On August 06 2014 23:39 Faust852 wrote: Looks like pros don't really want to go to Russia :}
We're not sending players for a couple of reasons. Firstly, Russias rampant homophobia. Not only is it morally repugnant, but it puts our players at risk. Korean males are culturally very comfortable with being close to each other. Holding hands, sitting on others laps etc, not at all uncommon. In Russia this could be mistaken for gay behavior and may result in misunderstandings that could even lead to violence. There are plenty of incidents where gay or "we thought he was gay" people have been beaten in Russia. Secondly, Russias belligerence in how they're acting with the Ukraine is reason enough to keep our players out on both moral grounds and with concern to their own safety.
EDIT: Since this is now linked on Reddit and they probably won't read my followup post. I'm reposting that here.
It's just a really sad state of affairs. I have quite a lot of Russian fans, so does the team, but the safety of the players has to come first. The political reasoning isn't even that important, almost every country does something objectionable. Should we not send players to the US because of the arguably illegal wars its waged in the past or the whole spying on its own citizens thing? You'd be short on tournaments to go to if you started doing that. The homophobic violence however is a very real thing and don't count on thugs to know the difference between gay people and typical Korean male social closeness. This homophobia, pushed by those in power, is deliberately divisive. Unite the country by persecuting a minority within it, differentiate yourselves from other countries that are more accepting, utilize the galvinisation against said minority as a banner to rally behind and in turn, rally against countries who the population now perceives as different and "the enemy". It's sad that this can still work in the internet age, though I think we are getting to the point where it is losing its effectiveness. It's hard to view other people in other countries as enemies when you interact with them every day online and see that they're just another human being like us.
So the primary reason for not sending our players is the safety concern. If we had someone on the ground who spoke Russian that we could trust we would probably be more open to the idea, but we don't, so we'd rather not send our players into that environment. Not sending our players should not be considered a boycott of the event, we just want to risk our players well-being when there are other events they could attend that don't carry those risks.
Very interesting information in 1 post: 1. Koreans looks like gays and live in same way; 2. Russian - agressors.
To the 2nd idea - all Russians reconciled with this. But On a place of Koreans I would take offense.
On August 06 2014 23:39 Faust852 wrote: Looks like pros don't really want to go to Russia :}
We're not sending players for a couple of reasons. Firstly, Russias rampant homophobia. Not only is it morally repugnant, but it puts our players at risk. Korean males are culturally very comfortable with being close to each other. Holding hands, sitting on others laps etc, not at all uncommon. In Russia this could be mistaken for gay behavior and may result in misunderstandings that could even lead to violence. There are plenty of incidents where gay or "we thought he was gay" people have been beaten in Russia. Secondly, Russias belligerence in how they're acting with the Ukraine is reason enough to keep our players out on both moral grounds and with concern to their own safety.
EDIT: Since this is now linked on Reddit and they probably won't read my followup post. I'm reposting that here.
It's just a really sad state of affairs. I have quite a lot of Russian fans, so does the team, but the safety of the players has to come first. The political reasoning isn't even that important, almost every country does something objectionable. Should we not send players to the US because of the arguably illegal wars its waged in the past or the whole spying on its own citizens thing? You'd be short on tournaments to go to if you started doing that. The homophobic violence however is a very real thing and don't count on thugs to know the difference between gay people and typical Korean male social closeness. This homophobia, pushed by those in power, is deliberately divisive. Unite the country by persecuting a minority within it, differentiate yourselves from other countries that are more accepting, utilize the galvinisation against said minority as a banner to rally behind and in turn, rally against countries who the population now perceives as different and "the enemy". It's sad that this can still work in the internet age, though I think we are getting to the point where it is losing its effectiveness. It's hard to view other people in other countries as enemies when you interact with them every day online and see that they're just another human being like us.
So the primary reason for not sending our players is the safety concern. If we had someone on the ground who spoke Russian that we could trust we would probably be more open to the idea, but we don't, so we'd rather not send our players into that environment. Not sending our players should not be considered a boycott of the event, we just want to risk our players well-being when there are other events they could attend that don't carry those risks.
Very interesting information in 1 post: 1. Koreans looks like gays and live in same way; 2. Russian - agressors.
To the 2nd idea - all Russians reconciled with this. But On a place of Koreans I would take offense.
You know you just provide evidence toward his point right? It says enough that you'd rather be labled a violent fascist than gay.
