess), but with how different styles and match-ups are in SC2, there is no way that beating one player makes you better than that player in every aspect. That's what the Power Rank is. Not "Which player would beat the next player head-to-head", but "Which player would beat the most players on a regular basis".
I don't know what to say. Championships matter, statistics are nice to look at, and are interesting, but to say stats trump winning tournaments ...
I have no answer to that. I don't care who wins the most games on a regular basis. Some games are way more important than others. Game 7 of the GSL finals is worth 100 or a thousand best of three qualifying matches. All games are not created equal.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On September 03 2014 04:03 viperattack999 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2014 03:48 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:41 opisska wrote:On September 03 2014 03:31 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:25 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:21 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:20 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:13 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 02:54 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 02:45 Zealously wrote:
[quote]
That only determines which of the players is best in head-to-head. You can lose the head-to-head and still be the better player in the two remaining match-ups (and perhaps even against other players in the same match-up). Head-to-head and overall skill are two different things in a game like Starcraft and need to be kept apart. So if Flash and Rain playoff in a best of, the result is not indicative of who the best player is? I must be on mars... Flash beats Rain, loses to Solar, Bbyong, and sOs. Rain loses to Flash, beats Solar, Bbyong and sOs. Who is the best player? Whoever won the damn tournament. Both were eliminated in the Ro4. Come on, don't dodge. Who's better? We have to wait till the next tournament and see. Still undecided. Until they play, I don't know. It's just an opinion based on stats. I don't understand why you think head-to-head decides which player is better overall. Head-to-head is played in one single match-up with two styles clashing. Some players' styles suck against others' (see Life vs Soulkey, GSL S5 2012 Ro16), that doesn't necessarily the losing player is worse overall, or even in the match-up. Isn't it entirely the player's fault that he uses a "style" that is weak against certain strategies? Sure, but that doesn't mean Shine is a better player than Soulkey. On September 03 2014 03:41 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:31 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:25 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:21 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:20 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:13 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 02:54 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 02:45 Zealously wrote:
[quote]
That only determines which of the players is best in head-to-head. You can lose the head-to-head and still be the better player in the two remaining match-ups (and perhaps even against other players in the same match-up). Head-to-head and overall skill are two different things in a game like Starcraft and need to be kept apart. So if Flash and Rain playoff in a best of, the result is not indicative of who the best player is? I must be on mars... Flash beats Rain, loses to Solar, Bbyong, and sOs. Rain loses to Flash, beats Solar, Bbyong and sOs. Who is the best player? Whoever won the damn tournament. Both were eliminated in the Ro4. Come on, don't dodge. Who's better? We have to wait till the next tournament and see. Still undecided. Until they play, I don't know. It's just an opinion based on stats. I don't understand why you think head-to-head decides which player is better overall. Head-to-head is played in one single match-up with two styles clashing. Some players' styles suck against others' (see Life vs Soulkey, GSL S5 2012 Ro16), that doesn't necessarily the losing player is worse overall, or even in the match-up. Because it's the purest form of competition we have. A player can be a beast in the team house, even in on-line tournaments, (example: DonRaeGoo before he made a name in GSL), but proving yourself on the big stage is different. It's where champions are made. Not on a calculator. There's no accounting for the pressure of being on stage where its all on the line. No statistics in the world can prepare a player for that. We're not computers. We're human. And coping under pressure is a big part of being a champion. Champions are not decided on paper. The best mechanics in the world don't matter a row of beans if your too nervous to make the tough decisions under pressure. I'm not even sure what you're saying anymore. You started by saying that head-to-head decides who the best player is, but now you're talking about something else. Of course we're human and of course coping with pressure is an important part of winning tournaments, but that still doesn't mean that player A beating player B in head-to-head makes player A better than player B versus players C, D, E and so on. Perhaps it might in some sports (Tennis, I guess), but with how different styles and match-ups are in SC2, there is no way that beating one player makes you better than that player in every aspect. That's what the Power Rank is. Not "Which player would beat the next player head-to-head", but "Which player would beat the most players on a regular basis". I don't know what to say. Championships matter, statistics are nice to look at, and are interesting, but to say stats trump winning tournaments ... I have no answer to that.
It's not stats. "Number of tournament wins" is also a statistic. What I'm talking about is skill. How good is a player? How well can he play and which players can he beat? Surely you see that winning an easy tournament is not the same as reaching the Ro4 in an extremely stacked tournament, and that the second is a greater achievement - in terms of difficulty - than the first?
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On September 03 2014 04:08 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2014 04:03 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:48 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:41 opisska wrote:On September 03 2014 03:31 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:25 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:21 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:20 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:13 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 02:54 viperattack999 wrote:
[quote]
So if Flash and Rain playoff in a best of, the result is not indicative of who the best player is?
