Wow, that is a lot of russians. I think TargA also announced on twitter, that he wanted to go, so we can assume, that he is one of the unannounced players. And when they save TargA for the second batch, they might save a few other bigger names as well.
On August 06 2014 20:27 SNSeigifried wrote: Lets hope the 2nd batch has a few more good names cause this is looking very lackluster and free wcs points for Patience
Don't think so. From aligulac search, Patience is 6-5 against Golden, who is 5-4 against Happy, who is 1-0 against Patience, so those 3 should be about the same level.
On August 06 2014 20:32 SNSeigifried wrote: Yes but if Golden or Patience wins this would skyrocket them in the wcs rankings and may even qualify them.
Golden could go to rank 18, Patience to 20 winning this. And Patience has SD and Snute in his WCS group, so his further point income may be cut short very soon. Don't worry, the second batch of players will come, and there will be other constetands in there, I have faith, that top players seing this list are signing up very soon.
On August 06 2014 21:12 neoghaleon55 wrote: I wonder if it's scary or dangerous to go to Russia these days...
That's it. And I think someone can also think "I don't wanto to go in a nation that generate a war".
I still fail to see, how that has anything to do with a SC tournament. You drive in, play Starcraft, drive out again without interfering with russian army or politics at all.
Yeah, this whole "political boycott" is bullshit. Every big nation does bad shit, but that wouldn't stop anyone, especially from eSports to go to the US or China.
Well, both nations are fighting a war. Not a full scale war, but their forces are fighting each other and people are dying. Personally I would find it strange to see Ukrainian player casually showing up in Moscow to play Starcraft 2 tournament. Unless he supports Russia in this conflict. Or he doesn't care about it.
On August 06 2014 22:31 Cinek357 wrote: Well, both nations are fighting a war. Not a full scale war, but their forces are fighting each other and people are dying. Personally I would find it strange to see Ukrainian player casually showing up in Moscow to play Starcraft 2 tournament. Unless he supports Russia in this conflict. Or he doesn't care about it.
Well, it is their job after all. If they personally decide for themselve, that they don't want to go, than it's their own decesion, but if they go, they shouldn't be judged for that in any way. In the end, this is a tournament by a swedish organization for russian esports fans, it's not like Putin or the russian nation is sponsoring DH or even being represented there.
On August 06 2014 22:31 Cinek357 wrote: Well, both nations are fighting a war. Not a full scale war, but their forces are fighting each other and people are dying. Personally I would find it strange to see Ukrainian player casually showing up in Moscow to play Starcraft 2 tournament. Unless he supports Russia in this conflict. Or he doesn't care about it.
Well, it is their job after all. If they personally decide for themselve, that they don't want to go, than it's their own decesion, but if they go, they shouldn't be judged for that in any way. In the end, this is a tournament by a swedish organization for russian esports fans, it's not like Putin or the russian nation is sponsoring DH or even being represented there.
On the other hand, they won't be able to play because afaik, you can't go abroad from Ukraine if you're Ukranian and you're old enough to be in military. Because of it, a lot of my friends just hide from military because they just don't wanna die because of some ridiculous reason.
Hmm, this is looking like one of the least interesting premier tournaments so far, but maybe the remaining 20 players will be top-tier Europeans and some Koreans.
Somehow normal interactions with Russia after they helped the Ukrainian separatists murder a plane load of civilians just seems wrong. The World Cup is in Russia in 2018 but that is a case of an extremely corrupt organization holding its competition in an extremely corrupt country - seems appropriate.
A shame that it could not have been reconvened in another, better, country but at the end of the day it is a Swedish eSports competition not a Russian one. Hopefully, they will choose the location more carefully next time - DreamHack North Korea anyone?
I agree that the lineup looks weak at the moment - but maybe we will see some lesser used strats?
On August 06 2014 23:04 DeadByDawn wrote: Somehow normal interactions with Russia after they helped the Ukrainian separatists murder a plane load of civilians just seems wrong. The World Cup is in Russia in 2018 but that is a case of an extremely corrupt organization holding its competition in an extremely corrupt country - seems appropriate.
A shame that it could not have been reconvened in another, better, country but at the end of the day it is a Swedish eSports competition not a Russian one. Hopefully, they will choose the location more carefully next time - DreamHack North Korea anyone?
I agree that the lineup looks weak at the moment - but maybe we will see some lesser used strats?
And again I ask: What does that have to do with esports? This tournament is not benefitting Russia as a nation or the russian army or politics. It is there to benefit the russian esports fans, who have been part of the scene for ages without ever getting the premier tournament they deserve. Is it to much to give it to them?
On August 06 2014 23:04 DeadByDawn wrote: Somehow normal interactions with Russia after they helped the Ukrainian separatists murder a plane load of civilians just seems wrong. The World Cup is in Russia in 2018 but that is a case of an extremely corrupt organization holding its competition in an extremely corrupt country - seems appropriate.
A shame that it could not have been reconvened in another, better, country but at the end of the day it is a Swedish eSports competition not a Russian one. Hopefully, they will choose the location more carefully next time - DreamHack North Korea anyone?
I agree that the lineup looks weak at the moment - but maybe we will see some lesser used strats?
And again I ask: What does that have to do with esports? This tournament is not benefitting Russia as a nation or the russian army or politics. It is there to benefit the russian esports fans, who have been part of the scene for ages without ever getting the premier tournament they deserve. Is it to much to give it to them?
Maybe nothing, maybe we should have no morals about this. Games in Nazi Germany, OK, games in North Korea, OK, games in Apartheid-era South Africa, OK.
I do not think that the competition should be canceled but I do hope that there is some regret about holding it there.
On August 06 2014 21:12 neoghaleon55 wrote: I wonder if it's scary or dangerous to go to Russia these days...
That's it. And I think someone can also think "I don't wanto to go in a nation that generate a war".
lol that's hilarious to read.
it's not scary nor dangerous and russia and moscow in particular is completely filled with tourists, especially this time of the year (and september will be too)
if you feel it's scary or dangerous you're probably watching too much CNN or similar western countern part that just trash talk russia. i am actually against what russia has done in Ukraine/Crimea and so forth, but to say that it's scary or dangerous it's a huge idiocy.
also the "i don't want to go into a nation that generate(s?) a war" is silly. No war has happened yet (although the one going in eastern Ukraine could definitely be called a civil war) and if you think that what happened is entirely russia's fault you must be very naive.
with that said, for the people comparing coming to Russia for esports to nazi germany or north korea actually baffle me beyond comprehension you guys are completely brain washed. Russia is not at all what nazi germany or north korea are, it's kind of amusing to read comment of people who have been entirely brain washed. There's a ton of Russian SC2 fans that would love to attend an event filled with top korean pros and I hope some come
On August 06 2014 23:04 DeadByDawn wrote: Somehow normal interactions with Russia after they helped the Ukrainian separatists murder a plane load of civilians just seems wrong. The World Cup is in Russia in 2018 but that is a case of an extremely corrupt organization holding its competition in an extremely corrupt country - seems appropriate.
A shame that it could not have been reconvened in another, better, country but at the end of the day it is a Swedish eSports competition not a Russian one. Hopefully, they will choose the location more carefully next time - DreamHack North Korea anyone?
I agree that the lineup looks weak at the moment - but maybe we will see some lesser used strats?
And again I ask: What does that have to do with esports? This tournament is not benefitting Russia as a nation or the russian army or politics. It is there to benefit the russian esports fans, who have been part of the scene for ages without ever getting the premier tournament they deserve. Is it to much to give it to them?
Maybe nothing, maybe we should have no morals about this. Games in Nazi Germany, OK, games in North Korea, OK, games in Apartheid-era South Africa, OK.
I do not think that the competition should be canceled but I do hope that there is some regret about holding it there.
You mention morals without explaining, what is morally wrong here. Again, this competetion does not benefit russia. If it would benefit Russia, we could start talking about morals. Since it does not benefit Russia, but only russian esports fans, morals are not part of the decesion on where to hold the tournament.
We have to be realistic about our own size here. Esports has (contrary to FIFA 2018, which was mentioned earlier) not yet gotten big enough to have any real political influence. This tournament is not given to Russia because Russia asked for it or Russia wanted it, it is there, because russian fans are contributing to esports the same way everyone else does and they deserve the same reward as everyone else gets in getting the chance to attend to a live premier tournament.
On August 06 2014 23:16 Xoronius wrote: And again I ask: What does that have to do with esports? This tournament is not benefitting Russia as a nation or the russian army or politics.
It kinda does. Same as DH Bucharest helps to promote Romania and DH Valencia helps to promote Spain. These kind of tournaments show host country in a good light. It works the same as World Cup 2018 or Winter Olympics 2014 and this is exactly what Russian army or politics want. E-sports is just way smaller, so they probably don't even know about Dreamhack taking place in Russia, but it helps Russian politics the same way as other sport events do.
On August 06 2014 23:16 Xoronius wrote: And again I ask: What does that have to do with esports? This tournament is not benefitting Russia as a nation or the russian army or politics.
It kinda does. Same as DH Bucharest helps to promote Romania and DH Valencia helps to promote Spain. These kind of tournaments show host country in a good light. It works the same as World Cup 2018 or Winter Olympics 2014 and this is exactly what Russian army or politics want. E-sports is just way smaller, so they probably don't even know about Dreamhack taking place in Russia, but it helps Russian politics the same way as other sport events do.
If this would be correct, the effect would be pretty neglectable due to the size of DH compared to olympics/world cup/whatever. However, I don't think, that it has quite the same effect. The will be no important personalities there, who could be beneficial for local buissness. There are no big TV productions, who give 15-min long introductions about the country and the town, the event is held in, before they cut to the actual event. There will be indoor esports, which is hardly distinguishable from other indoor esports, except for the fact, that the chants will be in russian and the cheerfulls might be in cyrillic. I don't think, that there is much of an impact.
On August 06 2014 23:39 Faust852 wrote: Looks like pros don't really want to go to Russia :}
We're not sending players for a couple of reasons. Firstly, Russias rampant homophobia. Not only is it morally repugnant, but it puts our players at risk. Korean males are culturally very comfortable with being close to each other. Holding hands, sitting on others laps etc, not at all uncommon. In Russia this could be mistaken for gay behavior and may result in misunderstandings that could even lead to violence. There are plenty of incidents where gay or "we thought he was gay" people have been beaten in Russia. Secondly, Russias belligerence in how they're acting with the Ukraine is reason enough to keep our players out on both moral grounds and with concern to their own safety.
EDIT: Since this is now linked on Reddit and they probably won't read my followup post. I'm reposting that here.
It's just a really sad state of affairs. I have quite a lot of Russian fans, so does the team, but the safety of the players has to come first. The political reasoning isn't even that important, almost every country does something objectionable. Should we not send players to the US because of the arguably illegal wars its waged in the past or the whole spying on its own citizens thing? You'd be short on tournaments to go to if you started doing that. The homophobic violence however is a very real thing and don't count on thugs to know the difference between gay people and typical Korean male social closeness. This homophobia, pushed by those in power, is deliberately divisive. Unite the country by persecuting a minority within it, differentiate yourselves from other countries that are more accepting, utilize the galvinisation against said minority as a banner to rally behind and in turn, rally against countries who the population now perceives as different and "the enemy". It's sad that this can still work in the internet age, though I think we are getting to the point where it is losing its effectiveness. It's hard to view other people in other countries as enemies when you interact with them every day online and see that they're just another human being like us.
So the primary reason for not sending our players is the safety concern. If we had someone on the ground who spoke Russian that we could trust we would probably be more open to the idea, but we don't, so we'd rather not send our players into that environment. Not sending our players should not be considered a boycott of the event, we just want to risk our players well-being when there are other events they could attend that don't carry those risks.
On August 06 2014 23:39 Faust852 wrote: Looks like pros don't really want to go to Russia :}
We're not sending players for a couple of reasons. Firstly, Russias rampant homophobia. Not only is it morally repugnant, but it puts our players at risk. Korean males are culturally very comfortable with being close to each other. Holding hands, sitting on others laps etc, not at all uncommon. In Russia this could be mistaken for gay behavior and may result in misunderstandings that could even lead to violence. There are plenty of incidents where gay or "we thought he was gay" people have been beaten in Russia. Secondly, Russias belligerence in how they're acting with the Ukraine is reason enough to keep our players out on both moral grounds and with concern to their own safety.
before I read that post I thought not going there for political reasons was idiotic. you completely changed my mind on that, I kind of forgot the whole homophobia issue due to the mindless russiabashing in the face of natural geopolitical behaviour. I am really glad you decide to not send players for the first reason though. I hope other teammanagers follow this line of argumentation and keep their players safe.
depending on the rest of the line up, I might even skip watching it.
Hmm kinda weak list but I'm assuming they are releasing the local list first with a few big names sprinkled in before announcing the world-class players.
On August 06 2014 23:16 Xoronius wrote: And again I ask: What does that have to do with esports? This tournament is not benefitting Russia as a nation or the russian army or politics.
This kind of a situation has already happend to some musicians that went to Russia for their concerts or even to receive awards during the conflict. Now they're claimed as rats/traitors. So these players are known to what they will be called if they go. "It's just a business, nothing personal"? Yeah, and nothing patriotical also.
On August 06 2014 23:39 Faust852 wrote: Looks like pros don't really want to go to Russia :}
We're not sending players for a couple of reasons. Firstly, Russias rampant homophobia. Not only is it morally repugnant, but it puts our players at risk. Korean males are culturally very comfortable with being close to each other. Holding hands, sitting on others laps etc, not at all uncommon. In Russia this could be mistaken for gay behavior and may result in misunderstandings that could even lead to violence. There are plenty of incidents where gay or "we thought he was gay" people have been beaten in Russia. Secondly, Russias belligerence in how they're acting with the Ukraine is reason enough to keep our players out on both moral grounds and with concern to their own safety.
before I read that post I thought not going there for political reasons was idiotic. you completely changed my mind on that, I kind of forgot the whole homophobia issue due to the mindless russiabashing in the face of natural geopolitical behaviour. I am really glad you decide to not send players for the first reason though. I hope other teammanagers follow this line of argumentation and keep their players safe.
depending on the rest of the line up, I might even skip watching it.
It's just a really sad state of affairs. I have quite a lot of Russian fans, so does the team, but the safety of the players has to come first. The political reasoning isn't even that important, almost every country does something objectionable. Should we not send players to the US because of the arguably illegal wars its waged in the past or the whole spying on its own citizens thing? You'd be short on tournaments to go to if you started doing that. The homophobic violence however is a very real thing and don't count on thugs to know the difference between gay people and typical Korean male social closeness. This homophobia, pushed by those in power, is deliberately divisive. Unite the country by persecuting a minority within it, differentiate yourselves from other countries that are more accepting, utilize the galvinisation against said minority as a banner to rally behind and in turn, rally against countries who the population now perceives as different and "the enemy". It's sad that this can still work in the internet age, though I think we are getting to the point where it is losing its effectiveness. It's hard to view other people in other countries as enemies when you interact with them every day online and see that they're just another human being like us.
On August 06 2014 23:16 Xoronius wrote: And again I ask: What does that have to do with esports? This tournament is not benefitting Russia as a nation or the russian army or politics.
This kind of a situation has already happend to some musicians that went to Russia for their concerts or even to receive awards during the conflict. Now they're claimed as rats/traitors. So these players are known to what they will be called if they go. "It's just a business, nothing personal"? Yeah, and nothing patriotical also.
But that is obvious bullshit behaviour. How can you call someone a rat/traitor for doing his job, that has nothing to do with the nation itself, but only with it's people? Really sad to see, how many people are unable to differentiate Russia and the russian people (not targeted at people here, but rather at people doing the stuff Vo-one mentioned).
TB brings a valid point though, while a political boycott is still laughable, the concern for the players safety is very important. The last thing we need is players getting beaten up, because of a missinterpretation of korean culture, so on that level I can totally understand, why teams may be unwilling to send their players. Sucks for russian esports fans though, but if it is the best for the players, that comes first. So thanks to TB for bringing a rational argument in here.
On August 06 2014 23:16 Xoronius wrote: And again I ask: What does that have to do with esports? This tournament is not benefitting Russia as a nation or the russian army or politics.
This kind of a situation has already happend to some musicians that went to Russia for their concerts or even to receive awards during the conflict. Now they're claimed as rats/traitors. So these players are known to what they will be called if they go. "It's just a business, nothing personal"? Yeah, and nothing patriotical also.
But that is obvious bullshit behaviour. How can you call someone a rat/traitor for doing his job, that has nothing to do with the nation itself, but only with it's people? Really sad to see, how many people are unable to differentiate Russia and the russian people (not targeted at people here, but rather at people doing the stuff Vo-one mentioned).
TB brings a valid point though, while a political boycott is still laughable, the concern for the players safety is very important. The last thing we need is players getting beaten up, because of a missinterpretation of korean culture, so on that level I can totally understand, why teams may be unwilling to send their players. Sucks for russian esports fans though, but if it is the best for the players, that comes first. So thanks to TB for bringing a rational argument in here.
handwaving political gestures in apolitical contexts as meaningless is actually exactly what enables political machines to remain untouched and unregulated by the public they're supposed to serve... if you dont take politics outside of itself then no one knows and no one cares and no one does anything about it
you bring up a valid line of discussion but its ridiculously oversimplified to say that starcraft has nothing to do with politics and therefore any political action or protest is meaningless... we all share this world and are all affected by what goes on in it whether we are politicans or amateur gamers
On August 06 2014 23:16 Xoronius wrote: And again I ask: What does that have to do with esports? This tournament is not benefitting Russia as a nation or the russian army or politics.
This kind of a situation has already happend to some musicians that went to Russia for their concerts or even to receive awards during the conflict. Now they're claimed as rats/traitors. So these players are known to what they will be called if they go. "It's just a business, nothing personal"? Yeah, and nothing patriotical also.
But that is obvious bullshit behaviour. How can you call someone a rat/traitor for doing his job, that has nothing to do with the nation itself, but only with it's people? Really sad to see, how many people are unable to differentiate Russia and the russian people (not targeted at people here, but rather at people doing the stuff Vo-one mentioned).
TB brings a valid point though, while a political boycott is still laughable, the concern for the players safety is very important. The last thing we need is players getting beaten up, because of a missinterpretation of korean culture, so on that level I can totally understand, why teams may be unwilling to send their players. Sucks for russian esports fans though, but if it is the best for the players, that comes first. So thanks to TB for bringing a rational argument in here.
handwaving political gestures in apolitical contexts as meaningless is actually exactly what enables political machines to remain untouched and unregulated by the public they're supposed to serve... if you dont take politics outside of itself then no one knows and no one cares and no one does anything about it
you bring up a valid line of discussion but its ridiculously oversimplified to say that starcraft has nothing to do with politics and therefore any political action or protest is meaningless... we all share this world and are all affected by what goes on in it whether we are politicans or amateur gamers
Simplified, maybe, but not oversimplified to the point, where I come to the wrong conclusion. I mean sure, the local hotels (and probably bars) will make a few thousand dollars, if people come to DH, which leads to a very small boost of the russian economy, that could be taken away. Will a single russian politician care in the slightest? No. Will a boycott hurt DH financially? Probably. Will it prevent a part of the starcraft community from getting the event, they finally deserve? Certainly.
As I said in an earlier post, this is not about political gestures in general, this is about DH Moscow and this about having a realistic estimation of our size. The russian government cares about Fifa world cup 2018. The russian government cared about Sotchi 2014. The russian government does not give a fuck about DH Moscow.
Ideologically there might be the slightest of differences in the economy generated by 3 days of hotel usage. Rationally, that can totally be neglected. Rationally a political boycott of DH will not change anything in politics. Rationally a political boycott would only hurt Dreamhack and thus Starcraft in general.
On August 06 2014 21:58 Serinox wrote: Yeah, this whole "political boycott" is bullshit. Every big nation does bad shit, but that wouldn't stop anyone, especially from eSports to go to the US or China.
Yeah, wars and people dying is such a bullshit compared to really important matters like starcraft 2.
On August 06 2014 23:39 Faust852 wrote: Looks like pros don't really want to go to Russia :}
We're not sending players for a couple of reasons. Firstly, Russias rampant homophobia. Not only is it morally repugnant, but it puts our players at risk. Korean males are culturally very comfortable with being close to each other. Holding hands, sitting on others laps etc, not at all uncommon. In Russia this could be mistaken for gay behavior and may result in misunderstandings that could even lead to violence. There are plenty of incidents where gay or "we thought he was gay" people have been beaten in Russia. Secondly, Russias belligerence in how they're acting with the Ukraine is reason enough to keep our players out on both moral grounds and with concern to their own safety.
Really good to hear that and it's really important.
It just shows that Axiom is governed as professional organization, like responsible companies that withdraw their business in countries which violate modern human rights.
Having such policy is IMO just perfect way to make Esports viewed by people as more professional.
On August 06 2014 23:39 Faust852 wrote: Looks like pros don't really want to go to Russia :}
We're not sending players for a couple of reasons. Firstly, Russias rampant homophobia. Not only is it morally repugnant, but it puts our players at risk. Korean males are culturally very comfortable with being close to each other. Holding hands, sitting on others laps etc, not at all uncommon. In Russia this could be mistaken for gay behavior and may result in misunderstandings that could even lead to violence. There are plenty of incidents where gay or "we thought he was gay" people have been beaten in Russia. Secondly, Russias belligerence in how they're acting with the Ukraine is reason enough to keep our players out on both moral grounds and with concern to their own safety.
TB, I love you and your team but to read this is pretty painful.
First of all this whole "homophobia" thing is completely blew out of scale by the western media that tried to depict Russia as a country dangerous for gay people- it's not as easy as in some place like California but it's far from the worst. Your post unfortunately denotes a huge amount of ignorance on actual facts and about Russia itself, but I know it's not your fault because you're also brainwashed by western media. Russia has a huge amount of Chinese and southern east Asia visitors who - just like Koreans - act the way you described and there's never episodes like the one you describe where there's episodes that could lead to violence, especially on foreigners.
