|
On June 02 2014 06:09 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 05:59 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:45 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:
My problem is that some "famous and important" figureheads of the community act like it is 100% confirmed that he isn't legit.
I can understand that people find it somewhat suspicious, but this "witch-hunt" looks very bad imo.
You can think about his content what you want (only smurfs, blabla), but he produces A LOT of content and people seem to enjoy what he is doing. If the already established people get jealous and spread rumors it is imo pretty sad, get your shit together and produce content people enjoy yourself! (that part isn't about you TB, but other streamers who are vocal about him too) It is 99% confirmed that some of his views are not legit. It is not confirmed that this is his own doing. He obviously has a fanbase, it's just not as big as these stats indicate. His recent questionable claims that he was the "#1 viewed Starcraft streamer" in his ill-fated AMA have served to only compound the problem. then pls link the data, all i saw is a reddit article that literally said his stream isn't more suspicious than any other streamer you can find. The data is my eyes and knowing how streaming works. So basically no data, ty http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/257n93/hi_im_wintersc_currently_the_1_sc2_streamer_i_am/chei0klOther than him admitting it? No I do not have access to the impossible to access data, shockingly enough. So what exactly does this prove? You and others make it look like he is not legit at all. That is where my problem with this bs starts, it is basically a witch-hunt cause the big boys don't have his numbers and get mad about it. Streams get botted, this is nothing new and not exclusive to Winter, so what exactly is your point? I could probably say exactly the same about 4 random other streams on that list. Does he get botted? Probably from time to time like many other streams out there. The interesting part isn't IF someone gets botted, but how substantial the botting is, as long as nobody shows any data with evidence that his numbers are WAY exaggerated, i don't see any point in this whole discussion really... But hey it is obviously easier to be a douchebag about this whole situation because you don't like his growth. And to add something usefull: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/26cnst/sc2_streams_and_viewbots_the_numbers/
Could you stop pretending that I am somehow jealous of Winters numbers? The last SC2 ladder stream I did I was above 10k concurrent. I have nothing to be jealous of. It's definitely easy to see where some of his fans get their obnoxious attitudes from though. Smurfing against gold leaguers in the name of "education" and then being smarmy about it is the reason some people don't like him, it has nothing to do with some imaginary "old boys club" being jealous of the newcomer.
|
On June 02 2014 06:35 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 06:09 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:59 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:45 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:
My problem is that some "famous and important" figureheads of the community act like it is 100% confirmed that he isn't legit.
I can understand that people find it somewhat suspicious, but this "witch-hunt" looks very bad imo.
You can think about his content what you want (only smurfs, blabla), but he produces A LOT of content and people seem to enjoy what he is doing. If the already established people get jealous and spread rumors it is imo pretty sad, get your shit together and produce content people enjoy yourself! (that part isn't about you TB, but other streamers who are vocal about him too) It is 99% confirmed that some of his views are not legit. It is not confirmed that this is his own doing. He obviously has a fanbase, it's just not as big as these stats indicate. His recent questionable claims that he was the "#1 viewed Starcraft streamer" in his ill-fated AMA have served to only compound the problem. then pls link the data, all i saw is a reddit article that literally said his stream isn't more suspicious than any other streamer you can find. The data is my eyes and knowing how streaming works. So basically no data, ty http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/257n93/hi_im_wintersc_currently_the_1_sc2_streamer_i_am/chei0klOther than him admitting it? No I do not have access to the impossible to access data, shockingly enough. So what exactly does this prove? You and others make it look like he is not legit at all. That is where my problem with this bs starts, it is basically a witch-hunt cause the big boys don't have his numbers and get mad about it. Streams get botted, this is nothing new and not exclusive to Winter, so what exactly is your point? I could probably say exactly the same about 4 random other streams on that list. Does he get botted? Probably from time to time like many other streams out there. The interesting part isn't IF someone gets botted, but how substantial the botting is, as long as nobody shows any data with evidence that his numbers are WAY exaggerated, i don't see any point in this whole discussion really... But hey it is obviously easier to be a douchebag about this whole situation because you don't like his growth. And to add something usefull: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/26cnst/sc2_streams_and_viewbots_the_numbers/ Could you stop pretending that I am somehow jealous of Winters numbers? The last SC2 ladder stream I did I was above 10k concurrent. I have nothing to be jealous of. It's definitely easy to see where some of his fans get their obnoxious attitudes from though. Beating up gold leaguers in the name of "education" and then being smarmy about it is the reason some people don't like him, it has nothing to do with some imaginary "old boys club" being jealous of the newcomer.
