When Bunny beat Sacsri in WCS EU Challenger League to make it back to Premier, many in the community were surprised with his performance. He had to face the most recent DreamHack champion--a player who looked like a revelation in his first offline tournament appearance--but on that night in WCS Europe, Bunny prevailed. Though he was a consistent feature of Europe's biggest tournament, he had yet to ascend the heights of his more illustrious teammates. His lack of success in major tournaments rightfully made him the underdog to the newly crowned DreamHack winner, but that label mattered not to the Liquid Terran.
Now, Bunny no longer has to worry about labels because he has made history as the first foreigner to win a sanctioned WCS tier 2 event. Gfinity may have only been a 12 player event with 3 qualifier spots, but there were no easy paths to the final. HyuN had to beat Zanster, TLO, DeMusliM and MC, while Bunny overcame DeMusliM, StarDust, TLO, Snute and HyuN to win the title. Not mentioned were the likes of MMA, jjakji, Grubby, and PiG, who completed a strong albeit small lineup.
The Battles of Britain
Day 1 went according to plan as many of the group favorites advanced to the quarter finals. The one surprise was StarDust's poor outing in London as he fell 0-2 and 1-2 to Bunny and DeMusliM respectively. He had not lost a PvT since his MLG Anaheim defeat to Polt, and had not lost to a foreign terran since Happy at Fragbite Masters back in May. Considered by many to be a favorite to win the event, getting dropped from a 3-man group like that has to be considered a grave disappointment. This did mean that hometown hero DeMusliM had one more day to impress his fans, but that day would not last long at the hands of semi finalist HyuN.
Despite reaching his first Ro8 since NASL Season 4, DeMusliM would become the only player to lose 0-2 in the quarterfinals. The series of the round was without a doubt Snute vs MMA, though it was not without some complaints. Game 1 was an atypical TvZ as Snute's composition of choice was swarm hosts against MMA's famed harass-based bio. This type of army is usually punished by drops and attacks from different angles before it can reach a critical mass, but Snute's diligent creep spread and intelligent repositioning of his main army ensured that he would not bleed from MMA's deft swipes at his economy. Game 2 on the other hand was a one sided affair when MMA's proxy reapers did considerable damage. A followup hellion runby netted a few more drones, enabling MMA to enter the mid game with a considerable economic advantage. Snute had no chance to keep up in economy, and he would fall to MMA's push. With things tied and Snute preferring to use swarm hosts whenever possible, there was no other way to end the series than with an hour long mech vs swarm host game. Though many supposed fans of the game consider these tug-of-wars to be laborious and plodding, in the right hands, these compositions can result in compelling games. That was the case here as neither player could wrest control of the game for long. MMA matched Snute at every turn, but the Norse demigod's control of swarm hosts, vipers and infestors proved too strong even for the the former Code S winner.
Snute once again proved why many consider him the best foreigner of 2014. His momentum would be stopped however, by his teammate Bunny. The Danish Terran fought tooth and nail in another teamkill in the previous round against TLO, and he would best his Norwegian compatriot in 4 games. Snute was the player to open with the lead after some clever reading of Bunny's reaper movement allowed him to eliminate them from scouting. This gave him the opportunity to surprise Bunny with roach baneling that rolled over the unprepared terran. The next three games, however, were all Bunny. Nimbus was the only thing close to a macro game in the series, but a big surge of barracks caught Snute unprepared. Bunny went straight for the jugular with an aggressive push, and Snute was unable to gather enough forces to repel the Dane's offense. The final two games on King Sejong and Merry Go Round showed just how strange teamkills can be as Bunny 2rax'd Snute on both maps. On the former, Snute overcommitted drones to his defense and lost far too many. On the latter, the zerg attempted a ling bane counter attack, but it was easily blocked by a barracks wall off. Bunny was too far ahead at that point, and he calmly claimed his place in the final soon after.
The Finals We Deserved
There he would face HyuN, who defeated MC in the Ro4. Many considered the ROCCAT Zerg the clear favorite, but once again that label meant little to Bunny. Things would not start off well for our foreign hero however as he would lose game 1 on King Sejong Station with abrupt ease after 6 lings were able to cancel his low ground CC. An 11 minute 1/1 roach timing promptly obliterated the terran's defenses, and even high ground tanks were not enough to stem the tide of units. This pattern of 1/1 mid game roaches would continue throughout the series, but Bunny's adjustments to HyuN's game plan showed that the Dane had both the micro and the intuition to win the title. The Liquid Terran switched things around as his early reapers paid dividends by scoring 6 drones. One reaper at home was enough to stop HyuN's early lings, and it was advantage terran. Things would end up even entering the mid game, however, when a roach attack caught Bunny out of position. He had just queued two dropships full of marines when the roaches took down the rocks, and 3 tanks were taken by surprise. But that would be all HyuN could seize when Bunny answered back with a strong push just before the zerg could transition into mutalisks. With a small army and a bank still morphing, HyuN did not have enough to hold, and Bunny claimed game 2 to even the series.
It was a nervy first two games, but things were about to heat up as Deadwing presented the best game of the finals. Quick speed and a baneling nest suggested that HyuN might try a bust, but after being unable to surround the initial hellions, he abandoned those plans and both players settled into their mid games. The first big engagement turned the game on its head when both players met in the middle of the map. HyuN's force of roaches, zerglings and banelings looked overwhelming, but a hot pickup by Bunny into HyuN's natural inflicted near catastrophic losses. 28 drones were dead, but HyuN was not done. He counterattacked without hesitation and was, at the same time as the drop, knocking on Bunny's front door. The Dane had no choice but to pull SCVs, but roaches were already in the main. By the end of the mutual onslaught, the terran and zerg were down to 34 and 55 workers respectively. The action continued as either player was constantly attacking, and each engagement was highlighted by Bunny's improbable splits and HyuN's improbably holds. Now with ling muta bane, HyuN's evasive army movement eventually forced a base trade, but while HyuN sacrificed his banelings on SCVs, Bunny was knocking down hatcheries. With his production hampered and his banelings gone, HyuN could not rally enough units to eliminate Bunny's army, and he was forced to gg.
The next game would not live up to the excitement of the last as HyuN was able to overwhelm the terran with roach hydra. With a good spread and the exact number of roaches, HyuN was able to eliminate all of the marines with most of his hydras intact. With half the supply and a 3rd command center shot down from the sky, Bunny had no choice but to concede. That would be HyuN's last win of the night though as Bunny turned things up to 11 to close things out in 6 games. Both were exciting macro games with multiple engagements, but it was Bunny's care and precision in picking the right spots to fight that won the day. On Nimbus, a big fight at the ramp of his fourth erased half of HyuN's army at the cost of a few marines. The thor's new attack priority once again proved decisive in big fights when HyuN's poor management allowed one thor to kill almost a dozen mutalisks. Along with Bunny's almost machine like splits, his parade push down the zerg's throat could not be stopped. It would be more of the same on Catallena. After having his third base cancelled put him at a disadvantage, HyuN would do himself no favors by repeatedly engaging off creep. That was bad enough, but his late baneling speed allowed Bunny to take favorable engagements time and time again. HyuN was able to hold once he was able to get his mutalisk count up, but the pendulum swung one last time with a brilliant piece of positioning by Bunny. By camping just below the zerg fourth in a small pocket with marines and shooting at mutalisks with his thor, Bunny forced HyuN into a terrible fight. Bleeding profusely, HyuN tried a desperate counter attack, but no amount of zerglings and banelings seemed to be able to take down Bunny's planetary fortress. With one last push down the middle, Bunny took game 6 and the Gfinity title.
The First of His Kind
The entire day was a lesson in TvZ. Bunny took down three very different players int he knockout stages in TLO, Snute and HyuN, and he looked like the superior player in all three series. His marine splits looked sublime, but his positioning and ability to take favorable engagements earned him his coveted trophy, the first for a foreigner in a Tier 2 WCS event. Though Snute has often received the accolades as the world's best foreigner, this win shows that he has competition to the title in his very own team. Bunny's victory against HyuN comes at the perfect time with Season 3 of WCS just beginning. It's the final opportunity for a foreigner to finally break the competition's Korean monopoly, and as Bunny has shown, there is no underdog when one plays to the best of his abilities. He will be one of the players to watch out for in WCS EU, and a good tournament could even catapult him into Blizzcon. Though the tournament was one of the least hyped tier 2 events in recent memory, it could be one of the turning points of the year.
Wow, I'm speechless, when you look at the lineup you'd never imagine in a million years that little Bunny would emerge the victor through the qualifiers in a tournament stacked full of Korean European champions, not to mention heavyweights like Snute and TLO.
I think Bunny's true nature has finally been revealed to the world... I am sure he is hopping up and down with joy right now.
I understand that people see "foreigner beat korean in a finals" and want to be blinded by this concept of "hype" (one of the worst buzzwords to exist in this era IMO) but I feel like this should be said:
For a while, overseas events in particular have had basically the same handful of low-mid tier Koreans (compared to Code S competitors) attending them to face off against foreigners who are admittedly better than average. I feel that this is more than likely in an attempt to set this kind of scenario up, because it's obvious how much attention events receive and how easy it is to "hype" up the chance of something like this happening. However, if you step back and compare the kind of Korean they're facing, it's really not that impressive, and it's almost expected at this point for these Koreans to lose, because they're not the same quality of Korean that competes in Korea.
To me, it seems like these Koreans in particular (coincidentally, MC HyuN jjakji MMA StarDust are perhaps the five that attend the most of these events out of any set of Koreans) keep being invited because not only are foreign fans more capable of recognizing them compared to other Koreans (because they keep getting invited) but also because to a foreigner, they're the most beatable Koreans nowadays, and when all the vast majority of foreign fans are capable of seeing is "a foreigner beat a Korean", the quality of Korean that the foreigner is beating is irrelevant.
I don't mean to rain on a parade here, but it's been obvious for a while, to me at least, what tournaments have been trying to do in this regard when it comes to the whole foreigner taking on the Korean menace bias. I'm probably going to be lambasted because people still think of most of those players listed as if they're still in their 2012 form, which would make a foreigner beating them special, but it's almost 2015, and nearly every single Korean that is actively invited and/or attends foreign events would more than likely struggle to qualify for Code A - just like foreigners.
On August 04 2014 18:39 sunship wrote: I understand that people see "foreigner beat korean in a finals" and want to be blinded by this concept of "hype" (one of the worst buzzwords to exist in this era IMO) but I feel like this should be said:
For a while, overseas events in particular have had basically the same handful of low-mid tier Koreans (compared to Code S competitors) attending them to face off against foreigners who are admittedly better than average. I feel that this is more than likely in an attempt to set this kind of scenario up, because it's obvious how much attention events receive and how easy it is to "hype" up the chance of something like this happening. However, if you step back and compare the kind of Korean they're facing, it's really not that impressive, and it's almost expected at this point for these Koreans to lose, because they're not the same quality of Korean that competes in Korea.
To me, it seems like these Koreans in particular (coincidentally, MC HyuN jjakji MMA StarDust are perhaps the five that attend the most of these events out of any set of Koreans) keep being invited because not only are foreign fans more capable of recognizing them compared to other Koreans (because they keep getting invited) but also because to a foreigner, they're the most beatable Koreans nowadays, and when all the vast majority of foreign fans are capable of seeing is "a foreigner beat a Korean", the quality of Korean that the foreigner is beating is irrelevant.
I don't mean to rain on a parade here, but it's been obvious for a while, to me at least, what tournaments have been trying to do in this regard when it comes to the whole foreigner taking on the Korean menace bias. I'm probably going to be lambasted because people still think of most of those players listed as if they're still in their 2012 form, which would make a foreigner beating them special, but it's almost 2015, and nearly every single Korean that is actively invited and/or attends foreign events would more than likely struggle to qualify for Code A - just like foreigners.
I think this greatly undervalues the accomplishment.
Those guys are not Code S champions that is true. However they are at the top of the WCS rankings. They got there because they have proven to be ahead of the foreigners every time they face them. For most of them their skill level appears to be Code S level even if it is not Code S championship level.
and it's almost expected at this point for these Koreans to lose, because they're not the same quality of Korean that competes in Korea.
If you look at their results they clearly are not expected to lose to foreigners. It's downright idiotic to say that. How do you think they became WCS EU champions and are topping the WCS leaderboard? They certainly didn't do that by letting foreigners get the best of them.
That's who he took out and who others have not been able to take out before him. It's incredibly impressive. Nobody is claiming he won a Code S championship.
Though many supposed fans of the game consider these tug-of-wars to be laborious and plodding, in the right hands, these compositions can result in compelling games.
Not sure why you felt the need to take a shot at people who dislike Swarm Hosts by implying that they're not truly fans of the game...
Not sure why you would want to start a nice victory article off with a reply like this but I guess that's also the reason why some ppl do nothing but complain about swarm host. Their day just isn't complete unless they can whine about something.
It's nice to have a foreign terran hope again. I think the last time we really had one was thorzain back around 2012. It's been a long time waiting for the fans. I thought lucifron or happy would be the standard bearer, but they always fell short. Glad to see bunny picking up the torch.
