4 players down, 2 to go until we crown our WCS Season 2 Champion. One past title holder has already fallen in his match against the reigning champ, and we also saw one big upset in the final series of the evening. The prospect of an All Terran Final Four was also dashed, but we do get to see each race represented in the semi finals. Things heat up in California as we get ready for the final day of the season.
Ro8 Recaps
Heart 3 - 0 viOLet
In the first matchup of the night Axiom's Heart made short work of viOLet in a 3-0 sweep. Although the series looked like it would most likely be fairly close on paper, Heart's TvZ prowess can no longer be denied. He never lost control in any of the games, and viOLet seemed unable to rattle Heart with standard ZvT or a roach heavy style.
In game one, viOLet opted to go for standard muta/ling/baneling play, but Heart was all over him from the start. His multitasking and harassment was superior to viOLet's throughout the game, and his macro kept him ahead of his Zerg opponent in supply for much of the match. viOLet tried gamely to hold on, but Heart was able to take a few good engagements and push to win the game. In game two, viOLet decided to switch it up and try his luck with a roach/hydra composition that looked so fearsome against MajOr, but to no avail. Heart did big damage with drop play, and viOLet's push into the natural was far too impatient. The Zerg army was shredded by tank fire from the high ground, and Heart was able to counter push to win game two. In the final game of the set, Heart appeared to have an even easier time. After doing significant economic damage with his early six hellions, his macro was just too much for viOLet, and his push out across the map ended up just killing off all of viOLet's roaches and securing Heart the series.
Although it was predictable that Heart would have won this series due to the TvZ we have seen from him recently, it is hard to believe that he dominated viOLet so thoroughly. The road ahead isn't any easier for Heart, but his displays so far this season look promising. He has been one of the most entertaining players in Season 2, and it's unlikely that Heart won't have many more fans after this incredible run.
Alicia 2 - 3 Bomber
After five intense, all-out scrappy games, RedBull.Bomber finally claimed revenge on Ax.Alicia by defeating the Axiom Protoss. Both players were at each other’s throats the entire time trying to punish every minor mistake. In the end, after all the bizarre strategies and shenanigans, Bomber emerged victorious and moved on to the semifinals.
Clearly thirsty for blood, Bomber came out of the gates with guns blazing, and Alicia was determined to match his intensity. In game one, Alicia’s one colossus fake straight into storm proved too costly for Bomber, who overcompensated with vikings. Feeling confident, Alicia then went for a proxy 8-gate against Bomber’s CC on the low ground. What initially looked like a build order win somehow turned into an epic comeback for the RedBull Terran. Thanks to Alicia’s mis-micro, Bomber managed to stabilize and win with a huge 2-base attack with SCVs. In the next game, Bomber responded with a unique marine/tank push off a Gangnam Terran. Alicia held on admirably but Bomber had just a few too many units. Up 2-1, Bomber had a golden opportunity to close out the series on Alterzim but over-extend in one fight, allowing Alicia to tie up the series with a counter-attack.
For the second season in a row, the series between Alicia and Bomber came down to a final game five. In one bold move, Bomber caught the greedy Alicia off-guard with his early bio force and sniped the natural nexus. Accordingly, Bomber’s trade of army for economic damage prompted Alicia to go for the counter. But this time, it was Alicia who over-extended which ultimately cost him the series. Finally, after a hard fought series of hyper-aggressive games, Bomber pulled through to earn his first ever trip to the WCS AM semis.
Polt 0 - 3 HyuN
The defending WCS America champ, Roccat.HyuN made short work of CMStorm.Polt in the quarterfinals with a clean 3-0 sweep. Granted, Polt’s TvZ level has declined in recent times but not many would have predicted such a one-sided affair. Meanwhile, if HyuN can win his semifinal match against Pigbaby, then he is guaranteed to face a Terran in the finals. We’ll find out tomorrow if the Roccat Zerg can hang on to his WCS crown.
HyuN took an early lead in game one when his speedlings managed to cancel Polt’s CC and delay the Terran economy. He then capitalized on this lead by executing a perfectly timed out 2/2 roach/hydra attack to finish the job. On the following map, HyuN used a nydus to ferry roaches into Polt’s main while Terran was across the map. Polt failed to spot the nydus early on and that cost him the game. The third and final game can be summed up by Polt trying desperately to hang on against wave after wave of roaches and banelings. Each miraculous hold seemed to take a toll on the American hero until he could no longer bear the burden and had to gg.
Overall, HyuN showed some hyun-believable ZvT today – his builds were precise, calculated, and cleanly executed. He was very aggressive and applied constant pressure on his opponent, and as a result, Polt was never able to comfortably play his game.
Pigbaby 3 - 0 TaeJa
The end of the night could not have been more surprising as TaeJa was defeated by a resplendent Pigbaby in 3 straight games. Coming into the evening, almost everyone would have put their money on the King of Summer, who had won his past two tournaments in dominant fashion. It wasn't just the result that shocked the SC2 world, but the manner in which it was dispensed. In retrospect, we probably should have respected a former Kespa Protoss to come in prepared and play well, but it is generally tough for any Protoss to beat Taeja, let alone a teamless Proleague castoff. Pigbaby's stock has risen dramatically since his win last night, and it will be interesting to see if he can royal road his way to a WCS America championship.
The key unit throughout the entire series was unquestionably the observer for Pigbaby. In an effort to shut down Taeja's drop heavy style and widow mine openings, Pigbaby prioritized getting out a very high number of observers, which he would spread all across the map. This ended up giving Pigbaby a huge edge, as he was always on top of Taeja's drops before he could take damage, and never suffered that infamous defeat of PvT where your whole army starts to die from cloaked ghosts when you don't have an observer with your army. Game one was simply a matter of Pigbaby defending brilliantly until he had a strong enough army to engage. He was patient and picked the correct end game fight in order to push for the win. In game two, Pigbaby once again defended flawlessly and held on to an upgrade lead before pulling Taeja apart with an attack on the third and a zealot warp-in in the main. Game three saw Taeja make some good colossus snipes, but at the cost of a significant chunk of his bio. After all of Taeja's pressure was done, Pigbaby had been able to maintain a stronger army and was able to push for the win once more.