Second, the U.S. itself has some of the most homophobic states (and most racist states too) but you never hear about someone not sending players to a certain state because they're racist and homophobic there. Also, most of the allies of the U.S. (i.e. Saudi Arabia) execute homosexual people and put them in jail. Then Obama goes on TV and says he has no patience for countries that have homophobic remarks like Russia but forgets about their buddies like those middle eastern states from which they get oil from. And then someone like you thinks damn he's right and just pictures Russia as the bad guys forgetting EVERY super-power (US, Russia, China) is equally bad for different reasons. Some western people are so stupid to think to "boycott" Russia for this homophobia reason - which as I said is nothing more than a huge media thing against Russia that started pre-olympics due to tensions that were rising over Snowden and other issues - but you never see some American, UK or EU citizen boycott vacation in Dubai, despite the fact that it's a city built on slavery and where there are some of the strongest anti-gay laws. The view that one country is evil (Russia) and one is good (US, UK or whatever) just shows how much naive you are and the hilarious thing is that you're trying to come out as a good guy for boycotting Russia's event or rather, you have a valid reason not to support Russia- but really, what you're showing is your narrow fielded view. The U.S. does just as many bad things as Russia, and historically speaking have done even more. You probably must not know how things are in China- because you don't boycott there but that country is on far worst human rights ground than Russia and U.S.
Before you think I am biased because I am Russian, I want to tell you two things: One is that I lived most of my life in California, one year in the UK and the least amount itself in Russia and when I come back here I always remember how unfair Russians are treated by the rest of the west, especially lately. You are doing nothing more than a disservice for Russian fans. There's aton of Russian SC2 fans, and I know myself a lot of people who love (or maybe now loved) your team and players but reading this stuff is pretty sad and pathetic sorry. This boycott thing working just shows how good the U.S. media campaign is really, nothing more
if I was a ukranian I probably wouldn't attend a Russian tourney...then again if I wasn't American I probably would have political objections to American tourneys too. So what the fuck, let's just play sc2, I don't want to be a part of your revolution if I can't play starcraft
On August 06 2014 23:39 Faust852 wrote: Looks like pros don't really want to go to Russia :}
We're not sending players for a couple of reasons. Firstly, Russias rampant homophobia. Not only is it morally repugnant, but it puts our players at risk. Korean males are culturally very comfortable with being close to each other. Holding hands, sitting on others laps etc, not at all uncommon. In Russia this could be mistaken for gay behavior and may result in misunderstandings that could even lead to violence. There are plenty of incidents where gay or "we thought he was gay" people have been beaten in Russia. Secondly, Russias belligerence in how they're acting with the Ukraine is reason enough to keep our players out on both moral grounds and with concern to their own safety.
TB, I love you and your team but to read this is pretty painful.
First of all this whole "homophobia" thing is completely blew out of scale by the western media that tried to depict Russia as a country dangerous for gay people- it's not as easy as in some place like California but it's far from the worst. Your post unfortunately denotes a huge amount of ignorance on actual facts and about Russia itself, but I know it's not your fault because you're also brainwashed by western media. Russia has a huge amount of Chinese and southern east Asia visitors who - just like Koreans - act the way you described and there's never episodes like the one you describe where there's episodes that could lead to violence, especially on foreigners.
Second, the U.S. itself has some of the most homophobic states (and most racist states too) but you never hear about someone not sending players to a certain state because they're racist and homophobic there. Also, most of the allies of the U.S. (i.e. Saudi Arabia) execute homosexual people and put them in jail. Then Obama goes on TV and says he has no patience for countries that have homophobic remarks like Russia but forgets about their buddies like those middle eastern states from which they get oil from. And then someone like you thinks damn he's right and just pictures Russia as the bad guys forgetting EVERY super-power (US, Russia, China) is equally bad for different reasons. Some western people are so stupid to think to "boycott" Russia for this homophobia reason - which as I said is nothing more than a huge media thing against Russia that started pre-olympics due to tensions that were rising over Snowden and other issues - but you never see some American, UK or EU citizen boycott vacation in Dubai, despite the fact that it's a city built on slavery and where there are some of the strongest anti-gay laws. The view that one country is evil (Russia) and one is good (US, UK or whatever) just shows how much naive you are and the hilarious thing is that you're trying to come out as a good guy for boycotting Russia's event or rather, you have a valid reason not to support Russia- but really, what you're showing is your narrow fielded view. The U.S. does just as many bad things as Russia, and historically speaking have done even more. You probably must not know how things are in China- because you don't boycott there but that country is on far worst human rights ground than Russia and U.S.
Before you think I am biased because I am Russian, I want to tell you two things: One is that I lived most of my life in California, one year in the UK and the least amount itself in Russia and when I come back here I always remember how unfair Russians are treated by the rest of the west, especially lately. You are doing nothing more than a disservice for Russian fans. There's aton of Russian SC2 fans, and I know myself a lot of people who love (or maybe now loved) your team and players but reading this stuff is pretty sad and pathetic sorry. This boycott thing working just shows how good the U.S. media campaign is really, nothing more
I don't think hes trying to "Boycott" DH Moscow, hes just looking out for the safety and welfare of his players.
On August 06 2014 23:39 Faust852 wrote: Looks like pros don't really want to go to Russia :}
We're not sending players for a couple of reasons. Firstly, Russias rampant homophobia. Not only is it morally repugnant, but it puts our players at risk. Korean males are culturally very comfortable with being close to each other. Holding hands, sitting on others laps etc, not at all uncommon. In Russia this could be mistaken for gay behavior and may result in misunderstandings that could even lead to violence. There are plenty of incidents where gay or "we thought he was gay" people have been beaten in Russia. Secondly, Russias belligerence in how they're acting with the Ukraine is reason enough to keep our players out on both moral grounds and with concern to their own safety.
TB, I love you and your team but to read this is pretty painful.
First of all this whole "homophobia" thing is completely blew out of scale by the western media that tried to depict Russia as a country dangerous for gay people- it's not as easy as in some place like California but it's far from the worst. Your post unfortunately denotes a huge amount of ignorance on actual facts and about Russia itself, but I know it's not your fault because you're also brainwashed by western media. Russia has a huge amount of Chinese and southern east Asia visitors who - just like Koreans - act the way you described and there's never episodes like the one you describe where there's episodes that could lead to violence, especially on foreigners.
Second, the U.S. itself has some of the most homophobic states (and most racist states too) but you never hear about someone not sending players to a certain state because they're racist and homophobic there. Also, most of the allies of the U.S. (i.e. Saudi Arabia) execute homosexual people and put them in jail. Then Obama goes on TV and says he has no patience for countries that have homophobic remarks like Russia but forgets about their buddies like those middle eastern states from which they get oil from. And then someone like you thinks damn he's right and just pictures Russia as the bad guys forgetting EVERY super-power (US, Russia, China) is equally bad for different reasons. Some western people are so stupid to think to "boycott" Russia for this homophobia reason - which as I said is nothing more than a huge media thing against Russia that started pre-olympics due to tensions that were rising over Snowden and other issues - but you never see some American, UK or EU citizen boycott vacation in Dubai, despite the fact that it's a city built on slavery and where there are some of the strongest anti-gay laws. The view that one country is evil (Russia) and one is good (US, UK or whatever) just shows how much naive you are and the hilarious thing is that you're trying to come out as a good guy for boycotting Russia's event or rather, you have a valid reason not to support Russia- but really, what you're showing is your narrow fielded view. The U.S. does just as many bad things as Russia, and historically speaking have done even more. You probably must not know how things are in China- because you don't boycott there but that country is on far worst human rights ground than Russia and U.S.
Before you think I am biased because I am Russian, I want to tell you two things: One is that I lived most of my life in California, one year in the UK and the least amount itself in Russia and when I come back here I always remember how unfair Russians are treated by the rest of the west, especially lately. You are doing nothing more than a disservice for Russian fans. There's aton of Russian SC2 fans, and I know myself a lot of people who love (or maybe now loved) your team and players but reading this stuff is pretty sad and pathetic sorry. This boycott thing working just shows how good the U.S. media campaign is really, nothing more
Thanks your opinion but I'm not putting my players at risk because of some guys post on a forum.
As an FYI I absolutely would not send my players to Dubai nor ever visit there for the reasons you just mentioned, however this decision as I've already said (and you elected to ignore) has nothing to do with any kind of political boycott.
On August 06 2014 21:12 neoghaleon55 wrote: I wonder if it's scary or dangerous to go to Russia these days...
That's it. And I think someone can also think "I don't wanto to go in a nation that generate a war".
So every country on the globe?
Every country on the globe except Switzerland.
Reisläufer were pretty active around the continent... If you go far back enough you will find that every "national group" has participated in many different wars. War is as "natural" as monkeys throwing shit, lets not make it into some unnatural phenomena that isn't going around the globe constantly. I thought that travel restrictions and currency exchange caused by sanctions would be bigger issues, but I guess homophobia is a good enough reason "scapegoat"?
Notice that since World War II there was not a single war between two big democratic countries. Not a single one. We can blame all the countries in the world, USA especially, but notice that if you are quite a normal country with democraticly chosen politicians, you will not be attacked by another democratic country. However, there are some countries that do not care at all about things like democracy. Russia attacked Georgia in 2008 and now they are doing the same thing with Ukraine. I am aware of fact we can't call Ukraine 100% democratic country, as it's goverment is in power due to people's revolt, but Ukraine is surely taking steps towards democracy.
Every country in the world has it's shades. But some of them are darker than others.
What about all the other progamers? Would be nice to hear from them why they aren't attending. But then maybe dreamhack is just trolling us and the other 20 players are all top foreigners/koreans.
this thread is a mess as expected. i find it unfortunate that there are no big names in the line-up yet.
maybe pros change their mind in the next few weeks.
moscow is a wonderful city, definetely worth visiting.
TB's post. yeah sure like the russian force you to live in russia, these are three days, three days of esports, do you think russians are just waiting for these "gay" koreans to beat them up or what? this is so pathetic like really, all players will be together in an area, nerds together alone. i just can't think you were serious when you wrote this. then again none of your players have been to dh valencia either.
during that time i will be on vacation maybe i will make a trip to russia and sign up, i hope i can make it.
i also hope that the russians will be able to show their great enthusiasm and i'll be rooting for happy! Dmitry fighting!
On August 06 2014 23:39 Faust852 wrote: Looks like pros don't really want to go to Russia :}
We're not sending players for a couple of reasons. Firstly, Russias rampant homophobia. Not only is it morally repugnant, but it puts our players at risk. Korean males are culturally very comfortable with being close to each other. Holding hands, sitting on others laps etc, not at all uncommon. In Russia this could be mistaken for gay behavior and may result in misunderstandings that could even lead to violence. There are plenty of incidents where gay or "we thought he was gay" people have been beaten in Russia. Secondly, Russias belligerence in how they're acting with the Ukraine is reason enough to keep our players out on both moral grounds and with concern to their own safety.
TB, I love you and your team but to read this is pretty painful.
First of all this whole "homophobia" thing is completely blew out of scale by the western media that tried to depict Russia as a country dangerous for gay people- it's not as easy as in some place like California but it's far from the worst. Your post unfortunately denotes a huge amount of ignorance on actual facts and about Russia itself, but I know it's not your fault because you're also brainwashed by western media. Russia has a huge amount of Chinese and southern east Asia visitors who - just like Koreans - act the way you described and there's never episodes like the one you describe where there's episodes that could lead to violence, especially on foreigners.
Second, the U.S. itself has some of the most homophobic states (and most racist states too) but you never hear about someone not sending players to a certain state because they're racist and homophobic there. Also, most of the allies of the U.S. (i.e. Saudi Arabia) execute homosexual people and put them in jail. Then Obama goes on TV and says he has no patience for countries that have homophobic remarks like Russia but forgets about their buddies like those middle eastern states from which they get oil from. And then someone like you thinks damn he's right and just pictures Russia as the bad guys forgetting EVERY super-power (US, Russia, China) is equally bad for different reasons. Some western people are so stupid to think to "boycott" Russia for this homophobia reason - which as I said is nothing more than a huge media thing against Russia that started pre-olympics due to tensions that were rising over Snowden and other issues - but you never see some American, UK or EU citizen boycott vacation in Dubai, despite the fact that it's a city built on slavery and where there are some of the strongest anti-gay laws. The view that one country is evil (Russia) and one is good (US, UK or whatever) just shows how much naive you are and the hilarious thing is that you're trying to come out as a good guy for boycotting Russia's event or rather, you have a valid reason not to support Russia- but really, what you're showing is your narrow fielded view. The U.S. does just as many bad things as Russia, and historically speaking have done even more. You probably must not know how things are in China- because you don't boycott there but that country is on far worst human rights ground than Russia and U.S.
Before you think I am biased because I am Russian, I want to tell you two things: One is that I lived most of my life in California, one year in the UK and the least amount itself in Russia and when I come back here I always remember how unfair Russians are treated by the rest of the west, especially lately. You are doing nothing more than a disservice for Russian fans. There's aton of Russian SC2 fans, and I know myself a lot of people who love (or maybe now loved) your team and players but reading this stuff is pretty sad and pathetic sorry. This boycott thing working just shows how good the U.S. media campaign is really, nothing more
Thanks your opinion but I'm not putting my players at risk because of some guys post on a forum.
As an FYI I absolutely would not send my players to Dubai nor ever visit there for the reasons you just mentioned, however this decision as I've already said (and you elected to ignore) has nothing to do with any kind of political boycott.
Just a curious question - tourney in Alabama, would you send players? I watched Top Gear and lets say that did not do well for Alabama Though I still think you overreact it is your team and your responsibility and whatever, to me it is cheap excuse, but who am I, right?
On August 07 2014 03:55 KingAlphard wrote: So Axiom isn't there for political reasons, what about all the other progamers? Would be nice to hear from them why they aren't attending. But then maybe dreamhack is just trolling us and the other 20 players are all top foreigners/koreans.
What? TB just said, that it has nothing to do with politics:
On August 07 2014 03:53 TotalBiscuit wrote: [...] however this decision as I've already said (and you elected to ignore) has nothing to do with any kind of political boycott.
Please at least read the posts in here, before saying such stuff.
On August 06 2014 23:39 Faust852 wrote: Looks like pros don't really want to go to Russia :}
We're not sending players for a couple of reasons. Firstly, Russias rampant homophobia. Not only is it morally repugnant, but it puts our players at risk. Korean males are culturally very comfortable with being close to each other. Holding hands, sitting on others laps etc, not at all uncommon. In Russia this could be mistaken for gay behavior and may result in misunderstandings that could even lead to violence. There are plenty of incidents where gay or "we thought he was gay" people have been beaten in Russia. Secondly, Russias belligerence in how they're acting with the Ukraine is reason enough to keep our players out on both moral grounds and with concern to their own safety.
TB, I love you and your team but to read this is pretty painful.
First of all this whole "homophobia" thing is completely blew out of scale by the western media that tried to depict Russia as a country dangerous for gay people- it's not as easy as in some place like California but it's far from the worst. Your post unfortunately denotes a huge amount of ignorance on actual facts and about Russia itself, but I know it's not your fault because you're also brainwashed by western media. Russia has a huge amount of Chinese and southern east Asia visitors who - just like Koreans - act the way you described and there's never episodes like the one you describe where there's episodes that could lead to violence, especially on foreigners.
Second, the U.S. itself has some of the most homophobic states (and most racist states too) but you never hear about someone not sending players to a certain state because they're racist and homophobic there. Also, most of the allies of the U.S. (i.e. Saudi Arabia) execute homosexual people and put them in jail. Then Obama goes on TV and says he has no patience for countries that have homophobic remarks like Russia but forgets about their buddies like those middle eastern states from which they get oil from. And then someone like you thinks damn he's right and just pictures Russia as the bad guys forgetting EVERY super-power (US, Russia, China) is equally bad for different reasons. Some western people are so stupid to think to "boycott" Russia for this homophobia reason - which as I said is nothing more than a huge media thing against Russia that started pre-olympics due to tensions that were rising over Snowden and other issues - but you never see some American, UK or EU citizen boycott vacation in Dubai, despite the fact that it's a city built on slavery and where there are some of the strongest anti-gay laws. The view that one country is evil (Russia) and one is good (US, UK or whatever) just shows how much naive you are and the hilarious thing is that you're trying to come out as a good guy for boycotting Russia's event or rather, you have a valid reason not to support Russia- but really, what you're showing is your narrow fielded view. The U.S. does just as many bad things as Russia, and historically speaking have done even more. You probably must not know how things are in China- because you don't boycott there but that country is on far worst human rights ground than Russia and U.S.
Before you think I am biased because I am Russian, I want to tell you two things: One is that I lived most of my life in California, one year in the UK and the least amount itself in Russia and when I come back here I always remember how unfair Russians are treated by the rest of the west, especially lately. You are doing nothing more than a disservice for Russian fans. There's aton of Russian SC2 fans, and I know myself a lot of people who love (or maybe now loved) your team and players but reading this stuff is pretty sad and pathetic sorry. This boycott thing working just shows how good the U.S. media campaign is really, nothing more
I don't think hes trying to "Boycott" DH Moscow, hes just looking out for the safety and welfare of his players.
Well i don't really know if you can make a parallel but in business when you send a manager overseas he is the one that has to adapt to the local culture, he does not run the same policies as he would back home. Same goes for the players, they need to adapt ; this is how the world work. Their manager needs to tell them how Russian culture work and they can SURELY stop holding hands and such for a few days..
Also this kinda makes me sick how everyone is biased toward russia. Stop watching rutube videos and just come to moscow for a while, this isn't so bad...
On August 06 2014 23:39 Faust852 wrote: Looks like pros don't really want to go to Russia :}
We're not sending players for a couple of reasons. Firstly, Russias rampant homophobia. Not only is it morally repugnant, but it puts our players at risk. Korean males are culturally very comfortable with being close to each other. Holding hands, sitting on others laps etc, not at all uncommon. In Russia this could be mistaken for gay behavior and may result in misunderstandings that could even lead to violence. There are plenty of incidents where gay or "we thought he was gay" people have been beaten in Russia. Secondly, Russias belligerence in how they're acting with the Ukraine is reason enough to keep our players out on both moral grounds and with concern to their own safety.
TB, I love you and your team but to read this is pretty painful.
First of all this whole "homophobia" thing is completely blew out of scale by the western media that tried to depict Russia as a country dangerous for gay people- it's not as easy as in some place like California but it's far from the worst. Your post unfortunately denotes a huge amount of ignorance on actual facts and about Russia itself, but I know it's not your fault because you're also brainwashed by western media. Russia has a huge amount of Chinese and southern east Asia visitors who - just like Koreans - act the way you described and there's never episodes like the one you describe where there's episodes that could lead to violence, especially on foreigners.
Second, the U.S. itself has some of the most homophobic states (and most racist states too) but you never hear about someone not sending players to a certain state because they're racist and homophobic there. Also, most of the allies of the U.S. (i.e. Saudi Arabia) execute homosexual people and put them in jail. Then Obama goes on TV and says he has no patience for countries that have homophobic remarks like Russia but forgets about their buddies like those middle eastern states from which they get oil from. And then someone like you thinks damn he's right and just pictures Russia as the bad guys forgetting EVERY super-power (US, Russia, China) is equally bad for different reasons. Some western people are so stupid to think to "boycott" Russia for this homophobia reason - which as I said is nothing more than a huge media thing against Russia that started pre-olympics due to tensions that were rising over Snowden and other issues - but you never see some American, UK or EU citizen boycott vacation in Dubai, despite the fact that it's a city built on slavery and where there are some of the strongest anti-gay laws. The view that one country is evil (Russia) and one is good (US, UK or whatever) just shows how much naive you are and the hilarious thing is that you're trying to come out as a good guy for boycotting Russia's event or rather, you have a valid reason not to support Russia- but really, what you're showing is your narrow fielded view. The U.S. does just as many bad things as Russia, and historically speaking have done even more. You probably must not know how things are in China- because you don't boycott there but that country is on far worst human rights ground than Russia and U.S.
Before you think I am biased because I am Russian, I want to tell you two things: One is that I lived most of my life in California, one year in the UK and the least amount itself in Russia and when I come back here I always remember how unfair Russians are treated by the rest of the west, especially lately. You are doing nothing more than a disservice for Russian fans. There's aton of Russian SC2 fans, and I know myself a lot of people who love (or maybe now loved) your team and players but reading this stuff is pretty sad and pathetic sorry. This boycott thing working just shows how good the U.S. media campaign is really, nothing more
I don't think hes trying to "Boycott" DH Moscow, hes just looking out for the safety and welfare of his players.
Well i don't really know if you can make a parallel but in business when you send a manager overseas he is the one that has to adapt to the local culture, he does not run the same policies as he would back home. Same goes for the players, they need to adapt ; this is how the world work. Their manager needs to tell them how Russian culture work and they can SURELY stop holding hands and such for a few days..
Also this kinda makes me sick how everyone is biased toward russia. Stop watching rutube videos and just come to moscow for a while, this isn't so bad...
On August 07 2014 03:55 KingAlphard wrote: What about all the other progamers? Would be nice to hear from them why they aren't attending. But then maybe dreamhack is just trolling us and the other 20 players are all top foreigners/koreans.
I am happy that there are so many Russian players, imagine DH in NA, how many US players would be there? Europe holds!