On August 04 2014 18:39 sunship wrote: I understand that people see "foreigner beat korean in a finals" and want to be blinded by this concept of "hype" (one of the worst buzzwords to exist in this era IMO) but I feel like this should be said:
For a while, overseas events in particular have had basically the same handful of low-mid tier Koreans (compared to Code S competitors) attending them to face off against foreigners who are admittedly better than average. I feel that this is more than likely in an attempt to set this kind of scenario up, because it's obvious how much attention events receive and how easy it is to "hype" up the chance of something like this happening. However, if you step back and compare the kind of Korean they're facing, it's really not that impressive, and it's almost expected at this point for these Koreans to lose, because they're not the same quality of Korean that competes in Korea.
To me, it seems like these Koreans in particular (coincidentally, MC HyuN jjakji MMA StarDust are perhaps the five that attend the most of these events out of any set of Koreans) keep being invited because not only are foreign fans more capable of recognizing them compared to other Koreans (because they keep getting invited) but also because to a foreigner, they're the most beatable Koreans nowadays, and when all the vast majority of foreign fans are capable of seeing is "a foreigner beat a Korean", the quality of Korean that the foreigner is beating is irrelevant.
I don't mean to rain on a parade here, but it's been obvious for a while, to me at least, what tournaments have been trying to do in this regard when it comes to the whole foreigner taking on the Korean menace bias. I'm probably going to be lambasted because people still think of most of those players listed as if they're still in their 2012 form, which would make a foreigner beating them special, but it's almost 2015, and nearly every single Korean that is actively invited and/or attends foreign events would more than likely struggle to qualify for Code A - just like foreigners.
I think this greatly devalues the accomplishment.
Those guys are not Code S champions that is true. However they are at the top of the WCS rankings. They got there because they have proven to be ahead of the foreigners every time they face them. For most of them their skill level appears to be Code S level even if it is not Code S championship level.
and it's almost expected at this point for these Koreans to lose, because they're not the same quality of Korean that competes in Korea.
If you look at their results they clearly are not expected to lose to foreigners. It's downright idiotic to say that. How do you think they became WCS EU champions and are topping the WCS leaderboard? They certainly didn't do that by letting foreigners get the best of them.
That's who he took out and who others have not been able to take out before him. It's incredibly impressive. Nobody is claiming he won a Code S championship.
Well, technically MMA, MC and Jjakji are Code S champions. I see your point ofc., but the choice of words here bothers me a bit. If you win Code S, you stay a Code S champion for the rest of your life. It doesn't just go away, because of the time, that has passed since than.
Congratz Bunny! A shame I was unable to watch this tournament : / (Next time I want TLO to win. I think that day I'll have to open a bottle of champagne).
On August 04 2014 18:39 sunship wrote: I understand that people see "foreigner beat korean in a finals" and want to be blinded by this concept of "hype" (one of the worst buzzwords to exist in this era IMO) but I feel like this should be said:
For a while, overseas events in particular have had basically the same handful of low-mid tier Koreans (compared to Code S competitors) attending them to face off against foreigners who are admittedly better than average. I feel that this is more than likely in an attempt to set this kind of scenario up, because it's obvious how much attention events receive and how easy it is to "hype" up the chance of something like this happening. However, if you step back and compare the kind of Korean they're facing, it's really not that impressive, and it's almost expected at this point for these Koreans to lose, because they're not the same quality of Korean that competes in Korea.
To me, it seems like these Koreans in particular (coincidentally, MC HyuN jjakji MMA StarDust are perhaps the five that attend the most of these events out of any set of Koreans) keep being invited because not only are foreign fans more capable of recognizing them compared to other Koreans (because they keep getting invited) but also because to a foreigner, they're the most beatable Koreans nowadays, and when all the vast majority of foreign fans are capable of seeing is "a foreigner beat a Korean", the quality of Korean that the foreigner is beating is irrelevant.
I don't mean to rain on a parade here, but it's been obvious for a while, to me at least, what tournaments have been trying to do in this regard when it comes to the whole foreigner taking on the Korean menace bias. I'm probably going to be lambasted because people still think of most of those players listed as if they're still in their 2012 form, which would make a foreigner beating them special, but it's almost 2015, and nearly every single Korean that is actively invited and/or attends foreign events would more than likely struggle to qualify for Code A - just like foreigners.
I think this greatly undervalues the accomplishment.
Those guys are not Code S champions that is true. However they are at the top of the WCS rankings. They got there because they have proven to be ahead of the foreigners every time they face them. For most of them their skill level appears to be Code S level even if it is not Code S championship level.
and it's almost expected at this point for these Koreans to lose, because they're not the same quality of Korean that competes in Korea.
If you look at their results they clearly are not expected to lose to foreigners. It's downright idiotic to say that. How do you think they became WCS EU champions and are topping the WCS leaderboard? They certainly didn't do that by letting foreigners get the best of them.
That's who he took out and who others have not been able to take out before him. It's incredibly impressive. Nobody is claiming he won a Code S championship.
I find it funny that 3 of those 5 koreans mentioned (MC, MMA and jjakji) ARE GSL champions, and HyuN a finalist.
While currently they probably are not on the same level as the top korean players, they are not that far off. Every time they face off against Code S ro8+ players, they put up a good fight and are never outclassed.
One has to keep in mind that as a player outside of korea, practice will be harder, no matter if you're a foreigner or a former GSL champion. Maybe the GEM house will be the exception to this, seeing as they are gathering quite the amount of top koreans at the same place.
edit: Not sure what I'm trying to get at. Probably that while MC, HyuN and the likes aren't the best of the best, they are as good as one gets while still travelling a lot, and that top koreans would probably also lose a bit of their skill if they did the same.
On August 04 2014 18:39 sunship wrote: I understand that people see "foreigner beat korean in a finals" and want to be blinded by this concept of "hype" (one of the worst buzzwords to exist in this era IMO) but I feel like this should be said:
For a while, overseas events in particular have had basically the same handful of low-mid tier Koreans (compared to Code S competitors) attending them to face off against foreigners who are admittedly better than average. I feel that this is more than likely in an attempt to set this kind of scenario up, because it's obvious how much attention events receive and how easy it is to "hype" up the chance of something like this happening. However, if you step back and compare the kind of Korean they're facing, it's really not that impressive, and it's almost expected at this point for these Koreans to lose, because they're not the same quality of Korean that competes in Korea.
To me, it seems like these Koreans in particular (coincidentally, MC HyuN jjakji MMA StarDust are perhaps the five that attend the most of these events out of any set of Koreans) keep being invited because not only are foreign fans more capable of recognizing them compared to other Koreans (because they keep getting invited) but also because to a foreigner, they're the most beatable Koreans nowadays, and when all the vast majority of foreign fans are capable of seeing is "a foreigner beat a Korean", the quality of Korean that the foreigner is beating is irrelevant.
I don't mean to rain on a parade here, but it's been obvious for a while, to me at least, what tournaments have been trying to do in this regard when it comes to the whole foreigner taking on the Korean menace bias. I'm probably going to be lambasted because people still think of most of those players listed as if they're still in their 2012 form, which would make a foreigner beating them special, but it's almost 2015, and nearly every single Korean that is actively invited and/or attends foreign events would more than likely struggle to qualify for Code A - just like foreigners.
I think this greatly devalues the accomplishment. Those guys are not Code S champions that is true. However they are at the top of the WCS rankings (top 3 in fact as well as 9 and 18 with MMA crushing every team league). They have proven to be ahead of the non-Koreans every time they face them. Their skill level appears to be Code S level even if it is not Code S championship level. That's who he took out and who others have not been able to take out before him. It's incredibly impressive. Nobody is claiming he won a Code S championship.
"and it's almost expected at this point for these Koreans to lose, because they're not the same quality of Korean that competes in Korea."
If you look at their results they clearly are not expected to lose. It's dowright idiotic to say that.
To be fair to the guy you responded to it's harder for the code s Koreans to get these points, but last years blizzcon had the koreans in EU NA getting further than the code s koreans. We will see if this holds true one year later at this blizzcon.
Hes totally right, just take a look at ur own TLPD rankings and compare it to the wcs ranking, not even one of the 10 highest WCS players is in your Top 10. That WCS system is the problem, european and foreignkoreans get most WCS points despite having the easiest opponents just because they get the biggest support from their teams and organisations.
Bunny did great, he deserved the win and all, but was it worth 750 WCS points ? Clearly not. thats the amount u get for getting RO4 in Code S, which is with any love for Bunny and the whole TeamLiquid not even close to comparable.
And Hyun was nearly a Code S Champion (runner-up in Code S 2012 Season 5). Don't understand why anyone (supposed fans of the game ) would want to minimize Bunny's achievement. Furthermore, the final match was very entertaining, which is probably what matters most for the 35k people that were watching.
On August 04 2014 18:39 sunship wrote: I understand that people see "foreigner beat korean in a finals" and want to be blinded by this concept of "hype" (one of the worst buzzwords to exist in this era IMO) but I feel like this should be said:
For a while, overseas events in particular have had basically the same handful of low-mid tier Koreans (compared to Code S competitors) attending them to face off against foreigners who are admittedly better than average. I feel that this is more than likely in an attempt to set this kind of scenario up, because it's obvious how much attention events receive and how easy it is to "hype" up the chance of something like this happening. However, if you step back and compare the kind of Korean they're facing, it's really not that impressive, and it's almost expected at this point for these Koreans to lose, because they're not the same quality of Korean that competes in Korea.
To me, it seems like these Koreans in particular (coincidentally, MC HyuN jjakji MMA StarDust are perhaps the five that attend the most of these events out of any set of Koreans) keep being invited because not only are foreign fans more capable of recognizing them compared to other Koreans (because they keep getting invited) but also because to a foreigner, they're the most beatable Koreans nowadays, and when all the vast majority of foreign fans are capable of seeing is "a foreigner beat a Korean", the quality of Korean that the foreigner is beating is irrelevant.
I don't mean to rain on a parade here, but it's been obvious for a while, to me at least, what tournaments have been trying to do in this regard when it comes to the whole foreigner taking on the Korean menace bias. I'm probably going to be lambasted because people still think of most of those players listed as if they're still in their 2012 form, which would make a foreigner beating them special, but it's almost 2015, and nearly every single Korean that is actively invited and/or attends foreign events would more than likely struggle to qualify for Code A - just like foreigners.
On August 04 2014 19:01 einherier wrote: Hes totally right, just take a look at ur own TLPD rankings and compare it to the wcs ranking, not even one of the 10 highest WCS players is in your Top 10. That WCS system is the problem, european and foreignkoreans get most WCS points despite having the easiest opponents just because they get the biggest support from their teams and organisations.
Bunny did great, he deserved the win and all, but was it worth 750 WCS points ? Clearly not. thats the amount u get for getting RO4 in Code S, which is with any love for Bunny and the whole TeamLiquid not even close to comparable.
I think you are undervaluing Bunny's accomplishment by trying to equate a tournament's standing in the context of wcs points. According to tree hugger
Bunny has become...
The first non-Korean player to win a WCS point tournament ever. The first non-Korean Terran to win a major offline tournament since Xenocider won IEF 2013 The first non-Korean terran to win a tournament with significant Koreans in attendance (major or premier) since ThorZaIN won 2012 DH Open Stockholm
On August 04 2014 19:01 RHoudini wrote: And Hyun was nearly a Code S Champion (runner-up in Code S 2012 Season 5). Don't understand why anyone (supposed fans of the game ) would want to minimize Bunny's achievement. Furthermore, the final match was very entertaining, which is probably what matters most for the 35k people that were watching.
Some ppl just get jealous when someone is successful in something they love.
On August 04 2014 19:01 einherier wrote: That WCS system is the problem, european and foreignkoreans get most WCS points despite having the easiest opponents just because they get the biggest support from their teams and organisations.
Surely at some point the Koreans themselves need to step up and improve their scene. We already have Koreans winning WCS EU and US, should they also be receiving extra WCS pity points now?
All the tournaments are in Europe and the US, because that is where the vast majority of fans and money are, so either more Korean players need to travel to these events, or there needs to be more Korean events.
I watched Broodwar, and i know why Korea has a special place, in the heart of a lot of Starcraft fans i just don't think the scene is helped by them constantly getting special treatment.
On August 04 2014 18:39 sunship wrote: I'm probably going to be lambasted
Damn right you are going to be lambasted.
Your whole post not only disrespects the Koreans who attended the event, you're also trying to undermine the legitimate achievement of the champion himself. As well as all the Koreans that attended the qualifiers.
First off, try taking a look at all the Koreans who have participated in the event that you're trying to label as weaker than the top Koreans: - Hyun - Stardust - jjakji - MC - MMA
Check all their tournament and team league performances just for Heart of the Swarm. Heart of the Swarm did not come out in 2012. Check their recent accomplishments. Check their performances in 2013 and 2014.
Now try saying the same bullshit you just spouted.
You not only dissed a reigning WCS EU champion in Stardust, you also dissed a multiple runner-up and former WCS EU champion in MC, and the previous champion before him who is also a current team league monster in MMA. Not to mention Hyun, who has placed highly in many tournaments in both 2013 and 2014 and is also the former reigning champion of WCS AM, and jjakji who always manages to get deep into tournaments he enters, regardless of the amount of Koreans present. These same people have fought against many current Kespa team players and have traded wins with some of their best and continue to do so. The same people who hold WCS rankings 1 (MC), 2 (Hyun), 3 (Stardust), 9 (jjakji) and 19 (MMA).
You deserve all the hate you are going to get for your stupid post, and I hope you will learn to stop saying stupid shit like this from now on.
All the tournaments are in Europe and the US, because that is where the vast majority of fans and money are, so either more Korean players need to travel to these events, or there needs to be more Korean events.