I must be on mars... Flash beats Rain, loses to Solar, Bbyong, and sOs. Rain loses to Flash, beats Solar, Bbyong and sOs. Who is the best player? Whoever won the damn tournament. Both were eliminated in the Ro4. Come on, don't dodge. Who's better? We have to wait till the next tournament and see. Still undecided. Until they play, I don't know. It's just an opinion based on stats. I don't understand why you think head-to-head decides which player is better overall. Head-to-head is played in one single match-up with two styles clashing. Some players' styles suck against others' (see Life vs Soulkey, GSL S5 2012 Ro16), that doesn't necessarily the losing player is worse overall, or even in the match-up. Isn't it entirely the player's fault that he uses a "style" that is weak against certain strategies? Sure, but that doesn't mean Shine is a better player than Soulkey. On September 03 2014 03:41 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:31 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:25 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:21 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:20 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:13 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 02:54 viperattack999 wrote:
[quote]
So if Flash and Rain playoff in a best of, the result is not indicative of who the best player is?
I must be on mars... Flash beats Rain, loses to Solar, Bbyong, and sOs. Rain loses to Flash, beats Solar, Bbyong and sOs. Who is the best player? Whoever won the damn tournament. Both were eliminated in the Ro4. Come on, don't dodge. Who's better? We have to wait till the next tournament and see. Still undecided. Until they play, I don't know. It's just an opinion based on stats. I don't understand why you think head-to-head decides which player is better overall. Head-to-head is played in one single match-up with two styles clashing. Some players' styles suck against others' (see Life vs Soulkey, GSL S5 2012 Ro16), that doesn't necessarily the losing player is worse overall, or even in the match-up. Because it's the purest form of competition we have. A player can be a beast in the team house, even in on-line tournaments, (example: DonRaeGoo before he made a name in GSL), but proving yourself on the big stage is different. It's where champions are made. Not on a calculator. There's no accounting for the pressure of being on stage where its all on the line. No statistics in the world can prepare a player for that. We're not computers. We're human. And coping under pressure is a big part of being a champion. Champions are not decided on paper. The best mechanics in the world don't matter a row of beans if your too nervous to make the tough decisions under pressure. I'm not even sure what you're saying anymore. You started by saying that head-to-head decides who the best player is, but now you're talking about something else. Of course we're human and of course coping with pressure is an important part of winning tournaments, but that still doesn't mean that player A beating player B in head-to-head makes player A better than player B versus players C, D, E and so on. Perhaps it might in some sports (Tennis, I guess), but with how different styles and match-ups are in SC2, there is no way that beating one player makes you better than that player in every aspect. That's what the Power Rank is. Not "Which player would beat the next player head-to-head", but "Which player would beat the most players on a regular basis". I don't know what to say. Championships matter, statistics are nice to look at, and are interesting, but to say stats trump winning tournaments ... I have no answer to that. It's not stats. "Number of tournament wins" is also a statistic. What I'm talking about is skill. How good is a player? How well can he play and which players can he beat? Surely you see that winning an easy tournament is not the same as reaching the Ro4 in an extremely stacked tournament, and that the second is a greater achievement - in terms of difficulty - than the first?
Heres my point. If Flash beats rain in two best of three qualifiers, 2-1. Then Rain beats Flash in the GSL finals 4-2.
Statistically they're 6-6 versus each other. Aligulac would say they are equal. But they aren't even close. Rain is way way ahead because he won the GSL. Flash didn't. At the end of the day the stats don't tell the story, the title does. The title means far more than the stats.
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On September 03 2014 04:08 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2014 04:03 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:48 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:41 opisska wrote:On September 03 2014 03:31 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:25 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:21 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:20 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:13 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 02:54 viperattack999 wrote:
[quote]
So if Flash and Rain playoff in a best of, the result is not indicative of who the best player is?
I must be on mars... Flash beats Rain, loses to Solar, Bbyong, and sOs. Rain loses to Flash, beats Solar, Bbyong and sOs. Who is the best player? Whoever won the damn tournament. Both were eliminated in the Ro4. Come on, don't dodge. Who's better? We have to wait till the next tournament and see. Still undecided. Until they play, I don't know. It's just an opinion based on stats. I don't understand why you think head-to-head decides which player is better overall. Head-to-head is played in one single match-up with two styles clashing. Some players' styles suck against others' (see Life vs Soulkey, GSL S5 2012 Ro16), that doesn't necessarily the losing player is worse overall, or even in the match-up. Isn't it entirely the player's fault that he uses a "style" that is weak against certain strategies? Sure, but that doesn't mean Shine is a better player than Soulkey. On September 03 2014 03:41 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:31 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:25 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:21 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:20 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:13 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 02:54 viperattack999 wrote:
[quote]
So if Flash and Rain playoff in a best of, the result is not indicative of who the best player is?