On August 07 2014 03:54 Cinek357 wrote: Notice that since World War II there was not a single war between two big democratic countries. Not a single one. We can blame all the countries in the world, USA especially, but notice that if you are quite a normal country with democraticly chosen politicians, you will not be attacked by another democratic country. However, there are some countries that do not care at all about things like democracy. Russia attacked Georgia in 2008 and now they are doing the same thing with Ukraine. I am aware of fact we can't call Ukraine 100% democratic country, as it's goverment is in power due to people's revolt, but Ukraine is surely taking steps towards democracy.
Every country in the world has it's shades. But some of them are darker than others.
Wasn't it proven that Georgia attacked? During war CNN was saying all the time that russia attacked agaisnt peaceful nation that wanted to join NATO. After war CNN also said that it was Georgia who attacked.
On August 06 2014 23:39 Faust852 wrote: Looks like pros don't really want to go to Russia :}
We're not sending players for a couple of reasons. Firstly, Russias rampant homophobia. Not only is it morally repugnant, but it puts our players at risk. Korean males are culturally very comfortable with being close to each other. Holding hands, sitting on others laps etc, not at all uncommon. In Russia this could be mistaken for gay behavior and may result in misunderstandings that could even lead to violence. There are plenty of incidents where gay or "we thought he was gay" people have been beaten in Russia. Secondly, Russias belligerence in how they're acting with the Ukraine is reason enough to keep our players out on both moral grounds and with concern to their own safety.
TB, I love you and your team but to read this is pretty painful.
First of all this whole "homophobia" thing is completely blew out of scale by the western media that tried to depict Russia as a country dangerous for gay people- it's not as easy as in some place like California but it's far from the worst. Your post unfortunately denotes a huge amount of ignorance on actual facts and about Russia itself, but I know it's not your fault because you're also brainwashed by western media. Russia has a huge amount of Chinese and southern east Asia visitors who - just like Koreans - act the way you described and there's never episodes like the one you describe where there's episodes that could lead to violence, especially on foreigners.
Second, the U.S. itself has some of the most homophobic states (and most racist states too) but you never hear about someone not sending players to a certain state because they're racist and homophobic there. Also, most of the allies of the U.S. (i.e. Saudi Arabia) execute homosexual people and put them in jail. Then Obama goes on TV and says he has no patience for countries that have homophobic remarks like Russia but forgets about their buddies like those middle eastern states from which they get oil from. And then someone like you thinks damn he's right and just pictures Russia as the bad guys forgetting EVERY super-power (US, Russia, China) is equally bad for different reasons. Some western people are so stupid to think to "boycott" Russia for this homophobia reason - which as I said is nothing more than a huge media thing against Russia that started pre-olympics due to tensions that were rising over Snowden and other issues - but you never see some American, UK or EU citizen boycott vacation in Dubai, despite the fact that it's a city built on slavery and where there are some of the strongest anti-gay laws. The view that one country is evil (Russia) and one is good (US, UK or whatever) just shows how much naive you are and the hilarious thing is that you're trying to come out as a good guy for boycotting Russia's event or rather, you have a valid reason not to support Russia- but really, what you're showing is your narrow fielded view. The U.S. does just as many bad things as Russia, and historically speaking have done even more. You probably must not know how things are in China- because you don't boycott there but that country is on far worst human rights ground than Russia and U.S.
Before you think I am biased because I am Russian, I want to tell you two things: One is that I lived most of my life in California, one year in the UK and the least amount itself in Russia and when I come back here I always remember how unfair Russians are treated by the rest of the west, especially lately. You are doing nothing more than a disservice for Russian fans. There's aton of Russian SC2 fans, and I know myself a lot of people who love (or maybe now loved) your team and players but reading this stuff is pretty sad and pathetic sorry. This boycott thing working just shows how good the U.S. media campaign is really, nothing more
I don't think hes trying to "Boycott" DH Moscow, hes just looking out for the safety and welfare of his players.
Well i don't really know if you can make a parallel but in business when you send a manager overseas he is the one that has to adapt to the local culture, he does not run the same policies as he would back home. Same goes for the players, they need to adapt ; this is how the world work. Their manager needs to tell them how Russian culture work and they can SURELY stop holding hands and such for a few days..
Also this kinda makes me sick how everyone is biased toward russia. Stop watching rutube videos and just come to moscow for a while, this isn't so bad...
Do you think having to adapt to a different culture out of fear of being physically hurt otherwise is fine?
Now, I'm not saying that's necessarily the case - I don't know how people would react if a few men held hands or cuddled in the middle of Moscow, but the prospect of having to act differently from how you normally do because someone might hurt you otherwise isn't exactly a good incentive to go.
has nothing to do with any kind of political boycott.
*flips a fucking table and walks out*
This is why people think transparency is a bad idea, it's better to say nothing at all.
TB, I know we weren't always on the same side in different discussions, but should I have ever been so obviously wrong to you, I want to deeply apologize for that.
On August 06 2014 23:39 Faust852 wrote: Looks like pros don't really want to go to Russia :}
We're not sending players for a couple of reasons. Firstly, Russias rampant homophobia. Not only is it morally repugnant, but it puts our players at risk. Korean males are culturally very comfortable with being close to each other. Holding hands, sitting on others laps etc, not at all uncommon. In Russia this could be mistaken for gay behavior and may result in misunderstandings that could even lead to violence. There are plenty of incidents where gay or "we thought he was gay" people have been beaten in Russia. Secondly, Russias belligerence in how they're acting with the Ukraine is reason enough to keep our players out on both moral grounds and with concern to their own safety.
TB, I love you and your team but to read this is pretty painful.
First of all this whole "homophobia" thing is completely blew out of scale by the western media that tried to depict Russia as a country dangerous for gay people- it's not as easy as in some place like California but it's far from the worst. Your post unfortunately denotes a huge amount of ignorance on actual facts and about Russia itself, but I know it's not your fault because you're also brainwashed by western media. Russia has a huge amount of Chinese and southern east Asia visitors who - just like Koreans - act the way you described and there's never episodes like the one you describe where there's episodes that could lead to violence, especially on foreigners.
Second, the U.S. itself has some of the most homophobic states (and most racist states too) but you never hear about someone not sending players to a certain state because they're racist and homophobic there. Also, most of the allies of the U.S. (i.e. Saudi Arabia) execute homosexual people and put them in jail. Then Obama goes on TV and says he has no patience for countries that have homophobic remarks like Russia but forgets about their buddies like those middle eastern states from which they get oil from. And then someone like you thinks damn he's right and just pictures Russia as the bad guys forgetting EVERY super-power (US, Russia, China) is equally bad for different reasons. Some western people are so stupid to think to "boycott" Russia for this homophobia reason - which as I said is nothing more than a huge media thing against Russia that started pre-olympics due to tensions that were rising over Snowden and other issues - but you never see some American, UK or EU citizen boycott vacation in Dubai, despite the fact that it's a city built on slavery and where there are some of the strongest anti-gay laws. The view that one country is evil (Russia) and one is good (US, UK or whatever) just shows how much naive you are and the hilarious thing is that you're trying to come out as a good guy for boycotting Russia's event or rather, you have a valid reason not to support Russia- but really, what you're showing is your narrow fielded view. The U.S. does just as many bad things as Russia, and historically speaking have done even more. You probably must not know how things are in China- because you don't boycott there but that country is on far worst human rights ground than Russia and U.S.
Before you think I am biased because I am Russian, I want to tell you two things: One is that I lived most of my life in California, one year in the UK and the least amount itself in Russia and when I come back here I always remember how unfair Russians are treated by the rest of the west, especially lately. You are doing nothing more than a disservice for Russian fans. There's aton of Russian SC2 fans, and I know myself a lot of people who love (or maybe now loved) your team and players but reading this stuff is pretty sad and pathetic sorry. This boycott thing working just shows how good the U.S. media campaign is really, nothing more
I don't think hes trying to "Boycott" DH Moscow, hes just looking out for the safety and welfare of his players.
Well i don't really know if you can make a parallel but in business when you send a manager overseas he is the one that has to adapt to the local culture, he does not run the same policies as he would back home. Same goes for the players, they need to adapt ; this is how the world work. Their manager needs to tell them how Russian culture work and they can SURELY stop holding hands and such for a few days..
Also this kinda makes me sick how everyone is biased toward russia. Stop watching rutube videos and just come to moscow for a while, this isn't so bad...
Or y'know we could just, not send them instead.
Indeed, but its a bit disappointing considering AX player rooster caliber.
On August 07 2014 03:55 KingAlphard wrote: So Axiom isn't there for political reasons, what about all the other progamers? Would be nice to hear from them why they aren't attending. But then maybe dreamhack is just trolling us and the other 20 players are all top foreigners/koreans.
What? TB just said, that it has nothing to do with politics:
On August 07 2014 03:53 TotalBiscuit wrote: [...] however this decision as I've already said (and you elected to ignore) has nothing to do with any kind of political boycott.
Please at least read the posts in here, before saying such stuff.
I read the whole post. I didn't mean political boycott, homophobia in a specific country has to do with politics, that's what I meant. I edited the post anyway, but sorry if it sounded ambiguous.
On August 07 2014 03:55 KingAlphard wrote: So Axiom isn't there for political reasons, what about all the other progamers? Would be nice to hear from them why they aren't attending. But then maybe dreamhack is just trolling us and the other 20 players are all top foreigners/koreans.
What? TB just said, that it has nothing to do with politics:
On August 07 2014 03:53 TotalBiscuit wrote: [...] however this decision as I've already said (and you elected to ignore) has nothing to do with any kind of political boycott.
Please at least read the posts in here, before saying such stuff.
I read the whole post. I didn't mean political boycott, homophobia in a specific country has to do with politics, that's what I meant. I edited the post anyway, but sorry if it sounded ambiguous.
On August 07 2014 03:55 KingAlphard wrote: So Axiom isn't there for political reasons, what about all the other progamers? Would be nice to hear from them why they aren't attending. But then maybe dreamhack is just trolling us and the other 20 players are all top foreigners/koreans.
What? TB just said, that it has nothing to do with politics:
On August 07 2014 03:53 TotalBiscuit wrote: [...] however this decision as I've already said (and you elected to ignore) has nothing to do with any kind of political boycott.
Please at least read the posts in here, before saying such stuff.
I read the whole post. I didn't mean political boycott, homophobia in a specific country has to do with politics, that's what I meant. I edited the post anyway, but sorry if it sounded ambiguous.
Homophobia is not a political issue anymore than racism is. It's just bigotry, simple as that. It's not something you can debate. Gay marriage is a political issue. Beating gay people in the street is just hatred.
On August 06 2014 23:39 Faust852 wrote: Looks like pros don't really want to go to Russia :}
We're not sending players for a couple of reasons. Firstly, Russias rampant homophobia. Not only is it morally repugnant, but it puts our players at risk. Korean males are culturally very comfortable with being close to each other. Holding hands, sitting on others laps etc, not at all uncommon. In Russia this could be mistaken for gay behavior and may result in misunderstandings that could even lead to violence. There are plenty of incidents where gay or "we thought he was gay" people have been beaten in Russia. Secondly, Russias belligerence in how they're acting with the Ukraine is reason enough to keep our players out on both moral grounds and with concern to their own safety.
TB, I love you and your team but to read this is pretty painful.
First of all this whole "homophobia" thing is completely blew out of scale by the western media that tried to depict Russia as a country dangerous for gay people- it's not as easy as in some place like California but it's far from the worst. Your post unfortunately denotes a huge amount of ignorance on actual facts and about Russia itself, but I know it's not your fault because you're also brainwashed by western media. Russia has a huge amount of Chinese and southern east Asia visitors who - just like Koreans - act the way you described and there's never episodes like the one you describe where there's episodes that could lead to violence, especially on foreigners.
Second, the U.S. itself has some of the most homophobic states (and most racist states too) but you never hear about someone not sending players to a certain state because they're racist and homophobic there. Also, most of the allies of the U.S. (i.e. Saudi Arabia) execute homosexual people and put them in jail. Then Obama goes on TV and says he has no patience for countries that have homophobic remarks like Russia but forgets about their buddies like those middle eastern states from which they get oil from. And then someone like you thinks damn he's right and just pictures Russia as the bad guys forgetting EVERY super-power (US, Russia, China) is equally bad for different reasons. Some western people are so stupid to think to "boycott" Russia for this homophobia reason - which as I said is nothing more than a huge media thing against Russia that started pre-olympics due to tensions that were rising over Snowden and other issues - but you never see some American, UK or EU citizen boycott vacation in Dubai, despite the fact that it's a city built on slavery and where there are some of the strongest anti-gay laws. The view that one country is evil (Russia) and one is good (US, UK or whatever) just shows how much naive you are and the hilarious thing is that you're trying to come out as a good guy for boycotting Russia's event or rather, you have a valid reason not to support Russia- but really, what you're showing is your narrow fielded view. The U.S. does just as many bad things as Russia, and historically speaking have done even more. You probably must not know how things are in China- because you don't boycott there but that country is on far worst human rights ground than Russia and U.S.
Before you think I am biased because I am Russian, I want to tell you two things: One is that I lived most of my life in California, one year in the UK and the least amount itself in Russia and when I come back here I always remember how unfair Russians are treated by the rest of the west, especially lately. You are doing nothing more than a disservice for Russian fans. There's aton of Russian SC2 fans, and I know myself a lot of people who love (or maybe now loved) your team and players but reading this stuff is pretty sad and pathetic sorry. This boycott thing working just shows how good the U.S. media campaign is really, nothing more
Thanks your opinion but I'm not putting my players at risk because of some guys post on a forum.
As an FYI I absolutely would not send my players to Dubai nor ever visit there for the reasons you just mentioned, however this decision as I've already said (and you elected to ignore) has nothing to do with any kind of political boycott.
For sure, I am not here trying to convince you otherwise (i.e. send the players because I said so). I just wanted to point out that your opinion comes from wrong/biased facts that are not accurate and hence you're trying to do something (protecting your players) from a completely non existent threat. Of course me posting won't make you change your mind I am aware of that, and that's why I think the media machine does a very good job. As someone who is constantly in the U.S. and Russia I can see how my American friends are completely brainwashed about what Russia or Russians are like. I am disappointed you are too but I realize it's not your fault, probably you just listen to all the media bullshit that gets spit out and trust it. I am disappointed because I am an Axiom fan and to read that you want to try to take care of a non existing reason it's sad and hilarious at the same time.
I hope things will ease out between Russia and U.S. in the next year and hopefully if there's another event you are gonna send the players there. Russia has a HUGE sc2 playerbase and fanbase and if EU in particular took better care of it the viewing numbers would be a lot better. Lastly, I would like to tell you that your players here would probably get the opposite of what you think, Russians are some of the most welcoming and friendly people with foreigners ever.
Good you mentioned Dubai, what about China then? They execute people there all the time for no reason, murder and kidnap people for illegal organ trades, internet and media is censored, etc. there's so much wrong shit going on in China it makes the U.S. and Russia look almost clean- but never seen the Sc2 community boycott there... wonder why? Because the U.S. has only been blasting its propaganda machine against Russia for almost one year or so now and people see Russia as the bad guy, when in fact, most big super powers are bad and some way worst (like China) but people are not aware or don't think about it.
I will still support your players and Heart in particular, but I am sure you lost many Russian fans for your decision, which I am sure you perhaps don't care much but it's sad to see so much misinformation coming on your end. Best of luck to the team and congrats on the new sponsor.
On August 07 2014 03:55 KingAlphard wrote: So Axiom isn't there for political reasons, what about all the other progamers? Would be nice to hear from them why they aren't attending. But then maybe dreamhack is just trolling us and the other 20 players are all top foreigners/koreans.
What? TB just said, that it has nothing to do with politics:
On August 07 2014 03:53 TotalBiscuit wrote: [...] however this decision as I've already said (and you elected to ignore) has nothing to do with any kind of political boycott.
Please at least read the posts in here, before saying such stuff.
I read the whole post. I didn't mean political boycott, homophobia in a specific country has to do with politics that's what I meant. I edited the post anyway, but sorry if it sounded ambiguous.
Dw, everyone overreads stuff sometimes. But tbh. reading TB's answer in his voice and the tone, he would probably said it in was definitly worth it, so thank you for the original post I guess. To your original question: Dh has done the same thing before, not revealing their headliners in the first batch. Maybe it is to lure a few more good people into the tourney, when they see this lineup and then announcing all of those simultaniously.
Really unfortunate that the first big international sc2 event in Moscow will be happening under these circumstances. The absence of a visa free regime between EU and Russia doesn't help either.
On August 06 2014 23:39 Faust852 wrote: Looks like pros don't really want to go to Russia :}
We're not sending players for a couple of reasons. Firstly, Russias rampant homophobia. Not only is it morally repugnant, but it puts our players at risk. Korean males are culturally very comfortable with being close to each other. Holding hands, sitting on others laps etc, not at all uncommon. In Russia this could be mistaken for gay behavior and may result in misunderstandings that could even lead to violence. There are plenty of incidents where gay or "we thought he was gay" people have been beaten in Russia. Secondly, Russias belligerence in how they're acting with the Ukraine is reason enough to keep our players out on both moral grounds and with concern to their own safety.
EDIT: Since this is now linked on Reddit and they probably won't read my followup post. I'm reposting that here.
It's just a really sad state of affairs. I have quite a lot of Russian fans, so does the team, but the safety of the players has to come first. The political reasoning isn't even that important, almost every country does something objectionable. Should we not send players to the US because of the arguably illegal wars its waged in the past or the whole spying on its own citizens thing? You'd be short on tournaments to go to if you started doing that. The homophobic violence however is a very real thing and don't count on thugs to know the difference between gay people and typical Korean male social closeness. This homophobia, pushed by those in power, is deliberately divisive. Unite the country by persecuting a minority within it, differentiate yourselves from other countries that are more accepting, utilize the galvinisation against said minority as a banner to rally behind and in turn, rally against countries who the population now perceives as different and "the enemy". It's sad that this can still work in the internet age, though I think we are getting to the point where it is losing its effectiveness. It's hard to view other people in other countries as enemies when you interact with them every day online and see that they're just another human being like us.
So the primary reason for not sending our players is the safety concern. If we had someone on the ground who spoke Russian that we could trust we would probably be more open to the idea, but we don't, so we'd rather not send our players into that environment. Not sending our players should not be considered a boycott of the event, we just want to risk our players well-being when there are other events they could attend that don't carry those risks.
What is this talk of Moscow? The title of most dangerous Esports hood still belongs to Krefeld, especially for Brits like you.
When I lived in Novosibirsk, Russia, all of the Koreans never felt really safe. Afraid of walking by themselves and being attacked because they are asian, but nothing ever happened. Yes, Russia can be dangerous, but so can anywhere. You just need to be consciously aware of your surroundings. I honestly feel like nothing would happen to the Axiom players if they went, but if TB wants to play it safe, then let him play it safe. Better safe than sorry.
On August 07 2014 01:01 TotalBiscuit wrote: Secondly, Russias belligerence in how they're acting with the Ukraine is reason enough to keep our players out on both moral grounds and with concern to their own safety.
Thank you for you support, TB. You mentioned specifically that it's not your primary reason for DH boycott, but still, that means a lot. I've been your fan since Blue Plz! and I also know people from Donetsk who lost their homes after artillery strikes. Some people will tell you that all of this is Ukraine's fault. I'm glad you're not listening to them.
If the player level will be this, this event doesn't deserve WCS points. I mean, this seems a major/minor tournment, not a Premier tournament.I hope some korean will join, or there will not be reasons to really watch this event
Makes me kinda sad that there is not a single fellow russian here who would be vouched for by enough staff members to sway TB's decision...
Oh well, for future reference, you can pretty much consider Russia to be a big mountain, rising towards freedom, with Moscow on top and some high-income cities somewhere near, and the rest just goes downhill. And our lovely goverment, which is supposed to help it to grow, relentlessly chips it down... And the People rejoice. kinda depressing...
I hope some oligarch's kid is really into SC2 and would get his daddy to pay off life/bomber/taeja/mkp/anyone to come ^_^
On August 07 2014 04:19 NewTypeBeez wrote: When I lived in Novosibirsk, Russia, all of the Koreans never felt really safe. Afraid of walking by themselves and being attacked because they are asian, but nothing ever happened. Yes, Russia can be dangerous, but so can anywhere. You just need to be consciously aware of your surroundings. I honestly feel like nothing would happen to the Axiom players if they went, but if TB wants to play it safe, then let him play it safe. Better safe than sorry.
This is a huge lie and straight up bullshit - sorry but you're either lying or completely ignorant.
Novosibirsk and Siberia in general is FILLED with Asian looking Russians, because the further east you go into Siberia the more people are 100% Asians. Russian regions like Yakutsk, while being Siberia/Russia are entirely made up of asian looking people. While Novosibirsk is still in the mostly-white part of Siberia being central - it has a HUGE amount of people from Yakutsk and Khazhakstan who look asian. So saying that Korean never felt safe in a place full of Asian Russians is probably one of the biggest bullshit I could read all day. I lived in NSK and my gf is from there, go there all the time, seeing Asian looking people in Siberia is the most common thing in the universe. In fact, it would be very hard to distinguish between the Russians and the Korean/Chinese. When I was there a Chinese friend of mine was being approached and people were speaking in Russian to him all the time assuming he was from Siberia.
Mod, I know you asked to not talk about "political" stuff, not sure if this could be counted as such, but I felt I had to inform people about this, because someone coming here can read this post and actually believe this guy. What he wrote is straight up incorrect/false or this guy is lying/trolling. Anyone who has been to Novosibirsk can confirm this.
The worst that can happen is someone robbing you and that chance is probably super low since the places according to streetview looks like an area with quite some people travelling around. Even if it comes to robbing the people who are doing it probably need the money more than you do. Also you can contact other people and travel in bigger groups from hotel to venue if you are really paranoid.