Yeah thats the problem, fans wanna see such foreigner wins against top korean stuff, but this is not whats happening. we see a foreigner win against a midtier korean leading in a corrupted ranking (wcs). gfinity and blizzard are they ones to blame for this, gfinity clearly was aganist the WCS rules.
sure its an important news and an astounding achievement, but it still leaves a bad taste.
Gratz to Bunny, truly we waited long time since Snute's HomeStory Cup. It was always either Scarlett/Zerg or NaNiwa/Protoss but ended up being Bunny/Terran.
All the tournaments are in Europe and the US, because that is where the vast majority of fans and money are, so either more Korean players need to travel to these events, or there needs to be more Korean events.
Yeah thats the problem, fans wanna see such foreigner wins against top korean stuff, but this is not whats happening. we see a foreigner win against a midtier korean leading in a corrupted ranking (wcs). gfinity and blizzard are they ones to blame for this, gfinity clearly was aganist the WCS rules.
sure its an important news and an astounding achievement, but it still leaves a bad taste.
My point was that there is nothing stopping these top tier Koreans from attending the same tournaments as every other player, they can choose not to, but I don't think we should give them pity points for sitting at home. If they cannot afford the travel, then they should work on creating more tournaments in Korea, there are a ton smaller tournaments in Europe and the US, there is no reason Korea can't have the same thing. I doubt that the majority of fans really care whether a Korean is mid-tier or not, I don't watch GSL and Pro league, so I honestly don't know much about what goes on there, or who the latest top tier player is. Hyun is known to a lot of people, and they consider him to be really good at the game, that is all they need.
On August 04 2014 18:43 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Those guys are not Code S champions that is true. However they are at the top of the WCS rankings. They got there because they have proven to be ahead of the foreigners every time they face them. For most of them their skill level appears to be Code S level even if it is not Code S championship level.
That's who he took out and who others have not been able to take out before him. It's incredibly impressive. Nobody is claiming he won a Code S championship.
I think people are stuck on "Not in Code S = Bad" when in reality theres many people not in Code S that could easily be considered the best players in the world.
On August 04 2014 18:39 sunship wrote: I understand that people see "foreigner beat korean in a finals" and want to be blinded by this concept of "hype" (one of the worst buzzwords to exist in this era IMO) but I feel like this should be said:
For a while, overseas events in particular have had basically the same handful of low-mid tier Koreans (compared to Code S competitors) attending them to face off against foreigners who are admittedly better than average. I feel that this is more than likely in an attempt to set this kind of scenario up, because it's obvious how much attention events receive and how easy it is to "hype" up the chance of something like this happening. However, if you step back and compare the kind of Korean they're facing, it's really not that impressive, and it's almost expected at this point for these Koreans to lose, because they're not the same quality of Korean that competes in Korea.
To me, it seems like these Koreans in particular (coincidentally, MC HyuN jjakji MMA StarDust are perhaps the five that attend the most of these events out of any set of Koreans) keep being invited because not only are foreign fans more capable of recognizing them compared to other Koreans (because they keep getting invited) but also because to a foreigner, they're the most beatable Koreans nowadays, and when all the vast majority of foreign fans are capable of seeing is "a foreigner beat a Korean", the quality of Korean that the foreigner is beating is irrelevant.
I don't mean to rain on a parade here, but it's been obvious for a while, to me at least, what tournaments have been trying to do in this regard when it comes to the whole foreigner taking on the Korean menace bias. I'm probably going to be lambasted because people still think of most of those players listed as if they're still in their 2012 form, which would make a foreigner beating them special, but it's almost 2015, and nearly every single Korean that is actively invited and/or attends foreign events would more than likely struggle to qualify for Code A - just like foreigners.
On August 04 2014 19:01 einherier wrote: Hes totally right, just take a look at ur own TLPD rankings and compare it to the wcs ranking, not even one of the 10 highest WCS players is in your Top 10. That WCS system is the problem, european and foreignkoreans get most WCS points despite having the easiest opponents just because they get the biggest support from their teams and organisations.
Bunny did great, he deserved the win and all, but was it worth 750 WCS points ? Clearly not. thats the amount u get for getting RO4 in Code S, which is with any love for Bunny and the whole TeamLiquid not even close to comparable.
I get that some ppl don`t consider this a big win since there are no GSL koreans in this tournament, but this doesn`t mean that Bunny doesnt had a great run, just be happy for him.
About the best koreans in the world again.. GSL is a different format.. with a lot of preparation between the games, which suits better the players who are not traveling allot and can prepare for the games. I agree that there are a core of like 8 kespa koreans who are in top 16 players of the world, but you cannot talk trash on Taeja for example who have beaten lot of kespa koreans and he didn`t even won a WCS or GSL so far. Also agree that WCS system is somehow corrupt and some players have more access to rated tournaments, but this game is made for the viewers and any tournament which has foreigners or eu/na koreans in it will rise more viewers. Last words.. if you put top 8 koreans from kespa vs top 8 non kespa players (koreans+foreigners) probably the kespa players will win, but it will not be 8-0.. probably 8-4, 8-5.
On August 04 2014 18:43 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Those guys are not Code S champions that is true. However they are at the top of the WCS rankings. They got there because they have proven to be ahead of the foreigners every time they face them. For most of them their skill level appears to be Code S level even if it is not Code S championship level.
That's who he took out and who others have not been able to take out before him. It's incredibly impressive. Nobody is claiming he won a Code S championship.
I think people are stuck on "Not in Code S = Bad" when in reality theres many people not in Code S that could easily be considered the best players in the world.
If your not competing at the top level in korea, you dont deserve to be labelled the best player in the world.
On August 04 2014 21:01 Nuka wrote: hahaha look at him kissing the trophy like he thinks hes won a GSL... but this tournament has some pathetic koreans such as all-in MC and hyun
The only one pathetic in this comment is author. Go away.
On August 04 2014 18:43 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Those guys are not Code S champions that is true. However they are at the top of the WCS rankings. They got there because they have proven to be ahead of the foreigners every time they face them. For most of them their skill level appears to be Code S level even if it is not Code S championship level.
That's who he took out and who others have not been able to take out before him. It's incredibly impressive. Nobody is claiming he won a Code S championship.
I think people are stuck on "Not in Code S = Bad" when in reality theres many people not in Code S that could easily be considered the best players in the world.
If your not competing at the top level in korea, you dont deserve to be labelled the best player in the world.
Or you just don't want to be in Korea for some reason...?
On August 04 2014 18:43 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Those guys are not Code S champions that is true. However they are at the top of the WCS rankings. They got there because they have proven to be ahead of the foreigners every time they face them. For most of them their skill level appears to be Code S level even if it is not Code S championship level.
That's who he took out and who others have not been able to take out before him. It's incredibly impressive. Nobody is claiming he won a Code S championship.
I think people are stuck on "Not in Code S = Bad" when in reality theres many people not in Code S that could easily be considered the best players in the world.
If your not competing at the top level in korea, you dont deserve to be labelled the best player in the world.
Or you just don't want to be in Korea for some reason...?
On August 04 2014 18:39 sunship wrote: I'm probably going to be lambasted
Damn right you are going to be lambasted.
Your whole post not only disrespects the Koreans who attended the event, you're also trying to undermine the legitimate achievement of the champion himself. As well as all the Koreans that attended the qualifiers.
First off, try taking a look at all the Koreans who have participated in the event that you're trying to label as weaker than the top Koreans: - Hyun - Stardust - jjakji - MC - MMA
Check all their tournament and team league performances just for Heart of the Swarm. Heart of the Swarm did not come out in 2012. Check their recent accomplishments. Check their performances in 2013 and 2014.
Now try saying the same bullshit you just spouted.
You not only dissed a reigning WCS EU champion in Stardust, you also dissed a multiple runner-up and former WCS EU champion in MC, and the previous champion before him who is also a current team league monster in MMA. Not to mention Hyun, who has placed highly in many tournaments in both 2013 and 2014 and is also the former reigning champion of WCS AM, and jjakji who always manages to get deep into tournaments he enters, regardless of the amount of Koreans present. These same people have fought against many current Kespa team players and have traded wins with some of their best and continue to do so. The same people who hold WCS rankings 1 (MC), 2 (Hyun), 3 (Stardust), 9 (jjakji) and 19 (MMA).
You deserve all the hate you are going to get for your stupid post, and I hope you will learn to stop saying stupid shit like this from now on.
hahahahhahahha id love to see all them koreans in code-s today. Just because they win some stupid foreign joke tournament dosent mean they are capable of competing anymore at top level play. I will keep spouting my bs thanks
On August 04 2014 18:43 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Those guys are not Code S champions that is true. However they are at the top of the WCS rankings. They got there because they have proven to be ahead of the foreigners every time they face them. For most of them their skill level appears to be Code S level even if it is not Code S championship level.
That's who he took out and who others have not been able to take out before him. It's incredibly impressive. Nobody is claiming he won a Code S championship.
I think people are stuck on "Not in Code S = Bad" when in reality theres many people not in Code S that could easily be considered the best players in the world.
If your not competing at the top level in korea, you dont deserve to be labelled the best player in the world.
Or you just don't want to be in Korea for some reason...?
Yeah because you'll lose code-s.
Or because culture, language, socialisation, homesickness etc.
Well we did have a couple of foreigners who were labelled the best at the time competing in gsl. This is when MC could all in everygame in korea and still win, What happened to them? Oh.
On August 04 2014 18:43 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Those guys are not Code S champions that is true. However they are at the top of the WCS rankings. They got there because they have proven to be ahead of the foreigners every time they face them. For most of them their skill level appears to be Code S level even if it is not Code S championship level.
That's who he took out and who others have not been able to take out before him. It's incredibly impressive. Nobody is claiming he won a Code S championship.
I think people are stuck on "Not in Code S = Bad" when in reality theres many people not in Code S that could easily be considered the best players in the world.
If your not competing at the top level in korea, you dont deserve to be labelled the best player in the world.
Or you just don't want to be in Korea for some reason...?
Yeah because you'll lose code-s.
You not neccesarily lose in Code S, just because you don't participate in it. Taeja is probably top 3 terran on the planet and does not participate in Code S. Let's be honest here, could Cure/TY/Reality 3-0 Zest? I find that highly unlikely. Ofc. Code S is still the strongest tournament in the world, but it is also suffering from the region split. I don't think, that people like Hush or Terminator could make it to Code S, if Taeja, Hyun, MC, Bomber, San and co would still be in korea.
On August 04 2014 18:43 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Those guys are not Code S champions that is true. However they are at the top of the WCS rankings. They got there because they have proven to be ahead of the foreigners every time they face them. For most of them their skill level appears to be Code S level even if it is not Code S championship level.
That's who he took out and who others have not been able to take out before him. It's incredibly impressive. Nobody is claiming he won a Code S championship.
I think people are stuck on "Not in Code S = Bad" when in reality theres many people not in Code S that could easily be considered the best players in the world.
If your not competing at the top level in korea, you dont deserve to be labelled the best player in the world.
Or you just don't want to be in Korea for some reason...?
Yeah because you'll lose code-s.
You not neccesarily lose in Code S, just because you don't participate in it. Taeja is probably top 3 terran on the planet and does not participate in Code S. Let's be honest here, could Cure/TY/Reality 3-0 Zest? I find that highly unlikely. Ofc. Code S is still the strongest tournament in the world, but it is also suffering from the region split. I don't think, that people like Hush or Terminator could make it to Code S, if Taeja, Hyun, MC, Bomber, San and co would still be in korea.
3-0 Zest... yeah i agree zest didnt play anything up to his caliber and still nearly won the last two games in that series. Taeja is good, but we havent seen him at competing in code s for a long time and its a lot more stacked these days with kespa players. As for hyun MC bomber and san i think they would be stuck in code A.
On August 04 2014 18:43 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Those guys are not Code S champions that is true. However they are at the top of the WCS rankings. They got there because they have proven to be ahead of the foreigners every time they face them. For most of them their skill level appears to be Code S level even if it is not Code S championship level.
That's who he took out and who others have not been able to take out before him. It's incredibly impressive. Nobody is claiming he won a Code S championship.
I think people are stuck on "Not in Code S = Bad" when in reality theres many people not in Code S that could easily be considered the best players in the world.
If your not competing at the top level in korea, you dont deserve to be labelled the best player in the world.
Or you just don't want to be in Korea for some reason...?
Yeah because you'll lose code-s.
You not neccesarily lose in Code S, just because you don't participate in it. Taeja is probably top 3 terran on the planet and does not participate in Code S. Let's be honest here, could Cure/TY/Reality 3-0 Zest? I find that highly unlikely. Ofc. Code S is still the strongest tournament in the world, but it is also suffering from the region split. I don't think, that people like Hush or Terminator could make it to Code S, if Taeja, Hyun, MC, Bomber, San and co would still be in korea.
3-0 Zest... yeah i agree zest didnt play anything up to his caliber and still nearly won the last two games in that series. Taeja is good, but we havent seen him at competing in code s for a long time and its a lot more stacked these days with kespa players. As for hyun MC bomber and san i think they would be stuck in code A.
Bomber and Taeja were in code S when they decided to leave for another region. Jjakji too.
On August 04 2014 18:43 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Those guys are not Code S champions that is true. However they are at the top of the WCS rankings. They got there because they have proven to be ahead of the foreigners every time they face them. For most of them their skill level appears to be Code S level even if it is not Code S championship level.
That's who he took out and who others have not been able to take out before him. It's incredibly impressive. Nobody is claiming he won a Code S championship.
