Like most of you, I joined TL at the tailend of the Broodwars era and at the beginning of the SC2 explosion. I was not keenly interested in Broodwars because I knew about the game through SC2, which is also the only version I play.
However, my curiosity led me to watch a few Broodwars games and know about its history and champions. One things struck me! Flash. He was unstoppable. He was superb. He was god. Many people (haters) credit it to his race, the Terran, which they say was responsible for most of the bonjwas (I dont know how to translate this, but looking at the history, this is used to refer to players who are dominant). But the more I watch Flash, the more I realize it is not the race, but really his style of play. He is a perfectionist. His actions are precise. He uses his tanks as an impenetrable wall. He knows how to mindgame his enemies, attacking in most creative and unexpected ways. I don't recall exactly, but I remember it is almost a thing of lore among Broodwars fans that Flash played one game building hundreds of turrets just to nullify an enemy. He will also not hesitate to be cautious and defend with a battery of tanks until he is ready to move out, all for the slightest advantage. He is creative and bold.
Now, this is the reason why Flash has so far failed to succeed in SC2. His style of play simply does not allow it. Terran is not exactly the strong defense-heavy race that it was in Broodwars. It is now weaker but with a lot more options. What hinders Flash now is the race's inability to be defensive when necessary, like Flash did with tanks and depots and Battlecruisers, and move out on strategic points to take advantage of mistakes made by the opponent. Flash cannot anymore rely on the strength of the tanks to leapfrog and strangle the enemy to death. The other races in SC2 have a lot of options to deal with this, and the general speed of SC2 itself does not permit it.
With the latest patch, If Flash played zerg, I think he would be able to optimize his skills and creativity with the Frenzy Broodlord, Ultralisk, and of course, the Swarm Host. I think zerg now has the features of what the terran race was in Broodwars.
Thanks for reading. I just wanted to share my thoughts on why Flash has so far struggled in SC2. I am reviewing the vods of other Broodwars players as well, and I will write about them in the future.
On May 29 2014 08:25 electronic voyeur wrote: Like most of you, I joined TL at the tailend of the Broodwars era and at the beginning of the SC2 explosion. I was not keenly interested in Broodwars because I knew about the game through SC2, which is also the only version I play.
However, my curiosity led me to watch a few Broodwars games and know about its history and champions. One things struck me! Flash. He was unstoppable. He was superb. He was god. Many people (haters) credit it to his race, the Terran, which they say was responsible for most of the bonjwas (I dont know how to translate this, but looking at the history, this is used to refer to players who are dominant). But the more I watch Flash, the more I realize it is not the race, but really his style of play. He is a perfectionist. His actions are precise. He uses his tanks as an impenetrable wall. He knows how to mindgame his enemies, attacking in most creative and unexpected ways. I don't recall exactly, but I remember it is almost a thing of lore among Broodwars fans that Flash played one game building hundreds of turrets just to nullify an enemy. He will also not hesitate to be cautious and defend with a battery of tanks until he is ready to move out, all for the slightest advantage. He is creative and bold.
Now, this is the reason why Flash has so far failed to succeed in SC2. His style of play simply does not allow it. Terran is not exactly the strong defense-heavy race that it was in Broodwars. It is now weaker but with a lot more options. What hinders Flash now is the race's inability to be defensive when necessary, like Flash did with tanks and depots and Battlecruisers, and move out on strategic points to take advantage of mistakes made by the opponent. Flash cannot anymore rely on the strength of the tanks to leapfrog and strangle the enemy to death. The other races in SC2 have a lot of options to deal with this, and the general speed of SC2 itself does not permit it.
With the latest patch, If Flash played zerg, I think he would be able to optimize his skills and creativity with the Frenzy Broodlord, Ultralisk, and of course, the Swarm Host. I think zerg now has the features of what the terran race was in Broodwars.
Thanks for reading. I just wanted to share my thoughts on why Flash has so far struggled in SC2. I am reviewing the vods of other Broodwars players as well, and I will write about them in the future.
Well, at least Flash was one of the best in the world in sc2 playing Terran. + maps in BW/SC2 are quite different. Flashu will have his opportunities, one day it might happen and he will reclaim his throne.
Sadly or not, Bisu hadn't switched to Terran and rejected becoming a God.
On May 29 2014 08:29 DinoMight wrote: I actually think Flash should play Protoss.
It's same to Bisu. Bisu should have played Terran in SC2 and Flash - Protoss. But they simply can't because their auras are with those races, races which they made look godlike at some point.
The consensus is that Flash would have much better results had he played Protoss due to his style and the mechanics of the race.
But, if he can be so good at one style of play, why couldn't he be good at a different style, say the Polt style? Maybe he's stubborn and doesn't want to change his style, or maybe he isn't good at different styles
Everyone has their own style of play, and not anyone can just switch to a different style.
Just look at MarineKing... amazing micro AND macro (yes macro) but the worst decision making I've ever seen. You can't just ask him to play like Rain... it's just not something he can do lol.
To be honest I think the format of tournaments and event contribute to Flash's "struggles". In BW, the only games he played were televised, OSL, MSL, and proleague. These matches lets you prepare for a specific opponent days before hand. Flash is a smart player and plans accordingly depending on his opponents. However in SC2, tournaments outside of GSL and proleague are quick, almost pick-up games where you play many opponents in one day... which isn't what Flash is used to for 7+ years. If you look at his results in proleague and GSL, he is one of the top players in proleague and his GSL record is decent. I don't think Flash is "falling off" of any sort, it's nothing more than just the format of tournaments that favours flash's playstyle.
On May 29 2014 08:37 skylarr wrote: To be honest I think the format of tournaments and event contribute to Flash's "struggles". In BW, the only games he played were televised, OSL, MSL, and proleague. These matches lets you prepare for a specific opponent days before hand. Flash is a smart player and plans accordingly depending on his opponents. However in SC2, tournaments outside of GSL and proleague are quick, almost pick-up games where you play many opponents in one day... which isn't what Flash is used to for 7+ years. If you look at his results in proleague and GSL, he is one of the top players in proleague and his GSL record is decent. I don't think Flash is "falling off" of any sort, it's nothing more than just the format of tournaments that favours flash's playstyle.
Well, when you can't hit more than Ro16 in GSL being BW God, you know that you're probably doing something wrong, considering that Flash carried half-dead KT Rolster last season in hybrid Proleague and he's keeping doing it now while his lieutenant-Code S champion aren't bored by winning anywhere but playoffs finals against SKT T1. And it's not like Flash is playing tons of foreign tournaments. But well, dropping there in early rounds isn't good as well and it's what happened after HotS release.
Look at Stork though. Flash at least had his moments of success in SC2 and Stork was struggling for almost 3 years until he started winning now. So, nothing is lost for Flashu.
On May 29 2014 08:49 TaShadan wrote: Flash does not love sc2 like he loved bw. He just plays it because he gets the money. Thats why he is not as strong as in bw.
It's too ignorant. I'm not a Flash fan, but fans just love him, listen to crowd in SPL when Lee Young Ho is sitting in the booth. And those BW legends appreciate their fans.
On May 29 2014 08:37 skylarr wrote: To be honest I think the format of tournaments and event contribute to Flash's "struggles". In BW, the only games he played were televised, OSL, MSL, and proleague. These matches lets you prepare for a specific opponent days before hand. Flash is a smart player and plans accordingly depending on his opponents. However in SC2, tournaments outside of GSL and proleague are quick, almost pick-up games where you play many opponents in one day... which isn't what Flash is used to for 7+ years. If you look at his results in proleague and GSL, he is one of the top players in proleague and his GSL record is decent. I don't think Flash is "falling off" of any sort, it's nothing more than just the format of tournaments that favours flash's playstyle.
Well, when you can't hit more than Ro16 in GSL being BW God, you know that you're probably doing something wrong, considering that Flash carried half-dead KT Rolster last season in hybrid Proleague and he's keeping doing it now while his lieutenant-Code S champion aren't bored by winning anywhere but playoffs finals against SKT T1. And it's not like Flash is playing tons of foreign tournaments. But well, dropping there in early rounds isn't good as well and it's what happened after HotS release.
Look at Stork though. Flash at least had his moments of success in SC2 and Stork was struggling for almost 3 years until he started winning now. So, nothing is lost for Flashu.
On May 29 2014 08:49 TaShadan wrote: Flash does not love sc2 like he loved bw. He just plays it because he gets the money. Thats why he is not as strong as in bw.
It's too ignorant. I'm not a Flash fan, but fans just love him, listen to crowd in SPL when Lee Young Ho is sitting in the booth. And those BW legends appreciate their fans.
Theres also an unnecessary stigma that Flash must be a Bonjwa in SC2. Had he been a new player that no one knew about, he would be a "great player". But because he is Flash, no one appreciates how he can consistently place ro16. Again, SC2 is a different day and game than bw, give it some time before judging his SC2 skillsets. I didn't say Flash was the same person he was in BW, but he's certainly isn't struggling
I am sorry, but it just bugs me. its Brood War not Broodwars.
Also Flash will succeed eventually, his work ethic is exceptional. He might not reach Bonjwa status, I just cant imagine he wouldn't win something eventually.
On May 29 2014 08:37 skylarr wrote: To be honest I think the format of tournaments and event contribute to Flash's "struggles". In BW, the only games he played were televised, OSL, MSL, and proleague. These matches lets you prepare for a specific opponent days before hand. Flash is a smart player and plans accordingly depending on his opponents. However in SC2, tournaments outside of GSL and proleague are quick, almost pick-up games where you play many opponents in one day... which isn't what Flash is used to for 7+ years. If you look at his results in proleague and GSL, he is one of the top players in proleague and his GSL record is decent. I don't think Flash is "falling off" of any sort, it's nothing more than just the format of tournaments that favours flash's playstyle.
Well, when you can't hit more than Ro16 in GSL being BW God, you know that you're probably doing something wrong, considering that Flash carried half-dead KT Rolster last season in hybrid Proleague and he's keeping doing it now while his lieutenant-Code S champion aren't bored by winning anywhere but playoffs finals against SKT T1. And it's not like Flash is playing tons of foreign tournaments. But well, dropping there in early rounds isn't good as well and it's what happened after HotS release.
Look at Stork though. Flash at least had his moments of success in SC2 and Stork was struggling for almost 3 years until he started winning now. So, nothing is lost for Flashu.
On May 29 2014 08:49 TaShadan wrote: Flash does not love sc2 like he loved bw. He just plays it because he gets the money. Thats why he is not as strong as in bw.
It's too ignorant. I'm not a Flash fan, but fans just love him, listen to crowd in SPL when Lee Young Ho is sitting in the booth. And those BW legends appreciate their fans.
Theres also an unnecessary stigma that Flash must be a Bonjwa in SC2. Had he been a new player that no one knew about, he would be a "great player". But because he is Flash, no one appreciates how he can consistently place ro16. Again, SC2 is a different day and game than bw, give it some time before judging his SC2 skillsets. I didn't say Flash was the same person he was in BW, but he's certainly isn't struggling
I don't know if anyone would consider him a great player. He does well in proleague but that is pretty much it. Is he really consistently making ro16 in code s? I couldn't find a good way to figure it out, but I feel like he hasn't been in a little
On May 29 2014 08:37 skylarr wrote: To be honest I think the format of tournaments and event contribute to Flash's "struggles". In BW, the only games he played were televised, OSL, MSL, and proleague. These matches lets you prepare for a specific opponent days before hand. Flash is a smart player and plans accordingly depending on his opponents. However in SC2, tournaments outside of GSL and proleague are quick, almost pick-up games where you play many opponents in one day... which isn't what Flash is used to for 7+ years. If you look at his results in proleague and GSL, he is one of the top players in proleague and his GSL record is decent. I don't think Flash is "falling off" of any sort, it's nothing more than just the format of tournaments that favours flash's playstyle.