And as for this TB/Axiom thing... I can understand, but I think it's a bit of a overreaction, and I have a hard time believing that any danger would actually come to his players, but it sort of makes sense. I would think that Russia, which gets lots of Asian tourists, would be use to the general closeness between males prominent in their cultures, but I don't know for sure. I've never been there myself. But it's not like any of the players would be in the Russian boonies, they'd be in downtown Moscow where I'm pretty sure they'd not want any harm to come to tourists. I think a full boycott or avoidance of the event kind of is unneccissary but it's his call. It's just kind of a bad situation I suppose. I'd personally love to see those players there.
On August 07 2014 04:19 NewTypeBeez wrote: When I lived in Novosibirsk, Russia, all of the Koreans never felt really safe. Afraid of walking by themselves and being attacked because they are asian, but nothing ever happened. Yes, Russia can be dangerous, but so can anywhere. You just need to be consciously aware of your surroundings. I honestly feel like nothing would happen to the Axiom players if they went, but if TB wants to play it safe, then let him play it safe. Better safe than sorry.
This is a huge lie and straight up bullshit - sorry but you're either lying or completely ignorant.
Novosibirsk and Siberia in general is FILLED with Asian looking Russians, because the further east you go into Siberia the more people are 100% Asians. Russian regions like Yakutsk, while being Siberia/Russia are entirely made up of asian looking people. While Novosibirsk is still in the mostly-white part of Siberia being central - it has a HUGE amount of people from Yakutsk and Khazhakstan who look asian. So saying that Korean never felt safe in a place full of Asian Russians is probably one of the biggest bullshit I could read all day. I lived in NSK and my gf is from there, go there all the time, seeing Asian looking people in Siberia is the most common thing in the universe. In fact, it would be very hard to distinguish between the Russians and the Korean/Chinese. When I was there a Chinese friend of mine was being approached and people were speaking in Russian to him all the time assuming he was from Siberia.
Mod, I know you asked to not talk about "political" stuff, not sure if this could be counted as such, but I felt I had to inform people about this, because someone coming here can read this post and actually believe this guy. What he wrote is straight up incorrect/false or this guy is lying/trolling. Anyone who has been to Novosibirsk can confirm this.
Братан, Новосиб состоит на 90% из таких же белых людей как в Москве // Bro, Novosibirsk is 90% ethnic russian people, pretty much like in Moscow Misscommunication and lack of basic googling skills is amusing)
It is a great tragedy, that while Russians are awesome and passionate people, their government is on a verge of starting WWIII. I love you guys, but boycotting DH Moscow is, albeit small, way to demonstrate that Russian actions are not acceptable for a modern country.
On August 07 2014 04:19 NewTypeBeez wrote: When I lived in Novosibirsk, Russia, all of the Koreans never felt really safe. Afraid of walking by themselves and being attacked because they are asian, but nothing ever happened. Yes, Russia can be dangerous, but so can anywhere. You just need to be consciously aware of your surroundings. I honestly feel like nothing would happen to the Axiom players if they went, but if TB wants to play it safe, then let him play it safe. Better safe than sorry.
This is a huge lie and straight up bullshit - sorry but you're either lying or completely ignorant.
Novosibirsk and Siberia in general is FILLED with Asian looking Russians, because the further east you go into Siberia the more people are 100% Asians. Russian regions like Yakutsk, while being Siberia/Russia are entirely made up of asian looking people. While Novosibirsk is still in the mostly-white part of Siberia being central - it has a HUGE amount of people from Yakutsk and Khazhakstan who look asian. So saying that Korean never felt safe in a place full of Asian Russians is probably one of the biggest bullshit I could read all day. I lived in NSK and my gf is from there, go there all the time, seeing Asian looking people in Siberia is the most common thing in the universe. In fact, it would be very hard to distinguish between the Russians and the Korean/Chinese. When I was there a Chinese friend of mine was being approached and people were speaking in Russian to him all the time assuming he was from Siberia.
Mod, I know you asked to not talk about "political" stuff, not sure if this could be counted as such, but I felt I had to inform people about this, because someone coming here can read this post and actually believe this guy. What he wrote is straight up incorrect/false or this guy is lying/trolling. Anyone who has been to Novosibirsk can confirm this.
Братан, Новосиб состоит на 90% из таких же белых людей как в Москве Misscommunication and lack of basic googling skills is amusing)
User was warned for this post
в Москве полно ребят из Якутии тоже. Думаю, их здесь много.
Anyway, I will stop posting about this but it's kind of absurd to see how much people are badly informed or straight up lie like that guy I quoted above. It's kind of hard to read so much bs meh :/
Best of luck to all the players and since I will actually leave Moscow after 2 days after DH happens, I will definitely attend.
On August 07 2014 04:33 crow_mw wrote: It is a great tragedy, that while Russians are awesome and passionate people, their government is on a verge of starting WWIII. I love you guys, but boycotting DH Moscow is, albeit small, way to demonstrate that Russian actions are not acceptable for a modern country.
To call a boycott like this small in an understatement. I think to the general populous of Russia it's completely laughable. It doesn't demonstrate anything, it hurts DH and SC2 more than anything else. Again, I don't want to say TB is in the wrong here, I just think it's not necessary at all.
On August 07 2014 04:33 crow_mw wrote: It is a great tragedy, that while Russians are awesome and passionate people, their government is on a verge of starting WWIII. I love you guys, but boycotting DH Moscow is, albeit small, way to demonstrate that Russian actions are not acceptable for a modern country.
To call a boycott like this small in an understatement. I think to the general populous of Russia it's completely laughable. It doesn't demonstrate anything, it hurts DH and SC2 more than anything else. Again, I don't want to say TB is in the wrong here, I just think it's not necessary at all.
On August 07 2014 04:33 crow_mw wrote: It is a great tragedy, that while Russians are awesome and passionate people, their government is on a verge of starting WWIII. I love you guys, but boycotting DH Moscow is, albeit small, way to demonstrate that Russian actions are not acceptable for a modern country.
To call a boycott like this small in an understatement. I think to the general populous of Russia it's completely laughable. It doesn't demonstrate anything, it hurts DH and SC2 more than anything else. Again, I don't want to say TB is in the wrong here, I just think it's not necessary at all.
I respectfully disagree, but hey, happy birthday.
That's fine, I totally understand. And thank you very much.
On August 07 2014 04:33 crow_mw wrote: It is a great tragedy, that while Russians are awesome and passionate people, their government is on a verge of starting WWIII. I love you guys, but boycotting DH Moscow is, albeit small, way to demonstrate that Russian actions are not acceptable for a modern country.
To call a boycott like this small in an understatement. I think to the general populous of Russia it's completely laughable. It doesn't demonstrate anything, it hurts DH and SC2 more than anything else. Again, I don't want to say TB is in the wrong here, I just think it's not necessary at all.
Yeah but DH moscow was a stupid idea to begin with tbh, you don't do an event on a country which make the 1st page of every newspapers for 6 months. Next we will see DH Jerusalem ? Lol.
Anyway, the tournament looks crappy, I probably won't watch it. There is the same tournament every week with Go4sc2 and Zotacs.
On August 06 2014 21:12 neoghaleon55 wrote: I wonder if it's scary or dangerous to go to Russia these days...
That's it. And I think someone can also think "I don't wanto to go in a nation that generate a war".
The US has a finger in most armed conflicts on this planet, but it wouldn't keep me from going to Washington DC. : P
Russia has more than a finger in Ukraine, they've committed quite a few bodies, serious armaments, and absorbed Crimea.
yes we know this can we agree that noone is holy in this world and just move on talk about the actual GAME and the PLAYERS? the thing that unites us in this forum is actually the game not the hatred towards other nationalities, you might see a little note by the mods at the top of the page. so maybe we could finally stop this stuff.
there's an extra part in this forum for general things that happen in life you can go there and discuss politics the whole day
Lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) people in South Korea face legal challenges and discrimination not experienced by non-LGBT residents. Male and female same-sex sexual activity is legal in South Korea, but same-sex couples and households headed by same-sex couples are currently not entitled to the same legal protections available to heterosexuals.
On August 07 2014 04:33 crow_mw wrote: It is a great tragedy, that while Russians are awesome and passionate people, their government is on a verge of starting WWIII. I love you guys, but boycotting DH Moscow is, albeit small, way to demonstrate that Russian actions are not acceptable for a modern country.
To call a boycott like this small in an understatement. I think to the general populous of Russia it's completely laughable. It doesn't demonstrate anything, it hurts DH and SC2 more than anything else. Again, I don't want to say TB is in the wrong here, I just think it's not necessary at all.
Yeah but DH moscow was a stupid idea to begin with tbh, you don't do an event on a country which make the 1st page of every newspapers for 6 months. Next we will see DH Jerusalem ? Lol.
Anyway, the tournament looks crappy, I probably won't watch it. There is the same tournament every week with Go4sc2 and Zotacs.
To be fair, DH Moscow was announced way before Kiev turned into an urban warfare.
On August 07 2014 04:33 crow_mw wrote: It is a great tragedy, that while Russians are awesome and passionate people, their government is on a verge of starting WWIII. I love you guys, but boycotting DH Moscow is, albeit small, way to demonstrate that Russian actions are not acceptable for a modern country.
To call a boycott like this small in an understatement. I think to the general populous of Russia it's completely laughable. It doesn't demonstrate anything, it hurts DH and SC2 more than anything else. Again, I don't want to say TB is in the wrong here, I just think it's not necessary at all.
Yeah but DH moscow was a stupid idea to begin with tbh, you don't do an event on a country which make the 1st page of every newspapers for 6 months. Next we will see DH Jerusalem ? Lol.
Anyway, the tournament looks crappy, I probably won't watch it. There is the same tournament every week with Go4sc2 and Zotacs.
To be fair, DH Moscow was announced way before Kiev turned into an urban warfare.
On August 07 2014 04:57 Cinek357 wrote: I thought DH Moscow was announced during riots in Kiev. Now I feel bad for Dreamhack, no one could predict such events to happen in near future.
I mean it was already being criticised because of their laws against "Homosexual Propaganda" back then. The whole Ukraine conflict that now happenend in between isn't really helping things.
On August 07 2014 04:19 NewTypeBeez wrote: When I lived in Novosibirsk, Russia, all of the Koreans never felt really safe. Afraid of walking by themselves and being attacked because they are asian, but nothing ever happened. Yes, Russia can be dangerous, but so can anywhere. You just need to be consciously aware of your surroundings. I honestly feel like nothing would happen to the Axiom players if they went, but if TB wants to play it safe, then let him play it safe. Better safe than sorry.
This is a huge lie and straight up bullshit - sorry but you're either lying or completely ignorant.
Novosibirsk and Siberia in general is FILLED with Asian looking Russians, because the further east you go into Siberia the more people are 100% Asians. Russian regions like Yakutsk, while being Siberia/Russia are entirely made up of asian looking people. While Novosibirsk is still in the mostly-white part of Siberia being central - it has a HUGE amount of people from Yakutsk and Khazhakstan who look asian. So saying that Korean never felt safe in a place full of Asian Russians is probably one of the biggest bullshit I could read all day. I lived in NSK and my gf is from there, go there all the time, seeing Asian looking people in Siberia is the most common thing in the universe. In fact, it would be very hard to distinguish between the Russians and the Korean/Chinese. When I was there a Chinese friend of mine was being approached and people were speaking in Russian to him all the time assuming he was from Siberia.
Mod, I know you asked to not talk about "political" stuff, not sure if this could be counted as such, but I felt I had to inform people about this, because someone coming here can read this post and actually believe this guy. What he wrote is straight up incorrect/false or this guy is lying/trolling. Anyone who has been to Novosibirsk can confirm this.
Братан, Новосиб состоит на 90% из таких же белых людей как в Москве Misscommunication and lack of basic googling skills is amusing)
User was warned for this post
в Москве полно ребят из Якутии тоже. Думаю, их здесь много.
Anyway, I will stop posting about this but it's kind of absurd to see how much people are badly informed or straight up lie like that guy I quoted above. It's kind of hard to read so much bs meh :/
Best of luck to all the players and since I will actually leave Moscow after 2 days after DH happens, I will definitely attend.
User was warned for this post
I did live in Novosibirsk, and I am not lying. I'm just telling you what the Korean students told me. I know Japanese girls who lived in the city center had a 10x better experience, but I pm'd you to discuss like human beings. Don't freak out and just off people as not telling the truth. I loved Russia.
The lineup of players look fairly weak though Hope the second announcement has some treats for us. Interesting to see Adonminus, wonder how he will do.
On August 07 2014 03:55 KingAlphard wrote: So Axiom isn't there for political reasons, what about all the other progamers? Would be nice to hear from them why they aren't attending. But then maybe dreamhack is just trolling us and the other 20 players are all top foreigners/koreans.
What? TB just said, that it has nothing to do with politics:
On August 07 2014 03:53 TotalBiscuit wrote: [...] however this decision as I've already said (and you elected to ignore) has nothing to do with any kind of political boycott.
Please at least read the posts in here, before saying such stuff.
He did read right it actually, just TotalBiscuit edited his post and is pretending he didn't say anything about Ukraine conflict.
On August 07 2014 03:55 KingAlphard wrote: So Axiom isn't there for political reasons, what about all the other progamers? Would be nice to hear from them why they aren't attending. But then maybe dreamhack is just trolling us and the other 20 players are all top foreigners/koreans.
What? TB just said, that it has nothing to do with politics:
On August 07 2014 03:53 TotalBiscuit wrote: [...] however this decision as I've already said (and you elected to ignore) has nothing to do with any kind of political boycott.
Please at least read the posts in here, before saying such stuff.
He did read right it actually, just TotalBiscuit edited his post and is pretending he didn't say anything about Ukraine conflict.
Secondly, Russias belligerence in how they're acting with the Ukraine is reason enough to keep our players out on both moral grounds and with concern to their own safety.
World politics aside (and in russia there are some pretty bad signs of homophobia or even racism...).
But is the argument really: People might think some Koreans are gay, because they play around while having a different cultural background? They might be a bit touchy, but I mean what kind of evidence has this argument, any experiences or is it just some kind of prejudice?
Russia is tough, but so are other places (IEM Sao Paulo :O?). I can understand when the players don't want to go there because they feel unsafe. It's their decision and it is fine if you clarify this internally as a team. But to make this public with this kind of argument kinda sucks. It makes it political and it offends the russian esports community.
Anyways I hope it will be a good tournament, but the timing is pretty bad I will watch it!
Russia and eastern Europe is big at eSports so I hope the continent will become more united in the further future. Because we all know: US Server sucks^^
On August 07 2014 03:55 KingAlphard wrote: So Axiom isn't there for political reasons, what about all the other progamers? Would be nice to hear from them why they aren't attending. But then maybe dreamhack is just trolling us and the other 20 players are all top foreigners/koreans.
What? TB just said, that it has nothing to do with politics:
On August 07 2014 03:53 TotalBiscuit wrote: [...] however this decision as I've already said (and you elected to ignore) has nothing to do with any kind of political boycott.
Please at least read the posts in here, before saying such stuff.
He did read right it actually, just TotalBiscuit edited his post and is pretending he didn't say anything about Ukraine conflict.
How about we don't even mention the Ukraine conflict at all in this thread? No ifs, no buts, just don't talk about it.
On August 07 2014 03:55 KingAlphard wrote: So Axiom isn't there for political reasons, what about all the other progamers? Would be nice to hear from them why they aren't attending. But then maybe dreamhack is just trolling us and the other 20 players are all top foreigners/koreans.
What? TB just said, that it has nothing to do with politics:
On August 07 2014 03:53 TotalBiscuit wrote: [...] however this decision as I've already said (and you elected to ignore) has nothing to do with any kind of political boycott.
Please at least read the posts in here, before saying such stuff.
He did read right it actually, just TotalBiscuit edited his post and is pretending he didn't say anything about Ukraine conflict.
How about we don't even mention the Ukraine conflict at all in this thread? No ifs, no buts, just don't talk about it.
Maybe no discussion about the conflict itself. But it's existance is relevant to this tournament so I dont' think that's fair.
On August 07 2014 05:59 TBone- wrote: At a glance, looks like Happy and Slivko should go real deep. How in shape are Golden and Patience right now?
They have shown themselves vulnerable in the EPS. Golden lost to Heromarine, Socke and HasuObs in EPS cups and again to Heromarine in the groupstage (while knocking out Hasu and GoOdy), Patience won 3 cups, but lost to Golden and Showtime in the other to and to Showtime again in the group stages (knocking out Lambo and Socke). Both look better than EPS average, but they are no definite favorites to win this season and players like Happy definitly have a shot at beating them.
On August 07 2014 03:55 KingAlphard wrote: So Axiom isn't there for political reasons, what about all the other progamers? Would be nice to hear from them why they aren't attending. But then maybe dreamhack is just trolling us and the other 20 players are all top foreigners/koreans.
What? TB just said, that it has nothing to do with politics:
On August 07 2014 03:53 TotalBiscuit wrote: [...] however this decision as I've already said (and you elected to ignore) has nothing to do with any kind of political boycott.
Please at least read the posts in here, before saying such stuff.
He did read right it actually, just TotalBiscuit edited his post and is pretending he didn't say anything about Ukraine conflict.
How about we don't even mention the Ukraine conflict at all in this thread? No ifs, no buts, just don't talk about it.
Maybe no discussion about the conflict itself. But it's existance is relevant to this tournament so I dont' think that's fair.
How are you only here for 8 months but already overtook me in post count? On another note, happy birthday.
On August 07 2014 05:59 TBone- wrote: At a glance, looks like Happy and Slivko should go real deep. How in shape are Golden and Patience right now?
They have shown themselves vulnerable in the EPS. Golden lost to Heromarine, Socke and HasuObs in EPS cups and again to Heromarine in the groupstage (while knocking out Hasu and GoOdy), Patience won 3 cups, but lost to Golden and Showtime in the other to and to Showtime again in the group stages (knocking out Lambo and Socke). Both look better than EPS average, but they are no definite favorites to win this season and players like Happy definitly have a shot at beating them.
On August 07 2014 03:55 KingAlphard wrote: So Axiom isn't there for political reasons, what about all the other progamers? Would be nice to hear from them why they aren't attending. But then maybe dreamhack is just trolling us and the other 20 players are all top foreigners/koreans.
What? TB just said, that it has nothing to do with politics:
On August 07 2014 03:53 TotalBiscuit wrote: [...] however this decision as I've already said (and you elected to ignore) has nothing to do with any kind of political boycott.
Please at least read the posts in here, before saying such stuff.
He did read right it actually, just TotalBiscuit edited his post and is pretending he didn't say anything about Ukraine conflict.
How about we don't even mention the Ukraine conflict at all in this thread? No ifs, no buts, just don't talk about it.
Maybe no discussion about the conflict itself. But it's existance is relevant to this tournament so I dont' think that's fair.
How are you only here for 8 months but already overtook me in post count? On another note, happy birthday.
On August 07 2014 03:55 KingAlphard wrote: So Axiom isn't there for political reasons, what about all the other progamers? Would be nice to hear from them why they aren't attending. But then maybe dreamhack is just trolling us and the other 20 players are all top foreigners/koreans.
What? TB just said, that it has nothing to do with politics:
On August 07 2014 03:53 TotalBiscuit wrote: [...] however this decision as I've already said (and you elected to ignore) has nothing to do with any kind of political boycott.
Please at least read the posts in here, before saying such stuff.
He did read right it actually, just TotalBiscuit edited his post and is pretending he didn't say anything about Ukraine conflict.
Random bullshitter on a forum lies about team owner to cause drama.
On August 07 2014 03:55 KingAlphard wrote: So Axiom isn't there for political reasons, what about all the other progamers? Would be nice to hear from them why they aren't attending. But then maybe dreamhack is just trolling us and the other 20 players are all top foreigners/koreans.
What? TB just said, that it has nothing to do with politics:
On August 07 2014 03:53 TotalBiscuit wrote: [...] however this decision as I've already said (and you elected to ignore) has nothing to do with any kind of political boycott.
Please at least read the posts in here, before saying such stuff.
He did read right it actually, just TotalBiscuit edited his post and is pretending he didn't say anything about Ukraine conflict.
Random bullshitter on a forum lies about team owner to cause drama.
Just another day in the SC2 community.
Not sure why so much hate, when I quoted you and actually supported your statement.
Eh, I guess I will never understand lack of empathy and failing at theory of mind when people interact with each other over internet. I think every should be respectful to others. :/
Also saying that I'm "random bullshiter" on forum just because you have some interest against me is unfair and offending. The fact that I don't run YT show doesn't make me any more random as a human being in comparison to you. Please be polite when dealing with others if you want to raise level of this community. I sincerely do want to have civilized discussion so maybe we can work something out instead going "internet mode".
I'm really sorry I have offended you. But I still find it arrogant to attack me and call "liar" just because I quoted you before and your response it archived before the edit. :/
I see some posts here and there saying that totalbiscuit made some edits to his post that was linked on reddit. The only "edit" he made was combining another post into one single post. This makes it easier for redditors to see because they won't know about the second post he made. I should know this because I'm the one that linked TB's post to reddit.
On August 07 2014 03:55 KingAlphard wrote: So Axiom isn't there for political reasons, what about all the other progamers? Would be nice to hear from them why they aren't attending. But then maybe dreamhack is just trolling us and the other 20 players are all top foreigners/koreans.
What? TB just said, that it has nothing to do with politics:
On August 07 2014 03:53 TotalBiscuit wrote: [...] however this decision as I've already said (and you elected to ignore) has nothing to do with any kind of political boycott.
Please at least read the posts in here, before saying such stuff.
He did read right it actually, just TotalBiscuit edited his post and is pretending he didn't say anything about Ukraine conflict.
Random bullshitter on a forum lies about team owner to cause drama.
Just another day in the SC2 community.
Not sure why so much hate, when I quoted you and actually supported your statement.