I think people are stuck on "Not in Code S = Bad" when in reality theres many people not in Code S that could easily be considered the best players in the world.
If your not competing at the top level in korea, you dont deserve to be labelled the best player in the world.
Or you just don't want to be in Korea for some reason...?
Yeah because you'll lose code-s.
You not neccesarily lose in Code S, just because you don't participate in it. Taeja is probably top 3 terran on the planet and does not participate in Code S. Let's be honest here, could Cure/TY/Reality 3-0 Zest? I find that highly unlikely. Ofc. Code S is still the strongest tournament in the world, but it is also suffering from the region split. I don't think, that people like Hush or Terminator could make it to Code S, if Taeja, Hyun, MC, Bomber, San and co would still be in korea.
3-0 Zest... yeah i agree zest didnt play anything up to his caliber and still nearly won the last two games in that series. Taeja is good, but we havent seen him at competing in code s for a long time and its a lot more stacked these days with kespa players. As for hyun MC bomber and san i think they would be stuck in code A.
So just because you 'think' they would be stuck in code A, you are gonna dismiss the win of Bunny as an easy win? I can not even remember a foreign Terran winning a tournament like this, so i think a little nuance in your posts could provide you with some more credibility.
On August 04 2014 18:43 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Those guys are not Code S champions that is true. However they are at the top of the WCS rankings. They got there because they have proven to be ahead of the foreigners every time they face them. For most of them their skill level appears to be Code S level even if it is not Code S championship level.
That's who he took out and who others have not been able to take out before him. It's incredibly impressive. Nobody is claiming he won a Code S championship.
I think people are stuck on "Not in Code S = Bad" when in reality theres many people not in Code S that could easily be considered the best players in the world.
If your not competing at the top level in korea, you dont deserve to be labelled the best player in the world.
Or you just don't want to be in Korea for some reason...?
Yeah because you'll lose code-s.
You not neccesarily lose in Code S, just because you don't participate in it. Taeja is probably top 3 terran on the planet and does not participate in Code S. Let's be honest here, could Cure/TY/Reality 3-0 Zest? I find that highly unlikely. Ofc. Code S is still the strongest tournament in the world, but it is also suffering from the region split. I don't think, that people like Hush or Terminator could make it to Code S, if Taeja, Hyun, MC, Bomber, San and co would still be in korea.
3-0 Zest... yeah i agree zest didnt play anything up to his caliber and still nearly won the last two games in that series. Taeja is good, but we havent seen him at competing in code s for a long time and its a lot more stacked these days with kespa players. As for hyun MC bomber and san i think they would be stuck in code A.
That would probably depend on the group. The point still stands: Code regulars lose to often at international tournaments to be considered God-like. Stork lost to Scarlett and twice to Snute at HSC and IEM. If he can't beat them and win tournyes, while, Stardust, San, MC and co. can win them, that implies, that they are better than him. Noone here is implying, that foreign koreans (besides Taeja) are on a Soulkey/Maru/Zest/soO-level, but saying, that they are worse than Hush, Terminator, Shine and co. is equally ridiculos.
On August 04 2014 19:01 einherier wrote: Hes totally right, just take a look at ur own TLPD rankings and compare it to the wcs ranking, not even one of the 10 highest WCS players is in your Top 10. That WCS system is the problem, european and foreignkoreans get most WCS points despite having the easiest opponents just because they get the biggest support from their teams and organisations.
Bunny did great, he deserved the win and all, but was it worth 750 WCS points ? Clearly not. thats the amount u get for getting RO4 in Code S, which is with any love for Bunny and the whole TeamLiquid not even close to comparable.
Checking TLPD top10 after that post was really funny. Shows that its more effective to farm Pro League for points then to Farm foreign events for points. Except if you are TaeJa.
On August 04 2014 18:43 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Those guys are not Code S champions that is true. However they are at the top of the WCS rankings. They got there because they have proven to be ahead of the foreigners every time they face them. For most of them their skill level appears to be Code S level even if it is not Code S championship level.
That's who he took out and who others have not been able to take out before him. It's incredibly impressive. Nobody is claiming he won a Code S championship.
I think people are stuck on "Not in Code S = Bad" when in reality theres many people not in Code S that could easily be considered the best players in the world.
If your not competing at the top level in korea, you dont deserve to be labelled the best player in the world.
Or you just don't want to be in Korea for some reason...?
Yeah because you'll lose code-s.
You not neccesarily lose in Code S, just because you don't participate in it. Taeja is probably top 3 terran on the planet and does not participate in Code S. Let's be honest here, could Cure/TY/Reality 3-0 Zest? I find that highly unlikely. Ofc. Code S is still the strongest tournament in the world, but it is also suffering from the region split. I don't think, that people like Hush or Terminator could make it to Code S, if Taeja, Hyun, MC, Bomber, San and co would still be in korea.
3-0 Zest... yeah i agree zest didnt play anything up to his caliber and still nearly won the last two games in that series. Taeja is good, but we havent seen him at competing in code s for a long time and its a lot more stacked these days with kespa players. As for hyun MC bomber and san i think they would be stuck in code A.
Bomber and Taeja were in code S when they decided to leave for another region. Jjakji too.
The game is different with these new players in now..
On August 04 2014 18:43 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Those guys are not Code S champions that is true. However they are at the top of the WCS rankings. They got there because they have proven to be ahead of the foreigners every time they face them. For most of them their skill level appears to be Code S level even if it is not Code S championship level.
That's who he took out and who others have not been able to take out before him. It's incredibly impressive. Nobody is claiming he won a Code S championship.
I think people are stuck on "Not in Code S = Bad" when in reality theres many people not in Code S that could easily be considered the best players in the world.
If your not competing at the top level in korea, you dont deserve to be labelled the best player in the world.
Or you just don't want to be in Korea for some reason...?
Yeah because you'll lose code-s.
You not neccesarily lose in Code S, just because you don't participate in it. Taeja is probably top 3 terran on the planet and does not participate in Code S. Let's be honest here, could Cure/TY/Reality 3-0 Zest? I find that highly unlikely. Ofc. Code S is still the strongest tournament in the world, but it is also suffering from the region split. I don't think, that people like Hush or Terminator could make it to Code S, if Taeja, Hyun, MC, Bomber, San and co would still be in korea.
3-0 Zest... yeah i agree zest didnt play anything up to his caliber and still nearly won the last two games in that series. Taeja is good, but we havent seen him at competing in code s for a long time and its a lot more stacked these days with kespa players. As for hyun MC bomber and san i think they would be stuck in code A.
That would probably depend on the group. The point still stands: Code regulars lose to often at international tournaments to be considered God-like. Stork lost to Scarlett and twice to Snute at HSC and IEM. If he can't beat them and win tournyes, while, Stardust, San, MC and co. can win them, that implies, that they are better than him. Noone here is implying, that foreign koreans (besides Taeja) are on a Soulkey/Maru/Zest/soO-level, but saying, that they are worse than Hush, Terminator, Shine and co. is equally ridiculos.
I understand what you are saying and i dont think these top level korean players perform well in foreign tournaments because theyve only been to 1 or two of them. No korean not even taeja who wins almost all foreign tournaments one his first 2 when first coming out of korea. We will see how terminator and hush perform as i think they are better than most people think.Also i dont think stork is that great of a player, but is improving slowly.
On August 04 2014 18:43 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Those guys are not Code S champions that is true. However they are at the top of the WCS rankings. They got there because they have proven to be ahead of the foreigners every time they face them. For most of them their skill level appears to be Code S level even if it is not Code S championship level.
That's who he took out and who others have not been able to take out before him. It's incredibly impressive. Nobody is claiming he won a Code S championship.
I think people are stuck on "Not in Code S = Bad" when in reality theres many people not in Code S that could easily be considered the best players in the world.
If your not competing at the top level in korea, you dont deserve to be labelled the best player in the world.
Or you just don't want to be in Korea for some reason...?
Yeah because you'll lose code-s.
Or because culture, language, socialisation, homesickness etc.
Well we did have a couple of foreigners who were labelled the best at the time competing in gsl. This is when MC could all in everygame in korea and still win, What happened to them? Oh.
Both NaNiwa and HuK acquitted themselves very well in Code S...
Yes this was when MC could 4 gate every game and win.. Can you not read?
On August 04 2014 18:43 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Those guys are not Code S champions that is true. However they are at the top of the WCS rankings. They got there because they have proven to be ahead of the foreigners every time they face them. For most of them their skill level appears to be Code S level even if it is not Code S championship level.
That's who he took out and who others have not been able to take out before him. It's incredibly impressive. Nobody is claiming he won a Code S championship.
I think people are stuck on "Not in Code S = Bad" when in reality theres many people not in Code S that could easily be considered the best players in the world.
If your not competing at the top level in korea, you dont deserve to be labelled the best player in the world.
Or you just don't want to be in Korea for some reason...?
Yeah because you'll lose code-s.
You not neccesarily lose in Code S, just because you don't participate in it. Taeja is probably top 3 terran on the planet and does not participate in Code S. Let's be honest here, could Cure/TY/Reality 3-0 Zest? I find that highly unlikely. Ofc. Code S is still the strongest tournament in the world, but it is also suffering from the region split. I don't think, that people like Hush or Terminator could make it to Code S, if Taeja, Hyun, MC, Bomber, San and co would still be in korea.
3-0 Zest... yeah i agree zest didnt play anything up to his caliber and still nearly won the last two games in that series. Taeja is good, but we havent seen him at competing in code s for a long time and its a lot more stacked these days with kespa players. As for hyun MC bomber and san i think they would be stuck in code A.
Bomber and Taeja were in code S when they decided to leave for another region. Jjakji too.
The game is different with these new players in now..
New players? What new players since then? No those same people were playing but were in code A and the gap left by Taeja and ................ (this is where I remember the rule of not feeding trolls)
On August 04 2014 18:43 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Those guys are not Code S champions that is true. However they are at the top of the WCS rankings. They got there because they have proven to be ahead of the foreigners every time they face them. For most of them their skill level appears to be Code S level even if it is not Code S championship level.
That's who he took out and who others have not been able to take out before him. It's incredibly impressive. Nobody is claiming he won a Code S championship.
I think people are stuck on "Not in Code S = Bad" when in reality theres many people not in Code S that could easily be considered the best players in the world.
If your not competing at the top level in korea, you dont deserve to be labelled the best player in the world.
Or you just don't want to be in Korea for some reason...?
Yeah because you'll lose code-s.
Or because culture, language, socialisation, homesickness etc.
Well we did have a couple of foreigners who were labelled the best at the time competing in gsl. This is when MC could all in everygame in korea and still win, What happened to them? Oh.
Both NaNiwa and HuK acquitted themselves very well in Code S...
Yes this was when MC could 4 gate every game and win.. Can you not read?
"What happened to them? Oh."
You were implying that they didn't do well, which is why I gave the response that I gave. If that wasn't what you were implying then perhaps you shouldn't form your sentences in such an ambiguous manner, as opposed to blaming other people's reading comprehension for your own shortcomings re: the English language. Also, the idea that "MC could 4 Gate every game and win" is such a gross exaggeration that there's really no need for me to take your opinion seriously. So I won't :3
You go watch gsl then and watch it now... Instead of making some stupid sentences that avoid my point.
this thread has already become an insult to bunnys accomplishment and there's no fixing it now
it's not a matter of jealousy or your views on foreign/korean dynamics, it's just the same old story of bored misanthropes on the internet trying to cook up methods of smashing down what elates and encourages others. you see it in every thread about a B tier foreigner retiring or joining a new team. there is no right and wrong to it because there's no real debate. the one and only goal is to marginalize something people enjoy by answering questions about the relative value of accomplishments which no one asked
unless you're a team manager making a decision about whether to sign or renew a contract, the relative value of accomplishments in the scene shouldn't mean dick because we should all just be taking from the game whatever we like about it and celebrating it as friends
very sad but on that note gg to bunny, even as a hyun fan its wicked to see something like this
On August 04 2014 22:02 brickrd wrote: this thread has already become an insult to bunnys accomplishment and there's no fixing it now
it's not a matter of jealousy or your views on foreign/korean dynamics, it's just the same old story of bored misanthropes on the internet trying to cook up methods of smashing down what elates and encourages others. you see it in every thread about a B tier foreigner retiring or joining a new team. there is no right and wrong to it because there's no real debate. the one and only goal is to marginalize something people enjoy by answering questions about the relative value of accomplishments which no one asked
unless you're a team manager making a decision about whether to sign or renew a contract, the relative value of accomplishments in the scene shouldn't mean dick because we should all just be taking from the game whatever we like about it and celebrating it as friends
very sad but on that note gg to bunny, even as a hyun fan its wicked to see something like this
Yeah i bet bunny really cares when he gets his paycheck and prize money. Get a grip.
If your not competing at the top level in korea, you dont deserve to be labelled the best player in the world.
Or you just don't want to be in Korea for some reason...?
Yeah because you'll lose code-s.
Or because culture, language, socialisation, homesickness etc.
Well we did have a couple of foreigners who were labelled the best at the time competing in gsl. This is when MC could all in everygame in korea and still win, What happened to them? Oh.
Both NaNiwa and HuK acquitted themselves very well in Code S...
Yes this was when MC could 4 gate every game and win.. Can you not read?
"What happened to them? Oh."