Well, when you can't hit more than Ro16 in GSL being BW God, you know that you're probably doing something wrong, considering that Flash carried half-dead KT Rolster last season in hybrid Proleague and he's keeping doing it now while his lieutenant-Code S champion aren't bored by winning anywhere but playoffs finals against SKT T1. And it's not like Flash is playing tons of foreign tournaments. But well, dropping there in early rounds isn't good as well and it's what happened after HotS release.
Look at Stork though. Flash at least had his moments of success in SC2 and Stork was struggling for almost 3 years until he started winning now. So, nothing is lost for Flashu.
On May 29 2014 08:49 TaShadan wrote: Flash does not love sc2 like he loved bw. He just plays it because he gets the money. Thats why he is not as strong as in bw.
It's too ignorant. I'm not a Flash fan, but fans just love him, listen to crowd in SPL when Lee Young Ho is sitting in the booth. And those BW legends appreciate their fans.
Theres also an unnecessary stigma that Flash must be a Bonjwa in SC2. Had he been a new player that no one knew about, he would be a "great player". But because he is Flash, no one appreciates how he can consistently place ro16. Again, SC2 is a different day and game than bw, give it some time before judging his SC2 skillsets. I didn't say Flash was the same person he was in BW, but he's certainly isn't struggling
I don't know if anyone would consider him a great player. He does well in proleague but that is pretty much it. Is he really consistently making ro16 in code s? I couldn't find a good way to figure it out, but I feel like he hasn't been in a little
He's not doing well in Proleague, he's literally carried KT Rolster to unbelievable 3rd position last Proleague when they were projected as way lower + he's carrying them right now, while TY is slumping again, Zest is busy winning in Code S and so on.
And about consistently making Ro16 in Code S. Who is making it consistently for last seasons? soO, PartinG, Soulkey and Rain? They're top dogs but if we have 4 great players in the world, things are getting weird.
+ Flashu is arguably top-5 if not top-3 Terran in the world right now. It's a shame, that he got Shine in Code A, one day this guy will pay for his sins, l0l.
On May 29 2014 08:37 skylarr wrote: To be honest I think the format of tournaments and event contribute to Flash's "struggles". In BW, the only games he played were televised, OSL, MSL, and proleague. These matches lets you prepare for a specific opponent days before hand. Flash is a smart player and plans accordingly depending on his opponents. However in SC2, tournaments outside of GSL and proleague are quick, almost pick-up games where you play many opponents in one day... which isn't what Flash is used to for 7+ years. If you look at his results in proleague and GSL, he is one of the top players in proleague and his GSL record is decent. I don't think Flash is "falling off" of any sort, it's nothing more than just the format of tournaments that favours flash's playstyle.
Well, when you can't hit more than Ro16 in GSL being BW God, you know that you're probably doing something wrong, considering that Flash carried half-dead KT Rolster last season in hybrid Proleague and he's keeping doing it now while his lieutenant-Code S champion aren't bored by winning anywhere but playoffs finals against SKT T1. And it's not like Flash is playing tons of foreign tournaments. But well, dropping there in early rounds isn't good as well and it's what happened after HotS release.
Look at Stork though. Flash at least had his moments of success in SC2 and Stork was struggling for almost 3 years until he started winning now. So, nothing is lost for Flashu.
On May 29 2014 08:49 TaShadan wrote: Flash does not love sc2 like he loved bw. He just plays it because he gets the money. Thats why he is not as strong as in bw.
It's too ignorant. I'm not a Flash fan, but fans just love him, listen to crowd in SPL when Lee Young Ho is sitting in the booth. And those BW legends appreciate their fans.
Theres also an unnecessary stigma that Flash must be a Bonjwa in SC2. Had he been a new player that no one knew about, he would be a "great player". But because he is Flash, no one appreciates how he can consistently place ro16. Again, SC2 is a different day and game than bw, give it some time before judging his SC2 skillsets. I didn't say Flash was the same person he was in BW, but he's certainly isn't struggling
I don't know if anyone would consider him a great player. He does well in proleague but that is pretty much it. Is he really consistently making ro16 in code s? I couldn't find a good way to figure it out, but I feel like he hasn't been in a little
He's not doing well in Proleague, he's literally carried KT Rolster to unbelievable 3rd position last Proleague when they were projected as way lower + he's carrying them right now, while TY is slumping again, Zest is busy winning in Code S and so on.
And about consistently making Ro16 in Code S. Who is making it consistently for last seasons? soO, PartinG, Soulkey and Rain? They're top dogs but if we have 4 great players in the world, things are getting weird.
+ Flashu is arguably top-5 if not top-3 Terran in the world right now. It's a shame, that he got Shine in Code A, one day this guy will pay for his sins, l0l.
TY isn't slumping, you kidding me? People these days have ridiculous "slump radars" now, it's literally "he lost the last match or two, therefore he's 70% worst than he was the week before". Holy Christ.
Remember reading elsewhere that Flash fits the style of a Protoss or a Zerg more, Jaedong a Protoss and Bisu a Terran in SC2 but for race and BW loyalty's sake stuck with their BW races. As for Flash and Jaedong I think the two are still solid players and can easily rank in the top 10 of their respective races but still need some adjustment or a mental block removed. Perhaps it is still too early to decide whether they should remain their races or if they need a change to truly succeed and possibly reach their BW-levels but I think they still are fine.
On May 29 2014 08:37 skylarr wrote: To be honest I think the format of tournaments and event contribute to Flash's "struggles". In BW, the only games he played were televised, OSL, MSL, and proleague. These matches lets you prepare for a specific opponent days before hand. Flash is a smart player and plans accordingly depending on his opponents. However in SC2, tournaments outside of GSL and proleague are quick, almost pick-up games where you play many opponents in one day... which isn't what Flash is used to for 7+ years. If you look at his results in proleague and GSL, he is one of the top players in proleague and his GSL record is decent. I don't think Flash is "falling off" of any sort, it's nothing more than just the format of tournaments that favours flash's playstyle.
Well, when you can't hit more than Ro16 in GSL being BW God, you know that you're probably doing something wrong, considering that Flash carried half-dead KT Rolster last season in hybrid Proleague and he's keeping doing it now while his lieutenant-Code S champion aren't bored by winning anywhere but playoffs finals against SKT T1. And it's not like Flash is playing tons of foreign tournaments. But well, dropping there in early rounds isn't good as well and it's what happened after HotS release.
Look at Stork though. Flash at least had his moments of success in SC2 and Stork was struggling for almost 3 years until he started winning now. So, nothing is lost for Flashu.
On May 29 2014 08:49 TaShadan wrote: Flash does not love sc2 like he loved bw. He just plays it because he gets the money. Thats why he is not as strong as in bw.
It's too ignorant. I'm not a Flash fan, but fans just love him, listen to crowd in SPL when Lee Young Ho is sitting in the booth. And those BW legends appreciate their fans.
Theres also an unnecessary stigma that Flash must be a Bonjwa in SC2. Had he been a new player that no one knew about, he would be a "great player". But because he is Flash, no one appreciates how he can consistently place ro16. Again, SC2 is a different day and game than bw, give it some time before judging his SC2 skillsets. I didn't say Flash was the same person he was in BW, but he's certainly isn't struggling
I don't know if anyone would consider him a great player. He does well in proleague but that is pretty much it. Is he really consistently making ro16 in code s? I couldn't find a good way to figure it out, but I feel like he hasn't been in a little
He's not doing well in Proleague, he's literally carried KT Rolster to unbelievable 3rd position last Proleague when they were projected as way lower + he's carrying them right now, while TY is slumping again, Zest is busy winning in Code S and so on.
And about consistently making Ro16 in Code S. Who is making it consistently for last seasons? soO, PartinG, Soulkey and Rain? They're top dogs but if we have 4 great players in the world, things are getting weird.
+ Flashu is arguably top-5 if not top-3 Terran in the world right now. It's a shame, that he got Shine in Code A, one day this guy will pay for his sins, l0l.
Regardless of what you want to call it I was not disputing that. He has been in Code S 2/5 last seasons. Who has made it consistently or at least greater than 40% of the time? Life,Symbol,Curious,Leenock, Bomber,GuMiho,Squirtle,PartinG, RorO,KeeN, Soulkey, DongRaeGu, INnoVation, soO,Rain, hero and quite possibly others. Did he also bomb out a few foreign tournaments? Why are you calling him Flashu?
On May 29 2014 10:55 PhoenixVoid wrote: Remember reading elsewhere that Flash fits the style of a Protoss or a Zerg more, Jaedong a Protoss and Bisu a Terran in SC2 but for race and BW loyalty's sake stuck with their BW races. As for Flash and Jaedong I think the two are still solid players and can easily rank in the top 10 of their respective races but still need some adjustment or a mental block removed. Perhaps it is still too early to decide whether they should remain their races or if they need a change to truly succeed and possibly reach their BW-levels but I think they still are fine.
I don't think Jaedong needs any help playing Zerg. He's been doing fine.
I don't think he'd be very good with Zerg at all, in fact he'd probably be worse off with it than with Terran. His macro is probably still the best in sc2, but Zerg also calls for a lot of reactionary play that stems from good decisions and proper scouting. As many know, that's probably Flash's weakest attribute by far in sc2. Which is far different from how he was in BW.
I'm with the majority that he'd make a good protoss. He's really strong if he's able to macro into the later stages.
On May 29 2014 08:37 skylarr wrote: To be honest I think the format of tournaments and event contribute to Flash's "struggles". In BW, the only games he played were televised, OSL, MSL, and proleague. These matches lets you prepare for a specific opponent days before hand. Flash is a smart player and plans accordingly depending on his opponents. However in SC2, tournaments outside of GSL and proleague are quick, almost pick-up games where you play many opponents in one day... which isn't what Flash is used to for 7+ years. If you look at his results in proleague and GSL, he is one of the top players in proleague and his GSL record is decent. I don't think Flash is "falling off" of any sort, it's nothing more than just the format of tournaments that favours flash's playstyle.
Well, when you can't hit more than Ro16 in GSL being BW God, you know that you're probably doing something wrong, considering that Flash carried half-dead KT Rolster last season in hybrid Proleague and he's keeping doing it now while his lieutenant-Code S champion aren't bored by winning anywhere but playoffs finals against SKT T1. And it's not like Flash is playing tons of foreign tournaments. But well, dropping there in early rounds isn't good as well and it's what happened after HotS release.
Look at Stork though. Flash at least had his moments of success in SC2 and Stork was struggling for almost 3 years until he started winning now. So, nothing is lost for Flashu.
On May 29 2014 08:49 TaShadan wrote: Flash does not love sc2 like he loved bw. He just plays it because he gets the money. Thats why he is not as strong as in bw.
It's too ignorant. I'm not a Flash fan, but fans just love him, listen to crowd in SPL when Lee Young Ho is sitting in the booth. And those BW legends appreciate their fans.