Eh, I guess I will never understand lack of empathy and failing at theory of mind when people interact with each other over internet. I think every should be respectful to others. :/
Also saying that I'm "random bullshiter" on forum just because you have some interest against me is unfair and offending. The fact that I don't run YT show doesn't make me any more random as a human being in comparison to you. Please be polite when dealing with others if you want to raise level of this community. I sincerely do want to have civilized discussion so maybe we can work something out instead going "internet mode".
I'm really sorry I have offended you. But I still find it arrogant to attack me and call "liar" just because I quoted you before and your response it archived before the edit. :/
Well, the less players not from russia in that event, the more players from russia in that event. There are a lot of memorable names on that list, let's hope for a good show! I wonder if Bratok also participates... :D
On August 07 2014 06:39 justice4all80 wrote: lol People really think there is war between Russia and Ukraine- West propaganda really funny:D
Not so much a war, more like extremely high political tensions combined with a regional occupation and the possibility of Russian-armed rebels killing civilians...
Hey, TB, i have a suggestion. Send just 1(one) Axiom player to Moscow. Im sure he cant act gay by himself, can he? That way you can protect your players and save esports as well.
On August 07 2014 06:37 ptbl wrote: I see some posts here and there saying that totalbiscuit made some edits to his post that was linked on reddit. The only "edit" he made was combining another post into one single post. This makes it easier for redditors to see because they won't know about the second post he made. I should know this because I'm the one that linked TB's post to reddit.
^^
this guy.
In a twist of irony, the reason I made that edit or more accurately, merging of the posts, was to prevent this very kind of misunderstanding and/or lying about my position.
Hey, TB, i have a suggestion. Send just 1(one) Axiom player to Moscow. Im sure he cant act gay by himself, can he? That way you can protect your players and save esports as well.
TB's decision is disappointing, though more for the reason he gave. Claiming the players wouldn't be safe because some Koreans tend to sometimes "sit on others laps" is ludicrous, to say the least. I would actually understand TB more if his reasoning was of a political nature, even if such a stance would seem frivolous and juvenile.
Nevertheless, maybe some Russian players will surprise me with their performance, just like some Canadian players have recently.
On August 07 2014 06:39 justice4all80 wrote: lol People really think there is war between Russia and Ukraine- West propaganda really funny:D
Not so much a war, more like extremely high political tensions combined with a regional occupation and the possibility of Russian-armed rebels killing civilians...
I heard through US media that Putin and Russian media blames US and western Europe for all of Russia's economic issues. If that kind of indoctrination is going on, maybe Russian citizens would be hostile toward Americans? This a step further than our traditional reputation of American, saying we are responsible for the hardships they are enduring.
You probably would be fine if you kept to yourself and stayed with a group of people. But if I was going to attend, I would be going by myself. Maybe I am a bit paranoid and the vast majority of Russians do not mind Americans or would not be aggressive.
That is not to say that US media and government does not spread their own propaganda, but it is hard to know who is right or wrong. And you have to exercise caution when going to a country you are in "conflict" with right now.
On August 07 2014 06:37 ptbl wrote: I see some posts here and there saying that totalbiscuit made some edits to his post that was linked on reddit. The only "edit" he made was combining another post into one single post. This makes it easier for redditors to see because they won't know about the second post he made. I should know this because I'm the one that linked TB's post to reddit.
^^
this guy.
In a twist of irony, the reason I made that edit or more accurately, merging of the posts, was to prevent this very kind of misunderstanding and/or lying about my position.
Hey, TB, i have a suggestion. Send just 1(one) Axiom player to Moscow. Im sure he cant act gay by himself, can he? That way you can protect your players and save esports as well.
I have a counter suggestion.
Stop posting.
and i would suggest you too Google words like " moscow gay" such famous russian artist like "penkin, moiseev, zverev etc etc.." there are really much. and you will see how wrong you are. Never the less there are much unsafty places in ther world also in lodon u can be realy beaten for that reason in wrong part of the City at wrong time... so imho u did big mistake to believe the lieng tv-
On August 07 2014 06:39 justice4all80 wrote: lol People really think there is war between Russia and Ukraine- West propaganda really funny:D
Not so much a war, more like extremely high political tensions combined with a regional occupation and the possibility of Russian-armed rebels killing civilians...
thats a lie
which part?
edit: according to this message you sent me, you are banned... so okay then.
On August 06 2014 23:39 Faust852 wrote: Looks like pros don't really want to go to Russia :}
We're not sending players for a couple of reasons. Firstly, Russias rampant homophobia. Not only is it morally repugnant, but it puts our players at risk. Korean males are culturally very comfortable with being close to each other. Holding hands, sitting on others laps etc, not at all uncommon. In Russia this could be mistaken for gay behavior and may result in misunderstandings that could even lead to violence. There are plenty of incidents where gay or "we thought he was gay" people have been beaten in Russia. Secondly, Russias belligerence in how they're acting with the Ukraine is reason enough to keep our players out on both moral grounds and with concern to their own safety.
EDIT: Since this is now linked on Reddit and they probably won't read my followup post. I'm reposting that here.
It's just a really sad state of affairs. I have quite a lot of Russian fans, so does the team, but the safety of the players has to come first. The political reasoning isn't even that important, almost every country does something objectionable. Should we not send players to the US because of the arguably illegal wars its waged in the past or the whole spying on its own citizens thing? You'd be short on tournaments to go to if you started doing that. The homophobic violence however is a very real thing and don't count on thugs to know the difference between gay people and typical Korean male social closeness. This homophobia, pushed by those in power, is deliberately divisive. Unite the country by persecuting a minority within it, differentiate yourselves from other countries that are more accepting, utilize the galvinisation against said minority as a banner to rally behind and in turn, rally against countries who the population now perceives as different and "the enemy". It's sad that this can still work in the internet age, though I think we are getting to the point where it is losing its effectiveness. It's hard to view other people in other countries as enemies when you interact with them every day online and see that they're just another human being like us.
So the primary reason for not sending our players is the safety concern. If we had someone on the ground who spoke Russian that we could trust we would probably be more open to the idea, but we don't, so we'd rather not send our players into that environment. Not sending our players should not be considered a boycott of the event, we just want to risk our players well-being when there are other events they could attend that don't carry those risks.
I get the homophobic thing but using your power as a media figure here on TL and reddit to go about giving your own biased view on Russia vs Ukraine conflict following up with "oh hey guys its not one of the reasons for not sending players" and then talk about how other countries do similar conflicts. Stating that "if we dont send players there then there is no tournaments to go to" why did you have to state these 2 opinions? Now people that don't want to educate themselves on the conflicts and only view media sources from one point of view will gobble up what you have said and start regurgitating it back to the masses creating more bias and silly views on a very serious conflict.
To be honest I completely get why a team would not send their players to a very controversial part of the world. Dreamhack probably didn't know this was going to go on this way (they planned Moscow last year) and the Russia/Ukraine bullshit hadn't been playing up globally since then, and they can't cancel an event just like that. That said I completely respect teams that do not want to take any RISKS in any way shape or form whether it be the controversial stuff with Ukraine or the homophobia that goes around there, it's just a situation a team doesn't want to get their players into. Completely understandable.
On August 06 2014 23:39 Faust852 wrote: Looks like pros don't really want to go to Russia :}
We're not sending players for a couple of reasons. Firstly, Russias rampant homophobia. Not only is it morally repugnant, but it puts our players at risk. Korean males are culturally very comfortable with being close to each other. Holding hands, sitting on others laps etc, not at all uncommon. In Russia this could be mistaken for gay behavior and may result in misunderstandings that could even lead to violence. There are plenty of incidents where gay or "we thought he was gay" people have been beaten in Russia. Secondly, Russias belligerence in how they're acting with the Ukraine is reason enough to keep our players out on both moral grounds and with concern to their own safety.
EDIT: Since this is now linked on Reddit and they probably won't read my followup post. I'm reposting that here.
It's just a really sad state of affairs. I have quite a lot of Russian fans, so does the team, but the safety of the players has to come first. The political reasoning isn't even that important, almost every country does something objectionable. Should we not send players to the US because of the arguably illegal wars its waged in the past or the whole spying on its own citizens thing? You'd be short on tournaments to go to if you started doing that. The homophobic violence however is a very real thing and don't count on thugs to know the difference between gay people and typical Korean male social closeness. This homophobia, pushed by those in power, is deliberately divisive. Unite the country by persecuting a minority within it, differentiate yourselves from other countries that are more accepting, utilize the galvinisation against said minority as a banner to rally behind and in turn, rally against countries who the population now perceives as different and "the enemy". It's sad that this can still work in the internet age, though I think we are getting to the point where it is losing its effectiveness. It's hard to view other people in other countries as enemies when you interact with them every day online and see that they're just another human being like us.
So the primary reason for not sending our players is the safety concern. If we had someone on the ground who spoke Russian that we could trust we would probably be more open to the idea, but we don't, so we'd rather not send our players into that environment. Not sending our players should not be considered a boycott of the event, we just want to risk our players well-being when there are other events they could attend that don't carry those risks.
I get the homophobic thing but using your power as a media figure here on TL and reddit to go about giving your own biased view on Russia vs Ukraine conflict following up with "oh hey guys its not one of the reasons for not sending players" and then talk about how other countries do similar conflicts. Stating that "if we dont send players there then there is no tournaments to go to" why did you have to state these 2 opinions? Now people that don't want to educate themselves on the conflicts and only view media sources from one point of view will gobble up what you have said and start regurgitating it back to the masses creating more bias and silly views on a very serious conflict.
Using his power as a media figure? By... writing an explanation for his team's actions? So you think TB shouldn't be allowed to explain his team's actions because his (arguable, possibly ignorant, but certainly not indefensible) opinion might upset someone?
On August 06 2014 23:39 Faust852 wrote: Looks like pros don't really want to go to Russia :}
We're not sending players for a couple of reasons. Firstly, Russias rampant homophobia. Not only is it morally repugnant, but it puts our players at risk. Korean males are culturally very comfortable with being close to each other. Holding hands, sitting on others laps etc, not at all uncommon. In Russia this could be mistaken for gay behavior and may result in misunderstandings that could even lead to violence. There are plenty of incidents where gay or "we thought he was gay" people have been beaten in Russia. Secondly, Russias belligerence in how they're acting with the Ukraine is reason enough to keep our players out on both moral grounds and with concern to their own safety.
TB, I love you and your team but to read this is pretty painful.
First of all this whole "homophobia" thing is completely blew out of scale by the western media that tried to depict Russia as a country dangerous for gay people- it's not as easy as in some place like California but it's far from the worst. Your post unfortunately denotes a huge amount of ignorance on actual facts and about Russia itself, but I know it's not your fault because you're also brainwashed by western media. Russia has a huge amount of Chinese and southern east Asia visitors who - just like Koreans - act the way you described and there's never episodes like the one you describe where there's episodes that could lead to violence, especially on foreigners.
Second, the U.S. itself has some of the most homophobic states (and most racist states too) but you never hear about someone not sending players to a certain state because they're racist and homophobic there. Also, most of the allies of the U.S. (i.e. Saudi Arabia) execute homosexual people and put them in jail. Then Obama goes on TV and says he has no patience for countries that have homophobic remarks like Russia but forgets about their buddies like those middle eastern states from which they get oil from. And then someone like you thinks damn he's right and just pictures Russia as the bad guys forgetting EVERY super-power (US, Russia, China) is equally bad for different reasons. Some western people are so stupid to think to "boycott" Russia for this homophobia reason - which as I said is nothing more than a huge media thing against Russia that started pre-olympics due to tensions that were rising over Snowden and other issues - but you never see some American, UK or EU citizen boycott vacation in Dubai, despite the fact that it's a city built on slavery and where there are some of the strongest anti-gay laws. The view that one country is evil (Russia) and one is good (US, UK or whatever) just shows how much naive you are and the hilarious thing is that you're trying to come out as a good guy for boycotting Russia's event or rather, you have a valid reason not to support Russia- but really, what you're showing is your narrow fielded view. The U.S. does just as many bad things as Russia, and historically speaking have done even more. You probably must not know how things are in China- because you don't boycott there but that country is on far worst human rights ground than Russia and U.S.
Before you think I am biased because I am Russian, I want to tell you two things: One is that I lived most of my life in California, one year in the UK and the least amount itself in Russia and when I come back here I always remember how unfair Russians are treated by the rest of the west, especially lately. You are doing nothing more than a disservice for Russian fans. There's aton of Russian SC2 fans, and I know myself a lot of people who love (or maybe now loved) your team and players but reading this stuff is pretty sad and pathetic sorry. This boycott thing working just shows how good the U.S. media campaign is really, nothing more
i don't mean to be the know of reality but what Russia's doing in the Ukraine isn't right... second of all Russia gets hate for the things they've done and the things they're doing... i'm not saying that the "western media" (btw's although its a fuzzy line... Russia is a western civilization) doesn't blow it out of purportion.... the fact is what has happened to homosexual behaviour... if he's not comfortable putting his players in a Possibly unsafe environment it's his perogative
While it may be dissapointing to us as fans, TB is absolutely 100% right to put the safety of his team above and beyond everything else. It has got to be the priority and say TB didn't prioritise his team's safety and that something did happen, people would attack TB and blame him for sending his players there. TB is just being a responsible team manager.
On August 07 2014 08:53 Crot4le wrote: While it may be dissapointing to us as fans, TB is absolutely 100% right to put the safety of his team above and beyond everything else. It has got to be the priority and say TB didn't prioritise his team's safety and that something did happen, people would attack TB and blame him for sending his players there. TB is just being a responsible team manager.
But "putting safety first" has it's limits. what are the odds that anything happened to them while in Russia? virtually zero.
and all the other times we trusted the community not to crucify us for putting the interests of our players first.
I guess I only have my own naivety to blame. You win, this is the last time, I'll stick to filtered PR statements from now on or silence when it comes to the team, both come with less headaches. A lesson well learned.
On August 07 2014 09:01 TotalBiscuit wrote: Transparency sucks. This thread demonstrates why.
And the TaKe chat logs
and all the other times we trusted the community not to crucify us for putting the interests of our players first.
I guess I only have my own naivety to blame. You win, this is the last time, I'll stick to filtered PR statements from now on or silence when it comes to the team, both come with less headaches. A lesson well learned.
On August 07 2014 09:01 TotalBiscuit wrote: Transparency sucks. This thread demonstrates why.
And the TaKe chat logs
and all the other times we trusted the community not to crucify us for putting the interests of our players first.
I guess I only have my own naivety to blame. You win, this is the last time, I'll stick to filtered PR statements from now on or silence when it comes to the team, both come with less headaches. A lesson well learned.
To be honest, I think the majority in people in this thread support your decision and stance and agree it's the correct thing to do. It's only a few people who have disagreed with it.
On August 07 2014 09:01 TotalBiscuit wrote: Transparency sucks. This thread demonstrates why.
And the TaKe chat logs
and all the other times we trusted the community not to crucify us for putting the interests of our players first.
I guess I only have my own naivety to blame. You win, this is the last time, I'll stick to filtered PR statements from now on or silence when it comes to the team, both come with less headaches. A lesson well learned.
Transparency is the only possible way to discuss and find the truth! Only this way can figure out the arguments and facts. If if u dont want transparency you may be dont have facts and argumants to show your right. So do just the announce thing and thats it...
On August 07 2014 09:01 TotalBiscuit wrote: Transparency sucks. This thread demonstrates why.
And the TaKe chat logs
and all the other times we trusted the community not to crucify us for putting the interests of our players first.
I guess I only have my own naivety to blame. You win, this is the last time, I'll stick to filtered PR statements from now on or silence when it comes to the team, both come with less headaches. A lesson well learned.
Sorry people questioned a decision you made
Hey you know what would have helped stop any of that from happening?
On August 07 2014 09:01 TotalBiscuit wrote: Transparency sucks. This thread demonstrates why.
And the TaKe chat logs
and all the other times we trusted the community not to crucify us for putting the interests of our players first.
I guess I only have my own naivety to blame. You win, this is the last time, I'll stick to filtered PR statements from now on or silence when it comes to the team, both come with less headaches. A lesson well learned.
I don't know what i'll come to TL for if not for the TB drama, please don't quit.
On August 07 2014 09:01 TotalBiscuit wrote: Transparency sucks. This thread demonstrates why.
And the TaKe chat logs
and all the other times we trusted the community not to crucify us for putting the interests of our players first.
I guess I only have my own naivety to blame. You win, this is the last time, I'll stick to filtered PR statements from now on or silence when it comes to the team, both come with less headaches. A lesson well learned.
Sorry people questioned a decision you made
Hey you know what would have helped stop any of that from happening?
Not telling them about it!
If all you want is for no one to question a decision you made, espeically one that is subjective to opinion such as this one, go for it. Dont' tell anyone anything and I guess no one can every reasonably say you're wrong or right.
On August 07 2014 09:01 TotalBiscuit wrote: Transparency sucks. This thread demonstrates why.
And the TaKe chat logs
and all the other times we trusted the community not to crucify us for putting the interests of our players first.
I guess I only have my own naivety to blame. You win, this is the last time, I'll stick to filtered PR statements from now on or silence when it comes to the team, both come with less headaches. A lesson well learned.
Its always a very small part of the community, and probably the toxics and the idiots. I know it must hurt you, but im pretty sure the majority support you and team Axiom. You are the savior of most SlayerS players when they disbanded, its not a small thing for me and fans, you changed lives of your koreans players and ours, everything you did for Starcraft and beyond. Those haters did nothing close of what you achieved yet, and are probably sad persons..
While sometime our opinions may differ, the people who respect you will try to discuss in a civilized manner. The toxics and the idiots will just try to push the ''Totalbiscuit button'' and sadly it work most of the time as you said yourself in that big post.
EDIT: Sorry for everyone, english is not my first language but i think you will get the points.
On August 07 2014 00:27 TotalBiscuit wrote: Russias rampant homophobia.
I've been living in Russia for 20 years. And I have never seen an example of homophobic behavior. Seems like people from other countries know much more about Russian than Russians themselves.
On August 07 2014 00:27 TotalBiscuit wrote: Korean males are culturally very comfortable with being close to each other. Holding hands, sitting on others laps etc, not at all uncommon. In Russia this could be mistaken for gay behavior and may result in misunderstandings that could even lead to violence.
Yea, I do remember we've beaten the shit out of those asian boys at wcg showmatches, Kode5 and gamex. Oh wait, we did not. Also nestea and MVP came to Russia a year ago to play some showmatches and they are still alive somehow.
On August 07 2014 00:27 TotalBiscuit wrote: Secondly, Russias belligerence in how they're acting with the Ukraine is reason enough to keep our players out on both moral grounds and with concern to their own safety.
I doubt you'd find Ukraine on the world map. But you're for sure a geopolitical expert to make such statements.
I am sure there will be enough good players to look, even though you won't send yours. But it's still a bit sad. Those reasons seem ridiculously stupid for anyone who have ever lived in Russia. It's even worse if you believe what you've said, cuz it sounds like repeating propaganda from tv or something like that.
Anyway, I am looking forward to the great tournament. Hope to see mc and hyun in Moscow.
On August 07 2014 09:01 TotalBiscuit wrote: Transparency sucks. This thread demonstrates why.
And the TaKe chat logs
and all the other times we trusted the community not to crucify us for putting the interests of our players first.
I guess I only have my own naivety to blame. You win, this is the last time, I'll stick to filtered PR statements from now on or silence when it comes to the team, both come with less headaches. A lesson well learned.
Its always a very small part of the community, and probably the toxics and the idiots. I know it must hurt you, but im pretty sure the majority support you and team Axiom. You are the savior of most SlayerS players when they disbanded, its not a small thing for me and fans, you changed lives of your koreans players and ours, everything you did for Starcraft and beyond. Those haters did nothing close of what you achieved yet, and are probably sad persons..
While sometime our opinions may differ, the people who respect you will try to discuss in a civilized manner. The toxics and the idiots will just try to push the ''Totalbiscuit button'' and sadly it work most of the time as you said yourself in that big post.
well what a smart style to write about "discussing in civilized maner" while offending all people with different opinion as "idiots and haters" ...several times.
But one thing you right about TB. Its much better just announce the decision and dont describe it and talk about things reasons you have no idea about it.
On August 07 2014 09:01 TotalBiscuit wrote: Transparency sucks. This thread demonstrates why.
And the TaKe chat logs
and all the other times we trusted the community not to crucify us for putting the interests of our players first.
I guess I only have my own naivety to blame. You win, this is the last time, I'll stick to filtered PR statements from now on or silence when it comes to the team, both come with less headaches. A lesson well learned.
Its always a very small part of the community, and probably the toxics and the idiots. I know it must hurt you, but im pretty sure the majority support you and team Axiom. You are the savior of most SlayerS players when they disbanded, its not a small thing for me and fans, you changed lives of your koreans players and ours, everything you did for Starcraft and beyond. Those haters did nothing close of what you achieved yet, and are probably sad persons..
While sometime our opinions may differ, the people who respect you will try to discuss in a civilized manner. The toxics and the idiots will just try to push the ''Totalbiscuit button'' and sadly it work most of the time as you said yourself in that big post.
EDIT: Sorry for everyone, english is not my first language but i think you will get the points.
"They disagree with my decision, therefore they are toxics and idiots". Please open your mind up a bit more.
If you don't like reading people that disagree with your opinion, then just post what you have to say and don't bother reading the responses.
They should cancel this event. Half the world has sanctions set on Russia and they are about to invade Ukraine. It's kinda cold to help an economy that is supporting an invading army and suppressing a people. Dreamhack do the right thing and cancel it and move it some where else. Anywhere else. To the people who are going stay safe be careful.
On August 07 2014 00:27 TotalBiscuit wrote: Russias rampant homophobia.
I've been living in Russia for 20 years. And I have never seen an example of homophobic behavior. Seems like people from other countries know much more about Russian than Russians themselves.