You were implying that they didn't do well, which is why I gave the response that I gave. If that wasn't what you were implying then perhaps you shouldn't form your sentences in such an ambiguous manner, as opposed to blaming other people's reading comprehension for your own shortcomings re: the English language. Also, the idea that "MC could 4 Gate every game and win" is such a gross exaggeration that there's really no need for me to take your opinion seriously. So I won't :3
You go watch gsl then and watch it now... Instead of making some stupid sentences that avoid my point.
Were you or were you not implying that NaNiwa and HuK didn't do well when they were playing in GSL?
I dont think Huk did well especially as early as he competed in it. Naniwa probably did the best of the foreingers besides jinro.
On August 04 2014 21:06 nimdil wrote: [quote] Or you just don't want to be in Korea for some reason...?
Yeah because you'll lose code-s.
Or because culture, language, socialisation, homesickness etc.
Well we did have a couple of foreigners who were labelled the best at the time competing in gsl. This is when MC could all in everygame in korea and still win, What happened to them? Oh.
Both NaNiwa and HuK acquitted themselves very well in Code S...
Yes this was when MC could 4 gate every game and win.. Can you not read?
"What happened to them? Oh."
You were implying that they didn't do well, which is why I gave the response that I gave. If that wasn't what you were implying then perhaps you shouldn't form your sentences in such an ambiguous manner, as opposed to blaming other people's reading comprehension for your own shortcomings re: the English language. Also, the idea that "MC could 4 Gate every game and win" is such a gross exaggeration that there's really no need for me to take your opinion seriously. So I won't :3
You go watch gsl then and watch it now... Instead of making some stupid sentences that avoid my point.
Were you or were you not implying that NaNiwa and HuK didn't do well when they were playing in GSL?
I dont think Huk did well especially as early as he competed in it. Naniwa probably did the best of the foreingers besides jinro.
I'm not sure what do you mean by doing well, because I have a feeling, that anything below Code S semifinal is "unwell".
On August 04 2014 21:09 Nuka wrote: [quote] Yeah because you'll lose code-s.
Or because culture, language, socialisation, homesickness etc.
Well we did have a couple of foreigners who were labelled the best at the time competing in gsl. This is when MC could all in everygame in korea and still win, What happened to them? Oh.
Both NaNiwa and HuK acquitted themselves very well in Code S...
Yes this was when MC could 4 gate every game and win.. Can you not read?
"What happened to them? Oh."
You were implying that they didn't do well, which is why I gave the response that I gave. If that wasn't what you were implying then perhaps you shouldn't form your sentences in such an ambiguous manner, as opposed to blaming other people's reading comprehension for your own shortcomings re: the English language. Also, the idea that "MC could 4 Gate every game and win" is such a gross exaggeration that there's really no need for me to take your opinion seriously. So I won't :3
You go watch gsl then and watch it now... Instead of making some stupid sentences that avoid my point.
Were you or were you not implying that NaNiwa and HuK didn't do well when they were playing in GSL?
I dont think Huk did well especially as early as he competed in it. Naniwa probably did the best of the foreingers besides jinro.
I'm not sure what do you mean by doing well, because I have a feeling, that anything below Code S semifinal is "unwell".
Yes that was good for that time period. Now that means absolutely nothing.
Yeah thats the problem, fans wanna see such foreigner wins against top korean stuff, but this is not whats happening. we see a foreigner win against a midtier korean leading in a corrupted ranking (wcs). gfinity and blizzard are they ones to blame for this, gfinity clearly was aganist the WCS rules.
Wanna see a foreigner win against a top korean? IEM Shezen Snute vs Stork and Snute vs True. Snute won vs a Code S Player in Macrogames, he won vs True a Code s Semifinalist. You can say on a good day is Snute Code s level.
MLG Anaheim Scarlett won vs Life, Ragnarok and DRG.(Okay Life and Ragnarok are just Code A ;D )
So in the end we see foreigner win vs top korean, and i think you can say that the best foreigners can win vs top Koreans and i think you can say bunny is on his good day on of them.
Yeah thats the problem, fans wanna see such foreigner wins against top korean stuff, but this is not whats happening. we see a foreigner win against a midtier korean leading in a corrupted ranking (wcs). gfinity and blizzard are they ones to blame for this, gfinity clearly was aganist the WCS rules.
Wanna see a foreigner win against a top korean? IEM Shezen Snute vs Stork and Snute vs True. Snute won vs a Code S Player in Macrogames, he won vs True a Code s Semifinalist. You can say on a good day is Snute Code s level.
MLG Anaheim Scarlett won vs Life, Ragnarok and DRG.(Okay Life and Ragnarok are just Code A ;D )
So in the end we see foreigner win vs top korean, and i think you can say that the best foreigners can win vs top Koreans and i think you can say bunny is on his good day on of them.
I would love to see some foreigners go into code s again but its just not going to happen. Either because the players dont want to go or the team would decide its not a smart choice.
On August 04 2014 22:56 Nuka wrote: I would love to see some foreigners go into code s again but its just not going to happen. Either because the players dont want to go or the team would decide its not a smart choice.
Only two reasons? - longrun tournaments (many players dislike it!) - trail off your independence - often decline other tournaments - big stress & confusing about preparation if you want to play weekends and longrun tournaments. ...
Yeah thats the problem, fans wanna see such foreigner wins against top korean stuff, but this is not whats happening. we see a foreigner win against a midtier korean leading in a corrupted ranking (wcs). gfinity and blizzard are they ones to blame for this, gfinity clearly was aganist the WCS rules.
Wanna see a foreigner win against a top korean? IEM Shezen Snute vs Stork and Snute vs True. Snute won vs a Code S Player in Macrogames, he won vs True a Code s Semifinalist. You can say on a good day is Snute Code s level.
MLG Anaheim Scarlett won vs Life, Ragnarok and DRG.(Okay Life and Ragnarok are just Code A ;D )
So in the end we see foreigner win vs top korean, and i think you can say that the best foreigners can win vs top Koreans and i think you can say bunny is on his good day on of them.
I would love to see some foreigners go into code s again but its just not going to happen. Either because the players dont want to go or the team would decide its not a smart choice.
Why would you go to Korea - for the most part it doesn't make much sense.
The thor targeting change made such a big difference in a couple of those final games. Goes to show that in reality, foreign terrans aren't any worse than their toss/zerg counterparts. Its just that the game was more difficult for terrans in a variety of ways that the recent patch has helped fix a bit whether it was the correct way of doing so or not.
On August 04 2014 23:33 johnbongham wrote: The thor targeting change made such a big difference in a couple of those final games. Goes to show that in reality, foreign terrans aren't any worse than their toss/zerg counterparts. Its just that the game was more difficult for terrans in a variety of ways that the recent patch has helped fix a bit whether it was the correct way of doing so or not.
I am still sad they made the Thor even more abusable, but in a-move scenarios if air and ground are around they do really better. Also Medivac kiting with Thors against air is now super easy.
Yeah thats the problem, fans wanna see such foreigner wins against top korean stuff, but this is not whats happening. we see a foreigner win against a midtier korean leading in a corrupted ranking (wcs). gfinity and blizzard are they ones to blame for this, gfinity clearly was aganist the WCS rules.
Wanna see a foreigner win against a top korean? IEM Shezen Snute vs Stork and Snute vs True. Snute won vs a Code S Player in Macrogames, he won vs True a Code s Semifinalist. You can say on a good day is Snute Code s level.
MLG Anaheim Scarlett won vs Life, Ragnarok and DRG.(Okay Life and Ragnarok are just Code A ;D )
So in the end we see foreigner win vs top korean, and i think you can say that the best foreigners can win vs top Koreans and i think you can say bunny is on his good day on of them.
I would love to see some foreigners go into code s again but its just not going to happen. Either because the players dont want to go or the team would decide its not a smart choice.
Why would you go to Korea - for the most part it doesn't make much sense.
Strictly speaking the situation is still Korea = improvement (provided you can get over the social problems that always arise)
Yeah thats the problem, fans wanna see such foreigner wins against top korean stuff, but this is not whats happening. we see a foreigner win against a midtier korean leading in a corrupted ranking (wcs). gfinity and blizzard are they ones to blame for this, gfinity clearly was aganist the WCS rules.
Wanna see a foreigner win against a top korean? IEM Shezen Snute vs Stork and Snute vs True. Snute won vs a Code S Player in Macrogames, he won vs True a Code s Semifinalist. You can say on a good day is Snute Code s level.
MLG Anaheim Scarlett won vs Life, Ragnarok and DRG.(Okay Life and Ragnarok are just Code A ;D )
So in the end we see foreigner win vs top korean, and i think you can say that the best foreigners can win vs top Koreans and i think you can say bunny is on his good day on of them.
I would love to see some foreigners go into code s again but its just not going to happen. Either because the players dont want to go or the team would decide its not a smart choice.
Why would you go to Korea - for the most part it doesn't make much sense.
Strictly speaking the situation is still Korea = improvement (provided you can get over the social problems that always arise)
I think we are moving away from that, especially when there are way more chances at big money when you have monthly major tournaments throughout the US and Eruope, there's a lot of incentive to get out of Korea. Theres even been a rise in personal sponsorships, like Bomber and Polt, since many western companies don't want to pay for a whole team.
On August 04 2014 18:39 sunship wrote: I understand that people see "foreigner beat korean in a finals" and want to be blinded by this concept of "hype" (one of the worst buzzwords to exist in this era IMO) but I feel like this should be said:
For a while, overseas events in particular have had basically the same handful of low-mid tier Koreans (compared to Code S competitors) attending them to face off against foreigners who are admittedly better than average. I feel that this is more than likely in an attempt to set this kind of scenario up, because it's obvious how much attention events receive and how easy it is to "hype" up the chance of something like this happening. However, if you step back and compare the kind of Korean they're facing, it's really not that impressive, and it's almost expected at this point for these Koreans to lose, because they're not the same quality of Korean that competes in Korea.
To me, it seems like these Koreans in particular (coincidentally, MC HyuN jjakji MMA StarDust are perhaps the five that attend the most of these events out of any set of Koreans) keep being invited because not only are foreign fans more capable of recognizing them compared to other Koreans (because they keep getting invited) but also because to a foreigner, they're the most beatable Koreans nowadays, and when all the vast majority of foreign fans are capable of seeing is "a foreigner beat a Korean", the quality of Korean that the foreigner is beating is irrelevant.
I don't mean to rain on a parade here, but it's been obvious for a while, to me at least, what tournaments have been trying to do in this regard when it comes to the whole foreigner taking on the Korean menace bias. I'm probably going to be lambasted because people still think of most of those players listed as if they're still in their 2012 form, which would make a foreigner beating them special, but it's almost 2015, and nearly every single Korean that is actively invited and/or attends foreign events would more than likely struggle to qualify for Code A - just like foreigners.
haters gonna hate.
Gj bunny and teamliquid, awesome job u guys are doing
On August 04 2014 22:05 finkelboy wrote: Usually the photographers tell players to do the kiss the trophy thing, personally I'd rather hold it in in my hand or raise it in the air.
On August 05 2014 02:14 klipik12 wrote: As with everything in starcraft nowadays, or so it seems, a number of people have found a way to take a positive thing and make it depressing.
./sigh
The difference is, this isn't actually "people", this is just three posters who I haven't seen post here before. It may be true that we breed those kinds of posts with some of the usual stupid reactions, but the community reacted well this time, let's not associate.
rofl, can't believe it.. If I had to bet on some foreigner Terran that would win a championship - it would probably have been Dayshi instead.. Very good nevertheless, gratz Bunny, happy..
Oh wait nope - I missed the whole thing someway, any VoDs ? (lol)
Congrats to Bunny, really impressed with his mechanics this tournament. I hope to see him put up great runs in the future.
The write up however... is a bit too foreigner vs Korean vive. This G3 isn't the winds of "RTS" changing or "it could be one of the turning points of the year". It was a great player, on a great team, playing great sc2. Or a foreigner beating a handful of (don't even act like they are the best Koreans) Koreans in a weekend tournament with a foreigner friendly format. Lets not turn a great achievement into, "haha we beat you guys once that one time so we are right and you are wrong".
On August 05 2014 03:37 yido wrote: Congrats to Bunny, really impressed with his mechanics this tournament. I hope to see him put up great runs in the future.
The write up however... is a bit too foreigner vs Korean vive. This G3 isn't the winds of "RTS" changing or "it could be one of the turning points of the year". It was a great player, on a great team, playing great sc2. Or a foreigner beating a handful of (don't even act like they are the best Koreans) Koreans in a weekend tournament with a foreigner friendly format. Lets not turn a great achievement into, "haha we beat you guys once that one time so we are right and you are wrong".
The only thing I can think of it wasn't a WCS or a WCS Premiere event.. But holy sh*t man, beating all those guys in a row is really an achievement.. The tourney itself turned out to be a Jackpot in the end.. :D
On August 05 2014 03:37 yido wrote: Congrats to Bunny, really impressed with his mechanics this tournament. I hope to see him put up great runs in the future.
The write up however... is a bit too foreigner vs Korean vive. This G3 isn't the winds of "RTS" changing or "it could be one of the turning points of the year". It was a great player, on a great team, playing great sc2. Or a foreigner beating a handful of (don't even act like they are the best Koreans) Koreans in a weekend tournament with a foreigner friendly format. Lets not turn a great achievement into, "haha we beat you guys once that one time so we are right and you are wrong".