And your comments here show that you really don't watch his stream and feel justified in being smarmy yourself based on nothing but your own smugness. He starts every stream playing his masters account for at least an hour or two (usually 10-15 games) then switches. But hey, you clearly haven't given any thought before making a judgement on someone else, then again, that's pretty much the foundation of your career.
|
On June 02 2014 06:35 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 06:09 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:59 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:45 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:
My problem is that some "famous and important" figureheads of the community act like it is 100% confirmed that he isn't legit.
I can understand that people find it somewhat suspicious, but this "witch-hunt" looks very bad imo.
You can think about his content what you want (only smurfs, blabla), but he produces A LOT of content and people seem to enjoy what he is doing. If the already established people get jealous and spread rumors it is imo pretty sad, get your shit together and produce content people enjoy yourself! (that part isn't about you TB, but other streamers who are vocal about him too) It is 99% confirmed that some of his views are not legit. It is not confirmed that this is his own doing. He obviously has a fanbase, it's just not as big as these stats indicate. His recent questionable claims that he was the "#1 viewed Starcraft streamer" in his ill-fated AMA have served to only compound the problem. then pls link the data, all i saw is a reddit article that literally said his stream isn't more suspicious than any other streamer you can find. The data is my eyes and knowing how streaming works. So basically no data, ty http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/257n93/hi_im_wintersc_currently_the_1_sc2_streamer_i_am/chei0klOther than him admitting it? No I do not have access to the impossible to access data, shockingly enough. So what exactly does this prove? You and others make it look like he is not legit at all. That is where my problem with this bs starts, it is basically a witch-hunt cause the big boys don't have his numbers and get mad about it. Streams get botted, this is nothing new and not exclusive to Winter, so what exactly is your point? I could probably say exactly the same about 4 random other streams on that list. Does he get botted? Probably from time to time like many other streams out there. The interesting part isn't IF someone gets botted, but how substantial the botting is, as long as nobody shows any data with evidence that his numbers are WAY exaggerated, i don't see any point in this whole discussion really... But hey it is obviously easier to be a douchebag about this whole situation because you don't like his growth. And to add something usefull: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/26cnst/sc2_streams_and_viewbots_the_numbers/ Could you stop pretending that I am somehow jealous of Winters numbers? The last SC2 ladder stream I did I was above 10k concurrent. I have nothing to be jealous of. It's definitely easy to see where some of his fans get their obnoxious attitudes from though. Smurfing against gold leaguers in the name of "education" and then being smarmy about it is the reason some people don't like him, it has nothing to do with some imaginary "old boys club" being jealous of the newcomer.
As i said in a comment before, this part isn't so much about you, i have no idea why you would also jump on the hate train, but apparently you do.
|
On June 02 2014 06:41 Andelas wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 06:35 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 06:09 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:59 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:45 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:
My problem is that some "famous and important" figureheads of the community act like it is 100% confirmed that he isn't legit.
I can understand that people find it somewhat suspicious, but this "witch-hunt" looks very bad imo.
You can think about his content what you want (only smurfs, blabla), but he produces A LOT of content and people seem to enjoy what he is doing. If the already established people get jealous and spread rumors it is imo pretty sad, get your shit together and produce content people enjoy yourself! (that part isn't about you TB, but other streamers who are vocal about him too) It is 99% confirmed that some of his views are not legit. It is not confirmed that this is his own doing. He obviously has a fanbase, it's just not as big as these stats indicate. His recent questionable claims that he was the "#1 viewed Starcraft streamer" in his ill-fated AMA have served to only compound the problem. then pls link the data, all i saw is a reddit article that literally said his stream isn't more suspicious than any other streamer you can find. The data is my eyes and knowing how streaming works. So basically no data, ty http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/257n93/hi_im_wintersc_currently_the_1_sc2_streamer_i_am/chei0klOther than him admitting it? No I do not have access to the impossible to access data, shockingly enough. So what exactly does this prove? You and others make it look like he is not legit at all. That is where my problem with this bs starts, it is basically a witch-hunt cause the big boys don't have his numbers and get mad about it. Streams get botted, this is nothing new and not exclusive to Winter, so what exactly is your point? I could probably say exactly the same about 4 random other streams on that list. Does he get botted? Probably from time to time like many other streams out there. The interesting part isn't IF someone gets botted, but how substantial the botting is, as long as nobody shows any data with evidence that his numbers are WAY exaggerated, i don't see any point in this whole discussion really... But hey it is obviously easier to be a douchebag about this whole situation because you don't like his growth. And to add something usefull: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/26cnst/sc2_streams_and_viewbots_the_numbers/ Could you stop pretending that I am somehow jealous of Winters numbers? The last SC2 ladder stream I did I was above 10k concurrent. I have nothing to be jealous of. It's definitely easy to see where some of his fans get their obnoxious attitudes from though. Beating up gold leaguers in the name of "education" and then being smarmy about it is the reason some people don't like him, it has nothing to do with some imaginary "old boys club" being jealous of the newcomer. And your comments here show that you really don't watch his stream and feel justified in being smarmy yourself based on nothing but your own smugness. He starts every stream playing his masters account for at least an hour or two (usually 10-15 games) then switches. But hey, you clearly haven't given any thought before making a judgement on someone else, then again, that's pretty much the foundation of your career.