Not many people would have expected Taeja to go out 0-3 during the Summer months, especially after his performance a few weeks ago at Dreamhack. However, you cannot take anything away from Pigbaby, as he dominated the final series with solid and prepared play. Protoss players who have struggled against Taeja should take note, because Pigbaby put on a clinic in how to beat him last night: build 7 observers. The King of Summer is thus once again denied his Great White Whale: a WCS title.
Heart vs Bomber Preview
You have to think that for Bomber, coming this agonizingly close to a third Premier Tournament title should feel familiar. But after over 4 years in the scene, those 2 tournament wins have come few and far between. For someone of Bomber's talent, that's nothing less than a disappointment. This is the furthest he's been since his personal sponsorship with Red Bull, and he's definitely one of the fan favorites left.
Fortunately, two of the players that Bomber seems to be unable to beat, Polt and TaeJa, have been knocked out in the other side of the bracket. That leaves Heart and one of HyuN and Pigbaby remaining.
For Heart, on the other hand, this is as far as he's come since 2012 MLG Winter Championships. He's never won gold, and he's never been considered one of the best players on the planet. After serving up clinic after clinic in TvZ, at the very least he's now one of the most exciting players in the matchup. Now, he has to prove that in the mirror.
While he was formerly a very cheesy one or two base Terran, he has now become a solid macro terran that relies on his mechanics and micro to squeak out wins. His games against XiGua in the Round of 16 will go down as some of the year's best, and it also displayed a new found resiliency. His inexperience at this stage of tournaments should be a concern, but it's not the only factor where he lags behind Bomber.
Upon first inspection, it looks like these two players are evenly matched in TvT, unfortunately, we must look at foreigner inflation (that is, how much your winrates are boosted by beating foreigners). Taking only Korean mirrors into account, Bomber has an impressive 66% winrate, while Heart bottoms out at 48%. The last time these two players met, Bomber cleaned house with 3 straight wins at Lone Star Clash. It shouldn't be indicative of how this match will play out, but it will certainly be in the back of Heart's mind.
The way I see it, Bomber will try to play with initiative while Heart will spend most of his games trying to macro (and throw in a cheese or two for throwback's sake). The former has a plethora of builds available while the latter has shed his one base ways. However, even if Bomber is able to take an advantage into the mid game, Heart has the micro and force of will to claw back from disadvantages. This should be the pattern that this series follows, but Bomber should be good enough to close it out.
Overall Predictions:
Bomber won last time, and I think Bomber will win again. He is a proven talent in TvT where he's beaten players considered among the best in the matchup. As for Heart, he is no slouch, but he hasn't had a memorable offline TvT win in a while. If anything, it will come down to his ability to keep his nerves in check and his knowledge of Bomber's builds. It's doable, but with 1 day between series, I don't think the Axiom Terran can prepare well enough. And yes, I did go one Bomber preview without mentioning his Law.
Oops.
Bomber 3 - 1 Heart
HyuN vs Pigbaby Preview
The defending champ rolls on, and now he faces a Protoss, which was once HyuN's famed matchup, mostly because of roaches. His ability to do more and get more value out of his roaches is unparalleled, and with the unit one of the cruxes of the macthup, it's understandable that he has had much success in it.
This season, HyuN has only played 1 ZvP, a loss to Alicia. However, he did look good at MLG Anaheim with victories against HuK, puCK, and Alicia, but he lost twice to Trap. At DreamHack Summer, he beat HuK but lost to Sjaak and MC. This is a cause for concern for his fans, as it appears that he has been experiencing trouble with top level Protosses that prefer to be aggressive. HyuN is at his best when he's able to split his army and use roach hit squads while dealing the killing blow with tech switches, so keeping him on the back foot and constantly forcing him to build units has been one of his clear vulnerabilities. However, he is also the most experienced player left in WCS AM, and that has to count for a lot. He is the defending champion so no one can doubt his ability, so it will come down to how well he matches up to his opponent. Against just about anyone, that means he is favored.
Proving that preparation is better than apparent talent or momentum in WCS events, Pigbaby's experience as a Proleague player on Jin Air has paid dividends despite all the doubts that people have with his playstyle. While he has often shown a more aggressive and all-in style in his games so far, he changed things up to beat TaeJa handily. He looked more like a Rain than a MC in his preference for knowledge through observers than risky map presence, and you have to believe that he'll be prepared for his next opponent despite the quick turnaround.
One of the most difficult things about predicting Pigbaby games is the fact that, aside from random qualifiers, WCS AM is his only tournament. This makes it impossible to know what his playstyle is going to be like, as a series or two is too few to determine how he tends to play. With no knowledge of what he looks like on the ladder, we basically have to take a shot in the dark in our predictions and hope we're right.
However, if one thing is for certain, it's that Pigbaby is good. While many still felt like he was lucky to make it to the Round of 8 on the back of all ins and foreigners, his victory of TaeJa during one of his peaks shows that he isn't a one trick pony, and certainly isn't here because of good fortune. Against Zerg, Pigbaby also has a love of timing attacks and trickery, but with only 7 PvZ series this year, Pigbaby could surprise us and change things up again. He has beaten iAsonu, XiGua, and Revival this season, so he's no slouch, but will he be able to handle HyuN's roach style?
Overall Predictions:
Out of all the players HyuN has faced recently, Pigbaby most resembles Trap. Known more for 2base timings and planned build orders rather than impressive macro, Trap surprised everyone by winning MLG Anaheim off the back of an impenetrable late game. The two Protosses have a lot in common, and Pigbaby should like this comparison. It might not have appeared likely at the start of the season that the former Jin Air man could win the season, but I expect him to come within an inch of making the Grand Finals.
Nice recap. I don't know the big deal about Pigbaby beating Taeja. Ok, a 3-0, maybe was surprising, but an overall win was not beyond belief. I heard most criticism in the WCS chat that Taeja, in his last 20-0 games, faced many foreigners that were below his skill level. Isn't Pigbaby a former Kespa player? Is this the first "true" top tier Korean he has faced in in this streak of wins? Please clarify if my assumptions are incorrect. Thanks.
Pigbaby have never been top tier though he have been neglected despite some solid results but it has mostly been his name that people talked about. Taeja is top tier korean.