Theres also an unnecessary stigma that Flash must be a Bonjwa in SC2. Had he been a new player that no one knew about, he would be a "great player". But because he is Flash, no one appreciates how he can consistently place ro16. Again, SC2 is a different day and game than bw, give it some time before judging his SC2 skillsets. I didn't say Flash was the same person he was in BW, but he's certainly isn't struggling
I don't know if anyone would consider him a great player. He does well in proleague but that is pretty much it. Is he really consistently making ro16 in code s? I couldn't find a good way to figure it out, but I feel like he hasn't been in a little
He's not doing well in Proleague, he's literally carried KT Rolster to unbelievable 3rd position last Proleague when they were projected as way lower + he's carrying them right now, while TY is slumping again, Zest is busy winning in Code S and so on.
And about consistently making Ro16 in Code S. Who is making it consistently for last seasons? soO, PartinG, Soulkey and Rain? They're top dogs but if we have 4 great players in the world, things are getting weird.
+ Flashu is arguably top-5 if not top-3 Terran in the world right now. It's a shame, that he got Shine in Code A, one day this guy will pay for his sins, l0l.
TY isn't slumping, you kidding me? People these days have ridiculous "slump radars" now, it's literally "he lost the last match or two, therefore he's 70% worst than he was the week before". Holy Christ.
And Flash is #3 this PL.. how is that not good?
Proleague is not WCS and individual tournament success. Flash hasn't won anything in SC2.
1. Flash didn't become the best at Brood War over night. In fact it took years from when he first picked up Brood War to even become recognized as a top level player. SC2, as I view it, is a completely different game. I expect it to take Flash several years to master too.
2. Flash is playing SC2 in an era were the game is not stable. He joined while WoL was around. HoTS has continued to recieve patches. As someone as brilliant as him, I also believe time working with a no longer patched/upgraded game will make a huge difference. When he played Brood War there were no more patches and a lot of the game had been discovered.
3. SC2 is not even close to Brood War in strategy. All the timings are completely different. Flash, the god of strategy in Brood War, has to forget more habits from SC1 then anyone out there in order to play his best at SC2. These are habit he has been developing 14 hours a day every day for the 6 years before the switch.
4. Flash came into the Brood War scene as someone unknown building up from the bottom. In order to defeat his opponents he would cheese often or go for strong yet simple all-ins to beat better opponents. Flash in SC2 is trying to be the whole package. He wants to play like he did at the end of Brood War with large macro and economic builds. I believe he has lost the vision he had when he first started Brood War. That was, defeat opponents no matter what over playing the macro style game against opponents who mastered it already.
Flash went undefeated in proleague during the month of April. He's still very talented. I don't doubt that if he enjoys playing the game, that he will always remain at the top. I just think my four previous points are some heavy factors.
Most terrans have excellent offrace, Taeja had 63% winrate on KR GM with toss, jjakji reached EU high masters with toss in less than 50 games (although some might consider EU masters bad for a Code S player). aLive beat Jaedong 3-0 with Zerg (JD played terran) on stream. ForGG also offraces sometimes and has decent winrate in EU GM
On May 29 2014 12:09 BisuDagger wrote: Here's how I see it:
1. Flash didn't become the best at Brood War over night. In fact it took years from when he first picked up Brood War to even become recognized as a top level player. SC2, as I view it, is a completely different game. I expect it to take Flash several years to master too.
2. Flash is playing SC2 in an era were the game is not stable. He joined while WoL was around. HoTS has continued to recieve patches. As someone as brilliant as him, I also believe time working with a no longer patched/upgraded game will make a huge difference. When he played Brood War there were no more patches and a lot of the game had been discovered.
3. SC2 is not even close to Brood War in strategy. All the timings are completely different. Flash, the god of strategy in Brood War, has to forget more habits from SC1 then anyone out there in order to play his best at SC2. These are habit he has been developing 14 hours a day every day for the 6 years before the switch.
4. Flash came into the Brood War scene as someone unknown building up from the bottom. In order to defeat his opponents he would cheese often or go for strong yet simple all-ins to beat better opponents. Flash in SC2 is trying to be the whole package. He wants to play like he did at the end of Brood War with large macro and economic builds. I believe he has lost the vision he had when he first started Brood War. That was, defeat opponents no matter what over playing the macro style game against opponents who mastered it already.
Flash went undefeated in proleague during the month of April. He's still very talented. I don't doubt that if he enjoys playing the game, that he will always remain at the top. I just thing my four previous points are some heavy factors.
On May 29 2014 08:25 electronic voyeur wrote: Like most of you, I joined TL at the tailend of the Broodwars era and at the beginning of the SC2 explosion. I was not keenly interested in Broodwars because I knew about the game through SC2, which is also the only version I play.
However, my curiosity led me to watch a few Broodwars games and know about its history and champions. One things struck me! Flash. He was unstoppable. He was superb. He was god. Many people (haters) credit it to his race, the Terran, which they say was responsible for most of the bonjwas (I dont know how to translate this, but looking at the history, this is used to refer to players who are dominant). But the more I watch Flash, the more I realize it is not the race, but really his style of play. He is a perfectionist. His actions are precise. He uses his tanks as an impenetrable wall. He knows how to mindgame his enemies, attacking in most creative and unexpected ways. I don't recall exactly, but I remember it is almost a thing of lore among Broodwars fans that Flash played one game building hundreds of turrets just to nullify an enemy. He will also not hesitate to be cautious and defend with a battery of tanks until he is ready to move out, all for the slightest advantage. He is creative and bold.
Now, this is the reason why Flash has so far failed to succeed in SC2. His style of play simply does not allow it. Terran is not exactly the strong defense-heavy race that it was in Broodwars. It is now weaker but with a lot more options. What hinders Flash now is the race's inability to be defensive when necessary, like Flash did with tanks and depots and Battlecruisers, and move out on strategic points to take advantage of mistakes made by the opponent. Flash cannot anymore rely on the strength of the tanks to leapfrog and strangle the enemy to death. The other races in SC2 have a lot of options to deal with this, and the general speed of SC2 itself does not permit it.
With the latest patch, If Flash played zerg, I think he would be able to optimize his skills and creativity with the Frenzy Broodlord, Ultralisk, and of course, the Swarm Host. I think zerg now has the features of what the terran race was in Broodwars.
Thanks for reading. I just wanted to share my thoughts on why Flash has so far struggled in SC2. I am reviewing the vods of other Broodwars players as well, and I will write about them in the future.
THIS POST IS JUST GARBAGE. ElectronicVoyeur don't do this crap. Its a feeling post without statistics. You are blatently wrong. First off saying that he struggles, that's a lie. He does great, particularly in TvZ for which he was 7 wins 2 losses. In 2014, Flash was 15 wins, 8 losses overall. + Show Spoiler +
I'll admit that he just like nearly every other terran does struggle quite a bit vs toss. (but terran just doesn't have a great transition into the late late game vs toss.) But where do you get off with this post saying that he's not nearly as good and he'd be better as zerg because you feel that zerg is op. Get over yourself.
He plays week in and out vs the very best in proleague and is still one of the best players hands down. He plays bio and mech. He has many different tricks. Flash has always been known for his execution. He's not a player like Bbyong who will go 2 base bc. (ie vs sleep) or does hellbat marine pushes (ie vs soulkey) He is still one of the most dominant players he's creative and still mind games his enemies.
You are an idiot, who doesn't look at statistics and doesn't watch the actual games. Why would you change races to a race that you beat 7-2 in 2014?
On May 29 2014 12:09 BisuDagger wrote: Here's how I see it:
1. Flash didn't become the best at Brood War over night. In fact it took years from when he first picked up Brood War to even become recognized as a top level player. SC2, as I view it, is a completely different game. I expect it to take Flash several years to master too.
2. Flash is playing SC2 in an era were the game is not stable. He joined while WoL was around. HoTS has continued to recieve patches. As someone as brilliant as him, I also believe time working with a no longer patched/upgraded game will make a huge difference. When he played Brood War there were no more patches and a lot of the game had been discovered.
3. SC2 is not even close to Brood War in strategy. All the timings are completely different. Flash, the god of strategy in Brood War, has to forget more habits from SC1 then anyone out there in order to play his best at SC2. These are habit he has been developing 14 hours a day every day for the 6 years before the switch.
4. Flash came into the Brood War scene as someone unknown building up from the bottom. In order to defeat his opponents he would cheese often or go for strong yet simple all-ins to beat better opponents. Flash in SC2 is trying to be the whole package. He wants to play like he did at the end of Brood War with large macro and economic builds. I believe he has lost the vision he had when he first started Brood War. That was, defeat opponents no matter what over playing the macro style game against opponents who mastered it already.
Flash went undefeated in proleague during the month of April. He's still very talented. I don't doubt that if he enjoys playing the game, that he will always remain at the top. I just thing my four previous points are some heavy factors.
On May 29 2014 08:33 Thieving Magpie wrote: If Flash played Zerg he'd actually have proper siege tanks in the swarm host.
Fun fact: Flash started as a zerg player and Jaedong as a terran player. When they practiced against each other, they would offrace ZvT which is why both their ZvT matchups were godlike to watch
On May 29 2014 08:25 electronic voyeur wrote: I don't recall exactly, but I remember it is almost a thing of lore among Broodwars fans that Flash played one game building hundreds of turrets just to nullify an enemy.
On May 29 2014 12:09 BisuDagger wrote: Here's how I see it:
1. Flash didn't become the best at Brood War over night. In fact it took years from when he first picked up Brood War to even become recognized as a top level player. SC2, as I view it, is a completely different game. I expect it to take Flash several years to master too.
2. Flash is playing SC2 in an era were the game is not stable. He joined while WoL was around. HoTS has continued to recieve patches. As someone as brilliant as him, I also believe time working with a no longer patched/upgraded game will make a huge difference. When he played Brood War there were no more patches and a lot of the game had been discovered.
3. SC2 is not even close to Brood War in strategy. All the timings are completely different. Flash, the god of strategy in Brood War, has to forget more habits from SC1 then anyone out there in order to play his best at SC2. These are habit he has been developing 14 hours a day every day for the 6 years before the switch.
4. Flash came into the Brood War scene as someone unknown building up from the bottom. In order to defeat his opponents he would cheese often or go for strong yet simple all-ins to beat better opponents. Flash in SC2 is trying to be the whole package. He wants to play like he did at the end of Brood War with large macro and economic builds. I believe he has lost the vision he had when he first started Brood War. That was, defeat opponents no matter what over playing the macro style game against opponents who mastered it already.
Flash went undefeated in proleague during the month of April. He's still very talented. I don't doubt that if he enjoys playing the game, that he will always remain at the top. I just thing my four previous points are some heavy factors.
On May 29 2014 08:25 electronic voyeur wrote: Like most of you, I joined TL at the tailend of the Broodwars era and at the beginning of the SC2 explosion. I was not keenly interested in Broodwars because I knew about the game through SC2, which is also the only version I play.
However, my curiosity led me to watch a few Broodwars games and know about its history and champions. One things struck me! Flash. He was unstoppable. He was superb. He was god. Many people (haters) credit it to his race, the Terran, which they say was responsible for most of the bonjwas (I dont know how to translate this, but looking at the history, this is used to refer to players who are dominant). But the more I watch Flash, the more I realize it is not the race, but really his style of play. He is a perfectionist. His actions are precise. He uses his tanks as an impenetrable wall. He knows how to mindgame his enemies, attacking in most creative and unexpected ways. I don't recall exactly, but I remember it is almost a thing of lore among Broodwars fans that Flash played one game building hundreds of turrets just to nullify an enemy. He will also not hesitate to be cautious and defend with a battery of tanks until he is ready to move out, all for the slightest advantage. He is creative and bold.