Your honour I rest my case, I think we have proven beyond a doubt that Winters fanbois are insufferable toxic nitwits.
i have no idea why you would aslo jump on the hate train, but apparently you do.
Ahh yes the good old "hate train". Everyone who criticizes this guy has gotta be a "hater". It's a childish way of approaching things and completely dismissive of criticism.
No sorry, you'll have to accept that there are good reasons for not liking your favourite streamer and that going out and attacking those that don't only makes him and his fans look worse.
|
I must admit I never heard of WinterSC before he was featured on TL. Him pulling that much viewers is kind of odd, but still, since there aren't much streamer at that time, and people are looking for entertainment, so they may as well look at his stream, even if he's not really good at the game.
|
On June 02 2014 06:42 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 06:41 Andelas wrote:On June 02 2014 06:35 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 06:09 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:59 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:45 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:
My problem is that some "famous and important" figureheads of the community act like it is 100% confirmed that he isn't legit.
I can understand that people find it somewhat suspicious, but this "witch-hunt" looks very bad imo.
You can think about his content what you want (only smurfs, blabla), but he produces A LOT of content and people seem to enjoy what he is doing. If the already established people get jealous and spread rumors it is imo pretty sad, get your shit together and produce content people enjoy yourself! (that part isn't about you TB, but other streamers who are vocal about him too) It is 99% confirmed that some of his views are not legit. It is not confirmed that this is his own doing. He obviously has a fanbase, it's just not as big as these stats indicate. His recent questionable claims that he was the "#1 viewed Starcraft streamer" in his ill-fated AMA have served to only compound the problem. then pls link the data, all i saw is a reddit article that literally said his stream isn't more suspicious than any other streamer you can find. The data is my eyes and knowing how streaming works. So basically no data, ty http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/257n93/hi_im_wintersc_currently_the_1_sc2_streamer_i_am/chei0klOther than him admitting it? No I do not have access to the impossible to access data, shockingly enough. So what exactly does this prove? You and others make it look like he is not legit at all. That is where my problem with this bs starts, it is basically a witch-hunt cause the big boys don't have his numbers and get mad about it. Streams get botted, this is nothing new and not exclusive to Winter, so what exactly is your point? I could probably say exactly the same about 4 random other streams on that list. Does he get botted? Probably from time to time like many other streams out there. The interesting part isn't IF someone gets botted, but how substantial the botting is, as long as nobody shows any data with evidence that his numbers are WAY exaggerated, i don't see any point in this whole discussion really... But hey it is obviously easier to be a douchebag about this whole situation because you don't like his growth. And to add something usefull: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/26cnst/sc2_streams_and_viewbots_the_numbers/ Could you stop pretending that I am somehow jealous of Winters numbers? The last SC2 ladder stream I did I was above 10k concurrent. I have nothing to be jealous of. It's definitely easy to see where some of his fans get their obnoxious attitudes from though. Beating up gold leaguers in the name of "education" and then being smarmy about it is the reason some people don't like him, it has nothing to do with some imaginary "old boys club" being jealous of the newcomer. And your comments here show that you really don't watch his stream and feel justified in being smarmy yourself based on nothing but your own smugness. He starts every stream playing his masters account for at least an hour or two (usually 10-15 games) then switches. But hey, you clearly haven't given any thought before making a judgement on someone else, then again, that's pretty much the foundation of your career. Your honour I rest my case, I think we have proven beyond a doubt that Winters fanbois are insufferable toxic nitwits.
You came here to discredit someone you clearly hardly ever watch. If it's not jealousy, it's ineptitude. You have no data to back up your feelings, yet you said it's not up for discussion anymore. You like to act like you're the arbiter of truths, but have nothing to back yourself up, then complain when others call you out on it.