Do you want a piglet or pigbaby? I want a pigbaby!
On July 07 2014 01:37 Achmoulin wrote: Pigbaby have never been top tier though he have been neglected despite some solid results but it has mostly been his name that people talked about. Taeja is top tier korean.
Do you want a piglet or pigbaby? I want a pigbaby!
I consider a top tier Korean someone that proves themself in Code A or Code S. Taeja has stuck with being successful in foreign events. I put him on the same scale as MC: They do well in foreign events and make money, but if they were sent to Korea to compete against people like SOo, Soulkey, Zest, Classic etc then he would be pulled apart. Do you agree?
Against those names? Sure, but so would probably Pigbaby. He didnt get that much play time in Jin Air. Id say he is/was a "solid korean protoss" rather than "top tier korean". For sure he is better now than hes ever been.
On July 07 2014 01:37 Achmoulin wrote: Pigbaby have never been top tier though he have been neglected despite some solid results but it has mostly been his name that people talked about. Taeja is top tier korean.
Do you want a piglet or pigbaby? I want a pigbaby!
I consider a top tier Korean someone that proves themself in Code A or Code S. Taeja has stuck with being successful in foreign events. I put him on the same scale as MC: They do well in foreign events and make money, but if they were sent to Korea to compete against people like SOo, Soulkey, Zest, Classic etc then he would be pulled apart. Do you agree?
Well I would agree. Taeja is in this weird spot where he looks untouchable but only puts himself in tournaments where the competition clearly isn't on his level. That and his results in long tournaments speak for themselves, he has never won one, heck he has never made the FINALS of one either, he is basically the ultimate "weekend warrior", he seems to have this block preventing him from going all the way. My theory on that is, Taejas mechanics are absolutely superb and having really strong mechanics puts you at a great advantage in a weekend tournament where you don't know who your opponent will be and have no time to study them. However, he is vulnerable in formats where he can be studied and prepared for. Of course it's still not enough to just do that, he's going to run over foreigners and weaker Korean players in earlier rounds, but he can be stopped with proper preparation by a solid Korean like Pigbaby, not even top-tier.
Put in a tournament with Code S quality players I don't see him doing all that well. I'd like to see that happen just to find out.
On July 07 2014 01:37 Achmoulin wrote: Pigbaby have never been top tier though he have been neglected despite some solid results but it has mostly been his name that people talked about. Taeja is top tier korean.
Do you want a piglet or pigbaby? I want a pigbaby!
I consider a top tier Korean someone that proves themself in Code A or Code S. Taeja has stuck with being successful in foreign events. I put him on the same scale as MC: They do well in foreign events and make money, but if they were sent to Korea to compete against people like SOo, Soulkey, Zest, Classic etc then he would be pulled apart. Do you agree?
Well I would agree. Taeja is in this weird spot where he looks untouchable but only puts himself in tournaments where the competition clearly isn't on his level. That and his results in long tournaments speak for themselves, he has never won one, heck he has never made the FINALS of one either, he is basically the ultimate "weekend warrior", he seems to have this block preventing him from going all the way. My theory on that is, Taejas mechanics are absolutely superb and having really strong mechanics puts you at a great advantage in a weekend tournament where you don't know who your opponent will be and have no time to study them. However, he is vulnerable in formats where he can be studied and prepared for. Of course it's still not enough to just do that, he's going to run over foreigners and weaker Korean players in earlier rounds, but he can be stopped with proper preparation by a solid Korean like Pigbaby, not even top-tier.
Put in a tournament with Code S quality players I don't see him doing all that well. I'd like to see that happen just to find out.
You know what this means, right TB? Shouttaeja Invidisksan invitational on the way? haha
On July 07 2014 01:37 Achmoulin wrote: Pigbaby have never been top tier though he have been neglected despite some solid results but it has mostly been his name that people talked about. Taeja is top tier korean.
Do you want a piglet or pigbaby? I want a pigbaby!
I consider a top tier Korean someone that proves themself in Code A or Code S. Taeja has stuck with being successful in foreign events. I put him on the same scale as MC: They do well in foreign events and make money, but if they were sent to Korea to compete against people like SOo, Soulkey, Zest, Classic etc then he would be pulled apart. Do you agree?
Well I would agree. Taeja is in this weird spot where he looks untouchable but only puts himself in tournaments where the competition clearly isn't on his level. That and his results in long tournaments speak for themselves, he has never won one, heck he has never made the FINALS of one either, he is basically the ultimate "weekend warrior", he seems to have this block preventing him from going all the way. My theory on that is, Taejas mechanics are absolutely superb and having really strong mechanics puts you at a great advantage in a weekend tournament where you don't know who your opponent will be and have no time to study them. However, he is vulnerable in formats where he can be studied and prepared for. Of course it's still not enough to just do that, he's going to run over foreigners and weaker Korean players in earlier rounds, but he can be stopped with proper preparation by a solid Korean like Pigbaby, not even top-tier.
Put in a tournament with Code S quality players I don't see him doing all that well. I'd like to see that happen just to find out.
The thing about Taeja is that he practices on ladder so he's super strong at tournaments that span a few days. You sometimes hear in Korean interviews that they say the specifically practiced against the race they're going up against, but Taeja relies on his experience with the unexpected (laddering) to carry him through. Ever since Taeja joined Team Liquid, I don't think I remember him ever saying that he practiced a lot for the finals of a tournament or for a specific opponent.
If Taeja did live in a team house and practice catered towards a certain player, I think he could be amazing, but that's not his style.
On July 07 2014 01:37 Achmoulin wrote: Pigbaby have never been top tier though he have been neglected despite some solid results but it has mostly been his name that people talked about. Taeja is top tier korean.
Do you want a piglet or pigbaby? I want a pigbaby!
I consider a top tier Korean someone that proves themself in Code A or Code S. Taeja has stuck with being successful in foreign events. I put him on the same scale as MC: They do well in foreign events and make money, but if they were sent to Korea to compete against people like SOo, Soulkey, Zest, Classic etc then he would be pulled apart. Do you agree?
i don't think MC or Taeja would be decimated in Code S or Code A if they played in Korea, but they certainly would look pedestrian in comparison to what we see them do in foreign tournaments. i certainly agree that Taeja is a top tier Korean, but the Koreans playing Code S are top tier as well, and many of them at least as good, if not better, than Taeja.
