EPTThe future of RTS games - Page 9
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Keep "my game is better than yours"-slapfights out of this. If the discussion devolves into simple bashing, this thread will be closed. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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Lizarb
Denmark307 Posts
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Caladan
Germany1238 Posts
On May 14 2014 15:40 JimmyJRaynor wrote: i subscribe to this opinion. RTS is a weird kind of fun. its a "hard work" kind of fun. i'd describe Borderlands 2 as being the exact opposite kind of fun. Zany silly idiotic fun. Oddly enough, Blizzard always tries to capture Zany, Silly Idiotic fun in all their games. And, largely they succeed. But, competitive 1v1 RTS just can not be that kind of fun by the very nature of the game. There is nothing Blizzard or anyone else can do about it.... "it is what it is" Well, to be honest, that "hard work" thing seems more like a SC2 thing/problem. That feeling wasn't really that strong in sc1. And in some popular other RTS games, like AoE or C&C I never had this feeling. So, actually yes you can have easy evening fun with RTS. But it's hard with SC2's current ladder-centered system. Overall I think, people in this thread focus too much on RTS = SC2 with SC2 actually more like being the exception of RTS. Also RTS used to be one of the most popular genres in gaming, but not anymore, especially since the switch classic WC3 -> dota this has switched. What is needed for RTS to once again become a popular genre - more fun-centered games! Just look at the old games, it is possible. And just build in something like a "hard mode" for e-sports guys. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On May 14 2014 17:50 Lizarb wrote: Not sure I agree with instant action being a Pro under MOBA's. Unless we are talking Heroes. From the little I have seen there is lots of creep/gold farming in the beginning of most MOBA games. For casuals the lanes are action. They might deny it to save face--but they think its action. | ||
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On May 14 2014 17:58 Thieving Magpie wrote: For casuals the lanes are action. They might deny it to save face--but they think its action. I'm very active when I lane. Laning isnt just for farming, its also for denying farming. | ||
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Estancia
Korea (South)335 Posts
I swear some battles in SCII last shorter than full 1-sided gank in MOBA. I miss those long epic battles in BW, notably the TvZ where zerg tries his best to break through each layers of seige line. Those allowed both players to display insane micro skills and multitasking throughout its minute long combat (Terran players casting defensive matrix, microing science vessels away from scourges, zerg players casting dark swarms and controlling his max out army), and kept the viewers tense as they waited for the victor. In SCII units just die too fast for most players to gain anything from micro, also reduces the fun gained from watching battles. Also, because units didn't die too fast, you didn't have like one scenario changing the entire outcome of game (like 5 hellions getting in your mineral line, one whole clump of unit getting fungalled). You could have vultures get into your mineral line, but you still had time to react unless your forces were completely out of position, and you didn't have any defence at the mineral line. Basically I wish units didn't die so fast, clumped up less and battles last generally longer. But to do this they're probably going to need a new game or sth as its going to require huge redesign in games | ||
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marcesr
Germany1383 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27451 Posts
On May 14 2014 18:19 marcesr wrote: People tend to forget that Blizzard fucked up HARD with bnet 2.0. Who knows how successfull SC2 would have been if that didnt happen... 100% agreed, IMO the single biggest fuckup. The lack of clans, the awkwardness of chatting in game etc made it an infinitely worse experience for me socially than WC3. The decision to get rid of unique user IDs and the ability to create and name custom lobbies were just bad moves IMO @Sated, agree with that sentiment. Frankly the influx of casual players without any emotional investment or knowledge of a title isn't necessarily a bad thing, but sheer numbers and the white noise it brings can be, see: Twitch chat | ||
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Boonbag
France3318 Posts
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urboss
Austria1223 Posts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_tactics ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/cFeLiSa.png) cRTS ..................... classical RTS RTT ....................... real-time tactics The problem is that neither Blizzard nor any other big developers ever got their hands dirty with RTT. Most current RTT titles are not really made for casual gamers. I think that you could make them more popular with some light MOBA elements. | ||
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
On May 14 2014 17:47 SatedSC2 wrote: Can someone explain to me why it is a bad thing if RTS games remain a niche? I think that if RTS games become more mainstream then they will lose what makes them entertaining for those people who currently play them. Yes, they can be horribly complex. Yes, they can be really difficult to get into. Yes, you will lose lots of games in a row before you start winning. And yes, it's even harder to master than it is to learn. But that's what the people who play RTS games are looking for, something complicated. Because there hasn't been a good new RTS ever since Starcraft 2: WoL came out four years ago. It also doesn't help that Blizzard's main competitors (Redwood, Ensemble Studios, Relic etc.) either went bankrupt, got shut down or suffered financial difficulties. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On May 14 2014 19:17 SatedSC2 wrote: I don't see the problem with that. I asked for someone to explain to me why it is a bad thing if RTS games remain a niche; all you've done is point out exactly why it is a niche. In any case, the complexity of RTS games means that you only need a good RTS to come out very rarely. People were still coming up with new things towards the end of WoL, people will still be figuring out HotS by the time LotV rolls around, and then LotV will still carry us for a good few years after that. I'm really not that worried. I think SC2 is in a good place right now (Swarm Hosts aside) so s'all good IMO. No, maartendq hit the nail right on the head. The fact that RTS is becoming a niche compared to video games (remember that until recently video games themselves were niche) means that game devs aren't really inclined to make a good RTS, since making a good MOBA or a good FPS would be way more profitable. So we, the RTS players, are going to have no new titles to work with. That's why RTS games being niche could be a problem, we won't get any good new titles. RTS games are complex to play yes but that doesn't mean it's hard to make a good RTS. All the titles I've mentioned before are excellent RTS (Dawn of War, Brood War, Age of Empires 3, AoC, AoT, etc). We haven't had a new good RTS come out since SC2, that was 4 years ago. Don't tell me that making good RTS is too hard, there are a number of excellent RTS games out there, thing is they're all quite old. You may enjoy SC2 but that doesn't mean everyone does. SC2 is all we've got in terms of RTS and that sucks, you can't just assume that everyone enjoys SC2 so the RTS scene is fine and that's it. That's where the problem is, even if you don't see it, the rest of us can. I'm starting to believe more and more that the RTS scene will be supported by its fanbase. I wish I knew how to code shit but I can't; I'd already be working on a stand alone game. ^^ | ||
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agahamsorr0w
Netherlands359 Posts
On May 14 2014 05:28 plogamer wrote: I usually watch Starcraft 2. But this one time I was watching Dota 2, someone in my family noted that the casting had improved. So sad. Starcraft 2 casting is often times like listening to a golf game or test cricket match. Ugh. sc2 casters miss some basic knowledge of the metagame and on top of that they miss small things like gas timings and such. they usually like to overhype and talk about brackets for half the game instead of the match. | ||
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ETisME
12888 Posts
On May 14 2014 19:31 Incognoto wrote: No, maartendq hit the nail right on the head. The fact that RTS is becoming a niche compared to video games (remember that until recently video games themselves were niche) means that game devs aren't really inclined to make a good RTS, since making a good MOBA or a good FPS would be way more profitable. So we, the RTS players, are going to have no new titles to work with. That's why RTS games being niche could be a problem, we won't get any good new titles. RTS games are complex to play yes but that doesn't mean it's hard to make a good RTS. All the titles I've mentioned before are excellent RTS (Dawn of War, Brood War, Age of Empires 3, AoC, AoT, etc). We haven't had a new good RTS come out since SC2, that was 4 years ago. Don't tell me that making good RTS is too hard, there are a number of excellent RTS games out there, thing is they're all quite old. You may enjoy SC2 but that doesn't mean everyone does. SC2 is all we've got in terms of RTS and that sucks, you can't just assume that everyone enjoys SC2 so the RTS scene is fine and that's it. That's where the problem is, even if you don't see it, the rest of us can. I'm starting to believe more and more that the RTS scene will be supported by its fanbase. I wish I knew how to code shit but I can't; I'd already be working on a stand alone game. ^^ You were not even able to list more than ten rts and one was even released more than ten years ago (bw) shows how poorly the rts scene is doing compared to most of every other genre. It's a niche genre and that's what it is. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On May 14 2014 19:38 agahamsorr0w wrote: sc2 casters miss some basic knowledge of the metagame and on top of that they miss small things like gas timings and such. they usually like to overhype and talk about brackets for half the game instead of the match. Wouldn't gas timing be something more important for the player to finish? as observers, we and the casters see perfectly well what tech route any player will be going. Tastosis at very least does a very good job of talking about metagame and not talking about irrelevant details. + Show Spoiler + On May 14 2014 19:39 ETisME wrote: You were not even able to list more than ten rts and one was even released more than ten years ago (bw) shows how poorly the rts scene is doing compared to most of every other genre. It's a niche genre and that's what it is. If you wanna play on semantics fine by me, the idea is that 5 years ago there were plenty of different games to choose from which were well-made. Now we're down to no new RTS game since SC2, which is way worse than having to choose between 3 or 4 good RTS games. So I guess it's a niche genre that's getting even more niche? Who cares about the wording. Point is that we're worse off now than we were before and that not everyone is fine with just SC2. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27451 Posts
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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shin ken
Germany614 Posts
On May 14 2014 19:31 Incognoto wrote: [...] I'm starting to believe more and more that the RTS scene will be supported by its fanbase. I wish I knew how to code shit but I can't; I'd already be working on a stand alone game. ^^ Yeah! I would love to make my own RTS as well. I already have a hundred ideas for a new little one which would probably my favourite game of all time (but not much loved by everyone else - or would it? sometimes you have to make unpopular und weird design decisions outside of the general comfort zone to make a truly remarkable game). But it's completely impossible to do something so huge all alone. In recent years single or very small indie developers have done incredible deeds (Super Meat Boy, FTL, Papers Please etc. etc.) but a RTS would be way out of proportion. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27451 Posts
On May 14 2014 19:17 SatedSC2 wrote: I don't see the problem with that. I asked for someone to explain to me why it is a bad thing if RTS games remain a niche; all you've done is point out exactly why it is a niche. In any case, the complexity of RTS games means that you only need a good RTS to come out very rarely. People were still coming up with new things towards the end of WoL, people will still be figuring out HotS by the time LotV rolls around, and then LotV will still carry us for a good few years after that. I'm really not that worried. I think SC2 is in a good place right now (Swarm Hosts aside) so s'all good IMO. Exactly, I played BW casually for years. Played WC3 for much of my school life and have played SC2 since it came out. There's not much I want in terms of MOBA elements and I'd argue that MOBAs aren't a big genre, there are big titles in LoL and DOTA, hell HoN has declined massively. Accept you have a certain type of gamer who is into RTS and appeal to them, find a way to get more money out of them individually perhaps. | ||
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