I must be on mars... Flash beats Rain, loses to Solar, Bbyong, and sOs. Rain loses to Flash, beats Solar, Bbyong and sOs. Who is the best player? Whoever won the damn tournament. Both were eliminated in the Ro4. Come on, don't dodge. Who's better? We have to wait till the next tournament and see. Still undecided. Until they play, I don't know. It's just an opinion based on stats. I don't understand why you think head-to-head decides which player is better overall. Head-to-head is played in one single match-up with two styles clashing. Some players' styles suck against others' (see Life vs Soulkey, GSL S5 2012 Ro16), that doesn't necessarily the losing player is worse overall, or even in the match-up. Because it's the purest form of competition we have. A player can be a beast in the team house, even in on-line tournaments, (example: DonRaeGoo before he made a name in GSL), but proving yourself on the big stage is different. It's where champions are made. Not on a calculator. There's no accounting for the pressure of being on stage where its all on the line. No statistics in the world can prepare a player for that. We're not computers. We're human. And coping under pressure is a big part of being a champion. Champions are not decided on paper. The best mechanics in the world don't matter a row of beans if your too nervous to make the tough decisions under pressure. I'm not even sure what you're saying anymore. You started by saying that head-to-head decides who the best player is, but now you're talking about something else. Of course we're human and of course coping with pressure is an important part of winning tournaments, but that still doesn't mean that player A beating player B in head-to-head makes player A better than player B versus players C, D, E and so on. Perhaps it might in some sports (Tennis, I guess), but with how different styles and match-ups are in SC2, there is no way that beating one player makes you better than that player in every aspect. That's what the Power Rank is. Not "Which player would beat the next player head-to-head", but "Which player would beat the most players on a regular basis". I don't know what to say. Championships matter, statistics are nice to look at, and are interesting, but to say stats trump winning tournaments ... I have no answer to that. It's not stats. "Number of tournament wins" is also a statistic. What I'm talking about is skill. How good is a player? How well can he play and which players can he beat? Surely you see that winning an easy tournament is not the same as reaching the Ro4 in an extremely stacked tournament, and that the second is a greater achievement - in terms of difficulty - than the first?
While i agree with pretty much everything you said so far, what do you mean with "skill" ?
The only real measurement of skill we have is winning/losing, if you want to compare players they obviously should face the same competition.
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On September 03 2014 04:19 viperattack999 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2014 04:08 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 04:03 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:48 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:41 opisska wrote:On September 03 2014 03:31 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:25 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:21 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:20 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:13 Zealously wrote:
[quote]
Flash beats Rain, loses to Solar, Bbyong, and sOs.
Rain loses to Flash, beats Solar, Bbyong and sOs.
Who is the best player? Whoever won the damn tournament. Both were eliminated in the Ro4. Come on, don't dodge. Who's better? We have to wait till the next tournament and see. Still undecided. Until they play, I don't know. It's just an opinion based on stats. I don't understand why you think head-to-head decides which player is better overall. Head-to-head is played in one single match-up with two styles clashing. Some players' styles suck against others' (see Life vs Soulkey, GSL S5 2012 Ro16), that doesn't necessarily the losing player is worse overall, or even in the match-up. Isn't it entirely the player's fault that he uses a "style" that is weak against certain strategies? Sure, but that doesn't mean Shine is a better player than Soulkey. On September 03 2014 03:41 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:31 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:25 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:21 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:20 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:13 Zealously wrote:
[quote]
Flash beats Rain, loses to Solar, Bbyong, and sOs.
Rain loses to Flash, beats Solar, Bbyong and sOs.