The only thing I can think of it wasn't a WCS or a WCS Premiere event.. But holy sh*t man, beating all those guys in a row is really an achievement.. The tourney itself turned out to be a Jackpot in the end.. :D
Yea, it was an excellent event. I didn't know about G3 until I tuned on to the olimoley league Sat morning. The production was good, casting was solid, and games were excellent. I really hope that they can grow eSports in the UK into a great hub of activity.
Though many supposed fans of the game consider these tug-of-wars to be laborious and plodding, in the right hands, these compositions can result in compelling games.
Not sure why you felt the need to take a shot at people who dislike Swarm Hosts by implying that they're not truly fans of the game...
On August 04 2014 18:39 sunship wrote: I understand that people see "foreigner beat korean in a finals" and want to be blinded by this concept of "hype" (one of the worst buzzwords to exist in this era IMO) but I feel like this should be said:
For a while, overseas events in particular have had basically the same handful of low-mid tier Koreans (compared to Code S competitors) attending them to face off against foreigners who are admittedly better than average. I feel that this is more than likely in an attempt to set this kind of scenario up, because it's obvious how much attention events receive and how easy it is to "hype" up the chance of something like this happening. However, if you step back and compare the kind of Korean they're facing, it's really not that impressive, and it's almost expected at this point for these Koreans to lose, because they're not the same quality of Korean that competes in Korea.
To me, it seems like these Koreans in particular (coincidentally, MC HyuN jjakji MMA StarDust are perhaps the five that attend the most of these events out of any set of Koreans) keep being invited because not only are foreign fans more capable of recognizing them compared to other Koreans (because they keep getting invited) but also because to a foreigner, they're the most beatable Koreans nowadays, and when all the vast majority of foreign fans are capable of seeing is "a foreigner beat a Korean", the quality of Korean that the foreigner is beating is irrelevant.
I don't mean to rain on a parade here, but it's been obvious for a while, to me at least, what tournaments have been trying to do in this regard when it comes to the whole foreigner taking on the Korean menace bias. I'm probably going to be lambasted because people still think of most of those players listed as if they're still in their 2012 form, which would make a foreigner beating them special, but it's almost 2015, and nearly every single Korean that is actively invited and/or attends foreign events would more than likely struggle to qualify for Code A - just like foreigners.
yes it is absolutely disgusting that you would try to diminish this accomplishment. in a time when koreans are stomping foreigners left and right, and basically singlehandedly destroying the sc2 competitive scene, to actively try to downplay a FOREIGNER WHO BEAT KOREANS BY PLAYING TERRAN, a race that requires really good mechanics, is mind boggling. this is a legit accomplishment.
On August 04 2014 18:39 sunship wrote: I understand that people see "foreigner beat korean in a finals" and want to be blinded by this concept of "hype" (one of the worst buzzwords to exist in this era IMO) but I feel like this should be said:
For a while, overseas events in particular have had basically the same handful of low-mid tier Koreans (compared to Code S competitors) attending them to face off against foreigners who are admittedly better than average. I feel that this is more than likely in an attempt to set this kind of scenario up, because it's obvious how much attention events receive and how easy it is to "hype" up the chance of something like this happening. However, if you step back and compare the kind of Korean they're facing, it's really not that impressive, and it's almost expected at this point for these Koreans to lose, because they're not the same quality of Korean that competes in Korea.
To me, it seems like these Koreans in particular (coincidentally, MC HyuN jjakji MMA StarDust are perhaps the five that attend the most of these events out of any set of Koreans) keep being invited because not only are foreign fans more capable of recognizing them compared to other Koreans (because they keep getting invited) but also because to a foreigner, they're the most beatable Koreans nowadays, and when all the vast majority of foreign fans are capable of seeing is "a foreigner beat a Korean", the quality of Korean that the foreigner is beating is irrelevant.
I don't mean to rain on a parade here, but it's been obvious for a while, to me at least, what tournaments have been trying to do in this regard when it comes to the whole foreigner taking on the Korean menace bias. I'm probably going to be lambasted because people still think of most of those players listed as if they're still in their 2012 form, which would make a foreigner beating them special, but it's almost 2015, and nearly every single Korean that is actively invited and/or attends foreign events would more than likely struggle to qualify for Code A - just like foreigners.
yes it is absolutely disgusting that you would try to diminish this accomplishment. in a time when koreans are stomping foreigners left and right, and basically singlehandedly destroying the sc2 competitive scene, to actively try to downplay a FOREIGNER WHO BEAT KOREANS BY PLAYING TERRAN, a race that requires really good mechanics, is mind boggling. this is a legit accomplishment.
See this annoys me. Why is it that in a post where you're outraged about someone downplaying accomplishments, you have to add something about how it's more impressive because he played terran, thus downplaying other accomplishments?
Grats to Bunny! Guess he's easily the best foreign Terran in the world right now after winning this tourney and defeating Sacsri in Dreamhack. We've known he's good for a while and he finally blossomed :D
Also cool to see Demu get some decent results. I really want to watch his games over StarDust.
On August 04 2014 19:01 einherier wrote: That WCS system is the problem, european and foreignkoreans get most WCS points despite having the easiest opponents just because they get the biggest support from their teams and organisations.
Surely at some point the Koreans themselves need to step up and improve their scene. We already have Koreans winning WCS EU and US, should they also be receiving extra WCS pity points now?
All the tournaments are in Europe and the US, because that is where the vast majority of fans and money are, so either more Korean players need to travel to these events, or there needs to be more Korean events.
I watched Broodwar, and i know why Korea has a special place, in the heart of a lot of Starcraft fans i just don't think the scene is helped by them constantly getting special treatment.
Seriously. It's hardly the rest of the worlds fault that the Koreans don't organize WCS events in their own scene.
GG to Bunny ! I really appreciated this final, and the high quality of the games... It's just a beginning ! This victory will be a big help to shut this nervousness !
On August 04 2014 18:39 sunship wrote: I understand that people see "foreigner beat korean in a finals" and want to be blinded by this concept of "hype" (one of the worst buzzwords to exist in this era IMO) but I feel like this should be said:
For a while, overseas events in particular have had basically the same handful of low-mid tier Koreans (compared to Code S competitors) attending them to face off against foreigners who are admittedly better than average. I feel that this is more than likely in an attempt to set this kind of scenario up, because it's obvious how much attention events receive and how easy it is to "hype" up the chance of something like this happening. However, if you step back and compare the kind of Korean they're facing, it's really not that impressive, and it's almost expected at this point for these Koreans to lose, because they're not the same quality of Korean that competes in Korea.
To me, it seems like these Koreans in particular (coincidentally, MC HyuN jjakji MMA StarDust are perhaps the five that attend the most of these events out of any set of Koreans) keep being invited because not only are foreign fans more capable of recognizing them compared to other Koreans (because they keep getting invited) but also because to a foreigner, they're the most beatable Koreans nowadays, and when all the vast majority of foreign fans are capable of seeing is "a foreigner beat a Korean", the quality of Korean that the foreigner is beating is irrelevant.
I don't mean to rain on a parade here, but it's been obvious for a while, to me at least, what tournaments have been trying to do in this regard when it comes to the whole foreigner taking on the Korean menace bias. I'm probably going to be lambasted because people still think of most of those players listed as if they're still in their 2012 form, which would make a foreigner beating them special, but it's almost 2015, and nearly every single Korean that is actively invited and/or attends foreign events would more than likely struggle to qualify for Code A - just like foreigners.
haters gonna hate.
Gj bunny and teamliquid, awesome job u guys are doing
Bunny deserves the plaudits he's received, but sunship's analysis is also accurate (at least in regards to the skill of Koreans attending; unlike him, I don't think there is any kind of pro-foreigner tournament conspiracy).
For example, if Bunny played proleague, and he had a 40% win ratio, I would consider that a much greater accomplishment than him winning this tournament.
On August 04 2014 18:39 sunship wrote: I understand that people see "foreigner beat korean in a finals" and want to be blinded by this concept of "hype" (one of the worst buzzwords to exist in this era IMO) but I feel like this should be said:
For a while, overseas events in particular have had basically the same handful of low-mid tier Koreans (compared to Code S competitors) attending them to face off against foreigners who are admittedly better than average. I feel that this is more than likely in an attempt to set this kind of scenario up, because it's obvious how much attention events receive and how easy it is to "hype" up the chance of something like this happening. However, if you step back and compare the kind of Korean they're facing, it's really not that impressive, and it's almost expected at this point for these Koreans to lose, because they're not the same quality of Korean that competes in Korea.
To me, it seems like these Koreans in particular (coincidentally, MC HyuN jjakji MMA StarDust are perhaps the five that attend the most of these events out of any set of Koreans) keep being invited because not only are foreign fans more capable of recognizing them compared to other Koreans (because they keep getting invited) but also because to a foreigner, they're the most beatable Koreans nowadays, and when all the vast majority of foreign fans are capable of seeing is "a foreigner beat a Korean", the quality of Korean that the foreigner is beating is irrelevant.
I don't mean to rain on a parade here, but it's been obvious for a while, to me at least, what tournaments have been trying to do in this regard when it comes to the whole foreigner taking on the Korean menace bias. I'm probably going to be lambasted because people still think of most of those players listed as if they're still in their 2012 form, which would make a foreigner beating them special, but it's almost 2015, and nearly every single Korean that is actively invited and/or attends foreign events would more than likely struggle to qualify for Code A - just like foreigners.
Have you been paying any attention to Starcraft 2 lately? Your post is meaningless at the least.
On August 05 2014 02:01 goody153 wrote: "foreigner"
"terran"
"win"
wait this doesn't sound right .. those 3 words doesn't usually end well together
omg it's real..
That's what makes it so amazing for me. He basically did the impossible . The only foreign to win in a finals vs a strong Korean since Thorzain beat Polt.
On August 04 2014 18:39 sunship wrote: I understand that people see "foreigner beat korean in a finals" and want to be blinded by this concept of "hype" (one of the worst buzzwords to exist in this era IMO) but I feel like this should be said:
For a while, overseas events in particular have had basically the same handful of low-mid tier Koreans (compared to Code S competitors) attending them to face off against foreigners who are admittedly better than average. I feel that this is more than likely in an attempt to set this kind of scenario up, because it's obvious how much attention events receive and how easy it is to "hype" up the chance of something like this happening. However, if you step back and compare the kind of Korean they're facing, it's really not that impressive, and it's almost expected at this point for these Koreans to lose, because they're not the same quality of Korean that competes in Korea.
To me, it seems like these Koreans in particular (coincidentally, MC HyuN jjakji MMA StarDust are perhaps the five that attend the most of these events out of any set of Koreans) keep being invited because not only are foreign fans more capable of recognizing them compared to other Koreans (because they keep getting invited) but also because to a foreigner, they're the most beatable Koreans nowadays, and when all the vast majority of foreign fans are capable of seeing is "a foreigner beat a Korean", the quality of Korean that the foreigner is beating is irrelevant.
I don't mean to rain on a parade here, but it's been obvious for a while, to me at least, what tournaments have been trying to do in this regard when it comes to the whole foreigner taking on the Korean menace bias. I'm probably going to be lambasted because people still think of most of those players listed as if they're still in their 2012 form, which would make a foreigner beating them special, but it's almost 2015, and nearly every single Korean that is actively invited and/or attends foreign events would more than likely struggle to qualify for Code A - just like foreigners.
You're going to get "lambasted" because you're on an alternate account making these claims. I've seen "CODE S" Koreans get destroyed by the players you listed as "beatable" Koreans. So, what does that mean exactly?
On August 04 2014 18:39 sunship wrote: I understand that people see "foreigner beat korean in a finals" and want to be blinded by this concept of "hype" (one of the worst buzzwords to exist in this era IMO) but I feel like this should be said:
For a while, overseas events in particular have had basically the same handful of low-mid tier Koreans (compared to Code S competitors) attending them to face off against foreigners who are admittedly better than average. I feel that this is more than likely in an attempt to set this kind of scenario up, because it's obvious how much attention events receive and how easy it is to "hype" up the chance of something like this happening. However, if you step back and compare the kind of Korean they're facing, it's really not that impressive, and it's almost expected at this point for these Koreans to lose, because they're not the same quality of Korean that competes in Korea.
To me, it seems like these Koreans in particular (coincidentally, MC HyuN jjakji MMA StarDust are perhaps the five that attend the most of these events out of any set of Koreans) keep being invited because not only are foreign fans more capable of recognizing them compared to other Koreans (because they keep getting invited) but also because to a foreigner, they're the most beatable Koreans nowadays, and when all the vast majority of foreign fans are capable of seeing is "a foreigner beat a Korean", the quality of Korean that the foreigner is beating is irrelevant.
I don't mean to rain on a parade here, but it's been obvious for a while, to me at least, what tournaments have been trying to do in this regard when it comes to the whole foreigner taking on the Korean menace bias. I'm probably going to be lambasted because people still think of most of those players listed as if they're still in their 2012 form, which would make a foreigner beating them special, but it's almost 2015, and nearly every single Korean that is actively invited and/or attends foreign events would more than likely struggle to qualify for Code A - just like foreigners.
haters gonna hate.
Gj bunny and teamliquid, awesome job u guys are doing
Bunny deserves the plaudits he's received, but sunship's analysis is also accurate (at least in regards to the skill of Koreans attending; unlike him, I don't think there is any kind of pro-foreigner tournament conspiracy).
For example, if Bunny played proleague, and he had a 40% win ratio, I would consider that a much greater accomplishment than him winning this tournament.