|
On June 02 2014 06:45 Andelas wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 06:42 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 06:41 Andelas wrote:On June 02 2014 06:35 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 06:09 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:59 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:45 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:
[quote]
It is 99% confirmed that some of his views are not legit. It is not confirmed that this is his own doing. He obviously has a fanbase, it's just not as big as these stats indicate. His recent questionable claims that he was the "#1 viewed Starcraft streamer" in his ill-fated AMA have served to only compound the problem. then pls link the data, all i saw is a reddit article that literally said his stream isn't more suspicious than any other streamer you can find. The data is my eyes and knowing how streaming works. So basically no data, ty http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/257n93/hi_im_wintersc_currently_the_1_sc2_streamer_i_am/chei0klOther than him admitting it? No I do not have access to the impossible to access data, shockingly enough. So what exactly does this prove? You and others make it look like he is not legit at all. That is where my problem with this bs starts, it is basically a witch-hunt cause the big boys don't have his numbers and get mad about it. Streams get botted, this is nothing new and not exclusive to Winter, so what exactly is your point? I could probably say exactly the same about 4 random other streams on that list. Does he get botted? Probably from time to time like many other streams out there. The interesting part isn't IF someone gets botted, but how substantial the botting is, as long as nobody shows any data with evidence that his numbers are WAY exaggerated, i don't see any point in this whole discussion really... But hey it is obviously easier to be a douchebag about this whole situation because you don't like his growth. And to add something usefull: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/26cnst/sc2_streams_and_viewbots_the_numbers/ Could you stop pretending that I am somehow jealous of Winters numbers? The last SC2 ladder stream I did I was above 10k concurrent. I have nothing to be jealous of. It's definitely easy to see where some of his fans get their obnoxious attitudes from though. Beating up gold leaguers in the name of "education" and then being smarmy about it is the reason some people don't like him, it has nothing to do with some imaginary "old boys club" being jealous of the newcomer. And your comments here show that you really don't watch his stream and feel justified in being smarmy yourself based on nothing but your own smugness. He starts every stream playing his masters account for at least an hour or two (usually 10-15 games) then switches. But hey, you clearly haven't given any thought before making a judgement on someone else, then again, that's pretty much the foundation of your career. Your honour I rest my case, I think we have proven beyond a doubt that Winters fanbois are insufferable toxic nitwits. You came here to discredit someone you clearly hardly ever watch. If it's not jealousy, it's ineptitude. You have no data to back up your feelings, yet you said it's not up for discussion anymore. You like to act like you're the arbiter of truths, but have nothing to back yourself up, then complain when others call you out on it.
Why would I watch someone I don't like? I'm not a fan of drinking my own piss either, are you going to call me out on the lack of hours I've put into that too? I've seen enough of him gloating or being unnecessarily critical as he smurfs against people far below his level for a living, to know that I dislike his methods. I do not need to clock 200 hours of stream watching to come to that conclusion. I also know that he has boosted accounts of others, which is against the ToS and messes with the integrity of the ladder, yet there have been no consequences to these actions. Smurfing professionally is not something that should be applauded.
The fact that he was viewbotted (note fact) is not up for discussion, since has admitted it. As a result the numbers in the OP are in question. Arguing semantics with me won't get you anywhere. I don't act like an arbiter of truths, I act as a very experienced streamer that sees those numbers as inflated based on 5 years of streaming experience and the admission of the streamer that viewbotting has occurred, though as to how much remains to be seen.
Tell me again how your "call out" is anything more than fanbois getting rustled?
|
On June 02 2014 06:42 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 06:41 Andelas wrote:On June 02 2014 06:35 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 06:09 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:59 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:45 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:
My problem is that some "famous and important" figureheads of the community act like it is 100% confirmed that he isn't legit.
I can understand that people find it somewhat suspicious, but this "witch-hunt" looks very bad imo.
You can think about his content what you want (only smurfs, blabla), but he produces A LOT of content and people seem to enjoy what he is doing. If the already established people get jealous and spread rumors it is imo pretty sad, get your shit together and produce content people enjoy yourself! (that part isn't about you TB, but other streamers who are vocal about him too) It is 99% confirmed that some of his views are not legit. It is not confirmed that this is his own doing. He obviously has a fanbase, it's just not as big as these stats indicate. His recent questionable claims that he was the "#1 viewed Starcraft streamer" in his ill-fated AMA have served to only compound the problem. then pls link the data, all i saw is a reddit article that literally said his stream isn't more suspicious than any other streamer you can find. The data is my eyes and knowing how streaming works. So basically no data, ty http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/257n93/hi_im_wintersc_currently_the_1_sc2_streamer_i_am/chei0klOther than him admitting it? No I do not have access to the impossible to access data, shockingly enough. So what exactly does this prove? You and others make it look like he is not legit at all. That is where my problem with this bs starts, it is basically a witch-hunt cause the big boys don't have his numbers and get mad about it. Streams get botted, this is nothing new and not exclusive to Winter, so what exactly is your point? I could probably say exactly the same about 4 random other streams on that list. Does he get botted? Probably from time to time like many other streams out there. The interesting part isn't IF someone gets botted, but how substantial the botting is, as long as nobody shows any data with evidence that his numbers are WAY exaggerated, i don't see any point in this whole discussion really... But hey it is obviously easier to be a douchebag about this whole situation because you don't like his growth. And to add something usefull: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/26cnst/sc2_streams_and_viewbots_the_numbers/ Could you stop pretending that I am somehow jealous of Winters numbers? The last SC2 ladder stream I did I was above 10k concurrent. I have nothing to be jealous of. It's definitely easy to see where some of his fans get their obnoxious attitudes from though. Beating up gold leaguers in the name of "education" and then being smarmy about it is the reason some people don't like him, it has nothing to do with some imaginary "old boys club" being jealous of the newcomer. And your comments here show that you really don't watch his stream and feel justified in being smarmy yourself based on nothing but your own smugness. He starts every stream playing his masters account for at least an hour or two (usually 10-15 games) then switches. But hey, you clearly haven't given any thought before making a judgement on someone else, then again, that's pretty much the foundation of your career. Your honour I rest my case, I think we have proven beyond a doubt that Winters fanbois are insufferable toxic nitwits. Show nested quote +i have no idea why you would aslo jump on the hate train, but apparently you do. Ahh yes the good old "hate train". Everyone who criticizes this guy has gotta be a "hater". It's a childish way of approaching things and completely dismissive of criticism. No sorry, you'll have to accept that there are good reasons for not liking your favourite streamer and that going out and attacking those that don't only makes him and his fans look worse.