On July 07 2014 01:14 SirPinky wrote: Nice recap. I don't know the big deal about Pigbaby beating Taeja. Ok, a 3-0, maybe was surprising, but an overall win was not beyond belief. I heard most criticism in the WCS chat that Taeja, in his last 20-0 games, faced many foreigners that were below his skill level. Isn't Pigbaby a former Kespa player? Is this the first "true" top tier Korean he has faced in in this streak of wins? Please clarify if my assumptions are incorrect. Thanks.
Look on TLPD.
He 3-0ed HerO and 4-0ed MC. And many other lesser Koreans.
On July 07 2014 01:37 Achmoulin wrote: Pigbaby have never been top tier though he have been neglected despite some solid results but it has mostly been his name that people talked about. Taeja is top tier korean.
Do you want a piglet or pigbaby? I want a pigbaby!
I consider a top tier Korean someone that proves themself in Code A or Code S. Taeja has stuck with being successful in foreign events. I put him on the same scale as MC: They do well in foreign events and make money, but if they were sent to Korea to compete against people like SOo, Soulkey, Zest, Classic etc then he would be pulled apart. Do you agree?
Well I would agree. Taeja is in this weird spot where he looks untouchable but only puts himself in tournaments where the competition clearly isn't on his level. That and his results in long tournaments speak for themselves, he has never won one, heck he has never made the FINALS of one either, he is basically the ultimate "weekend warrior", he seems to have this block preventing him from going all the way. My theory on that is, Taejas mechanics are absolutely superb and having really strong mechanics puts you at a great advantage in a weekend tournament where you don't know who your opponent will be and have no time to study them. However, he is vulnerable in formats where he can be studied and prepared for. Of course it's still not enough to just do that, he's going to run over foreigners and weaker Korean players in earlier rounds, but he can be stopped with proper preparation by a solid Korean like Pigbaby, not even top-tier.
Put in a tournament with Code S quality players I don't see him doing all that well. I'd like to see that happen just to find out.
My thoughts exactly.
Now I wonder if somehow Taeja decided to change his training habits and added some player specific preparation a la Kespa style... How much his mechanic skills would suffer? I bet studying your opponents takes a lot of time, specially without coaches and teammates to help you. Maybe he thinks it's not worth the time, or maybe he simply doesn't like that type of training :/
On July 07 2014 01:37 Achmoulin wrote: Pigbaby have never been top tier though he have been neglected despite some solid results but it has mostly been his name that people talked about. Taeja is top tier korean.
Do you want a piglet or pigbaby? I want a pigbaby!
I consider a top tier Korean someone that proves themself in Code A or Code S. Taeja has stuck with being successful in foreign events. I put him on the same scale as MC: They do well in foreign events and make money, but if they were sent to Korea to compete against people like SOo, Soulkey, Zest, Classic etc then he would be pulled apart. Do you agree?
Well I would agree. Taeja is in this weird spot where he looks untouchable but only puts himself in tournaments where the competition clearly isn't on his level. That and his results in long tournaments speak for themselves, he has never won one, heck he has never made the FINALS of one either, he is basically the ultimate "weekend warrior", he seems to have this block preventing him from going all the way. My theory on that is, Taejas mechanics are absolutely superb and having really strong mechanics puts you at a great advantage in a weekend tournament where you don't know who your opponent will be and have no time to study them. However, he is vulnerable in formats where he can be studied and prepared for. Of course it's still not enough to just do that, he's going to run over foreigners and weaker Korean players in earlier rounds, but he can be stopped with proper preparation by a solid Korean like Pigbaby, not even top-tier.
Put in a tournament with Code S quality players I don't see him doing all that well. I'd like to see that happen just to find out.
Polt and Taeja seem similar in that regard. They don't have much in the way of strategic diversity so they can be exposed by better prepared opponents. Taeja has done decently in GSL in the past (semis twice I think and a few Ro8's? I dunno) but I think since he left Korea he has become the "weekend warrior" as you say and really has a limited build set. But yeah good mechanics for sure.
On July 07 2014 01:37 Achmoulin wrote: Pigbaby have never been top tier though he have been neglected despite some solid results but it has mostly been his name that people talked about. Taeja is top tier korean.
Do you want a piglet or pigbaby? I want a pigbaby!
I consider a top tier Korean someone that proves themself in Code A or Code S. Taeja has stuck with being successful in foreign events. I put him on the same scale as MC: They do well in foreign events and make money, but if they were sent to Korea to compete against people like SOo, Soulkey, Zest, Classic etc then he would be pulled apart. Do you agree?
Well I would agree. Taeja is in this weird spot where he looks untouchable but only puts himself in tournaments where the competition clearly isn't on his level. That and his results in long tournaments speak for themselves, he has never won one, heck he has never made the FINALS of one either, he is basically the ultimate "weekend warrior", he seems to have this block preventing him from going all the way. My theory on that is, Taejas mechanics are absolutely superb and having really strong mechanics puts you at a great advantage in a weekend tournament where you don't know who your opponent will be and have no time to study them. However, he is vulnerable in formats where he can be studied and prepared for. Of course it's still not enough to just do that, he's going to run over foreigners and weaker Korean players in earlier rounds, but he can be stopped with proper preparation by a solid Korean like Pigbaby, not even top-tier.
Put in a tournament with Code S quality players I don't see him doing all that well. I'd like to see that happen just to find out.
Polt and Taeja seem similar in that regard. They don't have much in the way of strategic diversity so they can be exposed by better prepared opponents. Taeja has done decently in GSL in the past (semis twice I think and a few Ro8's? I dunno) but I think since he left Korea he has become the "weekend warrior" as you say and really has a limited build set. But yeah good mechanics for sure.
Yeah I agree. While I love Taeja, his strength always comes from his versatility and endurance. When an opponent analyses and prepares his play-style, he usually gets demolished in a one sided fashion. There has been plenty of instances in the past where he makes it into the round of 4 in Code S smashing his way through, only losing to opponents who have solid executed builds that target Taeja's playstyle. I suspect the issue with Taeja's style is the lack of targeted preparation; he rarely plays by his opponent's weaknesses but instead, uses his strength to overwhelm them. This is why he's so great in short length events as opposed GSL style brackets.
