EPTStarcraft is fun , but i would like to try some new fun RTS games with friends .
The future of RTS games - Page 11
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Keep "my game is better than yours"-slapfights out of this. If the discussion devolves into simple bashing, this thread will be closed. | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
Starcraft is fun , but i would like to try some new fun RTS games with friends . | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On May 14 2014 21:55 Ctone23 wrote: Why are people stretching what the word "niche" means? RTS games have plenty of diversity, both in terms of players and strategies, but people get all kinds of butt rustled when they see another game with 3x the viewer count. I don't see why that matters. I always think of American sports, some are just more popular than others, but that doesn't mean the less popular sports are any less complicated. You completely miss the point. I am saying it is bad that rts players don't really have other options than sc2 (well there obviously are older games, but that isn't really the same). Meanwhile other genres get new games on an almost monthly basis, that fact alone is bad. On May 14 2014 21:41 SatedSC2 wrote: Do you really think that there aren't any SC2 players who have their own unique style when playing the game..? You have people like TAiLS who are known for coming up with crazy builds designed to manipulate the metagame, people like MC who are known for their amazing timing-attacks and micro, people like Bomber who are known for ridiculous mechanics and unit production, people like Goody who are known for winning games without anyone actually knowing how they win games, and people like Elfi who are known for quite possibly being insane  EDIT: In order to stop being niche then RTS would somehow have to be a mainstream genre and it will never be a mainstream genre because the very definition of an RTS means that the games aren't accessible enough. To make an accessible RTS you would have to essentially make a bad RTS game because you'd have to strip away a lot of the complexity that seems to make this community think that RTS games are good in the first place. That's why I don't think it's a bad thing that RTS games are niche, because I don't think that compromising on complexity is worth it. I simply don't think that it is possible to make a mainstream RTS game that's also good, and so I'm happy with the genre remaining niche and remaining one were titles come out very sporadically. I mean, another title or couple of titles to compete with SC2 would be great, but I don't think that those titles would be mainstream either. We'd still be a relatively small community, and I don't see a problem with that. I guess this is now more about how we define "niche". I don't have a problem with not being the biggest genre either, i don't care if people like to play fps/mobas more than rts games per se. But i think it is alarming that rts games are so unpopular that noone really even tries to produce one anymore. That is kinda too niche for my liking :D Also i am not sure if you have to dumb down the rts genre to have a "mainstream" rts game, you just have to prioritize certain aspects that such a rts game has. There is no need that the 1vs1 ladder has to be the most important thing. Give "casual players" other reasons to play this rts game and i am sure it could be really successful (it doesn't have to be the next lol, i think that is the part we both agree on  ) | ||
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ETisME
12275 Posts
On May 14 2014 21:58 Incognoto wrote: The most annoying part is that you had great old titles were far from being niche when they were released. A lot of my friends in high school had played RTS games when they were released. I had friends irl who had played Aoe3, Lotr battle for middle earth, AoC, AoM. If people like my friends irl (who were all terrible at rts), who aren't really into video games as much as I am, picked up RTS titles in the past (admittedly, only the most mainstream RTS), I'm fairly certain the RTS was more mainstream than niche when those titles were published. I highly doubt any 13-18 year olds play RTS anymore as of today, or if they do they play SC2. Nowadays when I go to uni, it's very easy to find people discussing LoL (don't hear much about dota 2, which is surprising, doubtlessly those people are there somewhere). RTS has become a niche with the advent of MOBAs. Only SC2 resists and it's doing a swell job of it. It's pretty much the saving grace for RTS. But it's pretty much the only active RTS which isn't 10 years old and this game is like 4 years old. E: Just so we're clear, I don't care about large viewer counts. People's taste changes and it doesn't have to do with the amount of choices in the genre. One good example is how recent games are all being dumbed down, however the demand for hardcore games are enough to put up games like Dark souls to serve this niche market, but even then, the demon soul is said to be more catered for more hardcore players due to more unforgiving mechanics. RTS pie just isn't big enough for any other dev to invest for another RTS games, the demand just isn't there. Look at RA3, AoE3, none of them lasted nearly as long as their previous title. There is no correlation between MOBA rises and RTS declining popularity other than that. Another good example is Sims, there hasn't been any other competitor in that genre, yet it is still a pretty niche market because only one game serves all but most are satisfied enough that no new games are introduced as a competitor. This goes same for SC2 and RTS. The demand simply isn't there. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On May 14 2014 22:08 ETisME wrote: People's taste changes and it doesn't have to do with the amount of choices in the genre. One good example is how recent games are all being dumbed down, however the demand for hardcore games are enough to put up games like Dark souls to serve this niche market, but even then, the demon soul is said to be more catered for more hardcore players due to more unforgiving mechanics. RTS pie just isn't big enough for any other dev to invest for another RTS games, the demand just isn't there. Look at RA3, AoE3, none of them lasted nearly as long as their previous title. There is no correlation between MOBA rises and RTS declining popularity other than that. Another good example is Sims, there hasn't been any other competitor in that genre, yet it is still a pretty niche market because only one game serves all but most are satisfied enough that no new games are introduced as a competitor. This goes same for SC2 and RTS. The demand simply isn't there. I actually think that is no good reasoning. The demand isn't there cause it isn't "done right" imo. I mean look at mobas, there was no "demand" before lol either one could argue. Then lol came and did "new things" (both in gameplay AND in the business part) and from one moment to the other people wanted mobas and studios developed them. I am not sure how many players the "little mobas" have right now, but i would think it has to be enough? | ||
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Ctone23
United States1839 Posts
On May 14 2014 22:06 The_Red_Viper wrote: You completely miss the point. I am saying it is bad that rts players don't really have other options than sc2 (well there obviously are older games, but that isn't really the same). Meanwhile other genres get new games on an almost monthly basis, that fact alone is bad. No I understand what you mean, I was speaking more broadly then directly at you, probably shouldn't have quoted you but I didn't agree with your statement that being a niche is bad if you want diversity. Even if you make a lot of quality RTS games, I still think the genre is a niche within the gaming world. I usually try out new RTS games that come out (when and if they do) and the overwhelming feeling I get is that Blizzard is 10x the developer, each and every time. I'm not saying it can't be done, but I am of the opinion that a quality RTS game takes a lot of time,money, and effort to be successful. We the community demand a lot from an RTS, and rightfully so, something I don't see other RTS developers being capable of at the moment. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On May 14 2014 22:08 ETisME wrote: People's taste changes and it doesn't have to do with the amount of choices in the genre. One good example is how recent games are all being dumbed down, however the demand for hardcore games are enough to put up games like Dark souls to serve this niche market, but even then, the demon soul is said to be more catered for more hardcore players due to more unforgiving mechanics. RTS pie just isn't big enough for any other dev to invest for another RTS games, the demand just isn't there. Look at RA3, AoE3, none of them lasted nearly as long as their previous title. There is no correlation between MOBA rises and RTS declining popularity other than that. Another good example is Sims, there hasn't been any other competitor in that genre, yet it is still a pretty niche market because only one game serves all but most are satisfied enough that no new games are introduced as a competitor. This goes same for SC2 and RTS. The demand simply isn't there. Yeah this actually makes to me. Afaik FPS games remain quite popular even if MOBAs are rising in popularity as well. RTS is just slowly declining. Well, I don't know if RTS is really declining. The foreign SC2 scene right now is probably as big (maybe bigger?) than the entire RTS scene back in 2006. It's as if all the RTS communities have converged to SC2. Is the demand in RTS really declining? SC2 is doing quite well. | ||
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ETisME
12275 Posts