Based on your perception, that means Stephano and Naniwa were the best of all time. Since Nani routinely had a min 40% win rate in his time in Korea and Naniwa made long runs in Code S. And yet, both these guys would lose to MC/Hyun/MMA in tournaments during the same time period. Heck, Snute is probably the best foreigner because he had a huge win rate in Korea. So, why are those results not translating in tournaments? Oh, because the talent pool is similar. So, you're evaluation of "facts" and "opinions" on Code S players isn't truly existent.
On August 04 2014 18:39 sunship wrote: I understand that people see "foreigner beat korean in a finals" and want to be blinded by this concept of "hype" (one of the worst buzzwords to exist in this era IMO) but I feel like this should be said:
For a while, overseas events in particular have had basically the same handful of low-mid tier Koreans (compared to Code S competitors) attending them to face off against foreigners who are admittedly better than average. I feel that this is more than likely in an attempt to set this kind of scenario up, because it's obvious how much attention events receive and how easy it is to "hype" up the chance of something like this happening. However, if you step back and compare the kind of Korean they're facing, it's really not that impressive, and it's almost expected at this point for these Koreans to lose, because they're not the same quality of Korean that competes in Korea.
To me, it seems like these Koreans in particular (coincidentally, MC HyuN jjakji MMA StarDust are perhaps the five that attend the most of these events out of any set of Koreans) keep being invited because not only are foreign fans more capable of recognizing them compared to other Koreans (because they keep getting invited) but also because to a foreigner, they're the most beatable Koreans nowadays, and when all the vast majority of foreign fans are capable of seeing is "a foreigner beat a Korean", the quality of Korean that the foreigner is beating is irrelevant.
I don't mean to rain on a parade here, but it's been obvious for a while, to me at least, what tournaments have been trying to do in this regard when it comes to the whole foreigner taking on the Korean menace bias. I'm probably going to be lambasted because people still think of most of those players listed as if they're still in their 2012 form, which would make a foreigner beating them special, but it's almost 2015, and nearly every single Korean that is actively invited and/or attends foreign events would more than likely struggle to qualify for Code A - just like foreigners.
haters gonna hate.
Gj bunny and teamliquid, awesome job u guys are doing
Bunny deserves the plaudits he's received, but sunship's analysis is also accurate (at least in regards to the skill of Koreans attending; unlike him, I don't think there is any kind of pro-foreigner tournament conspiracy).
For example, if Bunny played proleague, and he had a 40% win ratio, I would consider that a much greater accomplishment than him winning this tournament.
Based on your perception, that means Stephano and Naniwa were the best of all time. Since Nani routinely had a min 40% win rate in his time in Korea and Naniwa made long runs in Code S. And yet, both these guys would lose to MC/Hyun/MMA in tournaments during the same time period. Heck, Snute is probably the best foreigner because he had a huge win rate in Korea. So, why are those results not translating in tournaments? Oh, because the talent pool is similar. So, you're evaluation of "facts" and "opinions" on Code S players isn't truly existent.
I don't think anyone would dispute that Naniwa & Stephano have accomplished much more than Bunny.
But let's be clear. Stephano & Naniwa competed against MC, Hyun, & MMA when they were better players. At one point, they were some of the finest players in the world. Now they aren't. I think I could beat the 80 year old Bill Russell in a basketball game today. If I do, I'll look forward to catabowl declaring me the greatest winner in NBA history.
What's more, you have to look at the players Bunny actually played in this tournament. If I'm correct, he only played Stardust & Hyun. And while normally I'm not one denigrate someone who beats the people who are put in front of him, you have to remember this was a small scale invite tournament. So in this case, doing so is very justified.
Finally, I'm not sure what you're talking about when you're referring to 'win rates in Korea.' I'm referring to a very specific win rate.
Again, Bunny deserves to be celebrated. But if he won 4/10 proleague matches, I'd be much, much more impressed.
When the guy said that about terran not winning since 2012, that suddenly just hit me.
I started playing in april 2012 (one month before finals, lol), but I can't remember seeing any foreign terran win any tournament. Maybe Lucifron once in a Dreamhack, but that's about it...
I never realized how few terrans there are that win tournaments and aren't named Taeja...
On August 04 2014 18:39 sunship wrote: I understand that people see "foreigner beat korean in a finals" and want to be blinded by this concept of "hype" (one of the worst buzzwords to exist in this era IMO) but I feel like this should be said:
For a while, overseas events in particular have had basically the same handful of low-mid tier Koreans (compared to Code S competitors) attending them to face off against foreigners who are admittedly better than average. I feel that this is more than likely in an attempt to set this kind of scenario up, because it's obvious how much attention events receive and how easy it is to "hype" up the chance of something like this happening. However, if you step back and compare the kind of Korean they're facing, it's really not that impressive, and it's almost expected at this point for these Koreans to lose, because they're not the same quality of Korean that competes in Korea.
To me, it seems like these Koreans in particular (coincidentally, MC HyuN jjakji MMA StarDust are perhaps the five that attend the most of these events out of any set of Koreans) keep being invited because not only are foreign fans more capable of recognizing them compared to other Koreans (because they keep getting invited) but also because to a foreigner, they're the most beatable Koreans nowadays, and when all the vast majority of foreign fans are capable of seeing is "a foreigner beat a Korean", the quality of Korean that the foreigner is beating is irrelevant.
I don't mean to rain on a parade here, but it's been obvious for a while, to me at least, what tournaments have been trying to do in this regard when it comes to the whole foreigner taking on the Korean menace bias. I'm probably going to be lambasted because people still think of most of those players listed as if they're still in their 2012 form, which would make a foreigner beating them special, but it's almost 2015, and nearly every single Korean that is actively invited and/or attends foreign events would more than likely struggle to qualify for Code A - just like foreigners.
I think we can pretty much all agree this post was pretty ridiculous. And pretty ignorant as well. No need derailing the whole thread to reply to this dude.
But I'm happy for Bunny, he did well to win! Nobody at that event was essentially a "push-over" and didn't have to go through some watered down bracket to get to the finals either. Well played!
On August 04 2014 18:39 sunship wrote: I understand that people see "foreigner beat korean in a finals" and want to be blinded by this concept of "hype" (one of the worst buzzwords to exist in this era IMO) but I feel like this should be said:
For a while, overseas events in particular have had basically the same handful of low-mid tier Koreans (compared to Code S competitors) attending them to face off against foreigners who are admittedly better than average. I feel that this is more than likely in an attempt to set this kind of scenario up, because it's obvious how much attention events receive and how easy it is to "hype" up the chance of something like this happening. However, if you step back and compare the kind of Korean they're facing, it's really not that impressive, and it's almost expected at this point for these Koreans to lose, because they're not the same quality of Korean that competes in Korea.
To me, it seems like these Koreans in particular (coincidentally, MC HyuN jjakji MMA StarDust are perhaps the five that attend the most of these events out of any set of Koreans) keep being invited because not only are foreign fans more capable of recognizing them compared to other Koreans (because they keep getting invited) but also because to a foreigner, they're the most beatable Koreans nowadays, and when all the vast majority of foreign fans are capable of seeing is "a foreigner beat a Korean", the quality of Korean that the foreigner is beating is irrelevant.
I don't mean to rain on a parade here, but it's been obvious for a while, to me at least, what tournaments have been trying to do in this regard when it comes to the whole foreigner taking on the Korean menace bias. I'm probably going to be lambasted because people still think of most of those players listed as if they're still in their 2012 form, which would make a foreigner beating them special, but it's almost 2015, and nearly every single Korean that is actively invited and/or attends foreign events would more than likely struggle to qualify for Code A - just like foreigners.
haters gonna hate.
Gj bunny and teamliquid, awesome job u guys are doing
Bunny deserves the plaudits he's received, but sunship's analysis is also accurate (at least in regards to the skill of Koreans attending; unlike him, I don't think there is any kind of pro-foreigner tournament conspiracy).
For example, if Bunny played proleague, and he had a 40% win ratio, I would consider that a much greater accomplishment than him winning this tournament.
Based on your perception, that means Stephano and Naniwa were the best of all time. Since Nani routinely had a min 40% win rate in his time in Korea and Naniwa made long runs in Code S. And yet, both these guys would lose to MC/Hyun/MMA in tournaments during the same time period. Heck, Snute is probably the best foreigner because he had a huge win rate in Korea. So, why are those results not translating in tournaments? Oh, because the talent pool is similar. So, you're evaluation of "facts" and "opinions" on Code S players isn't truly existent.
I don't think anyone would dispute that Naniwa & Stephano have accomplished much more than Bunny.
But let's be clear. Stephano & Naniwa competed against MC, Hyun, & MMA when they were better players. At one point, they were some of the finest players in the world. Now they aren't. I think I could beat the 80 year old Bill Russell in a basketball game today. If I do, I'll look forward to catabowl declaring me the greatest winner in NBA history.
What's more, you have to look at the players Bunny actually played in this tournament. If I'm correct, he only played Stardust & Hyun. And while normally I'm not one denigrate someone who beats the people who are put in front of him, you have to remember this was a small scale invite tournament. So in this case, doing so is very justified.
Finally, I'm not sure what you're talking about when you're referring to 'win rates in Korea.' I'm referring to a very specific win rate.
Again, Bunny deserves to be celebrated. But if he won 4/10 proleague matches, I'd be much, much more impressed.
I totally laughed when I saw that bit about MC and Hyun not being some of the finest players in the world. Both are world class players that are scary for ANY player in the world to have to face imo.
On August 04 2014 18:39 sunship wrote: I understand that people see "foreigner beat korean in a finals" and want to be blinded by this concept of "hype" (one of the worst buzzwords to exist in this era IMO) but I feel like this should be said:
For a while, overseas events in particular have had basically the same handful of low-mid tier Koreans (compared to Code S competitors) attending them to face off against foreigners who are admittedly better than average. I feel that this is more than likely in an attempt to set this kind of scenario up, because it's obvious how much attention events receive and how easy it is to "hype" up the chance of something like this happening. However, if you step back and compare the kind of Korean they're facing, it's really not that impressive, and it's almost expected at this point for these Koreans to lose, because they're not the same quality of Korean that competes in Korea.
To me, it seems like these Koreans in particular (coincidentally, MC HyuN jjakji MMA StarDust are perhaps the five that attend the most of these events out of any set of Koreans) keep being invited because not only are foreign fans more capable of recognizing them compared to other Koreans (because they keep getting invited) but also because to a foreigner, they're the most beatable Koreans nowadays, and when all the vast majority of foreign fans are capable of seeing is "a foreigner beat a Korean", the quality of Korean that the foreigner is beating is irrelevant.
I don't mean to rain on a parade here, but it's been obvious for a while, to me at least, what tournaments have been trying to do in this regard when it comes to the whole foreigner taking on the Korean menace bias. I'm probably going to be lambasted because people still think of most of those players listed as if they're still in their 2012 form, which would make a foreigner beating them special, but it's almost 2015, and nearly every single Korean that is actively invited and/or attends foreign events would more than likely struggle to qualify for Code A - just like foreigners.
haters gonna hate.
Gj bunny and teamliquid, awesome job u guys are doing
Bunny deserves the plaudits he's received, but sunship's analysis is also accurate (at least in regards to the skill of Koreans attending; unlike him, I don't think there is any kind of pro-foreigner tournament conspiracy).
For example, if Bunny played proleague, and he had a 40% win ratio, I would consider that a much greater accomplishment than him winning this tournament.
Based on your perception, that means Stephano and Naniwa were the best of all time. Since Nani routinely had a min 40% win rate in his time in Korea and Naniwa made long runs in Code S. And yet, both these guys would lose to MC/Hyun/MMA in tournaments during the same time period. Heck, Snute is probably the best foreigner because he had a huge win rate in Korea. So, why are those results not translating in tournaments? Oh, because the talent pool is similar. So, you're evaluation of "facts" and "opinions" on Code S players isn't truly existent.
I don't think anyone would dispute that Naniwa & Stephano have accomplished much more than Bunny.
But let's be clear. Stephano & Naniwa competed against MC, Hyun, & MMA when they were better players. At one point, they were some of the finest players in the world. Now they aren't. I think I could beat the 80 year old Bill Russell in a basketball game today. If I do, I'll look forward to catabowl declaring me the greatest winner in NBA history.
What's more, you have to look at the players Bunny actually played in this tournament. If I'm correct, he only played Stardust & Hyun. And while normally I'm not one denigrate someone who beats the people who are put in front of him, you have to remember this was a small scale invite tournament. So in this case, doing so is very justified.
Finally, I'm not sure what you're talking about when you're referring to 'win rates in Korea.' I'm referring to a very specific win rate.
Again, Bunny deserves to be celebrated. But if he won 4/10 proleague matches, I'd be much, much more impressed.
I totally laughed when I saw that bit about MC and Hyun not being some of the finest players in the world. Both are world class players that are scary for ANY player in the world to have to face imo.
Sorry but you can not deny that with the rise of the proleague players guys like Hyun,MMA and MC look like less impressive players.
On August 04 2014 18:39 sunship wrote: I understand that people see "foreigner beat korean in a finals" and want to be blinded by this concept of "hype" (one of the worst buzzwords to exist in this era IMO) but I feel like this should be said:
For a while, overseas events in particular have had basically the same handful of low-mid tier Koreans (compared to Code S competitors) attending them to face off against foreigners who are admittedly better than average. I feel that this is more than likely in an attempt to set this kind of scenario up, because it's obvious how much attention events receive and how easy it is to "hype" up the chance of something like this happening. However, if you step back and compare the kind of Korean they're facing, it's really not that impressive, and it's almost expected at this point for these Koreans to lose, because they're not the same quality of Korean that competes in Korea.