Who is the best player? Whoever won the damn tournament. Both were eliminated in the Ro4. Come on, don't dodge. Who's better? We have to wait till the next tournament and see. Still undecided. Until they play, I don't know. It's just an opinion based on stats. I don't understand why you think head-to-head decides which player is better overall. Head-to-head is played in one single match-up with two styles clashing. Some players' styles suck against others' (see Life vs Soulkey, GSL S5 2012 Ro16), that doesn't necessarily the losing player is worse overall, or even in the match-up. Because it's the purest form of competition we have. A player can be a beast in the team house, even in on-line tournaments, (example: DonRaeGoo before he made a name in GSL), but proving yourself on the big stage is different. It's where champions are made. Not on a calculator. There's no accounting for the pressure of being on stage where its all on the line. No statistics in the world can prepare a player for that. We're not computers. We're human. And coping under pressure is a big part of being a champion. Champions are not decided on paper. The best mechanics in the world don't matter a row of beans if your too nervous to make the tough decisions under pressure. I'm not even sure what you're saying anymore. You started by saying that head-to-head decides who the best player is, but now you're talking about something else. Of course we're human and of course coping with pressure is an important part of winning tournaments, but that still doesn't mean that player A beating player B in head-to-head makes player A better than player B versus players C, D, E and so on. Perhaps it might in some sports (Tennis, I guess), but with how different styles and match-ups are in SC2, there is no way that beating one player makes you better than that player in every aspect. That's what the Power Rank is. Not "Which player would beat the next player head-to-head", but "Which player would beat the most players on a regular basis". I don't know what to say. Championships matter, statistics are nice to look at, and are interesting, but to say stats trump winning tournaments ... I have no answer to that. It's not stats. "Number of tournament wins" is also a statistic. What I'm talking about is skill. How good is a player? How well can he play and which players can he beat? Surely you see that winning an easy tournament is not the same as reaching the Ro4 in an extremely stacked tournament, and that the second is a greater achievement - in terms of difficulty - than the first? Heres my point. If Flash beats rain in two best of three qualifiers, 2-1. Then Rain beats Flash in the GSL finals 4-2. Statistically they're 6-6 versus each other. Aligulac would say they are equal. But they aren't even close. Rain is way way ahead because he won the GSL. Flash didn't. At the end of the day the stats don't tell the story, the title does. The title means far more than the stats.
I completely disagree with this view of the game. Under that scenario, you say they aren't even close. Sorry but I call bullshit. They are close, their skill level is so close that on any other day, any other circumstance this match could end exactly the other way around. And while yes, in this scenario, Flash would probably be #1 and Rain #2 in Power Rank, it would be just by a small margin and the next week/month it could be the other way around!
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On September 03 2014 04:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2014 04:08 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 04:03 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:48 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:41 opisska wrote:On September 03 2014 03:31 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:25 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:21 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:20 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:13 Zealously wrote:
[quote]
Flash beats Rain, loses to Solar, Bbyong, and sOs.
Rain loses to Flash, beats Solar, Bbyong and sOs.
Who is the best player? Whoever won the damn tournament. Both were eliminated in the Ro4. Come on, don't dodge. Who's better? We have to wait till the next tournament and see. Still undecided. Until they play, I don't know. It's just an opinion based on stats. I don't understand why you think head-to-head decides which player is better overall. Head-to-head is played in one single match-up with two styles clashing. Some players' styles suck against others' (see Life vs Soulkey, GSL S5 2012 Ro16), that doesn't necessarily the losing player is worse overall, or even in the match-up. Isn't it entirely the player's fault that he uses a "style" that is weak against certain strategies? Sure, but that doesn't mean Shine is a better player than Soulkey. On September 03 2014 03:41 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:31 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:25 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:21 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:20 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:13 Zealously wrote:
[quote]
Flash beats Rain, loses to Solar, Bbyong, and sOs.
Rain loses to Flash, beats Solar, Bbyong and sOs.
Who is the best player? Whoever won the damn tournament. Both were eliminated in the Ro4. Come on, don't dodge. Who's better? We have to wait till the next tournament and see. Still undecided. Until they play, I don't know. It's just an opinion based on stats. I don't understand why you think head-to-head decides which player is better overall. Head-to-head is played in one single match-up with two styles clashing. Some players' styles suck against others' (see Life vs Soulkey, GSL S5 2012 Ro16), that doesn't necessarily the losing player is worse overall, or even in the match-up. Because it's the purest form of competition we have. A player can be a beast in the team house, even in on-line tournaments, (example: DonRaeGoo before he made a name in GSL), but proving yourself on the big stage is different. It's where champions are made. Not on a calculator. There's no accounting for the pressure of being on stage where its all on the line. No statistics in the world can prepare a player for that. We're not computers. We're human. And coping under pressure is a big part of being a champion. Champions are not decided on paper. The best mechanics in the world don't matter a row of beans if your too nervous to make the tough decisions under pressure. I'm not even sure what you're saying anymore. You started by saying that head-to-head decides who the best player is, but now you're talking about something else. Of course we're human and of course coping with pressure is an important part of winning tournaments, but that still doesn't mean that player A beating player B in head-to-head makes player A better than player B versus players C, D, E and so on. Perhaps it might in some sports (Tennis, I guess), but with how different styles and match-ups are in SC2, there is no way that beating one player makes you better than that player in every aspect. That's what the Power Rank is. Not "Which player would beat the next player head-to-head", but "Which player would beat the most players on a regular basis". I don't know what to say. Championships matter, statistics are nice to look at, and are interesting, but to say stats trump winning tournaments ... I have no answer to that. It's not stats. "Number of tournament wins" is also a statistic. What I'm talking about is skill. How good is a player? How well can he play and which players can he beat? Surely you see that winning an easy tournament is not the same as reaching the Ro4 in an extremely stacked tournament, and that the second is a greater achievement - in terms of difficulty - than the first? While i agree with pretty much everything you said so far, what do you mean with "skill" ? The only real measurement of skill we have is winning/losing, if you want to compare players they obviously should face the same competition.
