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Thank you again Conti for putting the work into the post, the numbers and fact checking as always. I know there are plenty of people who don't like me, my stream, my content, or anything surrounding it. Honestly I would rarely watch my own stream, I prefer Mingun, Polt, Innovation, etc. I do enjoy streaming and talking with people who enjoy my stream, which is why I've done it for almost 3 years.
I don't deserve viewers more than Polt or Innovation, I don't have a higher level or skill or better content. Honestly all I have is brute force and an ability to talk for hours on end. Conti pointed out earlier some major viewer jumps in both December and April of these past few months.
December(jump from about 200 avg viewers to 500): I finished school for the semester about a week into December. From that point I streamed 233 hours that month(about 10 hours a day after the first week), only taking a day off for Christmas. This was a time when there were very few tournaments and no WCS, so a lot of the time I was able to be on the front page of starcraft twitch, and I was lucky enough to pick up a twitch partnership and also a subscriber button.
April(jump from about 600 to 1300 viewers): I went back to school for Winter semester, so I could not stream as much, as consistently or for the length of time that I did over December break. WCS, many tournaments and other things started back up again for the year, so I wasn't able to see any real growth besides subscribers/followers throughout.
2 things lined up again after. First, I finished school in mid April, and second I fixed my ISP issues. For over a year I had an issue with my ISP where it would go offline for 5-15 seconds at a time every 1-2 hours, taking the stream offline and usually 25-40% of my viewers with it. I finally was able to work out settings that would avoid most of these reconnects and instead of continually dropping and gaining viewers throughout the night I was able to build. Since I was off school again I streamed for 25 days in a row between mid april and early May, once again not with a huge display of skill or a tournament win, just lucky enough to be near the top of twitch and pick up some viewers that might for one reason or another be interested in other streams. On top of that I was featured on teamliquid near the very end of the month which helped a bit more as well.
This is what happened to increase my viewers. I stream in a way that allows me to stream for long periods of time, which is usually smurfing. I don't have the skill or stamina to play at my top level and commentate for the 8+ hours that I stream at, and I don't pretend to be competitive or an authority on strategy or the game. I have content that some people like to watch, and I like interacting with those people. There is a base out there of people just looking for someone to talk about the game, without a regard to being a top pro, which is what makes people like Totalbiscuit so entertaining. I listened to WCRadio shows about lore and dungeons even though I was exclusively a competitive PvP player back in World of Warcraft because people talking is entertaining.
As for social media metrics which has been pointed out before, I just recently became anywhere close to active. My facebook only has 1700likes, my twitter only 1600. Another point here, I lost access to my previous twitter account(email issues) @WinterStarcraft last year when I had around 500 followers. That twitter account now has almost 450 more followers(with 0 tweets since September), while the twitter account I created in December to replace it @StarcraftWinter has 1600. My youtube channel has gained over 2500 subscibers in the past 2 months while being under 2000 for almost 2
years. I probably could do more with social media but honestly I've never really been involved.
As for the claims of viewbots, yes they have happened on my stream just like other streams all across twitch. I stream for more than most streamers as I'm able to commit so much time, so I am stuck with them proportionally more often. As for on a regular basis, I have doubled my subscriber count from 250-500 in the past 6-8 weeks along with a nearly equal increase in donations and follows as well. If all of these things are botted that would be extremely demoralizing, just like being repeatedly accused of it.
I don't feel entitled to viewers, I don't even really find my own content particularly entertaining or educational. All I do is produce enough of that content on a regular basis that enough people seemed to be interested in to allow me to comfortably make it a full time career. Viewbots don't pay my bills, I dont run ads on my stream. If you don't enjoy my content, I understand. If you don't like me, I definitely understand that as well. Please don't feel obligated to defend me if you enjoy the stream, constructive criticism is always preferred. Thanks for reading. Also sorry Conti for hijacking your thread.
TL;DR: I just sit at home and talk at internet people a lot.
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the comments on this thread...  no one should attack winter, hes put alot of hours into building a solid interactive stream. if there is some viewbotting program out there, then it wouldnt be solely affecting winter, hundreds of other streams could be fraudulent. if you seriously believe there is foul play, you should be trying to contact twitch and asking for stream viewer data and demands should be made for them to fix it.
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Twitch is (possibly) on the verge of being bought by Google on the basis of their numbers, I doubt they have any great desire to release them just because some channels are being saturated with viewbots
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I completely understand people wanting to watch someone troll at a reasonable level (see: Dragon). It's fun watching someone do something silly and actually have a great time, especially with viewer interaction. But averaging significantly more viewers than the winningest player of all time? If all of Winter's viewers are real people, this game is doomed.