On July 07 2014 04:19 Dakreyas wrote: How is Pigbaby over Taeja an "upset"???????
Heart beat Pigbaby a few days ago. Taeja is one a tear. Pigbaby hasn't done that much recently so he was a little bit of a mystery. So it seemed that Taeja was the favored player
Why do people keep using terms such as ''B-teamer'' and ''Taeja/MC/Jaedong/Bomber/San are not top koreans they would get demolished in code s'' You have Jaedong who beat Maru, Dear and other good players at the Global finals 7 ish months ago, and you've got Taeja who have won 10 premier titles sure not as ''prestigefull'' as a Code S win but saying they would get decimated in code s is just stupid. RorO and TY both considered at the time atleast top 10 of their race with TY perhaps even being considered top 3. RorO bombing out of the Ro32 and TY bombing out of Ro16 at Dreamhack Bucharest.
this enduring myth that Taeja's win rates are solely against Korean B-teamers and foreigners is preposterous to the max. He has a positive win ratio against something like 30 out of 32 of the players in last season's Code S.
The reason why he hasn't won any WCSs yet is because SC2 is so volatile. It only takes one scrappy series of build order losses to get eliminated, or one groggy day where you don't get enough sleep to make game-losing blunders. And that's not a criticism of the game, I mean even in BW, Flash was once knocked out of the OSL at the peak of his skill by Kal and Hyuk. SC2 and BW aren't games where good intellectual preparation is all you need to win.
On July 07 2014 06:19 LightSpectra wrote: this enduring myth that Taeja's win rates are solely against Korean B-teamers and foreigners is preposterous to the max. He has a positive win ratio against something like 30 out of 32 of the players in last season's Code S.
The reason why he hasn't won any WCSs yet is because SC2 is so volatile. It only takes one scrappy series of build order losses to get eliminated, or one groggy day where you don't get enough sleep to make game-losing blunders. And that's not a criticism of the game, I mean even in BW, Flash was once knocked out of the OSL at the peak of his skill by Kal and Hyuk. SC2 and BW aren't games where good intellectual preparation is all you need to win.
In what tournament is he playing 30 out of the 32 Code S players? I'm really curious.
In the last 3 months, the only Code S players he has played against are Innovation and Symbol (Symbol isn't even in Code S anymore btw, he got 1-4ed out of his group in the RO32). He lost twice to Symbol and traded series 1-1 with Innovation. To find wins against actual Code S players you need to go back even further than that to Katowice where he beat Life, but lost to sOs. He got 4-0ed by Ragnarok in the King of Iron in March... I'm still trawling back to 2013 in order to find him actually beating Code S players (which was mostly Life and a BO3 against sOs at Dreamhack Winter 2013).
If you want to count the last few years of performance then sure, he probably has a positive record against some of those players but a quick look at Aligulac records demonstrates nicely that Taeja is not actually competing against Code S players very often and when he does, it doesn't go well for him on average.
On July 07 2014 06:07 Varroth wrote: Why do people keep using terms such as ''B-teamer'' and ''Taeja/MC/Jaedong/Bomber/San are not top koreans they would get demolished in code s'' You have Jaedong who beat Maru, Dear and other good players at the Global finals 7 ish months ago, and you've got Taeja who have won 10 premier titles sure not as ''prestigefull'' as a Code S win but saying they would get decimated in code s is just stupid. RorO and TY both considered at the time atleast top 10 of their race with TY perhaps even being considered top 3. RorO bombing out of the Ro32 and TY bombing out of Ro16 at Dreamhack Bucharest.
On July 07 2014 06:19 LightSpectra wrote: this enduring myth that Taeja's win rates are solely against Korean B-teamers and foreigners is preposterous to the max. He has a positive win ratio against something like 30 out of 32 of the players in last season's Code S.
The reason why he hasn't won any WCSs yet is because SC2 is so volatile. It only takes one scrappy series of build order losses to get eliminated, or one groggy day where you don't get enough sleep to make game-losing blunders. And that's not a criticism of the game, I mean even in BW, Flash was once knocked out of the OSL at the peak of his skill by Kal and Hyuk. SC2 and BW aren't games where good intellectual preparation is all you need to win.
Doesn't it seem a bit convenient that Taeja only has that 'one groggy day' during long-running tournaments, and seldom at weekend tourneys?
I think some players are just better at weekend tournaments, and some are better at long-running tournaments where you have several days in advance to plan out your games. KeSPA players are definitely better at long-running tournaments, and most have burned out in weekend tourneys. They're not common in Korea, and few kespa players have even competed outside of Korea. So I'd argue that it really comes down to how to practice.
The KeSPA practice regimen is based around studying an opponent and preparing a strategy for a specific opponent and a specific map(s). As someone else mentioned, Taeja mostly practices via ladder, and weekend tournaments are a lot more like ladder(playing with lots and lots of unpredictable opponents) than long-running tournaments(where you're capable of really getting to know your opponent days in advance), so that's why he does so well.
I think it's a bad idea to write it off as Taeja stomping weak "foreigner and low-tier Korean" opponents- weekend tourneys are simply his specialty, and it's what he trains for. Likewise, KeSPA players don't train for random opponents, they train for particular players and maps, so that's what they're good at. Some like sOs, solar, and herO are just plain good enough to be able to do it(or who knows, maybe those three players practice on ladder a lot more than the rest of their teammates?).
tl;dr
If taeja played in the GSL he'd probably get stomped, but if he played those same KeSPA opponents in a weekend tournament, he'd probably stomp them.
On July 07 2014 06:07 Varroth wrote: Why do people keep using terms such as ''B-teamer'' and ''Taeja/MC/Jaedong/Bomber/San are not top koreans they would get demolished in code s'' You have Jaedong who beat Maru, Dear and other good players at the Global finals 7 ish months ago, and you've got Taeja who have won 10 premier titles sure not as ''prestigefull'' as a Code S win but saying they would get decimated in code s is just stupid. RorO and TY both considered at the time atleast top 10 of their race with TY perhaps even being considered top 3. RorO bombing out of the Ro32 and TY bombing out of Ro16 at Dreamhack Bucharest.
lol RorO and TY have done little in individual leagues for awhile now. TY actually have never done anything in individual leagues.