I have no problem with criticism for "my favorite" streamer, i can understand why people think that way, even though i don't agree with them. My problem starts when people like you (with a big following and HUGE influence on the community) start to "witch-hunt" somebody based on rumors, data collected by "your eyes" and other nonsense.
If you feel he doesn't deserve the viewers he gets, ok that is a reasonable point for discussion, when you blatantly try to dismiss the success he had to work for for a very long time, i just think it is pretty retarded and somewhat jealous(we all know sc2 doesn't really grow) (again, i don't necessarily compare him to you, but there are other streamers out there who go the same route with their "criticism)
|
On June 02 2014 06:44 Faust852 wrote:
I must admit I never heard of WinterSC before he was featured on TL. Him pulling that much viewers is kind of odd, but still, since there aren't much streamer at that time, and people are looking for entertainment, so they may as well look at his stream, even if he's not really good at the game.
I think the kinda weird thing was that just before he was feautered he constitently had like 600-700 viewers. Then the first week after he got featured, I actually remember thinking it was weird how he didn't really gain anything, becasue he was still at a similar level. But just a couple of days after I had thought, he was somehow able to consistently gain around 2-3K viewers.
|
On June 02 2014 06:50 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 06:42 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 06:41 Andelas wrote:On June 02 2014 06:35 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 06:09 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:59 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:45 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:
[quote]
It is 99% confirmed that some of his views are not legit. It is not confirmed that this is his own doing. He obviously has a fanbase, it's just not as big as these stats indicate. His recent questionable claims that he was the "#1 viewed Starcraft streamer" in his ill-fated AMA have served to only compound the problem. then pls link the data, all i saw is a reddit article that literally said his stream isn't more suspicious than any other streamer you can find. The data is my eyes and knowing how streaming works. So basically no data, ty http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/257n93/hi_im_wintersc_currently_the_1_sc2_streamer_i_am/chei0klOther than him admitting it? No I do not have access to the impossible to access data, shockingly enough. So what exactly does this prove? You and others make it look like he is not legit at all. That is where my problem with this bs starts, it is basically a witch-hunt cause the big boys don't have his numbers and get mad about it. Streams get botted, this is nothing new and not exclusive to Winter, so what exactly is your point? I could probably say exactly the same about 4 random other streams on that list. Does he get botted? Probably from time to time like many other streams out there. The interesting part isn't IF someone gets botted, but how substantial the botting is, as long as nobody shows any data with evidence that his numbers are WAY exaggerated, i don't see any point in this whole discussion really... But hey it is obviously easier to be a douchebag about this whole situation because you don't like his growth. And to add something usefull: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/26cnst/sc2_streams_and_viewbots_the_numbers/ Could you stop pretending that I am somehow jealous of Winters numbers? The last SC2 ladder stream I did I was above 10k concurrent. I have nothing to be jealous of. It's definitely easy to see where some of his fans get their obnoxious attitudes from though. Beating up gold leaguers in the name of "education" and then being smarmy about it is the reason some people don't like him, it has nothing to do with some imaginary "old boys club" being jealous of the newcomer. And your comments here show that you really don't watch his stream and feel justified in being smarmy yourself based on nothing but your own smugness. He starts every stream playing his masters account for at least an hour or two (usually 10-15 games) then switches. But hey, you clearly haven't given any thought before making a judgement on someone else, then again, that's pretty much the foundation of your career. Your honour I rest my case, I think we have proven beyond a doubt that Winters fanbois are insufferable toxic nitwits. i have no idea why you would aslo jump on the hate train, but apparently you do. Ahh yes the good old "hate train". Everyone who criticizes this guy has gotta be a "hater". It's a childish way of approaching things and completely dismissive of criticism. No sorry, you'll have to accept that there are good reasons for not liking your favourite streamer and that going out and attacking those that don't only makes him and his fans look worse. I have no problem with criticism for "my favorite" streamer, i can understand why people think that way, even though i don't agree with them. My problem starts when people like you (with a big following and HUGE influence on the community) start to "witch-hunt" somebody based on rumors, data collected by "your eyes" and other nonsense. If you feel he doesn't deserve the viewers he gets, ok that is a reasonable point for discussion, when you blatantly try to dismiss the success he had to work for for a very long time, i just think it is pretty retarded and somewhat jealous(we all know sc2 doesn't really grow) (again, i don't necessarily compare him to you, but there are other streamers out there who go the same route with their "criticism)
What witchhunt am I starting exactly? Have I begun some sort of campaign to have him delisted from TL? Have his stream partnership revoked? Have I even mentioned the guy outside of this forum? No, I haven't. Everything I have stated up to this point has been a fact and my personal opinion of him is based on those facts.