Very interesting information in 1 post: 1. Koreans looks like gays and live in same way; 2. Russian - agressors.
To the 2nd idea - all Russians reconciled with this. But On a place of Koreans I would take offense.
You know you just provide evidence toward his point right? It says enough that you'd rather be labled a violent fascist than gay.
Labling people at all is kinda wrong) Doesn't really matter if you are fine with it or you are offended.
While the line-up is not exciting, im really interested to see results and vods, there are always diamonds in the rough at events with 95% players being major underdogs
to be honest its not very safe now to run an international tourney in Moscow, not because of the safety of players in Moscow (i mean c'mon, i left my ipad mini in a cafe and a waiter was running 2 blocks to give it back to me, and NO, PEOPLE DONT CARRY GUNS in the street), but rather due to possible visa issues. This might be the saddest DH ever... And moreover it can unintentionally shut down the possibilities of future events due to this lackluster timing ...
Stop assuming russia is a 3rd world country or something. I went to moscow before and its just as safe like any other American city such as NYC, chicago, san francisco etc. However the streets are sometimes very empty which may be frightening for some but thats about it.
On August 09 2014 00:31 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: to be honest its not very safe now to run an international tourney in Moscow, not because of the safety of players in Moscow (i mean c'mon, i left my ipad mini in a cafe and a waiter was running 2 blocks to give it back to me, and NO, PEOPLE DONT CARRY GUNS in the street), but rather due to possible visa issues. This might be the saddest DH ever... And moreover it can unintentionally shut down the possibilities of future events due to this lackluster timing ...
Well, just gotta visit it, buy merch and shit, i mean cmon, its not like DH is being run by GE, doubt they will cross off Russia forever. Just till this impire clash shit is over, and the world is "at peace again"
On August 09 2014 00:48 syriuszonito wrote: Given the current situation shouldnt this event be moved somwhere else?
I would think so, but probably now its too late... i just hope that the possible bitter taste will not divert organizers to have something organized in Russia for ages later on ... We have so many awesome people who TRULLY love e-sports!
On August 09 2014 00:48 syriuszonito wrote: Given the current situation shouldnt this event be moved somwhere else?
I would think so, but probably now its too late... i just hope that the possible bitter taste will not divert organizers to have something organized in Russia for ages later on ... We have so many awesome people who TRULLY love e-sports!
It's just unfortunate series of events that has caused current situation, so I doubt that it will divert organizers totally - for the crisis duration the most, assuming DH Moscow doesn't go excessively profitable. If it does go into high profit land, they would shoot themselves in their feet by abandoning it.
At the moment though it is too early to guess since we have no idea who are the rest of players.
TB-Axiom wise I doubt that anything will change unless he gets a trustee in Moscow who could assist Axiom in further events, if need be. Even though Moscow is capital of Russian Federation, it still is not too difficult to get into trouble on various grounds, even if we discard Korean male social culture - I can't really talk about it since I have no idea.
We're not sending players for a couple of reasons. Firstly, Russias rampant homophobia. Not only is it morally repugnant, but it puts our players at risk. Korean males are culturally very comfortable with being close to each other. Holding hands, sitting on others laps etc, not at all uncommon. In Russia this could be mistaken for gay behavior and may result in misunderstandings that could even lead to violence. There are plenty of incidents where gay or "we thought he was gay" people have been beaten in Russia. Secondly, Russias belligerence in how they're acting with the Ukraine is reason enough to keep our players out on both moral grounds and with concern to their own safety.
EDIT: Since this is now linked on Reddit and they probably won't read my followup post. I'm reposting that here.
It's just a really sad state of affairs. I have quite a lot of Russian fans, so does the team, but the safety of the players has to come first. The political reasoning isn't even that important, almost every country does something objectionable. Should we not send players to the US because of the arguably illegal wars its waged in the past or the whole spying on its own citizens thing? You'd be short on tournaments to go to if you started doing that. The homophobic violence however is a very real thing and don't count on thugs to know the difference between gay people and typical Korean male social closeness. This homophobia, pushed by those in power, is deliberately divisive. Unite the country by persecuting a minority within it, differentiate yourselves from other countries that are more accepting, utilize the galvinisation against said minority as a banner to rally behind and in turn, rally against countries who the population now perceives as different and "the enemy". It's sad that this can still work in the internet age, though I think we are getting to the point where it is losing its effectiveness. It's hard to view other people in other countries as enemies when you interact with them every day online and see that they're just another human being like us.