On July 07 2014 06:19 LightSpectra wrote: this enduring myth that Taeja's win rates are solely against Korean B-teamers and foreigners is preposterous to the max. He has a positive win ratio against something like 30 out of 32 of the players in last season's Code S.
The reason why he hasn't won any WCSs yet is because SC2 is so volatile. It only takes one scrappy series of build order losses to get eliminated, or one groggy day where you don't get enough sleep to make game-losing blunders. And that's not a criticism of the game, I mean even in BW, Flash was once knocked out of the OSL at the peak of his skill by Kal and Hyuk. SC2 and BW aren't games where good intellectual preparation is all you need to win.
In what tournament is he playing 30 out of the 32 Code S players? I'm really curious.
In the last 3 months, the only Code S players he has played against are Innovation and Symbol (Symbol isn't even in Code S anymore btw, he got 1-4ed out of his group in the RO32). He lost twice to Symbol and traded series 1-1 with Innovation. To find wins against actual Code S players you need to go back even further than that to Katowice where he beat Life, but lost to sOs. He got 4-0ed by Ragnarok in the King of Iron in March... I'm still trawling back to 2013 in order to find him actually beating Code S players (which was mostly Life and a BO3 against sOs at Dreamhack Winter 2013).
If you want to count the last few years of performance then sure, he probably has a positive record against some of those players but a quick look at Aligulac records demonstrates nicely that Taeja is not actually competing against Code S players very often and when he does, it doesn't go well for him on average.
For anyone else this wouldn't be a criticism but Taeja is heralded as one of the best Terrans in the world, and when he has that kind of praise behind him these kinds of criticisms are warranted.
He just does not compete against other GSL quality pros enough and he's good enough that he should.
On July 07 2014 06:19 LightSpectra wrote: this enduring myth that Taeja's win rates are solely against Korean B-teamers and foreigners is preposterous to the max. He has a positive win ratio against something like 30 out of 32 of the players in last season's Code S.
The reason why he hasn't won any WCSs yet is because SC2 is so volatile. It only takes one scrappy series of build order losses to get eliminated, or one groggy day where you don't get enough sleep to make game-losing blunders. And that's not a criticism of the game, I mean even in BW, Flash was once knocked out of the OSL at the peak of his skill by Kal and Hyuk. SC2 and BW aren't games where good intellectual preparation is all you need to win.
In what tournament is he playing 30 out of the 32 Code S players? I'm really curious.
In the last 3 months, the only Code S players he has played against are Innovation and Symbol (Symbol isn't even in Code S anymore btw, he got 1-4ed out of his group in the RO32). He lost twice to Symbol and traded series 1-1 with Innovation. To find wins against actual Code S players you need to go back even further than that to Katowice where he beat Life, but lost to sOs. He got 4-0ed by Ragnarok in the King of Iron in March... I'm still trawling back to 2013 in order to find him actually beating Code S players (which was mostly Life and a BO3 against sOs at Dreamhack Winter 2013).
If you want to count the last few years of performance then sure, he probably has a positive record against some of those players but a quick look at Aligulac records demonstrates nicely that Taeja is not actually competing against Code S players very often and when he does, it doesn't go well for him on average.
For anyone else this wouldn't be a criticism but Taeja is heralded as one of the best Terrans in the world, and when he has that kind of praise behind him these kinds of criticisms are warranted.
He just does not compete against other GSL quality pros enough and he's good enough that he should.
It's not so much a criticism of Taeja as it is of the people that claim he is a tip-top Code S class Terran when there isn't really any recent evidence to support it. He obviously CAN be that quality, I mean he was back when he played Code S but that was a year ago. I would love to see him compete regularly against Code-S quality players.
On July 07 2014 06:07 Varroth wrote: Why do people keep using terms such as ''B-teamer'' and ''Taeja/MC/Jaedong/Bomber/San are not top koreans they would get demolished in code s'' You have Jaedong who beat Maru, Dear and other good players at the Global finals 7 ish months ago, and you've got Taeja who have won 10 premier titles sure not as ''prestigefull'' as a Code S win but saying they would get decimated in code s is just stupid. RorO and TY both considered at the time atleast top 10 of their race with TY perhaps even being considered top 3. RorO bombing out of the Ro32 and TY bombing out of Ro16 at Dreamhack Bucharest.
7months ago... that´s a long time. Right now, I don´t see any player in the other WCS regions competing at highisch Code S level. Yeah Taeja could get through Code A with a good draw. Yeah he might go through Ro32 with a good draw. But I doubt he would go a lot further. And results like this here just cement this point. He never won a tournament with a lot of high tier Code S representation. His MLG wins, his Dreamhack wins, his HSC wins. These are all very good results. But they all have one thing in common: low representation of high calibre code S players at that time. The fact that he never made a code S final is one thing. But he never even made it to a final at a weekend tournament with a lot of (high) code S players in it. He seems pretty content with making money at easier tournaments, so I doubt this is a problem for him. But pls don´t call him best terran in the world or something along those lines. I can´t stand this anymore
On July 07 2014 06:19 LightSpectra wrote: this enduring myth that Taeja's win rates are solely against Korean B-teamers and foreigners is preposterous to the max. He has a positive win ratio against something like 30 out of 32 of the players in last season's Code S.
The reason why he hasn't won any WCSs yet is because SC2 is so volatile. It only takes one scrappy series of build order losses to get eliminated, or one groggy day where you don't get enough sleep to make game-losing blunders. And that's not a criticism of the game, I mean even in BW, Flash was once knocked out of the OSL at the peak of his skill by Kal and Hyuk. SC2 and BW aren't games where good intellectual preparation is all you need to win.
In what tournament is he playing 30 out of the 32 Code S players? I'm really curious.