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On June 02 2014 06:35 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 06:09 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:59 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:45 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:
My problem is that some "famous and important" figureheads of the community act like it is 100% confirmed that he isn't legit.
I can understand that people find it somewhat suspicious, but this "witch-hunt" looks very bad imo.
You can think about his content what you want (only smurfs, blabla), but he produces A LOT of content and people seem to enjoy what he is doing. If the already established people get jealous and spread rumors it is imo pretty sad, get your shit together and produce content people enjoy yourself! (that part isn't about you TB, but other streamers who are vocal about him too) It is 99% confirmed that some of his views are not legit. It is not confirmed that this is his own doing. He obviously has a fanbase, it's just not as big as these stats indicate. His recent questionable claims that he was the "#1 viewed Starcraft streamer" in his ill-fated AMA have served to only compound the problem. then pls link the data, all i saw is a reddit article that literally said his stream isn't more suspicious than any other streamer you can find. The data is my eyes and knowing how streaming works. So basically no data, ty http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/257n93/hi_im_wintersc_currently_the_1_sc2_streamer_i_am/chei0klOther than him admitting it? No I do not have access to the impossible to access data, shockingly enough. So what exactly does this prove? You and others make it look like he is not legit at all. That is where my problem with this bs starts, it is basically a witch-hunt cause the big boys don't have his numbers and get mad about it. Streams get botted, this is nothing new and not exclusive to Winter, so what exactly is your point? I could probably say exactly the same about 4 random other streams on that list. Does he get botted? Probably from time to time like many other streams out there. The interesting part isn't IF someone gets botted, but how substantial the botting is, as long as nobody shows any data with evidence that his numbers are WAY exaggerated, i don't see any point in this whole discussion really... But hey it is obviously easier to be a douchebag about this whole situation because you don't like his growth. And to add something usefull: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/26cnst/sc2_streams_and_viewbots_the_numbers/ Could you stop pretending that I am somehow jealous of Winters numbers? The last SC2 ladder stream I did I was above 10k concurrent. I have nothing to be jealous of. It's definitely easy to see where some of his fans get their obnoxious attitudes from though. Smurfing against gold leaguers in the name of "education" and then being smarmy about it is the reason some people don't like him, it has nothing to do with some imaginary "old boys club" being jealous of the newcomer.
That is easily the most jealous, stuck up post I've ever seen. How about you get down off your cross, cry me a river then use the wood to build a bridge and get over it.
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It's a little disgusting how most people are reacting to Winter's numbers because of his non-pro status. If you are too pretentious to watch an amateur's stream then so be it, but don't act like it's bad for the SC2 scene. He provides an entertaining stream for viewers like me who don't play SC2 anymore and were never that great to begin with.
If you watch his stream for a few minutes you'd see his passion for the game is unmatched. He's the type of player that SC2 needs to keep going.
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On June 02 2014 14:35 WrexSC2 wrote:
It's a little disgusting how most people are reacting to Winter's numbers because of his non-pro status. If you are too pretentious to watch an amateur's stream then so be it, but don't act like it's bad for the SC2 scene. He provides an entertaining stream for viewers like me who don't play SC2 anymore and were never that great to begin with.
If you watch his stream for a few minutes you'd see his passion for the game is unmatched. He's the type of player that SC2 needs to keep going.
It has nothing to do with being pro or not pro. What Winter does is unethical and as TB pointed out cheating. He just sits there all day on brand new accounts cheesing nubies. Who knows how many accounts he has boosted over the past year. What he does is delegitimizing the ladder and providing a bad example to the community.
It's ironic that his stream is titled "learn to play sc2." What can you possibly hope to learn from watching a high master player cheese a gold leaguer? Those cheeses wouldn't have nearly as much chance of success vs someone of his level. It's like watching Gary Kasparov beat a novice in Chess. Not to mention, the way he talks shit to his opponents (not in game, but on stream) makes me sick.
Over the last few months I noticed his viewer count went up about 6 times. I figure people like to live vicariously through his wins (since I imagine he never loses). I was one of the first people to give him love when he was a legit master random and I wouldn't falsely accuse him without evidence, but I can't say I like what he does.
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On June 02 2014 15:27 TRaFFiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 14:35 WrexSC2 wrote:
It's a little disgusting how most people are reacting to Winter's numbers because of his non-pro status. If you are too pretentious to watch an amateur's stream then so be it, but don't act like it's bad for the SC2 scene. He provides an entertaining stream for viewers like me who don't play SC2 anymore and were never that great to begin with.