Was he viewbotted? Yes, 100% confirmed by him in the AMA
Is the data in the OP as a result potentially compromised? Yes, logically it is, problem is we don't know by how much.
Does he smurf a great deal? Yes.
Has he boosted other peoples accounts which is against the ToS? Yes, 100% confirmed by him in the AMA
That's really all there is to it. There's not much to argue with here, these are all facts. The extent of the viewbotting is up for discussion, the fact that it has happened is not.
I find your attitude bizarre. I have experience and influence, so it's not ok for me to speak on such matters, but it is entirely ok for someone like you who has neither to discuss it? Nah sorry the world doesn't work that way. If I was using any of my influence to attack Winter then maybe you would have a point. If I was going around on Twitter shit-talking him, sure, I'd be being irresponsible, but I'm not, I'm merely having a conversation in a forum thread.
|
On June 02 2014 06:51 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 06:44 Faust852 wrote:
I must admit I never heard of WinterSC before he was featured on TL. Him pulling that much viewers is kind of odd, but still, since there aren't much streamer at that time, and people are looking for entertainment, so they may as well look at his stream, even if he's not really good at the game. I think the kinda weird thing was that just before he was feautered he constitently had like 600-700 viewers. Then the first week after he got featured, I actually remember thinking it was weird how he didn't really gain anything, becasue he was still at a similar level. But just a couple of days after I had thought, he was somehow able to consistently gain around 2-3K viewers.
He had double that amount of viewers before being featured. In April he averaged 1300 viewers. I forget the exact day he was featured, but it wasn't until the end of April or early May.
|
On June 02 2014 06:25 EquilasH wrote:If you guys want to see who's viewbotting (or getting viewbotted) this one catches most of them.
According to this link, ESL had 14,017 of its 14,201 viewers botted earlier today. That is clearly wrong, do i don't think anyone should listen to this twitter account.
|
Reaching >1000 viewers without being feature is really strange too. The only similar case was Has, who is well known and reach a totally different audience.
Considering viewership is kinda low nowadays, and there are a lot of better players than WinterSC, maybe as entertaining as him, this is really weird.
|
On June 02 2014 07:03 Josh_Video wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 06:25 EquilasH wrote:If you guys want to see who's viewbotting (or getting viewbotted) this one catches most of them. According to this link, ESL had 14,017 of its 14,201 viewers botted earlier today. That is clearly wrong, do i don't think anyone should listen to this twitter account.
Yeah that account is complete horseshit. IIRC the last one got banned because it was basically accusing people falsely of being viewbotted which caused their channels to get raided.
|
On June 02 2014 07:05 Faust852 wrote:
Reaching >1000 viewers without being feature is really strange too. The only similar case was Has, who is well known and reach a totally different audience.
Considering viewership is kinda low nowadays, and there are a lot of better players than WinterSC, maybe as entertaining as him, this is really weird.
myspyte reached like 1k viewers too before being featured. it's rare but it happens, consindering that TL isnt the only place to watch sc2 streams.