So the primary reason for not sending our players is the safety concern. If we had someone on the ground who spoke Russian that we could trust we would probably be more open to the idea, but we don't, so we'd rather not send our players into that environment. Not sending our players should not be considered a boycott of the event, we just want to risk our players well-being when there are other events they could attend that don't carry those risks.
"Russias belligerence in how they're acting with the Ukraine is reason enough to keep our players out on both moral grounds and with concern to their own safety.
Should we not send players to the US because of the arguably illegal wars its waged in the past or the whole spying on its own citizens thing? You'd be short on tournaments to go to if you started doing that."
A more consistent reasoning would be desirable. First, you dismiss Russia due to moral grounds and the safety concern. Second, you admit that the US waged "arguably illegal wars" and "spying on it's citizens" (not only US citizens right? ). But since the US hosts so many tournaments, I understand you are willing to make an exception, cause if not, "we would be short on tournaments". My conclusion is that even though your humane moral is of an exceptionally high level, that moral is not worth nothing when it comes to e-sport.
On August 07 2014 08:28 TotalBiscuit wrote: Just another piece of pondscum lying on the surface of this community that nobody will remember after today.
It seems calling people pond scum that nobody will remember (etc) is OK , meanwhile people get banned left and right for (imo) much more minior things.
/Lowly regarded person part of the evil toxic community donating and paying for SC2 and e-sports products - - -
I think the DreamHack team and crew will fit in very well in Russia at least and I'm sure it will be awesome
When you tell someone with cancer that he will propably die, you deserve that kind of shit.
I think the absence of too many koreans is actually a good thing, they would have just stomped the local players. This way we get lower-level more-exciting matches! I hope...
On August 09 2014 21:08 peetah wrote: Should we not send players to the US because of the arguably illegal wars its waged in the past or the whole spying on its own citizens thing? You'd be short on tournaments to go to if you started doing that.
Silly argument; we can't do anything to change the past - but the situation in Ukraine is a current event.
As for the whole surveillance thing, pretty much all countries do it. NSA likely more comprehensively than most, but according to them it's legal under their own laws. It's fine if you think such things shouldn't be legal, but let's not get on too high of a horse here: Swedish wiretapping law in 2008.
On August 08 2014 10:01 vinsang1000 wrote: From my personnal experience, my korean friends were very scared/unconfortable to go to eastern europe for holidays. Main point was being scared of anti-asian racism. Maybe this is a part of it seeing the lack of koreans.
Now, second point, regarding the european players, it's a mess to go to russia from EU for the Visa (+ it's expensive). I understand that teams prefer send their players to Valencia, stockolm, germany, etc...
There is no anti-asian racism in Russia Hope to see Taeja playing at Dreamhack Moscow))
C'mon man. Let's not play stupid games here. Have you not seen the videos of immigrant markets getting trashed and the vendors beaten to a pulp by Russian skin heads? It's fine to argue that things are better than they were before or whatever (if that's the case), but to claim basically BS things like this is a little too much.
On August 09 2014 21:08 peetah wrote: Should we not send players to the US because of the arguably illegal wars its waged in the past or the whole spying on its own citizens thing? You'd be short on tournaments to go to if you started doing that.
Silly argument; we can't do anything to change the past - but the situation in Ukraine is a current event.
As for the whole surveillance thing, pretty much all countries do it. NSA likely more comprehensively than most, but according to them it's legal under their own laws. It's fine if you think such things shouldn't be legal, but let's not get on too high of a horse here: Swedish wiretapping law in 2008.
If you want to take that route, sure. The US still have troops in Afghanistan after the attack, this is not the past.
Dont get me wrong here, I didn't brought up the issue of US warfare and spying on citizens, TotalBiscuit did. I don't object having SC 2 tournaments in the US, Russia or Sweden. Why I answered him in the first place is because he is obviously using double standards.
Participate in a tournament in the US even though the aggression in the middle east - OK "You'd be short on tournaments to go to if you started doing that"
Participate in a tournament in Russia even though the aggression on Ukraine - NOT OK "Russias belligerence in how they're acting with the Ukraine is reason enough to keep our players out on both moral grounds... "
EPT
). But since the US hosts so many tournaments, I understand you are willing to make an exception, cause if not, "we would be short on tournaments". My conclusion is that even though your humane moral is of an exceptionally high level, that moral is not worth nothing when it comes to e-sport. 