If you watch his stream for a few minutes you'd see his passion for the game is unmatched. He's the type of player that SC2 needs to keep going. It has nothing to do with being pro or not pro. What Winter does is unethical and as TB pointed out cheating. He just sits there all day on brand new accounts cheesing nubies. Who knows how many accounts he has boosted over the past year. What he does is delegitimizing the ladder and providing a bad example to the community. It's ironic that his stream is titled "learn to play sc2." What can you possibly hope to learn from watching a high master player cheese a gold leaguer? Those cheeses wouldn't have nearly as much chance of success vs someone of his level. It's like watching Gary Kasparov beat a novice in Chess. Not to mention, the way he talks shit to his opponents (not in game, but on stream) makes me sick. Over the last few months I noticed his viewer count went up about 6 times. I figure people like to live vicariously through his wins (since I imagine he never loses). I was one of the first people to give him love when he was a legit master random and I wouldn't falsely accuse him without evidence, but I can't say I like what he does.
I randomly tuned in twice, each time it looked like it was some comp stomping with bm commentary. Not entertaining at all, surprised people gave him any money.
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On June 02 2014 14:35 WrexSC2 wrote:
It's a little disgusting how most people are reacting to Winter's numbers because of his non-pro status. If you are too pretentious to watch an amateur's stream then so be it, but don't act like it's bad for the SC2 scene. He provides an entertaining stream for viewers like me who don't play SC2 anymore and were never that great to begin with.
If you watch his stream for a few minutes you'd see his passion for the game is unmatched. He's the type of player that SC2 needs to keep going.
I just threw up in my mouth.
WinterStarcraft wrote:
I don't have the skill or stamina to play at my top level and commentate for the 8+ hours that I stream at, and I don't pretend to be competitive or an authority on strategy or the game.
WinterStarcraft wrote:
I don't feel entitled to viewers, I don't even really find my own content particularly entertaining or educational. All I do is produce enough of that content on a regular basis that enough people seemed to be interested in to allow me to comfortably make it a full time career.
Meanwhile..
Despite suffering from Crohn's Disease and crippling anxiety/depression, Minigun continues to pursue professional SC2. And despite the huge amount of support he's gotten after he made his health concerns public on TL, he struggles to maintain 1/4th Winter's viewership. But he's still going.
TB owns and manages a professional SC2 team and produces ungodly amounts of content for SC2 while juggling his other YouTube ventures. He'd probably make a LOT more money if he kicked SC2 to the curb and focused 100% on aliev gaems. Still, not long after being diagnosed with bowel cancer, he announces The Sandisk SHOUTcraft Invitational.
[I'm just going to stop here. There are a lot of passionate people in this scene and these two were mentioned in this thread.]
But hey, there's this kid named Winter who wouldn't mind playing video games and talking to people for a living. What a hero. Please, tell me more about passion.
Look, Winter seems like a decent guy. I don't actually doubt his love for SC2. After all, it's made him moderately famous without having to commit a whole lot (aside from his time, which he seems to thoroughly enjoy).
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TB, honestly you are just wasting your time arguing with people that enjoy Winter's Stream. I never heard of him before and his viewer numbers seem kinda odd though I have watched his stream once because of the viewer numbers. His fans like any other fan of other streamers, they will defend when they want.
I think some of his views can be attributed to golden league trolling aka (old trolly destiny) and that he is a terran player.
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On June 02 2014 16:36 KlinKz wrote:
and that he is a terran player.
Random*
I'm just sad that I emailed winter once about some music and he never replied. :'(
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On June 02 2014 08:55 WinterStarcraft wrote:
TL;DR: I just sit at home and talk at internet people a lot.
TL;DR: Handwaving.
You'd be better off playing *really* dumb, not just unawares. Sorry, but you dish way too much marketing vocab here and on Reddit for me to not believe that your stream's popularity was earned in some underhanded way.
I hope at some point we get a [G] How to get featured on TL 
Edited to snip quote.
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We´re three years into streaming SC2 and yet most pro´s don´t care to commentate or interact with fans. No wonder people go to other, more entertaining streams like WinterStarcarft.
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Do these numbers include dailymotion and goodgame.ru? I assume they do, but some streams on these platforms get a few thousand views I've noticed and I'm just asking to make sure.