|
On June 02 2014 06:54 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 06:50 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 06:42 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 06:41 Andelas wrote:On June 02 2014 06:35 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 06:09 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:59 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:45 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:
[quote]
then pls link the data, all i saw is a reddit article that literally said his stream isn't more suspicious than any other streamer you can find. The data is my eyes and knowing how streaming works. So basically no data, ty http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/257n93/hi_im_wintersc_currently_the_1_sc2_streamer_i_am/chei0klOther than him admitting it? No I do not have access to the impossible to access data, shockingly enough. So what exactly does this prove? You and others make it look like he is not legit at all. That is where my problem with this bs starts, it is basically a witch-hunt cause the big boys don't have his numbers and get mad about it. Streams get botted, this is nothing new and not exclusive to Winter, so what exactly is your point? I could probably say exactly the same about 4 random other streams on that list. Does he get botted? Probably from time to time like many other streams out there. The interesting part isn't IF someone gets botted, but how substantial the botting is, as long as nobody shows any data with evidence that his numbers are WAY exaggerated, i don't see any point in this whole discussion really... But hey it is obviously easier to be a douchebag about this whole situation because you don't like his growth. And to add something usefull: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/26cnst/sc2_streams_and_viewbots_the_numbers/ Could you stop pretending that I am somehow jealous of Winters numbers? The last SC2 ladder stream I did I was above 10k concurrent. I have nothing to be jealous of. It's definitely easy to see where some of his fans get their obnoxious attitudes from though. Beating up gold leaguers in the name of "education" and then being smarmy about it is the reason some people don't like him, it has nothing to do with some imaginary "old boys club" being jealous of the newcomer. And your comments here show that you really don't watch his stream and feel justified in being smarmy yourself based on nothing but your own smugness. He starts every stream playing his masters account for at least an hour or two (usually 10-15 games) then switches. But hey, you clearly haven't given any thought before making a judgement on someone else, then again, that's pretty much the foundation of your career. Your honour I rest my case, I think we have proven beyond a doubt that Winters fanbois are insufferable toxic nitwits. i have no idea why you would aslo jump on the hate train, but apparently you do. Ahh yes the good old "hate train". Everyone who criticizes this guy has gotta be a "hater". It's a childish way of approaching things and completely dismissive of criticism. No sorry, you'll have to accept that there are good reasons for not liking your favourite streamer and that going out and attacking those that don't only makes him and his fans look worse. I have no problem with criticism for "my favorite" streamer, i can understand why people think that way, even though i don't agree with them. My problem starts when people like you (with a big following and HUGE influence on the community) start to "witch-hunt" somebody based on rumors, data collected by "your eyes" and other nonsense. If you feel he doesn't deserve the viewers he gets, ok that is a reasonable point for discussion, when you blatantly try to dismiss the success he had to work for for a very long time, i just think it is pretty retarded and somewhat jealous(we all know sc2 doesn't really grow) (again, i don't necessarily compare him to you, but there are other streamers out there who go the same route with their "criticism) What witchhunt am I starting exactly? Have I begun some sort of campaign to have him delisted from TL? Have his stream partnership revoked? Have I even mentioned the guy outside of this forum? No, I haven't. Everything I have stated up to this point has been a fact and my personal opinion of him is based on those facts. Was he viewbotted? Yes, 100% confirmed by him in the AMA Is the data in the OP as a result potentially compromised? Yes, logically it is, problem is we don't know by how much. Does he smurf a great deal? Yes. Has he boosted other peoples accounts which is against the ToS? Yes, 100% confirmed by him in the AMA That's really all there is to it. There's not much to argue with here, these are all facts. The extent of the viewbotting is up for discussion, the fact that it has happened is not. I find your attitude bizarre. I have experience and influence, so it's not ok for me to speak on such matters, but it is entirely ok for someone like you who has neither to discuss it? Nah sorry the world doesn't work that way. If I was using any of my influence to attack Winter then maybe you would have a point. If I was going around on Twitter shit-talking him, sure, I'd be being irresponsible, but I'm not, I'm merely having a conversation in a forum thread.
Well i don't know if you mentioned him anyhwere else, i just know that there are some figureheads who mention him from time to time, almost everytime in a bad light though.
Obviously i agree with all of that, i don't want to neglect that viewbotting was going on, but like the reddit article i linked in another comment stated it isn't a regular thing, otherwise you would have to be suspicious about a lot of other streams as well (for example stephano).
So yeah your first comment was just a little bit on the nastier side of things imo, but whatever, i guess it comes down to you not liking him (which is obviously fine)
I also don't want to say that you can't talk about this stuff, i just think it is weird to be so offensive when you don't have much data to back it up (YES he stated he got botted, that doesn't mean it matters much in the big picture though)
But whatever, cause nobody really has any stats this discussion is completely useless in the end- have fun watching game of thrones or anything...