On May 14 2014 22:14 The_Red_Viper wrote: I actually think that is no good reasoning. The demand isn't there cause it isn't "done right" imo. I mean look at mobas, there was no "demand" before lol either one could argue. Then lol came and did "new things" (both in gameplay AND in the business part) and from one moment to the other people wanted mobas and studios developed them. I am not sure how many players the "little mobas" have right now, but i would think it has to be enough? that's not true. LoL success was largely built upon Dota. The market for MOBA was always big, LoL developer guinsoo, marketed himself as one of the developers (or creator? I forgot) of Dota. LoL was the game that really pushed the genre to be more than just Dota, just a custom map of WC3. Dota 2 also barely received much change to anything compared to Dota 1 and is mega big only because valve introduced the business side of things. The game play changes in LoL only really introduced new players and separated itself from Dota | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
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314PY
8 Posts
In the same way, removin the building part of the game will makes all games more uniform and then boring. Moreover, giving the intels about what units are going to be warped destroy any mindgame possibility. Eventually, I wouldn't be surprised when there already exist some arcade games similar to what youo are discribing. | ||
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Ottoman042
United States35 Posts
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urboss
Austria1223 Posts
On May 14 2014 22:29 314PY wrote: By removing the economical part of the game, your game won't be a strategic game any more, it will only become a pure tactic game like chess or go. In the same way, removin the building part of the game will makes all games more uniform and then boring. Moreover, giving the intels about what units are going to be warped destroy any mindgame possibility. Eventually, I wouldn't be surprised when there already exist some arcade games similar to what youo are discribing. If we remove the economy part, it doesn't necessarily mean that we end with an arcader. We would have to strongly emphasize the tactical part. You can do that with good unit design and proper terrain design. A good example for a tactical game that got popular is World of Tanks. (Which is also a prime example of how free-to-play and good execution can make any game concept popular) Also, you could borrow elements from Counterstrike: For example, let both teams have different objectives. | ||
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packrat386
United States5077 Posts
On May 14 2014 22:03 raga4ka wrote: There aren't many new good RTS games to be honest that's the biggest reason why rts is unpopular. No CnC generals 2 , no age of empires 4 , no other new sequels to games like cossacs , age of mythlogy , empire earth , some LOTR style strategies . RTS that were fun back in those days . Starcraft is fun , but i would like to try some new fun RTS games with friends . I'm with you there. My friends and I recently got ourselves some cracked versions of AoM because its the kind of game that is fun to play with people. They're releasing a remastered version of the game on Steam, maybe that will take off a bit. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On May 14 2014 22:50 packrat386 wrote: I'm with you there. My friends and I recently got ourselves some cracked versions of AoM because its the kind of game that is fun to play with people. They're releasing a remastered version of the game on Steam, maybe that will take off a bit. If steam is anything to go by apparently AoM is doing quite well. Just like Aoe2 HD. RE shot themselves in the foot when they made aoeo instead of aoe4. Thing is, I think people have this general misconception that RTS is supposed to be a very hard, mechanical-based game. Which is definitely true when playing competitive RTS at a high level, but RTS can be just plain fun to play casually. That's part of the reason SC2 didn't quite hit off as much as it could have, with their ridiculous emphasis on 1v1 and bnet 2.0 which was also bad. If game devs could figure out how to emulate the fun, old RTS games of the past, they could make a hit. There's just so much potential it's kind of a shame. ^^ | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
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urboss
Austria1223 Posts
(excluding expansions) 1992 Dune 2 1994 Warcraft 1995 Command & Conquer 1995 Warcraft 2 1996 C&C Red Alert 1996 Z 1997 Age of Empires 1997 Dark Reign 1997 Enemy Nations 1997 Total Annihiliation 1998 StarCraft 1999 Age of Empires 2 1999 Warzone 2100 2001 C&C Red Alert 2 2001 Empire Earth 2001 Stronghold 2001 Cossacks 2002 Age of Mythology 2002 Warcraft 3 2003 C&C Generals 2003 Rise of Nations 2004 LotR: Middle Earth 2004 Dawn of War 2005 Age of Empires 3 2005 Empire Earth 2 2006 Company of Heroes 2006 LotR: Middle Earth 2 2007 C&C 3 2007 Supreme Commander 2007 World in Conflict 2008 C&C: Red Alert 3 2009 Dawn of War 2 2010 StarCraft 2 2012 Wargame Makes me feel nostalgic... Note that most of these titles are primarily single player games with a multiplayer option. Times have changed! Classic RTS game developers are caught in a conundrum: It's not sustainable anymore to release RTS games with focus on single player. Yet it's also very hard to sell a build-based RTS game that is only multiplayer. | ||