Now, this is the reason why Flash has so far failed to succeed in SC2. His style of play simply does not allow it. Terran is not exactly the strong defense-heavy race that it was in Broodwars. It is now weaker but with a lot more options. What hinders Flash now is the race's inability to be defensive when necessary, like Flash did with tanks and depots and Battlecruisers, and move out on strategic points to take advantage of mistakes made by the opponent. Flash cannot anymore rely on the strength of the tanks to leapfrog and strangle the enemy to death. The other races in SC2 have a lot of options to deal with this, and the general speed of SC2 itself does not permit it.
With the latest patch, If Flash played zerg, I think he would be able to optimize his skills and creativity with the Frenzy Broodlord, Ultralisk, and of course, the Swarm Host. I think zerg now has the features of what the terran race was in Broodwars.
Thanks for reading. I just wanted to share my thoughts on why Flash has so far struggled in SC2. I am reviewing the vods of other Broodwars players as well, and I will write about them in the future.
Sure Flash is not the ultimate weapon anymore. But he could very well be top 3 (after maru and innovation), and he is definitely among the top 5 Terrans (after bbyong and supernova). It's just that Terran is not among the top race. Imagine a world where only top 2 protoss/zergs would be considered successful.
On May 29 2014 08:37 skylarr wrote: To be honest I think the format of tournaments and event contribute to Flash's "struggles". In BW, the only games he played were televised, OSL, MSL, and proleague. These matches lets you prepare for a specific opponent days before hand. Flash is a smart player and plans accordingly depending on his opponents. However in SC2, tournaments outside of GSL and proleague are quick, almost pick-up games where you play many opponents in one day... which isn't what Flash is used to for 7+ years. If you look at his results in proleague and GSL, he is one of the top players in proleague and his GSL record is decent. I don't think Flash is "falling off" of any sort, it's nothing more than just the format of tournaments that favours flash's playstyle.
Well, when you can't hit more than Ro16 in GSL being BW God, you know that you're probably doing something wrong, considering that Flash carried half-dead KT Rolster last season in hybrid Proleague and he's keeping doing it now while his lieutenant-Code S champion aren't bored by winning anywhere but playoffs finals against SKT T1. And it's not like Flash is playing tons of foreign tournaments. But well, dropping there in early rounds isn't good as well and it's what happened after HotS release.
Look at Stork though. Flash at least had his moments of success in SC2 and Stork was struggling for almost 3 years until he started winning now. So, nothing is lost for Flashu.
On May 29 2014 08:49 TaShadan wrote: Flash does not love sc2 like he loved bw. He just plays it because he gets the money. Thats why he is not as strong as in bw.
It's too ignorant. I'm not a Flash fan, but fans just love him, listen to crowd in SPL when Lee Young Ho is sitting in the booth. And those BW legends appreciate their fans.
Theres also an unnecessary stigma that Flash must be a Bonjwa in SC2. Had he been a new player that no one knew about, he would be a "great player". But because he is Flash, no one appreciates how he can consistently place ro16. Again, SC2 is a different day and game than bw, give it some time before judging his SC2 skillsets. I didn't say Flash was the same person he was in BW, but he's certainly isn't struggling
Spot on.
Just because that some players have had huge succes earlier in their career doesn't mean that they A) Should ROFLSTOMP just because of earlier results. B) That he can't still (slowly but surely ) get better and better with time. C) That he isn't doing good (or atleast getting better)
It's normal for us to judge a player based on our experiences and memories with them in the past. But that doesn't translate to: that he SHOULD be the best, or that - because he isn't doing "good" (that statement is lol in inself...) that he has lost his passion, hates the game, will never get good etc etc.
It's no surprise that Flash's best matchup is TvZ. SC2 and BW TvZ are probably the most similar among all the matchups. And Flash had a very aggressive, timing oriented TvZ play back in BW. But his TvT and TvP skills in BW are pretty worthless in SC2, as passive positional play gets you killed in SC2. Especially in TvP.
Flash as a player is just designed to play protoss. If Flash played protoss, he'd be considered an universal villain by the SC2 community for playing either the most boring, drawn out, 3-base macro into deathball into win type of play. Or he'd just hit precise timing windows with lame immortal all-ins or blink stalker all-ins and people would just scream imba even more than they do now.
On May 29 2014 08:25 electronic voyeur wrote: Like most of you, I joined TL at the tailend of the Broodwars era and at the beginning of the SC2 explosion. I was not keenly interested in Broodwars because I knew about the game through SC2, which is also the only version I play.
However, my curiosity led me to watch a few Broodwars games and know about its history and champions. One things struck me! Flash. He was unstoppable. He was superb. He was god. Many people (haters) credit it to his race, the Terran, which they say was responsible for most of the bonjwas (I dont know how to translate this, but looking at the history, this is used to refer to players who are dominant). But the more I watch Flash, the more I realize it is not the race, but really his style of play. He is a perfectionist. His actions are precise. He uses his tanks as an impenetrable wall. He knows how to mindgame his enemies, attacking in most creative and unexpected ways. I don't recall exactly, but I remember it is almost a thing of lore among Broodwars fans that Flash played one game building hundreds of turrets just to nullify an enemy. He will also not hesitate to be cautious and defend with a battery of tanks until he is ready to move out, all for the slightest advantage. He is creative and bold.
Now, this is the reason why Flash has so far failed to succeed in SC2. His style of play simply does not allow it. Terran is not exactly the strong defense-heavy race that it was in Broodwars. It is now weaker but with a lot more options. What hinders Flash now is the race's inability to be defensive when necessary, like Flash did with tanks and depots and Battlecruisers, and move out on strategic points to take advantage of mistakes made by the opponent. Flash cannot anymore rely on the strength of the tanks to leapfrog and strangle the enemy to death. The other races in SC2 have a lot of options to deal with this, and the general speed of SC2 itself does not permit it.
With the latest patch, If Flash played zerg, I think he would be able to optimize his skills and creativity with the Frenzy Broodlord, Ultralisk, and of course, the Swarm Host. I think zerg now has the features of what the terran race was in Broodwars.
Thanks for reading. I just wanted to share my thoughts on why Flash has so far struggled in SC2. I am reviewing the vods of other Broodwars players as well, and I will write about them in the future.
Sure Flash is not the ultimate weapon anymore. But he could very well be top 3 (after maru and innovation), and he is definitely among the top 5 Terrans (after bbyong and supernova). It's just that Terran is not among the top race. Imagine a world where only top 2 protoss/zergs would be considered successful.
On May 29 2014 08:25 electronic voyeur wrote: Like most of you, I joined TL at the tailend of the Broodwars era and at the beginning of the SC2 explosion. I was not keenly interested in Broodwars because I knew about the game through SC2, which is also the only version I play.
However, my curiosity led me to watch a few Broodwars games and know about its history and champions. One things struck me! Flash. He was unstoppable. He was superb. He was god. Many people (haters) credit it to his race, the Terran, which they say was responsible for most of the bonjwas (I dont know how to translate this, but looking at the history, this is used to refer to players who are dominant). But the more I watch Flash, the more I realize it is not the race, but really his style of play. He is a perfectionist. His actions are precise. He uses his tanks as an impenetrable wall. He knows how to mindgame his enemies, attacking in most creative and unexpected ways. I don't recall exactly, but I remember it is almost a thing of lore among Broodwars fans that Flash played one game building hundreds of turrets just to nullify an enemy. He will also not hesitate to be cautious and defend with a battery of tanks until he is ready to move out, all for the slightest advantage. He is creative and bold.
Now, this is the reason why Flash has so far failed to succeed in SC2. His style of play simply does not allow it. Terran is not exactly the strong defense-heavy race that it was in Broodwars. It is now weaker but with a lot more options. What hinders Flash now is the race's inability to be defensive when necessary, like Flash did with tanks and depots and Battlecruisers, and move out on strategic points to take advantage of mistakes made by the opponent. Flash cannot anymore rely on the strength of the tanks to leapfrog and strangle the enemy to death. The other races in SC2 have a lot of options to deal with this, and the general speed of SC2 itself does not permit it.
With the latest patch, If Flash played zerg, I think he would be able to optimize his skills and creativity with the Frenzy Broodlord, Ultralisk, and of course, the Swarm Host. I think zerg now has the features of what the terran race was in Broodwars.
Thanks for reading. I just wanted to share my thoughts on why Flash has so far struggled in SC2. I am reviewing the vods of other Broodwars players as well, and I will write about them in the future.
Sure Flash is not the ultimate weapon anymore. But he could very well be top 3 (after maru and innovation), and he is definitely among the top 5 Terrans (after bbyong and supernova). It's just that Terran is not among the top race. Imagine a world where only top 2 protoss/zergs would be considered successful.
Bomber, Polt, Taeja, MMA are better than Flash.
Based on what ? (Old) Foreign tournament performances ? I would be interested to see how they perform consistently in ProLeague or WCS Korea.
On May 29 2014 12:09 BisuDagger wrote: Here's how I see it:
1. Flash didn't become the best at Brood War over night. In fact it took years from when he first picked up Brood War to even become recognized as a top level player. SC2, as I view it, is a completely different game. I expect it to take Flash several years to master too.
2. Flash is playing SC2 in an era were the game is not stable. He joined while WoL was around. HoTS has continued to recieve patches. As someone as brilliant as him, I also believe time working with a no longer patched/upgraded game will make a huge difference. When he played Brood War there were no more patches and a lot of the game had been discovered.
3. SC2 is not even close to Brood War in strategy. All the timings are completely different. Flash, the god of strategy in Brood War, has to forget more habits from SC1 then anyone out there in order to play his best at SC2. These are habit he has been developing 14 hours a day every day for the 6 years before the switch.
4. Flash came into the Brood War scene as someone unknown building up from the bottom. In order to defeat his opponents he would cheese often or go for strong yet simple all-ins to beat better opponents. Flash in SC2 is trying to be the whole package. He wants to play like he did at the end of Brood War with large macro and economic builds. I believe he has lost the vision he had when he first started Brood War. That was, defeat opponents no matter what over playing the macro style game against opponents who mastered it already.
Flash went undefeated in proleague during the month of April. He's still very talented. I don't doubt that if he enjoys playing the game, that he will always remain at the top. I just thing my four previous points are some heavy factors.
On May 29 2014 08:25 electronic voyeur wrote: Like most of you, I joined TL at the tailend of the Broodwars era and at the beginning of the SC2 explosion. I was not keenly interested in Broodwars because I knew about the game through SC2, which is also the only version I play.
However, my curiosity led me to watch a few Broodwars games and know about its history and champions. One things struck me! Flash. He was unstoppable. He was superb. He was god. Many people (haters) credit it to his race, the Terran, which they say was responsible for most of the bonjwas (I dont know how to translate this, but looking at the history, this is used to refer to players who are dominant). But the more I watch Flash, the more I realize it is not the race, but really his style of play. He is a perfectionist. His actions are precise. He uses his tanks as an impenetrable wall. He knows how to mindgame his enemies, attacking in most creative and unexpected ways. I don't recall exactly, but I remember it is almost a thing of lore among Broodwars fans that Flash played one game building hundreds of turrets just to nullify an enemy. He will also not hesitate to be cautious and defend with a battery of tanks until he is ready to move out, all for the slightest advantage. He is creative and bold.