In the last 3 months, the only Code S players he has played against are Innovation and Symbol (Symbol isn't even in Code S anymore btw, he got 1-4ed out of his group in the RO32). He lost twice to Symbol and traded series 1-1 with Innovation. To find wins against actual Code S players you need to go back even further than that to Katowice where he beat Life, but lost to sOs. He got 4-0ed by Ragnarok in the King of Iron in March... I'm still trawling back to 2013 in order to find him actually beating Code S players (which was mostly Life and a BO3 against sOs at Dreamhack Winter 2013).
If you want to count the last few years of performance then sure, he probably has a positive record against some of those players but a quick look at Aligulac records demonstrates nicely that Taeja is not actually competing against Code S players very often and when he does, it doesn't go well for him on average.
For anyone else this wouldn't be a criticism but Taeja is heralded as one of the best Terrans in the world, and when he has that kind of praise behind him these kinds of criticisms are warranted.
He just does not compete against other GSL quality pros enough and he's good enough that he should.
It's not so much a criticism of Taeja as it is of the people that claim he is a tip-top Code S class Terran when there isn't really any recent evidence to support it. He obviously CAN be that quality, I mean he was back when he played Code S but that was a year ago. I would love to see him compete regularly against Code-S quality players.
Wouldn't something like "Code S Challenge" be a nice idea for a showmatch series, where the best players from foreign torunaments compete in bo7/9 against current Code S players ?. Taeja/Polt/Stardust/Jaedong etc. vs a Code S player like once a month, I would watch that so hard.
On July 07 2014 06:19 LightSpectra wrote: this enduring myth that Taeja's win rates are solely against Korean B-teamers and foreigners is preposterous to the max. He has a positive win ratio against something like 30 out of 32 of the players in last season's Code S.
The reason why he hasn't won any WCSs yet is because SC2 is so volatile. It only takes one scrappy series of build order losses to get eliminated, or one groggy day where you don't get enough sleep to make game-losing blunders. And that's not a criticism of the game, I mean even in BW, Flash was once knocked out of the OSL at the peak of his skill by Kal and Hyuk. SC2 and BW aren't games where good intellectual preparation is all you need to win.
In what tournament is he playing 30 out of the 32 Code S players? I'm really curious.
In the last 3 months, the only Code S players he has played against are Innovation and Symbol (Symbol isn't even in Code S anymore btw, he got 1-4ed out of his group in the RO32). He lost twice to Symbol and traded series 1-1 with Innovation. To find wins against actual Code S players you need to go back even further than that to Katowice where he beat Life, but lost to sOs. He got 4-0ed by Ragnarok in the King of Iron in March... I'm still trawling back to 2013 in order to find him actually beating Code S players (which was mostly Life and a BO3 against sOs at Dreamhack Winter 2013).
If you want to count the last few years of performance then sure, he probably has a positive record against some of those players but a quick look at Aligulac records demonstrates nicely that Taeja is not actually competing against Code S players very often and when he does, it doesn't go well for him on average.
For anyone else this wouldn't be a criticism but Taeja is heralded as one of the best Terrans in the world, and when he has that kind of praise behind him these kinds of criticisms are warranted.
He just does not compete against other GSL quality pros enough and he's good enough that he should.
It's not so much a criticism of Taeja as it is of the people that claim he is a tip-top Code S class Terran when there isn't really any recent evidence to support it. He obviously CAN be that quality, I mean he was back when he played Code S but that was a year ago. I would love to see him compete regularly against Code-S quality players.
Wouldn't something like "Code S Challenge" be a nice idea for a showmatch series, where the best players from foreign torunaments compete in bo7/9 against current Code S players ?. Taeja/Polt/Stardust/Jaedong etc. vs a Code S player like once a month, I would watch that so hard.
pigbaby played incredible against taeja. i didn't see any fan reactions, but i can infer that there was a lot of protoss amove BM, which saddens me. great upset, i don't understand why people hate upsets in SC2 so much
On July 07 2014 06:19 LightSpectra wrote: this enduring myth that Taeja's win rates are solely against Korean B-teamers and foreigners is preposterous to the max. He has a positive win ratio against something like 30 out of 32 of the players in last season's Code S.
The reason why he hasn't won any WCSs yet is because SC2 is so volatile. It only takes one scrappy series of build order losses to get eliminated, or one groggy day where you don't get enough sleep to make game-losing blunders. And that's not a criticism of the game, I mean even in BW, Flash was once knocked out of the OSL at the peak of his skill by Kal and Hyuk. SC2 and BW aren't games where good intellectual preparation is all you need to win.
In what tournament is he playing 30 out of the 32 Code S players? I'm really curious.
In the last 3 months, the only Code S players he has played against are Innovation and Symbol (Symbol isn't even in Code S anymore btw, he got 1-4ed out of his group in the RO32). He lost twice to Symbol and traded series 1-1 with Innovation. To find wins against actual Code S players you need to go back even further than that to Katowice where he beat Life, but lost to sOs. He got 4-0ed by Ragnarok in the King of Iron in March... I'm still trawling back to 2013 in order to find him actually beating Code S players (which was mostly Life and a BO3 against sOs at Dreamhack Winter 2013).
If you want to count the last few years of performance then sure, he probably has a positive record against some of those players but a quick look at Aligulac records demonstrates nicely that Taeja is not actually competing against Code S players very often and when he does, it doesn't go well for him on average.
For anyone else this wouldn't be a criticism but Taeja is heralded as one of the best Terrans in the world, and when he has that kind of praise behind him these kinds of criticisms are warranted.
He just does not compete against other GSL quality pros enough and he's good enough that he should.
It's not so much a criticism of Taeja as it is of the people that claim he is a tip-top Code S class Terran when there isn't really any recent evidence to support it. He obviously CAN be that quality, I mean he was back when he played Code S but that was a year ago. I would love to see him compete regularly against Code-S quality players.
Wouldn't something like "Code S Challenge" be a nice idea for a showmatch series, where the best players from foreign torunaments compete in bo7/9 against current Code S players ?. Taeja/Polt/Stardust/Jaedong etc. vs a Code S player like once a month, I would watch that so hard.
On July 07 2014 08:47 Waise wrote: pigbaby played incredible against taeja. i didn't see any fan reactions, but i can infer that there was a lot of protoss amove BM, which saddens me. great upset, i don't understand why people hate upsets in SC2 so much
Agreed^^
Just watched the VODs a few hours ago, Pigbaby played the player and he came out on top because of it.