Level of play and opponents beat. I think it's possible to tell that a player is good without said player winning much. Fionn predicted Bogus being great when he had a horrible PL record, long before he became Innovation and absurdly good.
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On September 03 2014 04:23 Ammanas wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2014 04:19 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 04:08 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 04:03 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:48 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:41 opisska wrote:On September 03 2014 03:31 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:25 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:21 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:20 viperattack999 wrote:
[quote]
Whoever won the !@#$%^&* tournament. Both were eliminated in the Ro4. Come on, don't dodge. Who's better? We have to wait till the next tournament and see. Still undecided. Until they play, I don't know. It's just an opinion based on stats. I don't understand why you think head-to-head decides which player is better overall. Head-to-head is played in one single match-up with two styles clashing. Some players' styles suck against others' (see Life vs Soulkey, GSL S5 2012 Ro16), that doesn't necessarily the losing player is worse overall, or even in the match-up. Isn't it entirely the player's fault that he uses a "style" that is weak against certain strategies? Sure, but that doesn't mean Shine is a better player than Soulkey. On September 03 2014 03:41 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:31 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:25 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:21 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:20 viperattack999 wrote:
[quote]
Whoever won the !@#$%^&* tournament. Both were eliminated in the Ro4. Come on, don't dodge. Who's better? We have to wait till the next tournament and see. Still undecided. Until they play, I don't know. It's just an opinion based on stats. I don't understand why you think head-to-head decides which player is better overall. Head-to-head is played in one single match-up with two styles clashing. Some players' styles suck against others' (see Life vs Soulkey, GSL S5 2012 Ro16), that doesn't necessarily the losing player is worse overall, or even in the match-up. Because it's the purest form of competition we have. A player can be a beast in the team house, even in on-line tournaments, (example: DonRaeGoo before he made a name in GSL), but proving yourself on the big stage is different. It's where champions are made. Not on a calculator. There's no accounting for the pressure of being on stage where its all on the line. No statistics in the world can prepare a player for that. We're not computers. We're human. And coping under pressure is a big part of being a champion. Champions are not decided on paper. The best mechanics in the world don't matter a row of beans if your too nervous to make the tough decisions under pressure. I'm not even sure what you're saying anymore. You started by saying that head-to-head decides who the best player is, but now you're talking about something else. Of course we're human and of course coping with pressure is an important part of winning tournaments, but that still doesn't mean that player A beating player B in head-to-head makes player A better than player B versus players C, D, E and so on. Perhaps it might in some sports (Tennis, I guess), but with how different styles and match-ups are in SC2, there is no way that beating one player makes you better than that player in every aspect. That's what the Power Rank is. Not "Which player would beat the next player head-to-head", but "Which player would beat the most players on a regular basis". I don't know what to say. Championships matter, statistics are nice to look at, and are interesting, but to say stats trump winning tournaments ... I have no answer to that. It's not stats. "Number of tournament wins" is also a statistic. What I'm talking about is skill. How good is a player? How well can he play and which players can he beat? Surely you see that winning an easy tournament is not the same as reaching the Ro4 in an extremely stacked tournament, and that the second is a greater achievement - in terms of difficulty - than the first? Heres my point. If Flash beats rain in two best of three qualifiers, 2-1. Then Rain beats Flash in the GSL finals 4-2. Statistically they're 6-6 versus each other. Aligulac would say they are equal. But they aren't even close. Rain is way way ahead because he won the GSL. Flash didn't. At the end of the day the stats don't tell the story, the title does. The title means far more than the stats. I completely disagree with this view of the game. Under that scenario, you say they aren't even close. Sorry but I call bullshit. They are close, their skill level is so close that on any other day, any other circumstance this match could end exactly the other way around. And while yes, in this scenario, Flash would probably be #1 and Rain #2 in Power Rank, it would be just by a small margin and the next week/month it could be the other way around!
Title shouldn't matter more IMO. A win is a win, and sometimes you happen to have the margins on your side and you win a couple of more games than usual and end up with a title. That doesn't mean your neccesarily the best player in the world though.