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Phaenoman
568 Posts
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Falling
Canada11265 Posts
RTS pie just isn't big enough for any other dev to invest for another RTS games, the demand just isn't there. Look at RA3, AoE3, none of them lasted nearly as long as their previous title. That's because AoE3 sucks compared to AoE2. Don't know about RA3, but I'll still pull out AoE2 on occaison to play single-player or multi-player. But AoE3 I hardly enjoyed the first time. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 14 2014 23:06 urboss wrote: Here is a list of all RTS games with a metascore of above 80%: (excluding expansions) 1992 Dune 2 1994 Warcraft 1995 Command & Conquer 1995 Warcraft 2 1996 C&C Red Alert 1996 Z 1997 Age of Empires 1997 Dark Reign 1997 Enemy Nations 1997 Total Annihiliation 1998 StarCraft 1999 Age of Empires 2 1999 C&C Tiberian Sun 1999 Warzone 2100 2001 C&C Red Alert 2 2001 Empire Earth 2001 Stronghold 2001 Cossacks 2002 Age of Mythology 2002 Warcraft 3 2003 C&C Generals 2003 Rise of Nations 2004 LotR: Middle Earth 2004 Dawn of War 2005 Age of Empires 3 2005 Empire Earth 2 2006 Company of Heroes 2006 LotR: Middle Earth 2 2007 C&C 3 2007 Supreme Commander 2007 World in Conflict 2008 C&C: Red Alert 3 2009 Dawn of War 2 2010 StarCraft 2 Makes me feel nostalgic... Note that most of these titles are primarily single player games with a multiplayer option. Times have changed! yeah, and the basic control options have all been developed between 92 and 95. The ways how to select and command units and buildings, how to produce and what the units can do - attack and move and maybe a spell or two - have been nearly untouched since then. Meanwhile other genres have change soooo much... think about how RPGs used to be endless lists of numbers. How much more complex NPCs can be in those. How many combat systems have been tried... Meanwhile SC2 still uses nearly the same Interfaces we had in WC1. | ||
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ETisME
12275 Posts
On May 14 2014 22:29 Incognoto wrote: etisme, assuming that someone out of the blue just comes out with a completely new RTS, would you say that this RTS would be a flop? It wouldn't sell and people wouldn't play it for longer than maybe a year? This would be the case because there aren't enough people interested in RTS or because SC2 is just better than this new RTS, so people would just stick to SC2? well I can't really make any statement, a completely new RTS doesn't necessary will flop, but for there to be a whole new RTS, there must exist a market that looks profitable at the very least, won't you say? I guess what you want to argue about is that it can be just that there is no competition for SC2 and so the RTS scene looks dead? But if there is such a high demand for an alternative to SC2, I am not seeing it, despite how much complains there are. The closest is probably starbow, which has probably the most support a Mod can ever hope for (axiom+TB followers and basetradeTV) and even some of the most popular figureheads in SC2 scene streaming and promoting it but still unable to make any breakthrough in terms of viewership (take away axiom/basetrade TV followers) and even the game itself is lacking in players in general. I believe SC2 serves as a game that cater to traditional standard RTS game and it has taken up most of the market there is there already. But there might still be room for other RTS that are extremely innovative, something like CoH or DoW style, but these games are rare and even when one appear, it doesn't mean the popularity of RTS can go back to its prime years. of cause there can be still rooms for other non-SC style RTS like red alert and AoE but both have failed pretty horribly last time and I highly doubt any company will be willing to invest again anytime soon and prefer to re-release in HD remaster instead | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On May 14 2014 19:56 Wombat_NI wrote: Exactly, I played BW casually for years. Played WC3 for much of my school life and have played SC2 since it came out. There's not much I want in terms of MOBA elements and I'd argue that MOBAs aren't a big genre, there are big titles in LoL and DOTA, hell HoN has declined massively. Accept you have a certain type of gamer who is into RTS and appeal to them, find a way to get more money out of them individually perhaps. Here's my question about MOBAS. Will people buy them at $60 a copy? | ||
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