Now, this is the reason why Flash has so far failed to succeed in SC2. His style of play simply does not allow it. Terran is not exactly the strong defense-heavy race that it was in Broodwars. It is now weaker but with a lot more options. What hinders Flash now is the race's inability to be defensive when necessary, like Flash did with tanks and depots and Battlecruisers, and move out on strategic points to take advantage of mistakes made by the opponent. Flash cannot anymore rely on the strength of the tanks to leapfrog and strangle the enemy to death. The other races in SC2 have a lot of options to deal with this, and the general speed of SC2 itself does not permit it.
With the latest patch, If Flash played zerg, I think he would be able to optimize his skills and creativity with the Frenzy Broodlord, Ultralisk, and of course, the Swarm Host. I think zerg now has the features of what the terran race was in Broodwars.
Thanks for reading. I just wanted to share my thoughts on why Flash has so far struggled in SC2. I am reviewing the vods of other Broodwars players as well, and I will write about them in the future.
Sure Flash is not the ultimate weapon anymore. But he could very well be top 3 (after maru and innovation), and he is definitely among the top 5 Terrans (after bbyong and supernova). It's just that Terran is not among the top race. Imagine a world where only top 2 protoss/zergs would be considered successful.
Bomber, Polt, Taeja, MMA are better than Flash.
Based on what ? (Old) Foreign tournament performances ? I would be interested to see how they perform consistently in ProLeague or WCS Korea.
We can't compare them directly, but there is plenty evidence. Taeja dominated Innovation, Life, and Rain, some of the best players in Korea. Polt is miles better than Flash in TvP and probably better in TvT as well. I couldn't imagine Polt losing to YongHwa and Bravo in code A. Bomber had much better performance during his time in Korea and his skill hasn't declined or anything. MMA is more questionable, but he 2-0 Flash last time they met, and he looks pretty solid recently still.
On May 29 2014 12:09 BisuDagger wrote: Here's how I see it:
1. Flash didn't become the best at Brood War over night. In fact it took years from when he first picked up Brood War to even become recognized as a top level player. SC2, as I view it, is a completely different game. I expect it to take Flash several years to master too.
2. Flash is playing SC2 in an era were the game is not stable. He joined while WoL was around. HoTS has continued to recieve patches. As someone as brilliant as him, I also believe time working with a no longer patched/upgraded game will make a huge difference. When he played Brood War there were no more patches and a lot of the game had been discovered.
3. SC2 is not even close to Brood War in strategy. All the timings are completely different. Flash, the god of strategy in Brood War, has to forget more habits from SC1 then anyone out there in order to play his best at SC2. These are habit he has been developing 14 hours a day every day for the 6 years before the switch.
4. Flash came into the Brood War scene as someone unknown building up from the bottom. In order to defeat his opponents he would cheese often or go for strong yet simple all-ins to beat better opponents. Flash in SC2 is trying to be the whole package. He wants to play like he did at the end of Brood War with large macro and economic builds. I believe he has lost the vision he had when he first started Brood War. That was, defeat opponents no matter what over playing the macro style game against opponents who mastered it already.
Flash went undefeated in proleague during the month of April. He's still very talented. I don't doubt that if he enjoys playing the game, that he will always remain at the top. I just thing my four previous points are some heavy factors.
boom, /thread
don't empty quote like that
Is that worth of report?
--- Was there replay function in bw?
normally it would be, yes, but seeker is staff so he gets away with a bit more
If you seriously want to open a thread about flash and sc2 i would love to see atleast some statistics or some kind of data instead of just writing down your opinion without anything to back it up. Post characteristic games of flash, link games in which he has shown his brilliance or anything like that. Otherwise i dont see a whole lot of value in the OP :S (although it did stir up some discussion)
Oldtimer here, chiming in. (Warning though, I havent really followed the tournaments the last couple of months. so some things I say might be outdated.)
Flash rose gradually as the best. He did not become god overnight, although early on, progamers like Oov and Savior are already commenting on his macro skills. He had (still has) a ridiculous work ethic, and he mastered every aspect of every strategy there is in BW. Moreover, BW was a complete game when he played it, and although there were often new tweaks, timings, and innovations, with the amount of knowledge, mechanics, experience, practice, and in-game scouting at the pro-level, nothing is a complete surprise. The only thing to do at the prolevel is execute and react and counteract perfectly. His tanklines are impenetrable, his marine drops are game-ender, and everything he does is perfect. Now comes SC2. The biggest problem about SC2 is that it comes on this retarded triple expansion. Because of this, prolevel games are unstable simply because the game is not finished yet. New patches are being done. Incessant whining and crying happens. Nerfs and buffs disrupt presently held metagames. As a result, there is no stable metagama or even playstyle that could guarantee domination, not even with Flash`s mechanics and starsense. Flash is playing SC2 as if he is playing BW, relying on his strengths on macro and muscle-oriented offense. I think he needs to unlearn his god-mode and learn SC2 from thr ground up, that way he really understands and can take advantage of all the idiosyncracies and quirks of the game. I personally do not think he will reach god status in SC2, but I think he will be around for a while at a decent sub-Code S level.
On May 29 2014 08:25 electronic voyeur wrote: I don't recall exactly, but I remember it is almost a thing of lore among Broodwars fans that Flash played one game building hundreds of turrets just to nullify an enemy.
On May 29 2014 17:41 googolplex wrote: Now comes SC2. The biggest problem about SC2 is that it comes on this retarded triple expansion. Because of this, prolevel games are unstable simply because the game is not finished yet. New patches are being done. Incessant whining and crying happens. Nerfs and buffs disrupt presently held metagames. As a result, there is no stable metagama or even playstyle that could guarantee domination, not even with Flash`s mechanics and starsense.
I think that the "unstability" you speak of allows players to show who has the superior STRATEGIC mindset and in a real time STRATEGY game that's a good thing. Players like TAiLS and Elfi aren't mechanically brilliant, but they're so good at coming up with new builds and strategies that they manage to remain relevant, and I think that's a good thing. I never really liked playing BW because mechanics were emphasised too much relative to strategy. Mechanics obviously are important and do need to be important, but strategy should always be the most important element of a strategy game and I don't think that was the case in BW due to the insane mechanical demands.
EDIT:
Elephant In The Room: Never forgive, never forget. MC is still stomping face and taking cheques! :D
Strategy isn't fun to watch. It's the micro, macro, and tactics that create excitement. One can argue the fact that players like Elfi, TAiLs are relevant is what's wrong with SC2.
On May 29 2014 08:25 electronic voyeur wrote: I don't recall exactly, but I remember it is almost a thing of lore among Broodwars fans that Flash played one game building hundreds of turrets just to nullify an enemy.
On May 29 2014 17:41 googolplex wrote: Now comes SC2. The biggest problem about SC2 is that it comes on this retarded triple expansion. Because of this, prolevel games are unstable simply because the game is not finished yet. New patches are being done. Incessant whining and crying happens. Nerfs and buffs disrupt presently held metagames. As a result, there is no stable metagama or even playstyle that could guarantee domination, not even with Flash`s mechanics and starsense.
I think that the "unstability" you speak of allows players to show who has the superior STRATEGIC mindset and in a real time STRATEGY game that's a good thing. Players like TAiLS and Elfi aren't mechanically brilliant, but they're so good at coming up with new builds and strategies that they manage to remain relevant, and I think that's a good thing. I never really liked playing BW because mechanics were emphasised too much relative to strategy. Mechanics obviously are important and do need to be important, but strategy should always be the most important element of a strategy game and I don't think that was the case in BW due to the insane mechanical demands.
EDIT:
Elephant In The Room: Never forgive, never forget. MC is still stomping face and taking cheques! :D
There were inferior mechanical players stomping mechanical geniuses in BW too (Prime example Savior). Arguably there were more playstyles in BW than in SC2 too. Current meta in SC2 is pretty straightforward actually, and the miniscule mechanical differences between players (note Korean players) does not provide strategical variety.
When i talk about playstyles i don't mean exatcly build orders or openers. But rather how the game progressed what moves player made, and how he progressed throughout the match. Agressive playstyles and defensive playstyles were both viable. For example zerg could be more tricky than in SC2(how many times did u see drops being used in last year lol). Same wise with Protoss in BW (shuttle/reaver, templars yadayada). The only race that gained variety compared to BW is Terran, which resembles BW Protoss a lot.
On May 29 2014 08:25 electronic voyeur wrote: I don't recall exactly, but I remember it is almost a thing of lore among Broodwars fans that Flash played one game building hundreds of turrets just to nullify an enemy.
On May 29 2014 17:41 googolplex wrote: Now comes SC2. The biggest problem about SC2 is that it comes on this retarded triple expansion. Because of this, prolevel games are unstable simply because the game is not finished yet. New patches are being done. Incessant whining and crying happens. Nerfs and buffs disrupt presently held metagames. As a result, there is no stable metagama or even playstyle that could guarantee domination, not even with Flash`s mechanics and starsense.
I think that the "unstability" you speak of allows players to show who has the superior STRATEGIC mindset and in a real time STRATEGY game that's a good thing. Players like TAiLS and Elfi aren't mechanically brilliant, but they're so good at coming up with new builds and strategies that they manage to remain relevant, and I think that's a good thing. I never really liked playing BW because mechanics were emphasised too much relative to strategy. Mechanics obviously are important and do need to be important, but strategy should always be the most important element of a strategy game and I don't think that was the case in BW due to the insane mechanical demands.
EDIT:
Elephant In The Room: Never forgive, never forget. MC is still stomping face and taking cheques! :D
Strategy isn't fun to watch. It's the micro, macro, and tactics that create excitement. One can argue the fact that players like Elfi, TAiLs are relevant is what's wrong with SC2.
Icefisher is crazy cool because how different and ground breaking it was
On May 29 2014 17:41 googolplex wrote: Now comes SC2. The biggest problem about SC2 is that it comes on this retarded triple expansion. Because of this, prolevel games are unstable simply because the game is not finished yet. New patches are being done. Incessant whining and crying happens. Nerfs and buffs disrupt presently held metagames. As a result, there is no stable metagama or even playstyle that could guarantee domination, not even with Flash`s mechanics and starsense.
I think that the "unstability" you speak of allows players to show who has the superior STRATEGIC mindset and in a real time STRATEGY game that's a good thing. Players like TAiLS and Elfi aren't mechanically brilliant, but they're so good at coming up with new builds and strategies that they manage to remain relevant, and I think that's a good thing. I never really liked playing BW because mechanics were emphasised too much relative to strategy. Mechanics obviously are important and do need to be important, but strategy should always be the most important element of a strategy game and I don't think that was the case in BW due to the insane mechanical demands.
EDIT:
Elephant In The Room: Never forgive, never forget. MC is still stomping face and taking cheques! :D
There were inferior mechanical players stomping mechanical geniuses in BW too (Prime example Savior). Arguably there were more playstyles in BW than in SC2 too. Current meta in SC2 is pretty straightforward actually, and the miniscule mechanical differences between players (note Korean players) does not provide strategical variety.