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On September 03 2014 04:31 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2014 04:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 03 2014 04:08 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 04:03 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:48 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:41 opisska wrote:On September 03 2014 03:31 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:25 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:21 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:20 viperattack999 wrote:
[quote]
Whoever won the damn tournament. Both were eliminated in the Ro4. Come on, don't dodge. Who's better? We have to wait till the next tournament and see. Still undecided. Until they play, I don't know. It's just an opinion based on stats. I don't understand why you think head-to-head decides which player is better overall. Head-to-head is played in one single match-up with two styles clashing. Some players' styles suck against others' (see Life vs Soulkey, GSL S5 2012 Ro16), that doesn't necessarily the losing player is worse overall, or even in the match-up. Isn't it entirely the player's fault that he uses a "style" that is weak against certain strategies? Sure, but that doesn't mean Shine is a better player than Soulkey. On September 03 2014 03:41 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:31 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:25 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:21 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:20 viperattack999 wrote:
[quote]
Whoever won the damn tournament. Both were eliminated in the Ro4. Come on, don't dodge. Who's better? We have to wait till the next tournament and see. Still undecided. Until they play, I don't know. It's just an opinion based on stats. I don't understand why you think head-to-head decides which player is better overall. Head-to-head is played in one single match-up with two styles clashing. Some players' styles suck against others' (see Life vs Soulkey, GSL S5 2012 Ro16), that doesn't necessarily the losing player is worse overall, or even in the match-up. Because it's the purest form of competition we have. A player can be a beast in the team house, even in on-line tournaments, (example: DonRaeGoo before he made a name in GSL), but proving yourself on the big stage is different. It's where champions are made. Not on a calculator. There's no accounting for the pressure of being on stage where its all on the line. No statistics in the world can prepare a player for that. We're not computers. We're human. And coping under pressure is a big part of being a champion. Champions are not decided on paper. The best mechanics in the world don't matter a row of beans if your too nervous to make the tough decisions under pressure. I'm not even sure what you're saying anymore. You started by saying that head-to-head decides who the best player is, but now you're talking about something else. Of course we're human and of course coping with pressure is an important part of winning tournaments, but that still doesn't mean that player A beating player B in head-to-head makes player A better than player B versus players C, D, E and so on. Perhaps it might in some sports (Tennis, I guess), but with how different styles and match-ups are in SC2, there is no way that beating one player makes you better than that player in every aspect. That's what the Power Rank is. Not "Which player would beat the next player head-to-head", but "Which player would beat the most players on a regular basis". I don't know what to say. Championships matter, statistics are nice to look at, and are interesting, but to say stats trump winning tournaments ... I have no answer to that. It's not stats. "Number of tournament wins" is also a statistic. What I'm talking about is skill. How good is a player? How well can he play and which players can he beat? Surely you see that winning an easy tournament is not the same as reaching the Ro4 in an extremely stacked tournament, and that the second is a greater achievement - in terms of difficulty - than the first? While i agree with pretty much everything you said so far, what do you mean with "skill" ? The only real measurement of skill we have is winning/losing, if you want to compare players they obviously should face the same competition. Level of play and opponents beat. I think it's possible to tell that a player is good without said player winning much. Fionn predicted Bogus being great when he had a horrible PL record, long before he became Innovation and absurdly good.
Well that's more like potential imo, if you don't win the games you play you aren't good enough at that time.
But sometimes people talk about "skill" like it would be something like art, not really measurable.
I don't agree with that though, if you lose you were worse, simple as that (even though i rage too when my favorite player loses to some "protoss bs" or something like that^^)
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On September 03 2014 04:52 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2014 04:31 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 04:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 03 2014 04:08 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 04:03 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:48 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:41 opisska wrote:On September 03 2014 03:31 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:25 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:21 Zealously wrote:
[quote]
Both were eliminated in the Ro4. Come on, don't dodge. Who's better? We have to wait till the next tournament and see. Still undecided. Until they play, I don't know. It's just an opinion based on stats. I don't understand why you think head-to-head decides which player is better overall. Head-to-head is played in one single match-up with two styles clashing. Some players' styles suck against others' (see Life vs Soulkey, GSL S5 2012 Ro16), that doesn't necessarily the losing player is worse overall, or even in the match-up. Isn't it entirely the player's fault that he uses a "style" that is weak against certain strategies? Sure, but that doesn't mean Shine is a better player than Soulkey. On September 03 2014 03:41 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:31 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:25 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:21 Zealously wrote:
[quote]
Both were eliminated in the Ro4. Come on, don't dodge. Who's better? We have to wait till the next tournament and see. Still undecided. Until they play, I don't know. It's just an opinion based on stats. I don't understand why you think head-to-head decides which player is better overall. Head-to-head is played in one single match-up with two styles clashing. Some players' styles suck against others' (see Life vs Soulkey, GSL S5 2012 Ro16), that doesn't necessarily the losing player is worse overall, or even in the match-up. Because it's the purest form of competition we have. A player can be a beast in the team house, even in on-line tournaments, (example: DonRaeGoo before he made a name in GSL), but proving yourself on the big stage is different. It's where champions are made. Not on a calculator. There's no accounting for the pressure of being on stage where its all on the line. No statistics in the world can prepare a player for that. We're not computers. We're human. And coping under pressure is a big part of being a champion. Champions are not decided on paper. The best mechanics in the world don't matter a row of beans if your too nervous to make the tough decisions under pressure. I'm not even sure what you're saying anymore. You started by saying that head-to-head decides who the best player is, but now you're talking about something else. Of course we're human and of course coping with pressure is an important part of winning tournaments, but that still doesn't mean that player A beating player B in head-to-head makes player A better than player B versus players C, D, E and so on. Perhaps it might in some sports (Tennis, I guess), but with how different styles and match-ups are in SC2, there is no way that beating one player makes you better than that player in every aspect. That's what the Power Rank is. Not "Which player would beat the next player head-to-head", but "Which player would beat the most players on a regular basis". I don't know what to say. Championships matter, statistics are nice to look at, and are interesting, but to say stats trump winning tournaments ... I have no answer to that. It's not stats. "Number of tournament wins" is also a statistic. What I'm talking about is skill. How good is a player? How well can he play and which players can he beat? Surely you see that winning an easy tournament is not the same as reaching the Ro4 in an extremely stacked tournament, and that the second is a greater achievement - in terms of difficulty - than the first? While i agree with pretty much everything you said so far, what do you mean with "skill" ? The only real measurement of skill we have is winning/losing, if you want to compare players they obviously should face the same competition. Level of play and opponents beat. I think it's possible to tell that a player is good without said player winning much. Fionn predicted Bogus being great when he had a horrible PL record, long before he became Innovation and absurdly good. Well that's more like potential imo, if you don't win the games you play you aren't good enough at that time. But sometimes people talk about "skill" like it would be something like art, not really measurable. I don't agree with that though, if you lose you were worse, simple as that (even though i rage too when my favorite player loses to some "protoss bs" or something like that^^)
I don't think it's as easy as that. As you said, skill is very hard to describe. Some think of it as a pure mechanical thing (maybe including things like positioning etc) - in that case it is very possible for more skilled player to lose due to things like mind games. Some argue, that strategy, mind games, things like that are also part of the skill. On the other hand, those are also things that can be influenced by an outsider - if your coach tells you to 2 rax because after studying 40 replays of your opponent he found out they don't scout one specific location on the map - it is a strategy, maybe even mind game. But it is your own skill? So yeah, I don't think it's as easy as 'the player who won is the more skilled player'.
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On September 03 2014 04:19 viperattack999 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2014 04:08 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 04:03 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:48 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:41 opisska wrote:On September 03 2014 03:31 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:25 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:21 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:20 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:13 Zealously wrote:
[quote]
Flash beats Rain, loses to Solar, Bbyong, and sOs.
Rain loses to Flash, beats Solar, Bbyong and sOs.
Who is the best player? Whoever won the damn tournament. Both were eliminated in the Ro4. Come on, don't dodge. Who's better? We have to wait till the next tournament and see. Still undecided. Until they play, I don't know. It's just an opinion based on stats. I don't understand why you think head-to-head decides which player is better overall. Head-to-head is played in one single match-up with two styles clashing. Some players' styles suck against others' (see Life vs Soulkey, GSL S5 2012 Ro16), that doesn't necessarily the losing player is worse overall, or even in the match-up. Isn't it entirely the player's fault that he uses a "style" that is weak against certain strategies? Sure, but that doesn't mean Shine is a better player than Soulkey. On September 03 2014 03:41 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:31 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:25 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:21 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:20 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:13 Zealously wrote:
[quote]
Flash beats Rain, loses to Solar, Bbyong, and sOs.
Rain loses to Flash, beats Solar, Bbyong and sOs.