|
On June 02 2014 06:49 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 06:45 Andelas wrote:On June 02 2014 06:42 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 06:41 Andelas wrote:On June 02 2014 06:35 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 06:09 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:59 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:45 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:
[quote]
then pls link the data, all i saw is a reddit article that literally said his stream isn't more suspicious than any other streamer you can find. The data is my eyes and knowing how streaming works. So basically no data, ty http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/257n93/hi_im_wintersc_currently_the_1_sc2_streamer_i_am/chei0klOther than him admitting it? No I do not have access to the impossible to access data, shockingly enough. So what exactly does this prove? You and others make it look like he is not legit at all. That is where my problem with this bs starts, it is basically a witch-hunt cause the big boys don't have his numbers and get mad about it. Streams get botted, this is nothing new and not exclusive to Winter, so what exactly is your point? I could probably say exactly the same about 4 random other streams on that list. Does he get botted? Probably from time to time like many other streams out there. The interesting part isn't IF someone gets botted, but how substantial the botting is, as long as nobody shows any data with evidence that his numbers are WAY exaggerated, i don't see any point in this whole discussion really... But hey it is obviously easier to be a douchebag about this whole situation because you don't like his growth. And to add something usefull: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/26cnst/sc2_streams_and_viewbots_the_numbers/ Could you stop pretending that I am somehow jealous of Winters numbers? The last SC2 ladder stream I did I was above 10k concurrent. I have nothing to be jealous of. It's definitely easy to see where some of his fans get their obnoxious attitudes from though. Beating up gold leaguers in the name of "education" and then being smarmy about it is the reason some people don't like him, it has nothing to do with some imaginary "old boys club" being jealous of the newcomer. And your comments here show that you really don't watch his stream and feel justified in being smarmy yourself based on nothing but your own smugness. He starts every stream playing his masters account for at least an hour or two (usually 10-15 games) then switches. But hey, you clearly haven't given any thought before making a judgement on someone else, then again, that's pretty much the foundation of your career. Your honour I rest my case, I think we have proven beyond a doubt that Winters fanbois are insufferable toxic nitwits. You came here to discredit someone you clearly hardly ever watch. If it's not jealousy, it's ineptitude. You have no data to back up your feelings, yet you said it's not up for discussion anymore. You like to act like you're the arbiter of truths, but have nothing to back yourself up, then complain when others call you out on it. Why would I watch someone I don't like? I'm not a fan of drinking my own piss either, are you going to call me out on the lack of hours I've put into that too? I've seen enough of him gloating or being unnecessarily critical as he smurfs against people far below his level for a living, to know that I dislike his methods. I do not need to clock 200 hours of stream watching to come to that conclusion. I also know that he has boosted accounts of others, which is against the ToS and messes with the integrity of the ladder, yet there have been no consequences to these actions. Smurfing professionally is not something that should be applauded. The fact that he was viewbotted (note fact) is not up for discussion, since has admitted it. As a result the numbers in the OP are in question. Arguing semantics with me won't get you anywhere. I don't act like an arbiter of truths, I act as a very experienced streamer that sees those numbers as inflated based on 5 years of streaming experience and the admission of the streamer that viewbotting has occurred, though as to how much remains to be seen. Tell me again how your "call out" is anything more than fanbois getting rustled?
I don't expect everyone to like him. I understand that there are plenty of people out there who don't like that he smurfs and plays lower-leagues during his "bronze to masters" stuff. But that's not a reason for people to try and discredit him and to suggest his averages are so high because of botting. Being botted a few times a month does not significantly change the averages. And since it happens to many streamers and its out of their control, people are unfairly focusing their disdain for it toward Winter. He's not rigging his view counts and yet every-time his name comes up people suggest he is, without proof, and for whatever reason feel justified in hurting any credibility he has and trying to diminish him.
You don't like that he smurfs, that's fine. I do, because he's much more interactive that someone who doesn't. I don't expect everyone to like that. But to conflate two issues together (smurfing with botting) is disingenuous. Especially when you're someone standing at the top pissing down at someone trying their best to build an audience.
|
Did someone in this thread suggest that TB was jealous of a guy with 2k viewers? Yeah... Bill Gates is jealous of sc2 casters, they bring in so much money 
|
Guys, calm down. Y'all should direct your passion away from this thread and back to the game. 
There's two important unanswered questions here:
a) Did Winter viewbot himself?
b) How often did/does he get viewbotted?
As for a), we obviously can't know for sure. But the random instances of viewbotting that happen definitely make it look very unlikely that Winter has anything to do with it. Surely it would have made more sense for him to viewbot entire sessions over many days instead of random sessions for just a few hours?
As for b), that's the more interesting question. TotalBiscuit is correct, the viewer data is compromised to a certain degree thanks to the viewbotting. The question is: by how much? If it's really just ~5 hours a month, for a streamer who streams ~200 hours a month, I'd say the influence of the viewbotting is negligent. It might be worth pointing out if it continues, though. And it's definitely worth investigating further.
Quite frankly, I think viewbotting is a huge problem for twitch in general. I've seen other streams getting randomly viewbotted from 200 viewers to 10.000 for an hour, and there's nothing the streamers can do about it. I've also seen examples of streamers viewbotting themselves to ~2.000 viewers every time, and it took weeks until that streamer got banned. Twitch needs to put more effort into taking care of these issues.
|
destiny my friend you need to stream more! ^.^
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