It's simple, there hasn't been any 1st or 2nd tier Koean Protoss player in WCS AM until this season. At least in WCS EU has a number of them for many seasons. This makes players like Taeja, Polt or Bomber very untrained againts high level Korean protoss players. Especially with the skill level Protoss players are showing these days.
I could see it a mile away that Polt was going to have a hard time versus Trap on the MLG final. I though Taeja was different, but I was wrong.
That being said though, Scarlett once said at HSC Cup after beating Taeja in first series round that Taeja is really good when he's on form, much like a stimmed marine I think Taeja stim was finished for now.
The news is not so much Taeja lost - the true news is how Pigbaby played. I have never seen that style of play that Pigbaby used, I mean take a 3rd base and not take gas? As Protoss that is insane...
I see people saying he prepared for Taeja, yes that is true but he played a similar style against Heart too...it is just Pigbaby's style v T.
I mean not even Rain plays soooo safe. I play random - but I love Terran the most, but It is hard not admire that series played by Pigbaby. 7 Observer rush. LoL
even the amazing taeja fell for the unstoppable protoss force, RIP for our terrans. seriously though sad to see teaja fall so early on in the tournament. expected him to get at least to the semis. excited to see how pigbaby won those games, especially that comback vs bomber
He's terrific at farming money off of foreigners but when you put him against players at or above his tier and he doesn't look nearly as dominant.
You realize that he is behind Leenock and HerO in this regard so not exactly terrific.
Leenock and HerO are never specifically mentioned when people discuss who the best players of their given race are.
At some point they were, although they never were number 1 choice. However that doesn't matter because you said he is "terrific at farming money" while he is outfarmed by - for example - both Leenock and HerO.
On July 07 2014 06:19 LightSpectra wrote: this enduring myth that Taeja's win rates are solely against Korean B-teamers and foreigners is preposterous to the max. He has a positive win ratio against something like 30 out of 32 of the players in last season's Code S.
The reason why he hasn't won any WCSs yet is because SC2 is so volatile. It only takes one scrappy series of build order losses to get eliminated, or one groggy day where you don't get enough sleep to make game-losing blunders. And that's not a criticism of the game, I mean even in BW, Flash was once knocked out of the OSL at the peak of his skill by Kal and Hyuk. SC2 and BW aren't games where good intellectual preparation is all you need to win.
In what tournament is he playing 30 out of the 32 Code S players? I'm really curious.
In the last 3 months, the only Code S players he has played against are Innovation and Symbol (Symbol isn't even in Code S anymore btw, he got 1-4ed out of his group in the RO32). He lost twice to Symbol and traded series 1-1 with Innovation. To find wins against actual Code S players you need to go back even further than that to Katowice where he beat Life, but lost to sOs. He got 4-0ed by Ragnarok in the King of Iron in March... I'm still trawling back to 2013 in order to find him actually beating Code S players (which was mostly Life and a BO3 against sOs at Dreamhack Winter 2013).
If you want to count the last few years of performance then sure, he probably has a positive record against some of those players but a quick look at Aligulac records demonstrates nicely that Taeja is not actually competing against Code S players very often and when he does, it doesn't go well for him on average.
For anyone else this wouldn't be a criticism but Taeja is heralded as one of the best Terrans in the world, and when he has that kind of praise behind him these kinds of criticisms are warranted.
He just does not compete against other GSL quality pros enough and he's good enough that he should.
It's not so much a criticism of Taeja as it is of the people that claim he is a tip-top Code S class Terran when there isn't really any recent evidence to support it. He obviously CAN be that quality, I mean he was back when he played Code S but that was a year ago. I would love to see him compete regularly against Code-S quality players.
Wouldn't something like "Code S Challenge" be a nice idea for a showmatch series, where the best players from foreign torunaments compete in bo7/9 against current Code S players ?. Taeja/Polt/Stardust/Jaedong etc. vs a Code S player like once a month, I would watch that so hard.
It's a nice idea, but as has been discussed, the format will highly determine the performance of the players (weekend format = weekend warriors win; brackets known in advance format = Kespa wins). Which means you cannot draw conclusions on "are foreign-koreans Code S level or not?".
On July 07 2014 06:19 LightSpectra wrote: this enduring myth that Taeja's win rates are solely against Korean B-teamers and foreigners is preposterous to the max. He has a positive win ratio against something like 30 out of 32 of the players in last season's Code S.
The reason why he hasn't won any WCSs yet is because SC2 is so volatile. It only takes one scrappy series of build order losses to get eliminated, or one groggy day where you don't get enough sleep to make game-losing blunders. And that's not a criticism of the game, I mean even in BW, Flash was once knocked out of the OSL at the peak of his skill by Kal and Hyuk. SC2 and BW aren't games where good intellectual preparation is all you need to win.
The New Jersey Nets went 4-0 against the Miami Heat in the regular season then lost 1-4 in the playoffs. The only win came from them shooting insanely hot from 3-point range.
Some players are just better at more "regular season" type settings than in playoff settings. Just because somebody has a positive record against players in a regular season setting doesn't mean they will be as good in a playoff setting.
On July 07 2014 23:49 sharkie wrote: I don't understand...
Pigbaby won by building a lot of observers right? Why didn't Taeja just punish his lack of colossi?
Because observers are stronger than colossi. There was nothing to punish. That's today's lesson: build less colossi, Terran likes when you build colossi.
EPT![[image loading]](/staff/lichter/WCSAM/2014/season2/wcsambracket.jpg)
Heart made short work of 
viOLet in a 3-0 sweep. Although the series looked like it would most likely be fairly close on paper, Heart's TvZ prowess can no longer be denied. He never lost control in any of the games, and viOLet seemed unable to rattle Heart with standard ZvT or a roach heavy style.
Ax.Alicia by defeating the Axiom Protoss. Both players were at each other’s throats the entire time trying to punish every minor mistake. In the end, after all the bizarre strategies and shenanigans, Bomber emerged victorious and moved on to the semifinals. 
?. Taeja/Polt/Stardust/Jaedong etc. vs a Code S player like once a month, I would watch that so hard.