On August 07 2014 00:27 TotalBiscuit wrote: Korean males are culturally very comfortable with being close to each other. Holding hands, sitting on others laps etc, not at all uncommon. In Russia this could be mistaken for gay behavior and may result in misunderstandings that could even lead to violence.
Yea, I do remember we've beaten the shit out of those asian boys at wcg showmatches, Kode5 and gamex. Oh wait, we did not. Also nestea and MVP came to Russia a year ago to play some showmatches and they are still alive somehow.
On August 07 2014 00:27 TotalBiscuit wrote: Secondly, Russias belligerence in how they're acting with the Ukraine is reason enough to keep our players out on both moral grounds and with concern to their own safety.
I doubt you'd find Ukraine on the world map. But you're for sure a geopolitical expert to make such statements.
I am sure there will be enough good players to look, even though you won't send yours. But it's still a bit sad. Those reasons seem ridiculously stupid for anyone who have ever lived in Russia. It's even worse if you believe what you've said, cuz it sounds like repeating propaganda from tv or something like that.
Anyway, I am looking forward to the great tournament. Hope to see mc and hyun in Moscow.
Why so passive agressive? You have a different opinion, thats all. You have good points from my perspective but no need to be an ass. Why dont you tell us more about Russia and gays ? What are the opinions of russians? Is it worst in some part of Russia and better in Moscow? What the russian public think about the new anti-gay laws? etc..
Im not sure here is the right place for this, so mods feel free to edit my post.
On August 07 2014 10:51 dashpar wrote: They should cancel this event. Half the world has sanctions set on Russia and they are about to invade Ukraine. It's kinda cold to help an economy that is supporting an invading army and suppressing a people. Dreamhack do the right thing and cancel it and move it some where else. Anywhere else. To the people who are going stay safe be careful.
On August 07 2014 09:01 TotalBiscuit wrote: Transparency sucks. This thread demonstrates why.
And the TaKe chat logs
and all the other times we trusted the community not to crucify us for putting the interests of our players first.
I guess I only have my own naivety to blame. You win, this is the last time, I'll stick to filtered PR statements from now on or silence when it comes to the team, both come with less headaches. A lesson well learned.
Its always a very small part of the community, and probably the toxics and the idiots. I know it must hurt you, but im pretty sure the majority support you and team Axiom. You are the savior of most SlayerS players when they disbanded, its not a small thing for me and fans, you changed lives of your koreans players and ours, everything you did for Starcraft and beyond. Those haters did nothing close of what you achieved yet, and are probably sad persons..
While sometime our opinions may differ, the people who respect you will try to discuss in a civilized manner. The toxics and the idiots will just try to push the ''Totalbiscuit button'' and sadly it work most of the time as you said yourself in that big post.
well what a smart style to write about "discussing in civilized maner" while offending all people with different opinion as "idiots and haters" ...several times.
But one thing you right about TB. Its much better just announce the decision and dont describe it and talk about things reasons you have no idea about it.
Please re-read my post, because im not saying that at all. ''While sometime our opinions may differ, the people who respect you will try to discuss in a civilized manner.''
The idiots and toxics are the trolls, people just there to shit and hurt someone, whose ''contribution'' bring nothing. You cant discuss with thoses peoples. I hope i make myself clear
On August 07 2014 09:01 TotalBiscuit wrote: Transparency sucks. This thread demonstrates why.
And the TaKe chat logs
and all the other times we trusted the community not to crucify us for putting the interests of our players first.
I guess I only have my own naivety to blame. You win, this is the last time, I'll stick to filtered PR statements from now on or silence when it comes to the team, both come with less headaches. A lesson well learned.
Its always a very small part of the community, and probably the toxics and the idiots. I know it must hurt you, but im pretty sure the majority support you and team Axiom. You are the savior of most SlayerS players when they disbanded, its not a small thing for me and fans, you changed lives of your koreans players and ours, everything you did for Starcraft and beyond. Those haters did nothing close of what you achieved yet, and are probably sad persons..
While sometime our opinions may differ, the people who respect you will try to discuss in a civilized manner. The toxics and the idiots will just try to push the ''Totalbiscuit button'' and sadly it work most of the time as you said yourself in that big post.
EDIT: Sorry for everyone, english is not my first language but i think you will get the points.
"They disagree with my decision, therefore they are toxics and idiots". Please open your mind up a bit more.
If you don't like reading people that disagree with your opinion, then just post what you have to say and don't bother reading the responses.
Nowhere in my text i say that, see the answer i gave to another guy
On August 07 2014 00:27 TotalBiscuit wrote: Russias rampant homophobia.
I've been living in Russia for 20 years. And I have never seen an example of homophobic behavior. Seems like people from other countries know much more about Russian than Russians themselves.
On August 07 2014 00:27 TotalBiscuit wrote: Korean males are culturally very comfortable with being close to each other. Holding hands, sitting on others laps etc, not at all uncommon. In Russia this could be mistaken for gay behavior and may result in misunderstandings that could even lead to violence.
Yea, I do remember we've beaten the shit out of those asian boys at wcg showmatches, Kode5 and gamex. Oh wait, we did not. Also nestea and MVP came to Russia a year ago to play some showmatches and they are still alive somehow.
On August 07 2014 00:27 TotalBiscuit wrote: Secondly, Russias belligerence in how they're acting with the Ukraine is reason enough to keep our players out on both moral grounds and with concern to their own safety.
I doubt you'd find Ukraine on the world map. But you're for sure a geopolitical expert to make such statements.
I am sure there will be enough good players to look, even though you won't send yours. But it's still a bit sad. Those reasons seem ridiculously stupid for anyone who have ever lived in Russia. It's even worse if you believe what you've said, cuz it sounds like repeating propaganda from tv or something like that.
Anyway, I am looking forward to the great tournament. Hope to see mc and hyun in Moscow.
Why so passive agressive? You have a different opinion, thats all. You have good points from my perspective but no need to be an ass. Why dont you tell us more about Russia and gays ? What are the opinions of russians? Is it worst in some part of Russia and better in Moscow? What the russian public think about the new anti-gay laws? etc..
Im not sure here is the right place for this, so mods feel free to edit my post.
thats not the right thread for this!
But there are no gay laws! use google for exact point of laws. laws against the pedophile and gay propaganda for children!
User was banned for being a PBU already banned in this thread.
On August 07 2014 00:27 TotalBiscuit wrote: Russias rampant homophobia.
I've been living in Russia for 20 years. And I have never seen an example of homophobic behavior. Seems like people from other countries know much more about Russian than Russians themselves.
On August 07 2014 00:27 TotalBiscuit wrote: Korean males are culturally very comfortable with being close to each other. Holding hands, sitting on others laps etc, not at all uncommon. In Russia this could be mistaken for gay behavior and may result in misunderstandings that could even lead to violence.
Yea, I do remember we've beaten the shit out of those asian boys at wcg showmatches, Kode5 and gamex. Oh wait, we did not. Also nestea and MVP came to Russia a year ago to play some showmatches and they are still alive somehow.
On August 07 2014 00:27 TotalBiscuit wrote: Secondly, Russias belligerence in how they're acting with the Ukraine is reason enough to keep our players out on both moral grounds and with concern to their own safety.
I doubt you'd find Ukraine on the world map. But you're for sure a geopolitical expert to make such statements.
I am sure there will be enough good players to look, even though you won't send yours. But it's still a bit sad. Those reasons seem ridiculously stupid for anyone who have ever lived in Russia. It's even worse if you believe what you've said, cuz it sounds like repeating propaganda from tv or something like that.
Anyway, I am looking forward to the great tournament. Hope to see mc and hyun in Moscow.
Why so passive agressive? You have a different opinion, thats all. You have good points from my perspective but no need to be an ass. Why dont you tell us more about Russia and gays ? What are the opinions of russians? Is it worst in some part of Russia and better in Moscow? What the russian public think about the new anti-gay laws? etc..
Im not sure here is the right place for this, so mods feel free to edit my post.
thats not the right thread for this!
But there are no gay laws! use google for exact point of laws. laws against the pedophile and gay propaganda for children!
On August 07 2014 00:27 TotalBiscuit wrote: Russias rampant homophobia.
I've been living in Russia for 20 years. And I have never seen an example of homophobic behavior. Seems like people from other countries know much more about Russian than Russians themselves.
On August 07 2014 00:27 TotalBiscuit wrote: Korean males are culturally very comfortable with being close to each other. Holding hands, sitting on others laps etc, not at all uncommon. In Russia this could be mistaken for gay behavior and may result in misunderstandings that could even lead to violence.
Yea, I do remember we've beaten the shit out of those asian boys at wcg showmatches, Kode5 and gamex. Oh wait, we did not. Also nestea and MVP came to Russia a year ago to play some showmatches and they are still alive somehow.
On August 07 2014 00:27 TotalBiscuit wrote: Secondly, Russias belligerence in how they're acting with the Ukraine is reason enough to keep our players out on both moral grounds and with concern to their own safety.
I doubt you'd find Ukraine on the world map. But you're for sure a geopolitical expert to make such statements.
I am sure there will be enough good players to look, even though you won't send yours. But it's still a bit sad. Those reasons seem ridiculously stupid for anyone who have ever lived in Russia. It's even worse if you believe what you've said, cuz it sounds like repeating propaganda from tv or something like that.
Anyway, I am looking forward to the great tournament. Hope to see mc and hyun in Moscow.
Why so passive agressive? You have a different opinion, thats all. You have good points from my perspective but no need to be an ass. Why dont you tell us more about Russia and gays ? What are the opinions of russians? Is it worst in some part of Russia and better in Moscow? What the russian public think about the new anti-gay laws? etc..
Im not sure here is the right place for this, so mods feel free to edit my post.
thats not the right thread for this!
But there are no gay laws! use google for exact point of laws. laws against the pedophile and gay propaganda for children!
''laws against gay propaganda for children'' <--- you just proved my point.
On August 07 2014 00:27 TotalBiscuit wrote: Russias rampant homophobia.
I've been living in Russia for 20 years. And I have never seen an example of homophobic behavior. Seems like people from other countries know much more about Russian than Russians themselves.
On August 07 2014 00:27 TotalBiscuit wrote: Korean males are culturally very comfortable with being close to each other. Holding hands, sitting on others laps etc, not at all uncommon. In Russia this could be mistaken for gay behavior and may result in misunderstandings that could even lead to violence.
Yea, I do remember we've beaten the shit out of those asian boys at wcg showmatches, Kode5 and gamex. Oh wait, we did not. Also nestea and MVP came to Russia a year ago to play some showmatches and they are still alive somehow.
On August 07 2014 00:27 TotalBiscuit wrote: Secondly, Russias belligerence in how they're acting with the Ukraine is reason enough to keep our players out on both moral grounds and with concern to their own safety.
I doubt you'd find Ukraine on the world map. But you're for sure a geopolitical expert to make such statements.
I am sure there will be enough good players to look, even though you won't send yours. But it's still a bit sad. Those reasons seem ridiculously stupid for anyone who have ever lived in Russia. It's even worse if you believe what you've said, cuz it sounds like repeating propaganda from tv or something like that.
Anyway, I am looking forward to the great tournament. Hope to see mc and hyun in Moscow.
Why so passive agressive? You have a different opinion, thats all. You have good points from my perspective but no need to be an ass. Why dont you tell us more about Russia and gays ? What are the opinions of russians? Is it worst in some part of Russia and better in Moscow? What the russian public think about the new anti-gay laws? etc..
Im not sure here is the right place for this, so mods feel free to edit my post.
thats not the right thread for this!
But there are no gay laws! use google for exact point of laws. laws against the pedophile and gay propaganda for children!
''laws against gay propaganda'' <--- you just proved my point.
...for children
or you just pick only words which dont disturb your well builded pony world?!
On August 07 2014 00:27 TotalBiscuit wrote: Russias rampant homophobia.
I've been living in Russia for 20 years. And I have never seen an example of homophobic behavior. Seems like people from other countries know much more about Russian than Russians themselves.
On August 07 2014 00:27 TotalBiscuit wrote: Korean males are culturally very comfortable with being close to each other. Holding hands, sitting on others laps etc, not at all uncommon. In Russia this could be mistaken for gay behavior and may result in misunderstandings that could even lead to violence.
Yea, I do remember we've beaten the shit out of those asian boys at wcg showmatches, Kode5 and gamex. Oh wait, we did not. Also nestea and MVP came to Russia a year ago to play some showmatches and they are still alive somehow.
On August 07 2014 00:27 TotalBiscuit wrote: Secondly, Russias belligerence in how they're acting with the Ukraine is reason enough to keep our players out on both moral grounds and with concern to their own safety.
I doubt you'd find Ukraine on the world map. But you're for sure a geopolitical expert to make such statements.
I am sure there will be enough good players to look, even though you won't send yours. But it's still a bit sad. Those reasons seem ridiculously stupid for anyone who have ever lived in Russia. It's even worse if you believe what you've said, cuz it sounds like repeating propaganda from tv or something like that.
Anyway, I am looking forward to the great tournament. Hope to see mc and hyun in Moscow.
Why so passive agressive? You have a different opinion, thats all. You have good points from my perspective but no need to be an ass. Why dont you tell us more about Russia and gays ? What are the opinions of russians? Is it worst in some part of Russia and better in Moscow? What the russian public think about the new anti-gay laws? etc..
Im not sure here is the right place for this, so mods feel free to edit my post.
thats not the right thread for this!
But there are no gay laws! use google for exact point of laws. laws against the pedophile and gay propaganda for children!
''laws against gay propaganda'' <--- you just proved my point.
...for children
or you just pick only words which dont disturb your well builded pony world?!
On August 07 2014 11:20 ggviewers wrote: pony world , fairy tail, alice in wonderland... metaphor
gay propaganda for children <----- This thing doesnt exist and is why ppl say Russia is against gays. Thats why atlhetes boycoted the olympic, etc.. . If you agree with thoses laws, im sorry.
Being from Russia, cannot agree more with TB. We have lots of frozen food made out of human homosexuals here in Russia. I personally do not like it, prefer eating babies and chicken. Come to think of that... They taste the same.
Well, jokes aside, homophobia is greatly exaggerated by the media. We even have our own 'elton johns'. Honestly i would love to see them incinerated, but not because of their orientation, but the voice... And music... And lyrics. I mean if you pretend to be like Elton, you should at least sing accordingly. But back to the point. It is safe. Especially in Moscow, a rather multicultural city. In megapolis even an extremely deviant behavior is a norm. And being gay? Pfff, that's even not deviant.
Sadly enough, the rulers of any country are a minority and any grudge that is happening is totally theirs. Media on both sides completely and senselessly exaggerates what is happening. When i watch any news it seems to be like another world. A few days ago i was speaking to one of my company's customer in Ukraine (support of our products). And you know what? Neither him nor i accused each other. It was all business, kindness and best wishes. This was from the bottom of our (at least mine) hearts. And yesterday i found out we're still trading. Just so you know.
I still agree to your decision to boycott this, but purely on political grounds. The only way to make things better is to sanction the young, not the old, who rule. Close Steam, battle.net, origin. Set them up against you. Or if a person is intelligent enough make them side with you. Problem is, intelligent people never run a country (especially any fake democracy with brainwashing media, both Russia and US included). So what you're doing is ensuring that all the young Russian Starcraft fans will be more susceptible to the propaganda machine than they are now. It seems you are too, TB, i'm sorry. Thought you've had a critical mind. Nah. I still think you do, just git some blind-spot or something.
Really sad to see how a bunch of species who don't even know what Starcraft is, make borders for us.
Anyway, best wishes to TB, just found out two days ago about his medical problem. Wish you get better.
Oh, TB, if you ever need a "safe" visit (not your team, i accept your decision, but you personally) feel free to contact me. Can give you a tour.
Best of luck everyone, hope it didn't sound political, just hoped to seek some sanity in the world.
P.S. It was meant to be incoherent. My heart wants to see SC in Russia, and my brains wants to see us prosecuted for both what we are doing and what we are not doing.
Fucking soviet era all over again. Shit happens, CNN with the "news" and here you go, the actual citizens of a country are responsible for their gov's decisions, which in reality may have not even been done. Apparently I hate gays, shoot planes, start wars (in iraq? jkjk), there's blood on my hands. To top it all: it's muricans telling me that, gj.
Why so passive agressive? You have a different opinion, thats all. You have good points from my perspective but no need to be an ass. Why dont you tell us more about Russia and gays ? What are the opinions of russians? Is it worst in some part of Russia and better in Moscow? What the russian public think about the new anti-gay laws? etc..
Im not sure here is the right place for this, so mods feel free to edit my post.
Well TB's statement made me a bit angry and sad. He's not the last man in e-sports and his words have some weight for the community. As i said we had some tournaments in Russia with a lot of foreigners. Riot even made one of the lcs weeks in Moscow. And I don't really remember any accident with a foregn player. Russians couldn't counfuse asian guy with a gay. Russia borders asian countries like Kazakhstan and China, so a lot of asians come to Russia. Many chinese students are studying In my university, for example. And I've never seen them having any problems, even though most of them don't know Russian. And even if they do confuse a progamer with a gay nothing would happen. Relationship between gays and others are cold. Because it's too hard for the most of people who were born in Soviet Union to accept something that untraditional. But it doesn't mean everyone will hate you if you're a gay. It's just too strange for our people. Of course you can always find an aggressive idiot, but, in my opinion, idiots like terrorists have no nationality.
I don't think it's very different for other parts of the country. Except for probably islamic parts. Muslims are usually more radical.
Anti-gay law is not an anti-gay law at all. It's a law that should protect children from unwanted information like porn (not only gay but any porn), information about suicide, information about making drugs, etc. However, I don't know if it actually works. Our government makes one doubtful law after another and no one actually cares if they work. What Russian people think about the law? Well, they don't give a fuck. As I said, a lot of Russians were born in Soviet Union. They don't know how to use their right to be heard. They don't say a word against government. And that actually sucks.
About the Ukraine. Ukraine had been existing for 23 years mostly because of Russia. We were almost a single nation separated by retarded governments. And then the UK guy who couldn't care less about 3rd world Eastern Europe countries like Russia or Ukraine says that the way we're acting with the Ukraine is unacceptable. Do you know there's a civil war in Ukraine which they call "anti-terrorist" operation? Do those people look like terrorists?care, shock content. People leave their houses to escape from that dumb war. And where do you think they go? Right, they go to Russia. It's not Russia to act like that, it's new Ukrainian democratic government.
Remember Sochi Olympics. Same talks before games about safety, terrorist attacks, lgbt rights. And not a single accident has happened.
I still think everything is gonna be fine. Sucks that some people bring politics into esports. Sc2 community is too weak to separate like this.
How does it work from now ? Any organization sending players will be accused of "supporting" homophobia ? Because there is no middle-ground in this story.
On August 07 2014 16:18 kalstrams wrote: [Anyone who is fairly educated can find largest European country in the map since it is quite difficult to miss.
On August 07 2014 16:18 kalstrams wrote: [Anyone who is fairly educated can find largest European country in the map since it is quite difficult to miss.
Only if we count Russia as European country, which might be debatable considering the fact that most it's territory lies in Asia. However, European part of Russia is larger than Ukraine, so I guess it just depends on how you look at it.
Ukraine is for sure largest European country that lies fully in Europe.
On August 07 2014 17:27 Creager wrote: Aaaaaand esports just became a political stage.
not really, just the heat of the moment. Esports is populated with young (and nerdy lol) it mainly doesn't give a shit. Unless there's a manager who spoils the fun.
This will be the best tournaments if KR wont visit russia. But they will. Because it's their money, their job. Most of this "political" ppl in Ukraine dont even know there is a game SC2, so they will not care about gamers that will visit russian.
On August 07 2014 18:11 DeinSchatten wrote: This will be the best tournaments if KR wont visit russia.
Would you mind elaborating on your thought process behind this?
Meh, he's probably looking forward to see more European players in it. It's similar how some people in the U.S. are more interested in a specific college sport than its professional counterpart.
On August 06 2014 23:39 Faust852 wrote: Looks like pros don't really want to go to Russia :}
We're not sending players for a couple of reasons. Firstly, Russias rampant homophobia. Not only is it morally repugnant, but it puts our players at risk. Korean males are culturally very comfortable with being close to each other. Holding hands, sitting on others laps etc, not at all uncommon. In Russia this could be mistaken for gay behavior and may result in misunderstandings that could even lead to violence. There are plenty of incidents where gay or "we thought he was gay" people have been beaten in Russia. Secondly, Russias belligerence in how they're acting with the Ukraine is reason enough to keep our players out on both moral grounds and with concern to their own safety.
TB, I love you and your team but to read this is pretty painful.
First of all this whole "homophobia" thing is completely blew out of scale by the western media that tried to depict Russia as a country dangerous for gay people- it's not as easy as in some place like California but it's far from the worst. Your post unfortunately denotes a huge amount of ignorance on actual facts and about Russia itself, but I know it's not your fault because you're also brainwashed by western media. Russia has a huge amount of Chinese and southern east Asia visitors who - just like Koreans - act the way you described and there's never episodes like the one you describe where there's episodes that could lead to violence, especially on foreigners.