When i talk about playstyles i don't mean exatcly build orders or openers. But rather how the game progressed what moves player made, and how he progressed throughout the match. Agressive playstyles and defensive playstyles were both viable. For example zerg could be more tricky than in SC2(how many times did u see drops being used in last year lol). Same wise with Protoss in BW (shuttle/reaver, templars yadayada). The only race that gained variety compared to BW is Terran, which resembles BW Protoss a lot.
I wasn't saying that strategy didn't exist in BW, I just think that Mechanics > Strategy in BW and Strategy > Mechanics in SC2 and that's the reason Flash isn't as good at SC2 as he was at BW. It's also the reason I didn't like playing BW, the mechanical entry barrier is too high for my liking and SC2 has a better balance.
This isn't close to being true. Flash was great because of his strategies and decision making. Yes, he also had very good mechanics, but so did everyone else. The only area he was really above everyone else at was macro.
On May 29 2014 17:41 googolplex wrote: Now comes SC2. The biggest problem about SC2 is that it comes on this retarded triple expansion. Because of this, prolevel games are unstable simply because the game is not finished yet. New patches are being done. Incessant whining and crying happens. Nerfs and buffs disrupt presently held metagames. As a result, there is no stable metagama or even playstyle that could guarantee domination, not even with Flash`s mechanics and starsense.
I think that the "unstability" you speak of allows players to show who has the superior STRATEGIC mindset and in a real time STRATEGY game that's a good thing. Players like TAiLS and Elfi aren't mechanically brilliant, but they're so good at coming up with new builds and strategies that they manage to remain relevant, and I think that's a good thing. I never really liked playing BW because mechanics were emphasised too much relative to strategy. Mechanics obviously are important and do need to be important, but strategy should always be the most important element of a strategy game and I don't think that was the case in BW due to the insane mechanical demands.
EDIT:
Elephant In The Room: Never forgive, never forget. MC is still stomping face and taking cheques! :D
Strategy isn't fun to watch. It's the micro, macro, and tactics that create excitement. One can argue the fact that players like Elfi, TAiLs are relevant is what's wrong with SC2.
Subjective opinion is subjective. I'd much rather watch TAiLS do something crazy that I've never seen before, and try to wrap my head around how and why it worked, than watch Rain play a mechanically excellent, but incredibly dull and standard and passive, macro game.
EDIT:
Then again, I'm a pretty non-standard, aggressive/cheesy Protoss player, so it makes sense that I appreciate TAiLS more than Rain. I find watching macro games pretty boring unless both players are playing really aggressively (that's often not the case) and I find playing macro games even worse...
I agree with your point. While I do like watching perfect solid play micro/macro wise I also like when people apply some really well thought strategy to win despite inferior mechanics.
Well my hidden point was that despite SC2 being more strategy oriented it actually became much more cutthroat in terms of efficiency than BW. In BW sometimes you had those whacky low eco or high tech games that were out of the world, few reasons why, certain mechanics and unique maps made it possible at highest level.
Games like FBH vs Savior or Jaedong (battlecruisers), Stork vs GGplay, Hiya vs Free (ghosts, nukes vs dark archon) are just examples of one of the best games ever played etc. Those games were already at a point where BW was figured out. And then we saw mass queen vs terran to counter mech became standard.
Stuff like that don't happen much in SC2, because efficiency became key, there is no space around the edge. And that space used to be mechanical play, map features, BW glitches (mineral glitching for example). And don't forget people didn't max out in BW in some games ever, while in SC2 its around 11-14 SC2 minute mark. This is also another reason why efficiency is key in SC2, because the end line happens so quick.
On May 29 2014 17:41 googolplex wrote: Now comes SC2. The biggest problem about SC2 is that it comes on this retarded triple expansion. Because of this, prolevel games are unstable simply because the game is not finished yet. New patches are being done. Incessant whining and crying happens. Nerfs and buffs disrupt presently held metagames. As a result, there is no stable metagama or even playstyle that could guarantee domination, not even with Flash`s mechanics and starsense.
I think that the "unstability" you speak of allows players to show who has the superior STRATEGIC mindset and in a real time STRATEGY game that's a good thing. Players like TAiLS and Elfi aren't mechanically brilliant, but they're so good at coming up with new builds and strategies that they manage to remain relevant, and I think that's a good thing. I never really liked playing BW because mechanics were emphasised too much relative to strategy. Mechanics obviously are important and do need to be important, but strategy should always be the most important element of a strategy game and I don't think that was the case in BW due to the insane mechanical demands.
EDIT:
Elephant In The Room: Never forgive, never forget. MC is still stomping face and taking cheques! :D
Strategy isn't fun to watch. It's the micro, macro, and tactics that create excitement. One can argue the fact that players like Elfi, TAiLs are relevant is what's wrong with SC2.
I watch sc2 mostly for the strategy, the only micro I like is the one of life.
about flash, no one mentions the fact that osl was bo1, and the gsl format is to play 3 bo3, that doesn't fit with the flash's training way, where he can focus in just one map and one matchup.
On May 29 2014 17:41 googolplex wrote: Now comes SC2. The biggest problem about SC2 is that it comes on this retarded triple expansion. Because of this, prolevel games are unstable simply because the game is not finished yet. New patches are being done. Incessant whining and crying happens. Nerfs and buffs disrupt presently held metagames. As a result, there is no stable metagama or even playstyle that could guarantee domination, not even with Flash`s mechanics and starsense.
I think that the "unstability" you speak of allows players to show who has the superior STRATEGIC mindset and in a real time STRATEGY game that's a good thing. Players like TAiLS and Elfi aren't mechanically brilliant, but they're so good at coming up with new builds and strategies that they manage to remain relevant, and I think that's a good thing. I never really liked playing BW because mechanics were emphasised too much relative to strategy. Mechanics obviously are important and do need to be important, but strategy should always be the most important element of a strategy game and I don't think that was the case in BW due to the insane mechanical demands.
EDIT:
Elephant In The Room: Never forgive, never forget. MC is still stomping face and taking cheques! :D
There were inferior mechanical players stomping mechanical geniuses in BW too (Prime example Savior). Arguably there were more playstyles in BW than in SC2 too. Current meta in SC2 is pretty straightforward actually, and the miniscule mechanical differences between players (note Korean players) does not provide strategical variety.
When i talk about playstyles i don't mean exatcly build orders or openers. But rather how the game progressed what moves player made, and how he progressed throughout the match. Agressive playstyles and defensive playstyles were both viable. For example zerg could be more tricky than in SC2(how many times did u see drops being used in last year lol). Same wise with Protoss in BW (shuttle/reaver, templars yadayada). The only race that gained variety compared to BW is Terran, which resembles BW Protoss a lot.
I wasn't saying that strategy didn't exist in BW, I just think that Mechanics > Strategy in BW and Strategy > Mechanics in SC2 and that's the reason Flash isn't as good at SC2 as he was at BW. It's also the reason I didn't like playing BW, the mechanical entry barrier is too high for my liking and SC2 has a better balance.
Well in terms of strategy, BW is much more diverse in that regard. It has much more "harassment" units in the form of Reavers, Lurker drops, Mutalisks stacks micro, better psionc storms, and vulture plays. There is also the high ground advantage that adds whole new dimensions to play. Another thing to consider is how the game is more about control resources rather than maxing out quickly.
Yeah strategies might be more important in SC2 but strategies in BW is just an another level and that's not even adding on the insane mechanical abilities on top of it.
On May 29 2014 08:25 electronic voyeur wrote: Like most of you, I joined TL at the tailend of the Broodwars era and at the beginning of the SC2 explosion. I was not keenly interested in Broodwars because I knew about the game through SC2, which is also the only version I play.
However, my curiosity led me to watch a few Broodwars games and know about its history and champions. One things struck me! Flash. He was unstoppable. He was superb. He was god. Many people (haters) credit it to his race, the Terran, which they say was responsible for most of the bonjwas (I dont know how to translate this, but looking at the history, this is used to refer to players who are dominant). But the more I watch Flash, the more I realize it is not the race, but really his style of play. He is a perfectionist. His actions are precise. He uses his tanks as an impenetrable wall. He knows how to mindgame his enemies, attacking in most creative and unexpected ways. I don't recall exactly, but I remember it is almost a thing of lore among Broodwars fans that Flash played one game building hundreds of turrets just to nullify an enemy. He will also not hesitate to be cautious and defend with a battery of tanks until he is ready to move out, all for the slightest advantage. He is creative and bold.
Now, this is the reason why Flash has so far failed to succeed in SC2. His style of play simply does not allow it. Terran is not exactly the strong defense-heavy race that it was in Broodwars. It is now weaker but with a lot more options. What hinders Flash now is the race's inability to be defensive when necessary, like Flash did with tanks and depots and Battlecruisers, and move out on strategic points to take advantage of mistakes made by the opponent. Flash cannot anymore rely on the strength of the tanks to leapfrog and strangle the enemy to death. The other races in SC2 have a lot of options to deal with this, and the general speed of SC2 itself does not permit it.
With the latest patch, If Flash played zerg, I think he would be able to optimize his skills and creativity with the Frenzy Broodlord, Ultralisk, and of course, the Swarm Host. I think zerg now has the features of what the terran race was in Broodwars.
Thanks for reading. I just wanted to share my thoughts on why Flash has so far struggled in SC2. I am reviewing the vods of other Broodwars players as well, and I will write about them in the future.
Sure Flash is not the ultimate weapon anymore. But he could very well be top 3 (after maru and innovation), and he is definitely among the top 5 Terrans (after bbyong and supernova). It's just that Terran is not among the top race. Imagine a world where only top 2 protoss/zergs would be considered successful.
Bomber, Polt, Taeja, MMA are better than Flash.
How could you not mention Bbyong? Bbyong went like 11-3 for his last 14 proleague games. Bbyong is probably the most innovative terran. Who doesn't remember his bc build vs sleep? hellbat pushes? or the impossible 4 base drop play.
I'm not sure what statistics you are citing to contradict to actual recent(within 9 months) results, Bbyong and Flash are both consistently better than Bomber and MMA.
Moreover, statistically speaking both are far better than maru in proleague as well. Polt doesn't play any korean tournaments so its hard to judge polt compared to the proleague/gsl players. So few terrans in GSL hard to descriminate any terrans in gsl. Maru has cheesed his way through the gsl for a long time, but loses to defensive players like sos and rain, which is why i think he has struggled in proleague.
Its a little frustrating that I disagree with the main post that says -"Now, this is the reason why Flash has so far failed to succeed in SC2." when Flash is considered the most successful sc2 terran in proleague despite losing so many TvP's and getting cheesed out of GSL. I'm glad that at least some other people are arguing that flash isn't doing poorly and not saying that the ultimate fix is to switch to zerg.
I've heard this argument before. Even flash has admitted he wishes he played toss. The belief that Terran has a weaker army than it did in bw; However, is a fallacy. If you don't believe me plz open the unit tester and play around with mech and widow heavy comps. It will take time before mech gets popular and maybe even longer before Flash embraces it.
On May 29 2014 17:41 googolplex wrote: Now comes SC2. The biggest problem about SC2 is that it comes on this retarded triple expansion. Because of this, prolevel games are unstable simply because the game is not finished yet. New patches are being done. Incessant whining and crying happens. Nerfs and buffs disrupt presently held metagames. As a result, there is no stable metagama or even playstyle that could guarantee domination, not even with Flash`s mechanics and starsense.