To me, it seems like these Koreans in particular (coincidentally, MC HyuN jjakji MMA StarDust are perhaps the five that attend the most of these events out of any set of Koreans) keep being invited because not only are foreign fans more capable of recognizing them compared to other Koreans (because they keep getting invited) but also because to a foreigner, they're the most beatable Koreans nowadays, and when all the vast majority of foreign fans are capable of seeing is "a foreigner beat a Korean", the quality of Korean that the foreigner is beating is irrelevant.
I don't mean to rain on a parade here, but it's been obvious for a while, to me at least, what tournaments have been trying to do in this regard when it comes to the whole foreigner taking on the Korean menace bias. I'm probably going to be lambasted because people still think of most of those players listed as if they're still in their 2012 form, which would make a foreigner beating them special, but it's almost 2015, and nearly every single Korean that is actively invited and/or attends foreign events would more than likely struggle to qualify for Code A - just like foreigners.
haters gonna hate.
Gj bunny and teamliquid, awesome job u guys are doing
Bunny deserves the plaudits he's received, but sunship's analysis is also accurate (at least in regards to the skill of Koreans attending; unlike him, I don't think there is any kind of pro-foreigner tournament conspiracy).
For example, if Bunny played proleague, and he had a 40% win ratio, I would consider that a much greater accomplishment than him winning this tournament.
Based on your perception, that means Stephano and Naniwa were the best of all time. Since Nani routinely had a min 40% win rate in his time in Korea and Naniwa made long runs in Code S. And yet, both these guys would lose to MC/Hyun/MMA in tournaments during the same time period. Heck, Snute is probably the best foreigner because he had a huge win rate in Korea. So, why are those results not translating in tournaments? Oh, because the talent pool is similar. So, you're evaluation of "facts" and "opinions" on Code S players isn't truly existent.
I don't think anyone would dispute that Naniwa & Stephano have accomplished much more than Bunny.
But let's be clear. Stephano & Naniwa competed against MC, Hyun, & MMA when they were better players. At one point, they were some of the finest players in the world. Now they aren't. I think I could beat the 80 year old Bill Russell in a basketball game today. If I do, I'll look forward to catabowl declaring me the greatest winner in NBA history.
What's more, you have to look at the players Bunny actually played in this tournament. If I'm correct, he only played Stardust & Hyun. And while normally I'm not one denigrate someone who beats the people who are put in front of him, you have to remember this was a small scale invite tournament. So in this case, doing so is very justified.
Finally, I'm not sure what you're talking about when you're referring to 'win rates in Korea.' I'm referring to a very specific win rate.
Again, Bunny deserves to be celebrated. But if he won 4/10 proleague matches, I'd be much, much more impressed.
I totally laughed when I saw that bit about MC and Hyun not being some of the finest players in the world. Both are world class players that are scary for ANY player in the world to have to face imo.
Sorry but you can not deny that with the rise of the proleague players guys like Hyun,MMA and MC look like less impressive players.
Absolutely. Flash can't lose in Korea and gets beaten by MC as soon as they meet. MC, hyun, taeja, polt have shown that they are clearly capable of competing against even the very best Korean players. Don't let that get in the way with your embarrassing narrative though!
On August 04 2014 18:39 sunship wrote: I understand that people see "foreigner beat korean in a finals" and want to be blinded by this concept of "hype" (one of the worst buzzwords to exist in this era IMO) but I feel like this should be said:
For a while, overseas events in particular have had basically the same handful of low-mid tier Koreans (compared to Code S competitors) attending them to face off against foreigners who are admittedly better than average. I feel that this is more than likely in an attempt to set this kind of scenario up, because it's obvious how much attention events receive and how easy it is to "hype" up the chance of something like this happening. However, if you step back and compare the kind of Korean they're facing, it's really not that impressive, and it's almost expected at this point for these Koreans to lose, because they're not the same quality of Korean that competes in Korea.
To me, it seems like these Koreans in particular (coincidentally, MC HyuN jjakji MMA StarDust are perhaps the five that attend the most of these events out of any set of Koreans) keep being invited because not only are foreign fans more capable of recognizing them compared to other Koreans (because they keep getting invited) but also because to a foreigner, they're the most beatable Koreans nowadays, and when all the vast majority of foreign fans are capable of seeing is "a foreigner beat a Korean", the quality of Korean that the foreigner is beating is irrelevant.
I don't mean to rain on a parade here, but it's been obvious for a while, to me at least, what tournaments have been trying to do in this regard when it comes to the whole foreigner taking on the Korean menace bias. I'm probably going to be lambasted because people still think of most of those players listed as if they're still in their 2012 form, which would make a foreigner beating them special, but it's almost 2015, and nearly every single Korean that is actively invited and/or attends foreign events would more than likely struggle to qualify for Code A - just like foreigners.
haters gonna hate.
Gj bunny and teamliquid, awesome job u guys are doing
Bunny deserves the plaudits he's received, but sunship's analysis is also accurate (at least in regards to the skill of Koreans attending; unlike him, I don't think there is any kind of pro-foreigner tournament conspiracy).
For example, if Bunny played proleague, and he had a 40% win ratio, I would consider that a much greater accomplishment than him winning this tournament.
Based on your perception, that means Stephano and Naniwa were the best of all time. Since Nani routinely had a min 40% win rate in his time in Korea and Naniwa made long runs in Code S. And yet, both these guys would lose to MC/Hyun/MMA in tournaments during the same time period. Heck, Snute is probably the best foreigner because he had a huge win rate in Korea. So, why are those results not translating in tournaments? Oh, because the talent pool is similar. So, you're evaluation of "facts" and "opinions" on Code S players isn't truly existent.
I don't think anyone would dispute that Naniwa & Stephano have accomplished much more than Bunny.
But let's be clear. Stephano & Naniwa competed against MC, Hyun, & MMA when they were better players. At one point, they were some of the finest players in the world. Now they aren't. I think I could beat the 80 year old Bill Russell in a basketball game today. If I do, I'll look forward to catabowl declaring me the greatest winner in NBA history.
What's more, you have to look at the players Bunny actually played in this tournament. If I'm correct, he only played Stardust & Hyun. And while normally I'm not one denigrate someone who beats the people who are put in front of him, you have to remember this was a small scale invite tournament. So in this case, doing so is very justified.
Finally, I'm not sure what you're talking about when you're referring to 'win rates in Korea.' I'm referring to a very specific win rate.
Again, Bunny deserves to be celebrated. But if he won 4/10 proleague matches, I'd be much, much more impressed.
I totally laughed when I saw that bit about MC and Hyun not being some of the finest players in the world. Both are world class players that are scary for ANY player in the world to have to face imo.
Sorry but you can not deny that with the rise of the proleague players guys like Hyun,MMA and MC look like less impressive players.
Absolutely. Flash can't lose in Korea and gets beaten by MC as soon as they meet. MC, hyun, taeja, polt have shown that they are clearly capable of competing against even the very best Korean players. Don't let that get in the way with your embarrassing narrative though!
To be honest i did not notice that flash lost 1-2 vs MC. I still think that the overall results of kespa player is better right now. I never said the other player suck though. They are just not as dominant as they were before. BTW you could be a little bit nicer instead you prefer being a retard.
On August 04 2014 18:39 sunship wrote: I understand that people see "foreigner beat korean in a finals" and want to be blinded by this concept of "hype" (one of the worst buzzwords to exist in this era IMO) but I feel like this should be said:
For a while, overseas events in particular have had basically the same handful of low-mid tier Koreans (compared to Code S competitors) attending them to face off against foreigners who are admittedly better than average. I feel that this is more than likely in an attempt to set this kind of scenario up, because it's obvious how much attention events receive and how easy it is to "hype" up the chance of something like this happening. However, if you step back and compare the kind of Korean they're facing, it's really not that impressive, and it's almost expected at this point for these Koreans to lose, because they're not the same quality of Korean that competes in Korea.
To me, it seems like these Koreans in particular (coincidentally, MC HyuN jjakji MMA StarDust are perhaps the five that attend the most of these events out of any set of Koreans) keep being invited because not only are foreign fans more capable of recognizing them compared to other Koreans (because they keep getting invited) but also because to a foreigner, they're the most beatable Koreans nowadays, and when all the vast majority of foreign fans are capable of seeing is "a foreigner beat a Korean", the quality of Korean that the foreigner is beating is irrelevant.
I don't mean to rain on a parade here, but it's been obvious for a while, to me at least, what tournaments have been trying to do in this regard when it comes to the whole foreigner taking on the Korean menace bias. I'm probably going to be lambasted because people still think of most of those players listed as if they're still in their 2012 form, which would make a foreigner beating them special, but it's almost 2015, and nearly every single Korean that is actively invited and/or attends foreign events would more than likely struggle to qualify for Code A - just like foreigners.
haters gonna hate.
Gj bunny and teamliquid, awesome job u guys are doing
Bunny deserves the plaudits he's received, but sunship's analysis is also accurate (at least in regards to the skill of Koreans attending; unlike him, I don't think there is any kind of pro-foreigner tournament conspiracy).
For example, if Bunny played proleague, and he had a 40% win ratio, I would consider that a much greater accomplishment than him winning this tournament.
Based on your perception, that means Stephano and Naniwa were the best of all time. Since Nani routinely had a min 40% win rate in his time in Korea and Naniwa made long runs in Code S. And yet, both these guys would lose to MC/Hyun/MMA in tournaments during the same time period. Heck, Snute is probably the best foreigner because he had a huge win rate in Korea. So, why are those results not translating in tournaments? Oh, because the talent pool is similar. So, you're evaluation of "facts" and "opinions" on Code S players isn't truly existent.
I don't think anyone would dispute that Naniwa & Stephano have accomplished much more than Bunny.
But let's be clear. Stephano & Naniwa competed against MC, Hyun, & MMA when they were better players. At one point, they were some of the finest players in the world. Now they aren't. I think I could beat the 80 year old Bill Russell in a basketball game today. If I do, I'll look forward to catabowl declaring me the greatest winner in NBA history.
What's more, you have to look at the players Bunny actually played in this tournament. If I'm correct, he only played Stardust & Hyun. And while normally I'm not one denigrate someone who beats the people who are put in front of him, you have to remember this was a small scale invite tournament. So in this case, doing so is very justified.
Finally, I'm not sure what you're talking about when you're referring to 'win rates in Korea.' I'm referring to a very specific win rate.
Again, Bunny deserves to be celebrated. But if he won 4/10 proleague matches, I'd be much, much more impressed.
I totally laughed when I saw that bit about MC and Hyun not being some of the finest players in the world. Both are world class players that are scary for ANY player in the world to have to face imo.
Sorry but you can not deny that with the rise of the proleague players guys like Hyun,MMA and MC look like less impressive players.
Absolutely. Flash can't lose in Korea and gets beaten by MC as soon as they meet. MC, hyun, taeja, polt have shown that they are clearly capable of competing against even the very best Korean players. Don't let that get in the way with your embarrassing narrative though!
To be honest i did not notice that flash lost 1-2 vs MC. I still think that the overall results of kespa player is better right now. I never said the other player suck though. They are just not as dominant as they were before. BTW you could be a little bit nicer instead you prefer being a retard.
I never denied that kespa players had better results, obviously they were always going to. They have far more players and basically have all the best starcraft talent so it was inevitable. The fact that MC and hyun are no longer THE best players in the world doesn't suddenly mean that they are suddenly push overs for foreigners. You were basically agreeing with someone who was suggesting that tournaments were rigged by picking easy beat koreans like MC, hyun, jjakiji etc (even though there are obvious reasons why these are the guys at these tournaments). It also completely ignores the fact that these guys have been able to consistently compete with and beat kespa players when they actually travel to foreign tournaments.
BTW calling someone a retard is highly offensive and i don't mean to me either. If you're trying to take the high ground that's a fairly silly way of going about it.
No offense but it did not look like Taeja is on the same level as Flash right now. Taeja is still a boss and to be honest i thought he will win vs flash in the first place.
On September 01 2014 01:28 TaShadan wrote: No offense but it did not look like Taeja is on the same level as Flash right now. Taeja is still a boss and to be honest i thought he will win vs flash in the first place.
On September 01 2014 01:28 TaShadan wrote: No offense but it did not look like Taeja is on the same level as Flash right now. Taeja is still a boss and to be honest i thought he will win vs flash in the first place.
How have all the kespa players been performing against flash recently? It's not like zest came closer either. About the only player who has managed to take a series off flash in the last month is MC. It doesn't change the fact that those posts claiming tournaments are in some way rigged by only inviting players like MC and hyun are just ludicrous for many reasons. This isn't a kespa vs non kespa Korean thing so i'm not sure why it's being turned into that.
EPT
Bunny beat Sacsri in WCS EU Challenger League to make it back to Premier, many in the community were surprised with his performance. He had to face the most recent DreamHack champion--a player who looked like a revelation in his first offline tournament appearance--but on that night in WCS Europe, Bunny prevailed. Though he was a consistent feature of Europe's biggest tournament, he had yet to ascend the heights of his more illustrious teammates. His lack of success in major tournaments rightfully made him the underdog to the newly crowned DreamHack winner, but that label mattered not to the Liquid Terran.
.
) would want to minimize Bunny's achievement.