Second, the U.S. itself has some of the most homophobic states (and most racist states too) but you never hear about someone not sending players to a certain state because they're racist and homophobic there. Also, most of the allies of the U.S. (i.e. Saudi Arabia) execute homosexual people and put them in jail. Then Obama goes on TV and says he has no patience for countries that have homophobic remarks like Russia but forgets about their buddies like those middle eastern states from which they get oil from. And then someone like you thinks damn he's right and just pictures Russia as the bad guys forgetting EVERY super-power (US, Russia, China) is equally bad for different reasons. Some western people are so stupid to think to "boycott" Russia for this homophobia reason - which as I said is nothing more than a huge media thing against Russia that started pre-olympics due to tensions that were rising over Snowden and other issues - but you never see some American, UK or EU citizen boycott vacation in Dubai, despite the fact that it's a city built on slavery and where there are some of the strongest anti-gay laws. The view that one country is evil (Russia) and one is good (US, UK or whatever) just shows how much naive you are and the hilarious thing is that you're trying to come out as a good guy for boycotting Russia's event or rather, you have a valid reason not to support Russia- but really, what you're showing is your narrow fielded view. The U.S. does just as many bad things as Russia, and historically speaking have done even more. You probably must not know how things are in China- because you don't boycott there but that country is on far worst human rights ground than Russia and U.S.
Before you think I am biased because I am Russian, I want to tell you two things: One is that I lived most of my life in California, one year in the UK and the least amount itself in Russia and when I come back here I always remember how unfair Russians are treated by the rest of the west, especially lately. You are doing nothing more than a disservice for Russian fans. There's aton of Russian SC2 fans, and I know myself a lot of people who love (or maybe now loved) your team and players but reading this stuff is pretty sad and pathetic sorry. This boycott thing working just shows how good the U.S. media campaign is really, nothing more
But I watched Rocky IV, and Apollo Creed was downright murdered in the ring, ok?! So don't tell me that Russia isn't bad. But I think things will work themselves out in the future, because once Russia sees how brave and good hearted we (North) Americans are, we will learn to work together and the divides which separate us will be brought down.
"Thank you. I came here tonight… and I didn’t know what to expect. I’ve seen a lot of people hating me… and I didn’t know… what to feel about that, so… I guess I didn’t like you much either. During this fight… I seen a lot of changing: the way you felt about me… and the way I felt about you. In here… there were two guys… killing each other. But I guess that’s better than million. What I’m trying to say is… if I can change… and you can change… everybody can change! I just want to say one thing to my kid… who should be home sleeping. Merry Christmas, kid! I love you!" - Rocky Balboa, Rocky IV
On August 06 2014 23:39 Faust852 wrote: Looks like pros don't really want to go to Russia :}
We're not sending players for a couple of reasons. Firstly, Russias rampant homophobia. Not only is it morally repugnant, but it puts our players at risk. Korean males are culturally very comfortable with being close to each other. Holding hands, sitting on others laps etc, not at all uncommon. In Russia this could be mistaken for gay behavior and may result in misunderstandings that could even lead to violence. There are plenty of incidents where gay or "we thought he was gay" people have been beaten in Russia. Secondly, Russias belligerence in how they're acting with the Ukraine is reason enough to keep our players out on both moral grounds and with concern to their own safety.
TB, I love you and your team but to read this is pretty painful.
First of all this whole "homophobia" thing is completely blew out of scale by the western media that tried to depict Russia as a country dangerous for gay people- it's not as easy as in some place like California but it's far from the worst. Your post unfortunately denotes a huge amount of ignorance on actual facts and about Russia itself, but I know it's not your fault because you're also brainwashed by western media. Russia has a huge amount of Chinese and southern east Asia visitors who - just like Koreans - act the way you described and there's never episodes like the one you describe where there's episodes that could lead to violence, especially on foreigners.
Second, the U.S. itself has some of the most homophobic states (and most racist states too) but you never hear about someone not sending players to a certain state because they're racist and homophobic there. Also, most of the allies of the U.S. (i.e. Saudi Arabia) execute homosexual people and put them in jail. Then Obama goes on TV and says he has no patience for countries that have homophobic remarks like Russia but forgets about their buddies like those middle eastern states from which they get oil from. And then someone like you thinks damn he's right and just pictures Russia as the bad guys forgetting EVERY super-power (US, Russia, China) is equally bad for different reasons. Some western people are so stupid to think to "boycott" Russia for this homophobia reason - which as I said is nothing more than a huge media thing against Russia that started pre-olympics due to tensions that were rising over Snowden and other issues - but you never see some American, UK or EU citizen boycott vacation in Dubai, despite the fact that it's a city built on slavery and where there are some of the strongest anti-gay laws. The view that one country is evil (Russia) and one is good (US, UK or whatever) just shows how much naive you are and the hilarious thing is that you're trying to come out as a good guy for boycotting Russia's event or rather, you have a valid reason not to support Russia- but really, what you're showing is your narrow fielded view. The U.S. does just as many bad things as Russia, and historically speaking have done even more. You probably must not know how things are in China- because you don't boycott there but that country is on far worst human rights ground than Russia and U.S.
Before you think I am biased because I am Russian, I want to tell you two things: One is that I lived most of my life in California, one year in the UK and the least amount itself in Russia and when I come back here I always remember how unfair Russians are treated by the rest of the west, especially lately. You are doing nothing more than a disservice for Russian fans. There's aton of Russian SC2 fans, and I know myself a lot of people who love (or maybe now loved) your team and players but reading this stuff is pretty sad and pathetic sorry. This boycott thing working just shows how good the U.S. media campaign is really, nothing more
Even if Russia isn't as anti-gay as you claim, there's still this 'little' thing.
On August 07 2014 00:27 TotalBiscuit wrote: Russias belligerence in how they're acting with the Ukraine is reason enough to keep our players out on both moral grounds and with concern to their own safety.
On August 06 2014 21:35 Cinek357 wrote: Does anyone know if Huligan is former WC3 human player Xyligan?
lol XyLigan, it's funny to suddenly remember someone like this after so long. He was a very promising Human player, now I'm trying to remember more about him.
Holy shit, seriously? Is that TB's post for real? Russia suddenly became one of the most dangerous places on Earth for gays, like really? With all of the gay clubs in Moscow and Saint-Pete, with gays freely walking holding hands down the streets?
Nice brainwashed view of Russia you got there, TB. Way to react on that propaganda bullshit your government-controlled media's feeding you.
I'm sorry if I sound butthurt (which I do), but that TB's post just caught me off guard. I am a fan of his, watching his every video, and to hear such a bullshit from a personality I was looking up to that much. That just hurts.
TB, let me tell you one thing: there are shit load of gays in major Russian towns and gay clubs, too. Your justification not to send your players in Moscow, a fucking capital, where hundreds if not thousands of gays living freely, is just fucking stupid and ignorant on so many levels it's laughable. I live in Saint-Pete, I see gays on the streets and in a subway almost every day, I've never seen anyone saying a single word to them, let alone hurt in some way. And now you're telling me that your players are in danger in a secure place with mostly nerds, security, cameras? Yeah, way to go man.
Oh, and what the fuck the Ukraine has to do with this? There are thousands of Ukrainians living in Russia, there are thousands of Ukrainian refugees streaming from Ukraine now, getting themselves places to live and work.
Again, sorry for the rant, I'm just extremely astounded and disappointing by the ignorance and short-slightness of one of my favorite personalities. Welp,I guess you can't fight the bullshit spewing media machine some people choose to feed off from.
On August 06 2014 23:39 Faust852 wrote: Looks like pros don't really want to go to Russia :}
We're not sending players for a couple of reasons. Firstly, Russias rampant homophobia. Not only is it morally repugnant, but it puts our players at risk. Korean males are culturally very comfortable with being close to each other. Holding hands, sitting on others laps etc, not at all uncommon. In Russia this could be mistaken for gay behavior and may result in misunderstandings that could even lead to violence. There are plenty of incidents where gay or "we thought he was gay" people have been beaten in Russia. Secondly, Russias belligerence in how they're acting with the Ukraine is reason enough to keep our players out on both moral grounds and with concern to their own safety.
Second, the U.S. itself has some of the most homophobic states (and most racist states too) but you never hear about someone not sending players to a certain state because they're racist and homophobic there. Also, most of the allies of the U.S. (i.e. Saudi Arabia) execute homosexual people and put them in jail. Then Obama goes on TV and says he has no patience for countries that have homophobic remarks like Russia but forgets about their buddies like those middle eastern states from which they get oil from. And then someone like you thinks damn he's right and just pictures Russia as the bad guys forgetting EVERY super-power (US, Russia, China) is equally bad for different reasons.
Calling flat out bullshit on this one, mixed race guy here who has been extensively through Russia, Japan, Korea, Europe, Israel, Dubai, etc. and I've also been extensively through the southern US. The level of violence and police corruption is far worse in Russia than exists anywhere in the USA. There is plenty of terrible bigotry and prejudice in the USA, but Russia is far beyond that, the level of suspicion, disdain and aggression many Russians have for foreigners is crazy, literally groups of teenagers just walk around getting drunk and fucking shit up and assaulting people, none of this is uncommon, and they without a doubt target foreigners, racial minorities and people they perceive as being gay and it is for the most part ignored by the police there. In the US, you might wind up in a small town where people let you know you aren't welcome, but you are almost never going to be randomly assaulted, and police actually respond and take you seriously for the most part if a situation escalates to that.
I will grant that the middle east is far worse than Russia is in terms of persecution of LGBT individuals and people that are minorities to those countries, and is abominable. However most of those countries are not considered overall developed nations even if Dubai in particular is. As developed countries go, Russia is probably the worst major super power in regard to how it treats their gays, and the apologists who say that "well we aren't really that bad" or compare themselves to states that have banned same sex marriage, none of our celebrities are on tv telling people to execute gays, like some have in Russia.
Russia is fucking absolutely terrible and terrifying compared to the US in every single way when it comes to homophobia, the extent of it, the severity of the reaction to it, the criminality of it, and the likelihood that you will be attacked or killed as a result of being one or being perceived to be one and it is not even remotely close to the USA.
Further, as TB pointed out, none of this is a criticism or protest of the way in which Russia or any other country has chosen to govern themselves or treat sexual or racial minorities, but a valid reaction to protecting his players by not taking them to a country with active violence and political hostility, and local culture that will be hostile to the way his Korean players naturally act. There's no way shape or form he should "just tell them to knock it off" for a few days, your tournament isn't worth the safety risk.
And I frankly don't care what the Russians say anecdotally about "I've never seen anything blah blah blah" I've been there for 2 weeks and 3 weeks and saw multiple messed up scenarios including people getting randomly assaulted and I had multiple people try and pick fights with me just for being an American, literally walking down the street minding my own business and have someone yell at me scenarios.
On August 07 2014 20:53 bbkpoker wrote: And I frankly don't care what the Russians say anecdotally about "I've never seen anything blah blah blah" I've been there for 2 weeks and 3 weeks and saw multiple messed up scenarios including people getting randomly assaulted and I had multiple people try and pick fights with me just for being an American, literally walking down the street minding my own business and have someone yell at me scenarios.
Frankly, do you think anybody cares about your anecdotes?
On August 07 2014 20:53 bbkpoker wrote: And I frankly don't care what the Russians say anecdotally about "I've never seen anything blah blah blah" I've been there for 2 weeks and 3 weeks and saw multiple messed up scenarios including people getting randomly assaulted and I had multiple people try and pick fights with me just for being an American, literally walking down the street minding my own business and have someone yell at me scenarios.
I got assaulted by "muricans" yelling "fucking commie" at me in the US. Prove me wrong.
The fact is, the level of violence in Russia is exactly the same as in any other western/EU country. Hell I'm working in the Saint-Pete's university and there are loads of Americans, black, brown, everyone, as well as Brits, Indians, Chinese, Koreans, easterners. Most of them living in Russia, working for multiple months, I see thousands of tourists on the streets every day and you don't see them getting hurt or yelled at.
Are you telling me Russian people are some barbarians walking the streets with baseball bats searching for anyone to rip their head off? Like, really? Please, most of the people here are civilized, they work everyday, they have families and children, and they don't give a fuck about foreigners and gay people, just like any European country. I can google you multiple videos from the UK where some teenage retards assault people because they have some sort of a game where you must knock a person with one hit. Let's assume all Brits are inadequate fighting cunts who like to assault everyone just for fun, right?
Please, stop spewing your bullshit, it's really getting old.
On August 06 2014 21:35 Cinek357 wrote: Does anyone know if Huligan is former WC3 human player Xyligan?
lol XyLigan, it's funny to suddenly remember someone like this after so long. He was a very promising Human player, now I'm trying to remember more about him.
As far as I remember, he was pretty bad online but he delivered on lan, 2 wcg's top4 iirc. I really liked fnatic with Rotterdam, Saatini, Xyligan and Abver, they performed pretty well in team leagues against the chinese/korean powerhouses of SK, WE, BET & Co. It's a speculation but my guess is that xyligan retired, like many europeans, when the wc3 scene shifted heavily towards offline events in China. Good and full time players ready to embrace the chinese life like grubby, tod, sase or creo had a pretty long career, but the other europeans had to quit fairly early due to the lack of opportunities. Shame, wc3 was awesome
I wish Happy wins this simply because he is a hard worker in the scene and deserves it, looking at the player pool.
Still, I will not watch this Dreamhack - I have worked with people who have fled Russia and/or had relatives die/get injured due to heavy-handedness of its military and police, simply for having opinions and as such, I consider it my duty to boycott anything that would support Russia, even in the entertainment business.
Mods, I would like to publicly inquire as to exactly why did Cutt get banned for this post?
On August 07 2014 20:43 Cutt wrote: Holy shit, seriously? Is that TB's post for real? Russia suddenly became one of the most dangerous places on Earth for gays, like really? With all of the gay clubs in Moscow and Saint-Pete, with gays freely walking holding hands down the streets?
Nice brainwashed view of Russia you got there, TB. Way to react on that propaganda bullshit your government-controlled media's feeding you.
I'm sorry if I sound butthurt (which I do), but that TB's post just caught me off guard. I am a fan of his, watching his every video, and to hear such a bullshit from a personality I was looking up to that much. That just hurts.
TB, let me tell you one thing: there are shit load of gays in major Russian towns and gay clubs, too. Your justification not to send your players in Moscow, a fucking capital, where hundreds if not thousands of gays living freely, is just fucking stupid and ignorant on so many levels it's laughable. I live in Saint-Pete, I see gays on the streets and in a subway almost every day, I've never seen anyone saying a single word to them, let alone hurt in some way. And now you're telling me that your players are in danger in a secure place with mostly nerds, security, cameras? Yeah, way to go man.
Oh, and what the fuck the Ukraine has to do with this? There are thousands of Ukrainians living in Russia, there are thousands of Ukrainian refugees streaming from Ukraine now, getting themselves places to live and work.
Again, sorry for the rant, I'm just extremely astounded and disappointing by the ignorance and short-slightness of one of my favorite personalities. Welp,I guess you can't fight the bullshit spewing media machine some people choose to feed off from.
User was temp banned for this post.
Whereas, bbkpoker does not for his post? His post is clearly discriminatory and much more inflamatory - with straight up sweeping hatred of an entire nation -- ie. "Russia is fucking absolutely terrible and terrifying".
On August 06 2014 23:39 Faust852 wrote: Looks like pros don't really want to go to Russia :}
We're not sending players for a couple of reasons. Firstly, Russias rampant homophobia. Not only is it morally repugnant, but it puts our players at risk. Korean males are culturally very comfortable with being close to each other. Holding hands, sitting on others laps etc, not at all uncommon. In Russia this could be mistaken for gay behavior and may result in misunderstandings that could even lead to violence. There are plenty of incidents where gay or "we thought he was gay" people have been beaten in Russia. Secondly, Russias belligerence in how they're acting with the Ukraine is reason enough to keep our players out on both moral grounds and with concern to their own safety.
Second, the U.S. itself has some of the most homophobic states (and most racist states too) but you never hear about someone not sending players to a certain state because they're racist and homophobic there. Also, most of the allies of the U.S. (i.e. Saudi Arabia) execute homosexual people and put them in jail. Then Obama goes on TV and says he has no patience for countries that have homophobic remarks like Russia but forgets about their buddies like those middle eastern states from which they get oil from. And then someone like you thinks damn he's right and just pictures Russia as the bad guys forgetting EVERY super-power (US, Russia, China) is equally bad for different reasons.
Calling flat out bullshit on this one, mixed race guy here who has been extensively through Russia, Japan, Korea, Europe, Israel, Dubai, etc. and I've also been extensively through the southern US. The level of violence and police corruption is far worse in Russia than exists anywhere in the USA. There is plenty of terrible bigotry and prejudice in the USA, but Russia is far beyond that, the level of suspicion, disdain and aggression many Russians have for foreigners is crazy, literally groups of teenagers just walk around getting drunk and fucking shit up and assaulting people, none of this is uncommon, and they without a doubt target foreigners, racial minorities and people they perceive as being gay and it is for the most part ignored by the police there. In the US, you might wind up in a small town where people let you know you aren't welcome, but you are almost never going to be randomly assaulted, and police actually respond and take you seriously for the most part if a situation escalates to that.
I will grant that the middle east is far worse than Russia is in terms of persecution of LGBT individuals and people that are minorities to those countries, and is abominable. However most of those countries are not considered overall developed nations even if Dubai in particular is. As developed countries go, Russia is probably the worst major super power in regard to how it treats their gays, and the apologists who say that "well we aren't really that bad" or compare themselves to states that have banned same sex marriage, none of our celebrities are on tv telling people to execute gays, like some have in Russia.
Russia is fucking absolutely terrible and terrifying compared to the US in every single way when it comes to homophobia, the extent of it, the severity of the reaction to it, the criminality of it, and the likelihood that you will be attacked or killed as a result of being one or being perceived to be one and it is not even remotely close to the USA.
Further, as TB pointed out, none of this is a criticism or protest of the way in which Russia or any other country has chosen to govern themselves or treat sexual or racial minorities, but a valid reaction to protecting his players by not taking them to a country with active violence and political hostility, and local culture that will be hostile to the way his Korean players naturally act. There's no way shape or form he should "just tell them to knock it off" for a few days, your tournament isn't worth the safety risk.
Cutt did not have any sort of this seething hatred but he is somehow the one who is punished and his voice silenced. Please explain.
On August 07 2014 21:25 toocoldtocry wrote: Still, I will not watch this Dreamhack - I have worked with people who have fled Russia and/or had relatives die/get injured due to heavy-handedness of its military and police, simply for having opinions and as such, I consider it my duty to boycott anything that would support Russia, even in the entertainment business.
Oh Please, man! Sports (and we all consider cyber-sport as sport) - usually positions itself as politics independent. And it will never be true while there are people thinking like you
I'm rofling about TB :D what's about BEARs ripping gays and foreigners? Specialy trained for. Maybe some metres of SNOW over the streets and there are only VODKA as a drink? Not a choice, but it's nessesary to drink some liters of it to smell like russian or you'll be killed by bear or random crazy russian. :D
On August 07 2014 08:28 TotalBiscuit wrote: Just another piece of pondscum lying on the surface of this community that nobody will remember after today.
It seems calling people pond scum that nobody will remember (etc) is OK , meanwhile people get banned left and right for (imo) much more minior things.
/Lowly regarded person part of the evil toxic community donating and paying for SC2 and e-sports products - - -
I think the DreamHack team and crew will fit in very well in Russia at least and I'm sure it will be awesome
On August 07 2014 08:28 TotalBiscuit wrote: Just another piece of pondscum lying on the surface of this community that nobody will remember after today.
It seems calling people pond scum that nobody will remember (etc) is OK , meanwhile people get banned left and right for (imo) much more minior things.
/Lowly regarded person part of the evil toxic community donating and paying for SC2 and e-sports products
You might want to to:
A) Look at the post that prompted TB's response B) take any issues you may have with moderation to Website Feedback and keep them out of this thread.
Feel bad for Dreamhack, those guys are pretty cool. They don't really deserve to get shafted because of the situation in Russia, but then again opting to host an event there was a risk they took. I don't think there's a snowball's chance in hell they'd do it now - but payments for the venue and all of that is likely already in place, so what can you do?
V1lat from Starladder tweeted yesterday that they can't hold Starladder finals in Russia because dota2 players don't want to travel there, so while another team/owner hasn't taken an official stand like TotalBiscuit has, I'm sure the sentiment is widely shared.
Ultimately the only good reason why players shouldn't attend tournaments is when they don't want to. I'm going to assume players don't want to attend this one based on the evidence that they haven't registered for it, and whether it's fair or not shouldn't be our concern.
What you should do now is create the best crowd ever for a DH. A good crowd is a key component to a successful event. Make people regret not having been there, that will certainly help possible future iterations of the event.
On August 07 2014 08:28 TotalBiscuit wrote: Just another piece of pondscum lying on the surface of this community that nobody will remember after today.
It seems calling people pond scum that nobody will remember (etc) is OK , meanwhile people get banned left and right for (imo) much more minior things.
/Lowly regarded person part of the evil toxic community donating and paying for SC2 and e-sports products
You might want to to:
A) Look at the post that prompted TB's response B) take any issues you may have with moderation to Website Feedback and keep them out of this thread.
Exactly what I thought. TB had every right to be much worse to such a terrible person.
The nuke icon means perm ban. The nuke text in dota2fans posts means I scrubbed out his posts because he keeps on trying to dodge his ban, and I don't want to give him the statisfaction of being able to carry on his arguments even if it is 1-2 posts at a time. A ban is a ban.
I find all this trouble particularly sad, because I was actually thinking about attending this DH. I have never been to a DH event or Russia, even though I live pretty close (to Stockholm as well). The second batch better include at least Flash.
Was checking the news today when I came across an article about the whole Axiom and Dreamhack issue. Nothing big, but still kind of funny that they picked up on it. It's in Swedish but it may still be of interest to some of you.
good call on pulling axiom tb. your players would not have made it home unmolested from dreamhack moscow, let alone from a dreamhack:
never forget
i hope all the people who are going remember to put a small cyanide capsule under your tongues so you can choose the easy way out after map-picks are done as putin pulls the lever, the trap door in your booth starts to open, and you start falling down into the gay-to-straight conversion camps below.
On August 08 2014 01:52 rotta wrote: I find all this trouble particularly sad, because I was actually thinking about attending this DH. I have never been to a DH event or Russia, even though I live pretty close (to Stockholm as well). The second batch better include at least Flash.