On June 02 2014 15:42 aka_star wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 15:27 TRaFFiC wrote:On June 02 2014 14:35 WrexSC2 wrote:
It's a little disgusting how most people are reacting to Winter's numbers because of his non-pro status. If you are too pretentious to watch an amateur's stream then so be it, but don't act like it's bad for the SC2 scene. He provides an entertaining stream for viewers like me who don't play SC2 anymore and were never that great to begin with.
If you watch his stream for a few minutes you'd see his passion for the game is unmatched. He's the type of player that SC2 needs to keep going. It has nothing to do with being pro or not pro. What Winter does is unethical and as TB pointed out cheating. He just sits there all day on brand new accounts cheesing nubies. Who knows how many accounts he has boosted over the past year. What he does is delegitimizing the ladder and providing a bad example to the community. It's ironic that his stream is titled "learn to play sc2." What can you possibly hope to learn from watching a high master player cheese a gold leaguer? Those cheeses wouldn't have nearly as much chance of success vs someone of his level. It's like watching Gary Kasparov beat a novice in Chess. Not to mention, the way he talks shit to his opponents (not in game, but on stream) makes me sick. Over the last few months I noticed his viewer count went up about 6 times. I figure people like to live vicariously through his wins (since I imagine he never loses). I was one of the first people to give him love when he was a legit master random and I wouldn't falsely accuse him without evidence, but I can't say I like what he does. I randomly tuned in twice, each time it looked like it was some comp stomping with bm commentary. Not entertaining at all, surprised people gave him any money.
I feel the same way. I've tuned in a few times willing to give him a chance, but tuned out again very soon, no idea why so many people like him. But then again, I felt exactly the same way about IdrA and lots of people seemed to like him as well...
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so guys. Can you think for a second please? I don't know if Winter ever viewbotted. I think he was being viewbotted. But now?
Take a look around. Go on starcraft, in a group channel; on forums or on a twitch stream and ask around.
Basically everyone you will ask nowadays will probably know of Winter, right?
So even IF people hate him, the viewer numbers don't actually surprise me
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You may like Winter's stream or not, I for example don't like the constant smurfing and the attitude sometimes, but what you can't deny is that the format is appealing to alot of people (playing random, non stop commentating). Don't forget that a large part of the 1v1 playerbase is bellow Diamond, and not mentioning the music that is popular today.
Comparing for example LiquidHero, that sure he is one of the best players on the planet with an entertaining playstyle and a magician touch in micro, but he doesn't commentate (I understand it's a language barrier but still) interacts with viewers, listens to mostly Kpop that less people like, even dissapearing for random periods with a random replay playing in the background, and he is very popular relative to most Korean pros.
All I'm saying is that the quality of play is not the only thing that matters here, the presentation is also important here.
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In theory I think it's fine. Non-pro players can still entertain viewers by... well... being entertaining, whereas pro-players can focus more on providing entertainment from their competition-play.
If someone is viewbotting, then they should be punished for it, but whether or not you like someone is really irrelevant to how popular they should be able to be.
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On June 02 2014 19:04 bartus88 wrote:
Do these numbers include dailymotion and goodgame.ru? I assume they do, but some streams on these platforms get a few thousand views I've noticed and I'm just asking to make sure.
The numbers include all streams that are listed here on teamliquid.net, which do include streams from dailymotion and goodgame.ru, yes. I'm fairly certain they include all notable SC2 streams from those streaming services.
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On June 02 2014 20:21 jtype wrote:
In theory I think it's fine. Non-pro players can still entertain viewers by... well... being entertaining, whereas pro-players can focus more on providing entertainment from their competition-play.
Why not both pro-players and entertainers? There is a reason why every time MC (way too little times) streams the community goes bonkers, he is an amazing player, he plays random, he is a really funny guy, he does some hilarious blunt commentary with broken English. More streamers like him and the community would have been more alive I think.
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On June 02 2014 20:35 ApocAlypsE007 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 20:21 jtype wrote:
In theory I think it's fine. Non-pro players can still entertain viewers by... well... being entertaining, whereas pro-players can focus more on providing entertainment from their competition-play.
Why not both pro-players and entertainers? There is a reason why every time MC (way too little times) streams the community goes bonkers, he is an amazing player, he plays random, he is a really funny guy, he does some hilarious blunt commentary with broken English. More streamers like him and the community would have been more alive I think.
Yea of course when a player can provide both then that's great, but I think there should be room for people at either end of the spectrum.
I mean, personally, I prefer to watch high-level players that don't talk all that much, so I can have the stream muted and listen to my own music and whatnot.
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EPT