Who is the best player? Whoever won the damn tournament. Both were eliminated in the Ro4. Come on, don't dodge. Who's better? We have to wait till the next tournament and see. Still undecided. Until they play, I don't know. It's just an opinion based on stats. I don't understand why you think head-to-head decides which player is better overall. Head-to-head is played in one single match-up with two styles clashing. Some players' styles suck against others' (see Life vs Soulkey, GSL S5 2012 Ro16), that doesn't necessarily the losing player is worse overall, or even in the match-up. Because it's the purest form of competition we have. A player can be a beast in the team house, even in on-line tournaments, (example: DonRaeGoo before he made a name in GSL), but proving yourself on the big stage is different. It's where champions are made. Not on a calculator. There's no accounting for the pressure of being on stage where its all on the line. No statistics in the world can prepare a player for that. We're not computers. We're human. And coping under pressure is a big part of being a champion. Champions are not decided on paper. The best mechanics in the world don't matter a row of beans if your too nervous to make the tough decisions under pressure. I'm not even sure what you're saying anymore. You started by saying that head-to-head decides who the best player is, but now you're talking about something else. Of course we're human and of course coping with pressure is an important part of winning tournaments, but that still doesn't mean that player A beating player B in head-to-head makes player A better than player B versus players C, D, E and so on. Perhaps it might in some sports (Tennis, I guess), but with how different styles and match-ups are in SC2, there is no way that beating one player makes you better than that player in every aspect. That's what the Power Rank is. Not "Which player would beat the next player head-to-head", but "Which player would beat the most players on a regular basis". I don't know what to say. Championships matter, statistics are nice to look at, and are interesting, but to say stats trump winning tournaments ... I have no answer to that. It's not stats. "Number of tournament wins" is also a statistic. What I'm talking about is skill. How good is a player? How well can he play and which players can he beat? Surely you see that winning an easy tournament is not the same as reaching the Ro4 in an extremely stacked tournament, and that the second is a greater achievement - in terms of difficulty - than the first? Heres my point. If Flash beats rain in two best of three qualifiers, 2-1. Then Rain beats Flash in the GSL finals 4-2. Statistically they're 6-6 versus each other. Aligulac would say they are equal. But they aren't even close. Rain is way way ahead because he won the GSL. Flash didn't. At the end of the day the stats don't tell the story, the title does. The title means far more than the stats.
Classic better player than soO?
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On September 03 2014 05:13 Phredxor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2014 04:19 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 04:08 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 04:03 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:48 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:41 opisska wrote:On September 03 2014 03:31 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:25 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:21 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:20 viperattack999 wrote:
[quote]
Whoever won the damn tournament. Both were eliminated in the Ro4. Come on, don't dodge. Who's better? We have to wait till the next tournament and see. Still undecided. Until they play, I don't know. It's just an opinion based on stats. I don't understand why you think head-to-head decides which player is better overall. Head-to-head is played in one single match-up with two styles clashing. Some players' styles suck against others' (see Life vs Soulkey, GSL S5 2012 Ro16), that doesn't necessarily the losing player is worse overall, or even in the match-up. Isn't it entirely the player's fault that he uses a "style" that is weak against certain strategies? Sure, but that doesn't mean Shine is a better player than Soulkey. On September 03 2014 03:41 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:31 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:25 viperattack999 wrote:On September 03 2014 03:21 Zealously wrote:On September 03 2014 03:20 viperattack999 wrote:
[quote]
Whoever won the damn tournament. Both were eliminated in the Ro4. Come on, don't dodge. Who's better? We have to wait till the next tournament and see. Still undecided. Until they play, I don't know. It's just an opinion based on stats. I don't understand why you think head-to-head decides which player is better overall. Head-to-head is played in one single match-up with two styles clashing. Some players' styles suck against others' (see Life vs Soulkey, GSL S5 2012 Ro16), that doesn't necessarily the losing player is worse overall, or even in the match-up. Because it's the purest form of competition we have. A player can be a beast in the team house, even in on-line tournaments, (example: DonRaeGoo before he made a name in GSL), but proving yourself on the big stage is different. It's where champions are made. Not on a calculator. There's no accounting for the pressure of being on stage where its all on the line. No statistics in the world can prepare a player for that. We're not computers. We're human. And coping under pressure is a big part of being a champion. Champions are not decided on paper. The best mechanics in the world don't matter a row of beans if your too nervous to make the tough decisions under pressure. I'm not even sure what you're saying anymore. You started by saying that head-to-head decides who the best player is, but now you're talking about something else. Of course we're human and of course coping with pressure is an important part of winning tournaments, but that still doesn't mean that player A beating player B in head-to-head makes player A better than player B versus players C, D, E and so on. Perhaps it might in some sports (Tennis, I guess), but with how different styles and match-ups are in SC2, there is no way that beating one player makes you better than that player in every aspect. That's what the Power Rank is. Not "Which player would beat the next player head-to-head", but "Which player would beat the most players on a regular basis". I don't know what to say. Championships matter, statistics are nice to look at, and are interesting, but to say stats trump winning tournaments ... I have no answer to that. It's not stats. "Number of tournament wins" is also a statistic. What I'm talking about is skill. How good is a player? How well can he play and which players can he beat? Surely you see that winning an easy tournament is not the same as reaching the Ro4 in an extremely stacked tournament, and that the second is a greater achievement - in terms of difficulty - than the first? Heres my point. If Flash beats rain in two best of three qualifiers, 2-1. Then Rain beats Flash in the GSL finals 4-2. Statistically they're 6-6 versus each other. Aligulac would say they are equal. But they aren't even close. Rain is way way ahead because he won the GSL. Flash didn't. At the end of the day the stats don't tell the story, the title does. The title means far more than the stats. Classic better player than soO?
Depends on how you define better.
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EPT