Dreamhack Helsinki please!
C'mon, i will show you the city :D At least, better to see once than listening to everyone.
On August 07 2014 20:43 Cutt wrote: Holy shit, seriously? Is that TB's post for real? Russia suddenly became one of the most dangerous places on Earth for gays, like really? With all of the gay clubs in Moscow and Saint-Pete, with gays freely walking holding hands down the streets?
Nice brainwashed view of Russia you got there, TB. Way to react on that propaganda bullshit your government-controlled media's feeding you.
I'm sorry if I sound butthurt (which I do), but that TB's post just caught me off guard. I am a fan of his, watching his every video, and to hear such a bullshit from a personality I was looking up to that much. That just hurts.
TB, let me tell you one thing: there are shit load of gays in major Russian towns and gay clubs, too. Your justification not to send your players in Moscow, a fucking capital, where hundreds if not thousands of gays living freely, is just fucking stupid and ignorant on so many levels it's laughable. I live in Saint-Pete, I see gays on the streets and in a subway almost every day, I've never seen anyone saying a single word to them, let alone hurt in some way. And now you're telling me that your players are in danger in a secure place with mostly nerds, security, cameras? Yeah, way to go man.
Oh, and what the fuck the Ukraine has to do with this? There are thousands of Ukrainians living in Russia, there are thousands of Ukrainian refugees streaming from Ukraine now, getting themselves places to live and work.
Again, sorry for the rant, I'm just extremely astounded and disappointing by the ignorance and short-slightness of one of my favorite personalities. Welp,I guess you can't fight the bullshit spewing media machine some people choose to feed off from.
User was temp banned for this post.
That's funny to me, cause I've personally heard multiple times from countless witnesses (my russian friends here) that people were being beat up time after time en masse by gopniks (you may know the term) and similar scum when exiting rock/metal concerts and festivals. Just for that, just for their music taste and appearance. So yeah, since this kinda shit still happens to this day, and the homophobia is much more prevalent than hate towards metalheads, I think TB should rather play it safe. Better safe than sorry.
On August 08 2014 01:52 rotta wrote: I find all this trouble particularly sad, because I was actually thinking about attending this DH. I have never been to a DH event or Russia, even though I live pretty close (to Stockholm as well). The second batch better include at least Flash.
Dreamhack Helsinki please!
C'mon, i will show you the city :D At least, better to see once than listening to everyone.
I will, but not this time. My only concern is the lack of interesting players.
Whatever TB says, it is a politically motivated decision as actual threat to his players is so negligible that, if he was worried about such threats he probably should also forbid attending tournaments in geologically active areas or areas with higher incidence of diseases. Not even mentioning that there were tournaments in much more violent countries (like Brazil). Most likely self-convinced himself it is true as I doubt it is just purely a PR lie.
On the other hand people claiming that Russia is no worse in homophobia and violence are really lying to themselves. Even official statistics show Russia as much more dangerous and violent country than the "West". It is not enough to actually increase a danger to a player in international tournament by any significant margin if they don't go club-hopping and picking fights, but that does not mean it is not much worse than average developed country.
From my personnal experience, my korean friends were very scared/unconfortable to go to eastern europe for holidays. Main point was being scared of anti-asian racism. Maybe this is a part of it seeing the lack of koreans.
Now, second point, regarding the european players, it's a mess to go to russia from EU for the Visa (+ it's expensive). I understand that teams prefer send their players to Valencia, stockolm, germany, etc...
Not a discriminatory word in my post, it's an accurate summation of my experiences and I'm happy to evidence the teem gangs that target gays, the documented collusion of police to work with skinheads and others who assault gays during pride. The threat from Russian government to arrest anyone who used a basic mobile phone gay dating app, plenty of celebrity and high ranking political statements advocating violence against gays etc. We may have a few states that ban gay marriage but none of them will arrest you for saying being gay is normal. Not close.
Two days ago Putin threatened to close air space over Russia to all European airlines. This is unlikely to happen currently, but any day Russians may decide to invade Ukraine with regular army and situation will escalate. Would suck to suddenly be stuck in Moscow...
If the players are personally uncomfortable going there, then that is the right decision. If this is something that only the management is concerned about, or an attempt to make a political statement, then this is stupid. Please keep politics out of e-sports.
On August 08 2014 10:01 vinsang1000 wrote: From my personnal experience, my korean friends were very scared/unconfortable to go to eastern europe for holidays. Main point was being scared of anti-asian racism. Maybe this is a part of it seeing the lack of koreans.
Now, second point, regarding the european players, it's a mess to go to russia from EU for the Visa (+ it's expensive). I understand that teams prefer send their players to Valencia, stockolm, germany, etc...
There is no anti-asian racism in Russia Hope to see Taeja playing at Dreamhack Moscow))
On August 06 2014 23:39 Faust852 wrote: Looks like pros don't really want to go to Russia :}
We're not sending players for a couple of reasons. Firstly, Russias rampant homophobia. Not only is it morally repugnant, but it puts our players at risk. Korean males are culturally very comfortable with being close to each other. Holding hands, sitting on others laps etc, not at all uncommon. In Russia this could be mistaken for gay behavior and may result in misunderstandings that could even lead to violence. There are plenty of incidents where gay or "we thought he was gay" people have been beaten in Russia. Secondly, Russias belligerence in how they're acting with the Ukraine is reason enough to keep our players out on both moral grounds and with concern to their own safety.
EDIT: Since this is now linked on Reddit and they probably won't read my followup post. I'm reposting that here.
It's just a really sad state of affairs. I have quite a lot of Russian fans, so does the team, but the safety of the players has to come first. The political reasoning isn't even that important, almost every country does something objectionable. Should we not send players to the US because of the arguably illegal wars its waged in the past or the whole spying on its own citizens thing? You'd be short on tournaments to go to if you started doing that. The homophobic violence however is a very real thing and don't count on thugs to know the difference between gay people and typical Korean male social closeness. This homophobia, pushed by those in power, is deliberately divisive. Unite the country by persecuting a minority within it, differentiate yourselves from other countries that are more accepting, utilize the galvinisation against said minority as a banner to rally behind and in turn, rally against countries who the population now perceives as different and "the enemy". It's sad that this can still work in the internet age, though I think we are getting to the point where it is losing its effectiveness. It's hard to view other people in other countries as enemies when you interact with them every day online and see that they're just another human being like us.
So the primary reason for not sending our players is the safety concern. If we had someone on the ground who spoke Russian that we could trust we would probably be more open to the idea, but we don't, so we'd rather not send our players into that environment. Not sending our players should not be considered a boycott of the event, we just want to risk our players well-being when there are other events they could attend that don't carry those risks.
Very interesting information in 1 post: 1. Koreans looks like gays and live in same way; 2. Russian - agressors.
To the 2nd idea - all Russians reconciled with this. But On a place of Koreans I would take offense.
On August 06 2014 23:39 Faust852 wrote: Looks like pros don't really want to go to Russia :}
We're not sending players for a couple of reasons. Firstly, Russias rampant homophobia. Not only is it morally repugnant, but it puts our players at risk. Korean males are culturally very comfortable with being close to each other. Holding hands, sitting on others laps etc, not at all uncommon. In Russia this could be mistaken for gay behavior and may result in misunderstandings that could even lead to violence. There are plenty of incidents where gay or "we thought he was gay" people have been beaten in Russia. Secondly, Russias belligerence in how they're acting with the Ukraine is reason enough to keep our players out on both moral grounds and with concern to their own safety.
EDIT: Since this is now linked on Reddit and they probably won't read my followup post. I'm reposting that here.
It's just a really sad state of affairs. I have quite a lot of Russian fans, so does the team, but the safety of the players has to come first. The political reasoning isn't even that important, almost every country does something objectionable. Should we not send players to the US because of the arguably illegal wars its waged in the past or the whole spying on its own citizens thing? You'd be short on tournaments to go to if you started doing that. The homophobic violence however is a very real thing and don't count on thugs to know the difference between gay people and typical Korean male social closeness. This homophobia, pushed by those in power, is deliberately divisive. Unite the country by persecuting a minority within it, differentiate yourselves from other countries that are more accepting, utilize the galvinisation against said minority as a banner to rally behind and in turn, rally against countries who the population now perceives as different and "the enemy". It's sad that this can still work in the internet age, though I think we are getting to the point where it is losing its effectiveness. It's hard to view other people in other countries as enemies when you interact with them every day online and see that they're just another human being like us.
So the primary reason for not sending our players is the safety concern. If we had someone on the ground who spoke Russian that we could trust we would probably be more open to the idea, but we don't, so we'd rather not send our players into that environment. Not sending our players should not be considered a boycott of the event, we just want to risk our players well-being when there are other events they could attend that don't carry those risks.
Very interesting information in 1 post: 1. Koreans looks like gays and live in same way; 2. Russian - agressors.
To the 2nd idea - all Russians reconciled with this. But On a place of Koreans I would take offense.
You know you just provide evidence toward his point right? It says enough that you'd rather be labled a violent fascist than gay.
Very interesting information in 1 post: 1. Koreans looks like gays and live in same way; 2. Russian - agressors.
To the 2nd idea - all Russians reconciled with this. But On a place of Koreans I would take offense.
You know you just provide evidence toward his point right? It says enough that you'd rather be labled a violent fascist than gay.
Labling people at all is kinda wrong) Doesn't really matter if you are fine with it or you are offended.
While the line-up is not exciting, im really interested to see results and vods, there are always diamonds in the rough at events with 95% players being major underdogs
to be honest its not very safe now to run an international tourney in Moscow, not because of the safety of players in Moscow (i mean c'mon, i left my ipad mini in a cafe and a waiter was running 2 blocks to give it back to me, and NO, PEOPLE DONT CARRY GUNS in the street), but rather due to possible visa issues. This might be the saddest DH ever... And moreover it can unintentionally shut down the possibilities of future events due to this lackluster timing ...
Stop assuming russia is a 3rd world country or something. I went to moscow before and its just as safe like any other American city such as NYC, chicago, san francisco etc. However the streets are sometimes very empty which may be frightening for some but thats about it.
On August 09 2014 00:31 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: to be honest its not very safe now to run an international tourney in Moscow, not because of the safety of players in Moscow (i mean c'mon, i left my ipad mini in a cafe and a waiter was running 2 blocks to give it back to me, and NO, PEOPLE DONT CARRY GUNS in the street), but rather due to possible visa issues. This might be the saddest DH ever... And moreover it can unintentionally shut down the possibilities of future events due to this lackluster timing ...
Well, just gotta visit it, buy merch and shit, i mean cmon, its not like DH is being run by GE, doubt they will cross off Russia forever. Just till this impire clash shit is over, and the world is "at peace again"
On August 09 2014 00:48 syriuszonito wrote: Given the current situation shouldnt this event be moved somwhere else?
I would think so, but probably now its too late... i just hope that the possible bitter taste will not divert organizers to have something organized in Russia for ages later on ... We have so many awesome people who TRULLY love e-sports!
On August 09 2014 00:48 syriuszonito wrote: Given the current situation shouldnt this event be moved somwhere else?
I would think so, but probably now its too late... i just hope that the possible bitter taste will not divert organizers to have something organized in Russia for ages later on ... We have so many awesome people who TRULLY love e-sports!
It's just unfortunate series of events that has caused current situation, so I doubt that it will divert organizers totally - for the crisis duration the most, assuming DH Moscow doesn't go excessively profitable. If it does go into high profit land, they would shoot themselves in their feet by abandoning it.
At the moment though it is too early to guess since we have no idea who are the rest of players.
TB-Axiom wise I doubt that anything will change unless he gets a trustee in Moscow who could assist Axiom in further events, if need be. Even though Moscow is capital of Russian Federation, it still is not too difficult to get into trouble on various grounds, even if we discard Korean male social culture - I can't really talk about it since I have no idea.
We're not sending players for a couple of reasons. Firstly, Russias rampant homophobia. Not only is it morally repugnant, but it puts our players at risk. Korean males are culturally very comfortable with being close to each other. Holding hands, sitting on others laps etc, not at all uncommon. In Russia this could be mistaken for gay behavior and may result in misunderstandings that could even lead to violence. There are plenty of incidents where gay or "we thought he was gay" people have been beaten in Russia. Secondly, Russias belligerence in how they're acting with the Ukraine is reason enough to keep our players out on both moral grounds and with concern to their own safety.
EDIT: Since this is now linked on Reddit and they probably won't read my followup post. I'm reposting that here.
It's just a really sad state of affairs. I have quite a lot of Russian fans, so does the team, but the safety of the players has to come first. The political reasoning isn't even that important, almost every country does something objectionable. Should we not send players to the US because of the arguably illegal wars its waged in the past or the whole spying on its own citizens thing? You'd be short on tournaments to go to if you started doing that. The homophobic violence however is a very real thing and don't count on thugs to know the difference between gay people and typical Korean male social closeness. This homophobia, pushed by those in power, is deliberately divisive. Unite the country by persecuting a minority within it, differentiate yourselves from other countries that are more accepting, utilize the galvinisation against said minority as a banner to rally behind and in turn, rally against countries who the population now perceives as different and "the enemy". It's sad that this can still work in the internet age, though I think we are getting to the point where it is losing its effectiveness. It's hard to view other people in other countries as enemies when you interact with them every day online and see that they're just another human being like us.
So the primary reason for not sending our players is the safety concern. If we had someone on the ground who spoke Russian that we could trust we would probably be more open to the idea, but we don't, so we'd rather not send our players into that environment. Not sending our players should not be considered a boycott of the event, we just want to risk our players well-being when there are other events they could attend that don't carry those risks.
"Russias belligerence in how they're acting with the Ukraine is reason enough to keep our players out on both moral grounds and with concern to their own safety.
Should we not send players to the US because of the arguably illegal wars its waged in the past or the whole spying on its own citizens thing? You'd be short on tournaments to go to if you started doing that."
A more consistent reasoning would be desirable. First, you dismiss Russia due to moral grounds and the safety concern. Second, you admit that the US waged "arguably illegal wars" and "spying on it's citizens" (not only US citizens right? ). But since the US hosts so many tournaments, I understand you are willing to make an exception, cause if not, "we would be short on tournaments". My conclusion is that even though your humane moral is of an exceptionally high level, that moral is not worth nothing when it comes to e-sport.
On August 07 2014 08:28 TotalBiscuit wrote: Just another piece of pondscum lying on the surface of this community that nobody will remember after today.
It seems calling people pond scum that nobody will remember (etc) is OK , meanwhile people get banned left and right for (imo) much more minior things.
/Lowly regarded person part of the evil toxic community donating and paying for SC2 and e-sports products - - -
I think the DreamHack team and crew will fit in very well in Russia at least and I'm sure it will be awesome
When you tell someone with cancer that he will propably die, you deserve that kind of shit.
I think the absence of too many koreans is actually a good thing, they would have just stomped the local players. This way we get lower-level more-exciting matches! I hope...
On August 09 2014 21:08 peetah wrote: Should we not send players to the US because of the arguably illegal wars its waged in the past or the whole spying on its own citizens thing? You'd be short on tournaments to go to if you started doing that.
Silly argument; we can't do anything to change the past - but the situation in Ukraine is a current event.
As for the whole surveillance thing, pretty much all countries do it. NSA likely more comprehensively than most, but according to them it's legal under their own laws. It's fine if you think such things shouldn't be legal, but let's not get on too high of a horse here: Swedish wiretapping law in 2008.
On August 08 2014 10:01 vinsang1000 wrote: From my personnal experience, my korean friends were very scared/unconfortable to go to eastern europe for holidays. Main point was being scared of anti-asian racism. Maybe this is a part of it seeing the lack of koreans.
Now, second point, regarding the european players, it's a mess to go to russia from EU for the Visa (+ it's expensive). I understand that teams prefer send their players to Valencia, stockolm, germany, etc...
There is no anti-asian racism in Russia Hope to see Taeja playing at Dreamhack Moscow))
C'mon man. Let's not play stupid games here. Have you not seen the videos of immigrant markets getting trashed and the vendors beaten to a pulp by Russian skin heads? It's fine to argue that things are better than they were before or whatever (if that's the case), but to claim basically BS things like this is a little too much.
On August 09 2014 21:08 peetah wrote: Should we not send players to the US because of the arguably illegal wars its waged in the past or the whole spying on its own citizens thing? You'd be short on tournaments to go to if you started doing that.
Silly argument; we can't do anything to change the past - but the situation in Ukraine is a current event.
As for the whole surveillance thing, pretty much all countries do it. NSA likely more comprehensively than most, but according to them it's legal under their own laws. It's fine if you think such things shouldn't be legal, but let's not get on too high of a horse here: Swedish wiretapping law in 2008.
If you want to take that route, sure. The US still have troops in Afghanistan after the attack, this is not the past.
Dont get me wrong here, I didn't brought up the issue of US warfare and spying on citizens, TotalBiscuit did. I don't object having SC 2 tournaments in the US, Russia or Sweden. Why I answered him in the first place is because he is obviously using double standards.
Participate in a tournament in the US even though the aggression in the middle east - OK "You'd be short on tournaments to go to if you started doing that"
Participate in a tournament in Russia even though the aggression on Ukraine - NOT OK "Russias belligerence in how they're acting with the Ukraine is reason enough to keep our players out on both moral grounds... "
On August 08 2014 10:01 vinsang1000 wrote: From my personnal experience, my korean friends were very scared/unconfortable to go to eastern europe for holidays. Main point was being scared of anti-asian racism. Maybe this is a part of it seeing the lack of koreans.
Now, second point, regarding the european players, it's a mess to go to russia from EU for the Visa (+ it's expensive). I understand that teams prefer send their players to Valencia, stockolm, germany, etc...
There is no anti-asian racism in Russia Hope to see Taeja playing at Dreamhack Moscow))
C'mon man. Let's not play stupid games here. Have you not seen the videos of immigrant markets getting trashed and the vendors beaten to a pulp by Russian skin heads? It's fine to argue that things are better than they were before or whatever (if that's the case), but to claim basically BS things like this is a little too much.
If you don't know what are you speaking about, better not to do it, i heard. We're not calling Americans out for ability to have own weapons.
Markets (well, if you're speaking about what i think right now, one fruit-vegetable base) were getting trashed for a reason, thank God, since then, it's way more safe in the city and finally, first time in past 5-6 years, there are no news about someone getting killed/raped/dissected in Moscow. And it's not like there were only skinheads.
Gosh, those random videos with Tesak, rofl.
Anyway, if anyone comes, pm me if you need guidance in city, night excursions or other useful stuff.
On August 08 2014 10:01 vinsang1000 wrote: From my personnal experience, my korean friends were very scared/unconfortable to go to eastern europe for holidays. Main point was being scared of anti-asian racism. Maybe this is a part of it seeing the lack of koreans.
Now, second point, regarding the european players, it's a mess to go to russia from EU for the Visa (+ it's expensive). I understand that teams prefer send their players to Valencia, stockolm, germany, etc...
There is no anti-asian racism in Russia Hope to see Taeja playing at Dreamhack Moscow))
C'mon man. Let's not play stupid games here. Have you not seen the videos of immigrant markets getting trashed and the vendors beaten to a pulp by Russian skin heads? It's fine to argue that things are better than they were before or whatever (if that's the case), but to claim basically BS things like this is a little too much.
If you don't know what are you speaking about, better not to do it, i heard. We're not calling Americans out for ability to have own weapons.
Markets (well, if you're speaking about what i think right now, one fruit-vegetable base) were getting trashed for a reason, thank God, since then, it's way more safe in the city and finally, first time in past 5-6 years, there are no news about someone getting killed/raped/dissected in Moscow. And it's not like there were only skinheads.
Gosh, those random videos with Tesak, rofl.
Anyway, if anyone comes, pm me if you need guidance in city, night excursions or other useful stuff.
I will be happy to provide other kind of useful advice and shit
I'm sad that players are boycotting this event due to politics. Sports are supposed to be an opportunity for people to engage in a positive manner despite politics (e.g. Olympics and chess during the Cold War).
I'm quite shocked more bubble blizzcon people didn't sign up for this. I imagine the second wave of players will be quit detached as everyone sees the amount of points available for the taking.
russia has political issues but going to moscow is not really more dangerous than visiting most other big cities. there are areas where you don't walk alone, especially at night, but that applies to mostly any city of that size..
Totally fine with a political boycott, but don't boycott this because you think it's unsafe.
You mention morals without explaining, what is morally wrong here. Again, this competetion does not benefit russia. If it would benefit Russia, we could start talking about morals. Since it does not benefit Russia, but only russian esports fans, morals are not part of the decesion on where to hold the tournament.
We have to be realistic about our own size here. Esports has (contrary to FIFA 2018, which was mentioned earlier) not yet gotten big enough to have any real political influence. This tournament is not given to Russia because Russia asked for it or Russia wanted it, it is there, because russian fans are contributing to esports the same way everyone else does and they deserve the same reward as everyone else gets in getting the chance to attend to a live premier tournament.
You're absolutely right.
This competition in no way benefits Russia. It doesn't bring people outside of Russia to Russia that will spend any money. Obviously Dreamhack is getting the venue for free. And the foreign players, casters and attendees will bring their food from outside the country, they won't fly on Russian airlines, won't pay Russian fees, won't use Russian taxi's, they won't stay in Russian hotels...
I suppose they are going to have to drive there actually... in large trucks filled with supplies with mobile homes following, that cross the border illegally. They can't use the roads because they have check points so they'll just have to go off road on the fields that the Russian military convoys used to get into Ukraine.
EPT
bazz 
Couguar
Creed
Easy
Elmatador
eNigma
![[image loading]](http://cs412118.vk.me/v412118207/393/shna1YYjstM.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Q08L251l.jpg)