I think that the "unstability" you speak of allows players to show who has the superior STRATEGIC mindset and in a real time STRATEGY game that's a good thing. Players like TAiLS and Elfi aren't mechanically brilliant, but they're so good at coming up with new builds and strategies that they manage to remain relevant, and I think that's a good thing. I never really liked playing BW because mechanics were emphasised too much relative to strategy. Mechanics obviously are important and do need to be important, but strategy should always be the most important element of a strategy game and I don't think that was the case in BW due to the insane mechanical demands.
EDIT:
Elephant In The Room: Never forgive, never forget. MC is still stomping face and taking cheques! :D
Are you f**king serious? Do you really think sc2 superior to bw in terms of strategy requirements? I have never seen a high-level bw game where strategy was secondary to mechanics. Mechanics allowed for the strategy, but strategy was the core of the game. Even a simple Stork 2gate forge goon rush was based on perfect timing, scouting, reaction, and all elements of strategy. This strategy of course becomes more efficient with perfect mechanics. In sc2 on the other hand, you can very well just turtle or rely on brute force, regardless of strategy, and win based solely on the strength of your army.
Moreover, the instability (I said unstable, not "unstability" idiot lol) is not related to the strategy element directly, but strategy is only possible because the game is not finished yet. It's like playing a game of basketball where the rules are not complete yet, hence, to further the comparison, some people dribble and take 5 steps, some people use the elbow to get rid of a defender, and then the rules change, and the game is different again. This is the reason for the lack of parity at the highlevel. Sure, some may be consistent, some may even "hack" the system (MC). In the end though, the fact that the game is being promoted at a competitive level while it is not yet finished is a scandal! Why did we ever fall for this.
On May 29 2014 17:41 googolplex wrote: Now comes SC2. The biggest problem about SC2 is that it comes on this retarded triple expansion. Because of this, prolevel games are unstable simply because the game is not finished yet. New patches are being done. Incessant whining and crying happens. Nerfs and buffs disrupt presently held metagames. As a result, there is no stable metagama or even playstyle that could guarantee domination, not even with Flash`s mechanics and starsense.
I think that the "unstability" you speak of allows players to show who has the superior STRATEGIC mindset and in a real time STRATEGY game that's a good thing. Players like TAiLS and Elfi aren't mechanically brilliant, but they're so good at coming up with new builds and strategies that they manage to remain relevant, and I think that's a good thing. I never really liked playing BW because mechanics were emphasised too much relative to strategy. Mechanics obviously are important and do need to be important, but strategy should always be the most important element of a strategy game and I don't think that was the case in BW due to the insane mechanical demands.
EDIT:
Elephant In The Room: Never forgive, never forget. MC is still stomping face and taking cheques! :D
Are you f**king serious? Do you really think sc2 superior to bw in terms of strategy requirements? I have never seen a high-level bw game where strategy was secondary to mechanics. Mechanics allowed for the strategy, but strategy was the core of the game. Even a simple Stork 2gate forge goon rush was based on perfect timing, scouting, reaction, and all elements of strategy. This strategy of course becomes more efficient with perfect mechanics. In sc2 on the other hand, you can very well just turtle or rely on brute force, regardless of strategy, and win based solely on the strength of your army.
Moreover, the instability (I said unstable, not "unstability" idiot lol) is not related to the strategy element directly, but strategy is only possible because the game is not finished yet. It's like playing a game of basketball where the rules are not complete yet, hence, to further the comparison, some people dribble and take 5 steps, some people use the elbow to get rid of a defender, and then the rules change, and the game is different again. This is the reason for the lack of parity at the highlevel. Sure, some may be consistent, some may even "hack" the system (MC). In the end though, the fact that the game is being promoted at a competitive level while it is not yet finished is a scandal! Why did we ever fall for this.
As someone who is still bitter about the murder of bw for this rubbish they also call starcraft, I objectively think that strategy in be was more defined because of the mechanics. This means that a strategy is amplified or washed out depending on the mechanics of the player. Now, for sc2, because of things like smartcasting and the like, it becomes easy to win against strategy with just a few clicks.
On May 29 2014 17:41 googolplex wrote: Now comes SC2. The biggest problem about SC2 is that it comes on this retarded triple expansion. Because of this, prolevel games are unstable simply because the game is not finished yet. New patches are being done. Incessant whining and crying happens. Nerfs and buffs disrupt presently held metagames. As a result, there is no stable metagama or even playstyle that could guarantee domination, not even with Flash`s mechanics and starsense.
I think that the "unstability" you speak of allows players to show who has the superior STRATEGIC mindset and in a real time STRATEGY game that's a good thing. Players like TAiLS and Elfi aren't mechanically brilliant, but they're so good at coming up with new builds and strategies that they manage to remain relevant, and I think that's a good thing. I never really liked playing BW because mechanics were emphasised too much relative to strategy. Mechanics obviously are important and do need to be important, but strategy should always be the most important element of a strategy game and I don't think that was the case in BW due to the insane mechanical demands.
EDIT:
Elephant In The Room: Never forgive, never forget. MC is still stomping face and taking cheques! :D
Are you f**king serious? Do you really think sc2 superior to bw in terms of strategy requirements? I have never seen a high-level bw game where strategy was secondary to mechanics. Mechanics allowed for the strategy, but strategy was the core of the game. Even a simple Stork 2gate forge goon rush was based on perfect timing, scouting, reaction, and all elements of strategy. This strategy of course becomes more efficient with perfect mechanics. In sc2 on the other hand, you can very well just turtle or rely on brute force, regardless of strategy, and win based solely on the strength of your army.
Moreover, the instability (I said unstable, not "unstability" idiot lol) is not related to the strategy element directly, but strategy is only possible because the game is not finished yet. It's like playing a game of basketball where the rules are not complete yet, hence, to further the comparison, some people dribble and take 5 steps, some people use the elbow to get rid of a defender, and then the rules change, and the game is different again. This is the reason for the lack of parity at the highlevel. Sure, some may be consistent, some may even "hack" the system (MC). In the end though, the fact that the game is being promoted at a competitive level while it is not yet finished is a scandal! Why did we ever fall for this.
As someone who is still bitter about the murder of bw for this rubbish they also call starcraft, I objectively think that strategy in be was more defined because of the mechanics. This means that a strategy is amplified or washed out depending on the mechanics of the player. Now, for sc2, because of things like smartcasting and the like, it becomes easy to win against strategy with just a few clicks.
"Objectively" lol. TO be honest, there is really no strategy per se in sc2. Look at incontrol, he talks about strategy and timings and all that shit but is never really pull it off. Of course, his lack of skill is one big reason for it, but another is that real strategy is really not a thing in sc2 unlike in bw. force is. in bw, you can win with just 2 dropships worth of mm and micro your way to eliminate the opponents economy and tech even if he already has archons or ultras. In sc2, colossus, templar, immortal,stalker and 1a, hands off the keyboard and dance to gg (exaggeration, but you get the point).
On May 29 2014 17:41 googolplex wrote: Now comes SC2. The biggest problem about SC2 is that it comes on this retarded triple expansion. Because of this, prolevel games are unstable simply because the game is not finished yet. New patches are being done. Incessant whining and crying happens. Nerfs and buffs disrupt presently held metagames. As a result, there is no stable metagama or even playstyle that could guarantee domination, not even with Flash`s mechanics and starsense.
I think that the "unstability" you speak of allows players to show who has the superior STRATEGIC mindset and in a real time STRATEGY game that's a good thing. Players like TAiLS and Elfi aren't mechanically brilliant, but they're so good at coming up with new builds and strategies that they manage to remain relevant, and I think that's a good thing. I never really liked playing BW because mechanics were emphasised too much relative to strategy. Mechanics obviously are important and do need to be important, but strategy should always be the most important element of a strategy game and I don't think that was the case in BW due to the insane mechanical demands.
EDIT:
Elephant In The Room: Never forgive, never forget. MC is still stomping face and taking cheques! :D
Are you f**king serious? Do you really think sc2 superior to bw in terms of strategy requirements? I have never seen a high-level bw game where strategy was secondary to mechanics. Mechanics allowed for the strategy, but strategy was the core of the game. Even a simple Stork 2gate forge goon rush was based on perfect timing, scouting, reaction, and all elements of strategy. This strategy of course becomes more efficient with perfect mechanics. In sc2 on the other hand, you can very well just turtle or rely on brute force, regardless of strategy, and win based solely on the strength of your army.
Moreover, the instability (I said unstable, not "unstability" idiot lol) is not related to the strategy element directly, but strategy is only possible because the game is not finished yet. It's like playing a game of basketball where the rules are not complete yet, hence, to further the comparison, some people dribble and take 5 steps, some people use the elbow to get rid of a defender, and then the rules change, and the game is different again. This is the reason for the lack of parity at the highlevel. Sure, some may be consistent, some may even "hack" the system (MC). In the end though, the fact that the game is being promoted at a competitive level while it is not yet finished is a scandal! Why did we ever fall for this.
As someone who is still bitter about the murder of bw for this rubbish they also call starcraft, I objectively think that strategy in be was more defined because of the mechanics. This means that a strategy is amplified or washed out depending on the mechanics of the player. Now, for sc2, because of things like smartcasting and the like, it becomes easy to win against strategy with just a few clicks.
"Objectively" lol. TO be honest, there is really no strategy per se in sc2. Look at incontrol, he talks about strategy and timings and all that shit but is never really pull it off. Of course, his lack of skill is one big reason for it, but another is that real strategy is really not a thing in sc2 unlike in bw. force is. in bw, you can win with just 2 dropships worth of mm and micro your way to eliminate the opponents economy and tech even if he already has archons or ultras. In sc2, colossus, templar, immortal,stalker and 1a, hands off the keyboard and dance to gg (exaggeration, but you get the point).
And you dare question my objectivity. I think you haven't watched sc2 for a long time, amirite?
On May 29 2014 17:41 googolplex wrote: Now comes SC2. The biggest problem about SC2 is that it comes on this retarded triple expansion. Because of this, prolevel games are unstable simply because the game is not finished yet. New patches are being done. Incessant whining and crying happens. Nerfs and buffs disrupt presently held metagames. As a result, there is no stable metagama or even playstyle that could guarantee domination, not even with Flash`s mechanics and starsense.
I think that the "unstability" you speak of allows players to show who has the superior STRATEGIC mindset and in a real time STRATEGY game that's a good thing. Players like TAiLS and Elfi aren't mechanically brilliant, but they're so good at coming up with new builds and strategies that they manage to remain relevant, and I think that's a good thing. I never really liked playing BW because mechanics were emphasised too much relative to strategy. Mechanics obviously are important and do need to be important, but strategy should always be the most important element of a strategy game and I don't think that was the case in BW due to the insane mechanical demands.
EDIT:
Elephant In The Room: Never forgive, never forget. MC is still stomping face and taking cheques! :D
Are you f**king serious? Do you really think sc2 superior to bw in terms of strategy requirements? I have never seen a high-level bw game where strategy was secondary to mechanics. Mechanics allowed for the strategy, but strategy was the core of the game. Even a simple Stork 2gate forge goon rush was based on perfect timing, scouting, reaction, and all elements of strategy. This strategy of course becomes more efficient with perfect mechanics. In sc2 on the other hand, you can very well just turtle or rely on brute force, regardless of strategy, and win based solely on the strength of your army.
Moreover, the instability (I said unstable, not "unstability" idiot lol) is not related to the strategy element directly, but strategy is only possible because the game is not finished yet. It's like playing a game of basketball where the rules are not complete yet, hence, to further the comparison, some people dribble and take 5 steps, some people use the elbow to get rid of a defender, and then the rules change, and the game is different again. This is the reason for the lack of parity at the highlevel. Sure, some may be consistent, some may even "hack" the system (MC). In the end though, the fact that the game is being promoted at a competitive level while it is not yet finished is a scandal! Why did we ever fall for this.
As someone who is still bitter about the murder of bw for this rubbish they also call starcraft, I objectively think that strategy in be was more defined because of the mechanics. This means that a strategy is amplified or washed out depending on the mechanics of the player. Now, for sc2, because of things like smartcasting and the like, it becomes easy to win against strategy with just a few clicks.
"Objectively" lol. TO be honest, there is really no strategy per se in sc2. Look at incontrol, he talks about strategy and timings and all that shit but is never really pull it off. Of course, his lack of skill is one big reason for it, but another is that real strategy is really not a thing in sc2 unlike in bw. force is. in bw, you can win with just 2 dropships worth of mm and micro your way to eliminate the opponents economy and tech even if he already has archons or ultras. In sc2, colossus, templar, immortal,stalker and 1a, hands off the keyboard and dance to gg (exaggeration, but you get the point).
And you dare question my objectivity. I think you haven't watched sc2 for a long time, amirite?
I watched a few in the last few days. Protoss is still 1a brute force race, which is why I think Flash should really switch.
Why are people saying he should switch to Protoss? Zerg's Swarm Host+Spore turtlefest seems to be the closest playstyle to his BW terran. If that fails he can always try the Avilo.
On May 29 2014 17:41 googolplex wrote: Now comes SC2. The biggest problem about SC2 is that it comes on this retarded triple expansion. Because of this, prolevel games are unstable simply because the game is not finished yet. New patches are being done. Incessant whining and crying happens. Nerfs and buffs disrupt presently held metagames. As a result, there is no stable metagama or even playstyle that could guarantee domination, not even with Flash`s mechanics and starsense.
I think that the "unstability" you speak of allows players to show who has the superior STRATEGIC mindset and in a real time STRATEGY game that's a good thing. Players like TAiLS and Elfi aren't mechanically brilliant, but they're so good at coming up with new builds and strategies that they manage to remain relevant, and I think that's a good thing. I never really liked playing BW because mechanics were emphasised too much relative to strategy. Mechanics obviously are important and do need to be important, but strategy should always be the most important element of a strategy game and I don't think that was the case in BW due to the insane mechanical demands.
EDIT:
Elephant In The Room: Never forgive, never forget. MC is still stomping face and taking cheques! :D
Are you f**king serious? Do you really think sc2 superior to bw in terms of strategy requirements? I have never seen a high-level bw game where strategy was secondary to mechanics. Mechanics allowed for the strategy, but strategy was the core of the game. Even a simple Stork 2gate forge goon rush was based on perfect timing, scouting, reaction, and all elements of strategy. This strategy of course becomes more efficient with perfect mechanics. In sc2 on the other hand, you can very well just turtle or rely on brute force, regardless of strategy, and win based solely on the strength of your army.
Moreover, the instability (I said unstable, not "unstability" idiot lol) is not related to the strategy element directly, but strategy is only possible because the game is not finished yet. It's like playing a game of basketball where the rules are not complete yet, hence, to further the comparison, some people dribble and take 5 steps, some people use the elbow to get rid of a defender, and then the rules change, and the game is different again. This is the reason for the lack of parity at the highlevel. Sure, some may be consistent, some may even "hack" the system (MC). In the end though, the fact that the game is being promoted at a competitive level while it is not yet finished is a scandal! Why did we ever fall for this.
As someone who is still bitter about the murder of bw for this rubbish they also call starcraft, I objectively think that strategy in be was more defined because of the mechanics. This means that a strategy is amplified or washed out depending on the mechanics of the player. Now, for sc2, because of things like smartcasting and the like, it becomes easy to win against strategy with just a few clicks.
"Objectively" lol. TO be honest, there is really no strategy per se in sc2. Look at incontrol, he talks about strategy and timings and all that shit but is never really pull it off. Of course, his lack of skill is one big reason for it, but another is that real strategy is really not a thing in sc2 unlike in bw. force is. in bw, you can win with just 2 dropships worth of mm and micro your way to eliminate the opponents economy and tech even if he already has archons or ultras. In sc2, colossus, templar, immortal,stalker and 1a, hands off the keyboard and dance to gg (exaggeration, but you get the point).
And you dare question my objectivity. I think you haven't watched sc2 for a long time, amirite?
I watched a few in the last few days. Protoss is still 1a brute force race, which is why I think Flash should really switch.
I think you have a point when you say that it is a mistake to hold a professional-level competition when the game is not even finished yet, but I also think that you need to brush up on the recent SC2 games. I read your posts and I feel like you have not even watched a game beyond 2012.
On May 30 2014 22:09 Morbidius wrote: Why are people saying he should switch to Protoss? Zerg's Swarm Host+Spore turtlefest seems to be the closest playstyle to his BW terran. If that fails he can always try the Avilo.
On May 30 2014 22:09 Morbidius wrote: Why are people saying he should switch to Protoss? Zerg's Swarm Host+Spore turtlefest seems to be the closest playstyle to his BW terran. If that fails he can always try the Avilo.
wow how ignorant about Flash. He is not that type of player. His strength is strategy, mindgames and macro, not turtling. I have to call you out on this subtle jab.
On May 30 2014 22:09 Morbidius wrote: Why are people saying he should switch to Protoss? Zerg's Swarm Host+Spore turtlefest seems to be the closest playstyle to his BW terran. If that fails he can always try the Avilo.
wow how ignorant about Flash. He is not that type of player. His strength is strategy, mindgames and macro, not turtling. I have to call you out on this subtle jab.
Flash can't really switch though. He is an Iconic Terran. While it might marginally improve his SC2 success, it doesn't feel quite right. It's like if Slayers Boxer played Zerg or Protoss, it would feel wrong.
On May 30 2014 22:09 Morbidius wrote: Why are people saying he should switch to Protoss? Zerg's Swarm Host+Spore turtlefest seems to be the closest playstyle to his BW terran. If that fails he can always try the Avilo.
Anyway, any link to this swarmhost + spore game? who plays this style?
On May 30 2014 22:09 Morbidius wrote: Why are people saying he should switch to Protoss? Zerg's Swarm Host+Spore turtlefest seems to be the closest playstyle to his BW terran. If that fails he can always try the Avilo.
wow how ignorant about Flash. He is not that type of player. His strength is strategy, mindgames and macro, not turtling. I have to call you out on this subtle jab.
It was not meant as an insult, Flash's positional/defensive play is absolutely superb, i don't think anyone can deny that.
On May 30 2014 22:09 Morbidius wrote: Why are people saying he should switch to Protoss? Zerg's Swarm Host+Spore turtlefest seems to be the closest playstyle to his BW terran. If that fails he can always try the Avilo.
wow how ignorant about Flash. He is not that type of player. His strength is strategy, mindgames and macro, not turtling. I have to call you out on this subtle jab.
It was not meant as an insult, Flash's positional/defensive play is absolutely superb, i don't think anyone can deny that.
So, I havent been following the games in some months. Care to link these swarmhost + spore games? Im curious, thanks
On May 29 2014 17:41 googolplex wrote: Now comes SC2. The biggest problem about SC2 is that it comes on this retarded triple expansion. Because of this, prolevel games are unstable simply because the game is not finished yet. New patches are being done. Incessant whining and crying happens. Nerfs and buffs disrupt presently held metagames. As a result, there is no stable metagama or even playstyle that could guarantee domination, not even with Flash`s mechanics and starsense.
I think that the "unstability" you speak of allows players to show who has the superior STRATEGIC mindset and in a real time STRATEGY game that's a good thing. Players like TAiLS and Elfi aren't mechanically brilliant, but they're so good at coming up with new builds and strategies that they manage to remain relevant, and I think that's a good thing. I never really liked playing BW because mechanics were emphasised too much relative to strategy. Mechanics obviously are important and do need to be important, but strategy should always be the most important element of a strategy game and I don't think that was the case in BW due to the insane mechanical demands.
EDIT:
Elephant In The Room: Never forgive, never forget. MC is still stomping face and taking cheques! :D
Are you f**king serious? Do you really think sc2 superior to bw in terms of strategy requirements? I have never seen a high-level bw game where strategy was secondary to mechanics. Mechanics allowed for the strategy, but strategy was the core of the game. Even a simple Stork 2gate forge goon rush was based on perfect timing, scouting, reaction, and all elements of strategy. This strategy of course becomes more efficient with perfect mechanics. In sc2 on the other hand, you can very well just turtle or rely on brute force, regardless of strategy, and win based solely on the strength of your army.
Moreover, the instability (I said unstable, not "unstability" idiot lol) is not related to the strategy element directly, but strategy is only possible because the game is not finished yet. It's like playing a game of basketball where the rules are not complete yet, hence, to further the comparison, some people dribble and take 5 steps, some people use the elbow to get rid of a defender, and then the rules change, and the game is different again. This is the reason for the lack of parity at the highlevel. Sure, some may be consistent, some may even "hack" the system (MC). In the end though, the fact that the game is being promoted at a competitive level while it is not yet finished is a scandal! Why did we ever fall for this.
As someone who is still bitter about the murder of bw for this rubbish they also call starcraft, I objectively think that strategy in be was more defined because of the mechanics. This means that a strategy is amplified or washed out depending on the mechanics of the player. Now, for sc2, because of things like smartcasting and the like, it becomes easy to win against strategy with just a few clicks.
"Objectively" lol. TO be honest, there is really no strategy per se in sc2. Look at incontrol, he talks about strategy and timings and all that shit but is never really pull it off. Of course, his lack of skill is one big reason for it, but another is that real strategy is really not a thing in sc2 unlike in bw. force is. in bw, you can win with just 2 dropships worth of mm and micro your way to eliminate the opponents economy and tech even if he already has archons or ultras. In sc2, colossus, templar, immortal,stalker and 1a, hands off the keyboard and dance to gg (exaggeration, but you get the point).
but that is not a "real strategy". that's being cute.
true, BW is a real strategy game, while I've come to realise that a lot of "strategy" in sc2 just involves altering timings and hoping for a misread.
When you talk strategy you should consider Economy, which is difficult to manage in BW and super simplified in sc2. If you give me 2 hours (maybe even less) to practice a 3CC build in a no rush game I will be able to macro my way to 200/200 maybe 30 secs short of Flash. You tell me if any random C+ iccup player can pick up a mouse and macro to almost near a pro benchmark. Not happening son. This requires not purely mechanics but also a sense of build flow and management, there is solid proof because some 250 apm terrans are still superbad at eco management.
Also you should consider positions, how they are gained and lost. Easier to watch in action with flash vs fanta rather than try to explain, but in a war the process of opening and maintaining fronts that stretch for miles are important. It's really quite absurd to see an entire army packed into a blob moving across the battlefield at high speed.
Then we can talk about strategic options, because Terran in BW had so many standard options from pure bio, pure mech, biomech, valkonic, 2 port, fast vultures w/ mines...
In the next expansion sc2 should really reconsider how new units will interact to create new possibilities in overall strategy instead of 'filling holes' or 'expanding micro requirements'. It's true for example that SHs created a new strategy, but it involves infamous 2 hour long snoozefests.
EPT
