Zerg fans had plenty to cheer for on Wednesday night as RagnaroK, JinAir_Rogue, CJ_Hydra, and Samsung_Shine took all four Code S spots up for grabs in Code A. Meanwhile, KT's Flash suffered his second consecutive elimination in Code A, making it two straight seasons where he will not be playing in Code S.
The night's games started off with Group G providing a number of surprising results. The StarCraft 2 world had heard little from Ragnarok since the dissolution of Azubu's Korean progaming team, but the teamless Zerg recorded a perfect 4-0 record over ST_Curious and Rogue to take first place in his group. On the other hand, one of the most famous Code S regulars in Curious was sent down to Code B, failing to win a single map in the group. In the battle for the second place spot, JinAir's Zerg ace Rogue triumphed over KT's Stats to advance.
Group H was headlined by Flash's elimination, who fell to third place as Hydra and Shine made their way through to Code S. Flash started his group with a quick 0-2 loss to Hydra, but went on to 2-0 ST_Panic in the losers match to earn a second chance. Flash seemed well on his way to Code S ticket after going up 1-0 in the final match against Shine. However, the Samsung Zerg worked his trademark black magic and bamboozled Flash into playing greedily against his early roach attack, tying up the series 1-1. To make amends for his dark deeds in the previous game, Shine then took on Flash in a straight-up macro game in game three, emerging victorious once more to earn passage to Code S.
I´m really disappointed by Flash. I can´t wrap my head around why he built the 3rd CC against Shine of all people. This one´s totally on him. After that I couldn´t even watch the last game. T_T
On April 17 2014 01:33 Rikudou wrote: KTFlaSh, the most overrated player in sc2 (in sc2 not in broodwar)
Wrong. It's not about him being overrated he just has a ton of fans. People want him to succeed. No one considers him elite, just very good, which he is.
On April 17 2014 01:37 TeeTS wrote: I think we have a good chance for 5 terrans in Code S this season. So they did a good job at putting the game back into a balanced state. Job done!
Really nice play by RagnaroK goin 4-0 and getting into to Code S. My favorite game was when he bluffed the gold base and mass ling to win quick 2-0. Didn't get to see group H because by then it was 3 am here. No Flash
well its all maru & bbyong whos once again carrying the terran flag to code s and hopefully beyond it. cant realy imagine fantasy make it out of the group, supernova well long time no see from him and ty spl = top, code a = flop.
When watching game three of Flash vs Shine, it was like watching them play BroodWar again. Both had their units seperated into small groups all over the map, fighting smaller skirmishes for most of the game. Very exciting, and I think Artosis felt it too :p
Besides game two, I was amazed by Flash. Ruler of the world!
Maybe they should just send Flash to a bunch of foreign tournaments to "boost" his confidence. Granted I wouldn't bet on him winning a GSL anytime soon, but his inability to even sniff Code A has to be mental, no?
On April 17 2014 02:54 ssxsilver wrote: Maybe they should just send Flash to a bunch of foreign tournaments to "boost" his confidence. Granted I wouldn't bet on him winning a GSL anytime soon, but his inability to even sniff Code A has to be mental, no?
They used to do that. Flash bopped in all of them. It's not mental, Flash is just not a reactive player as he was in BW
How is it possible that Flash gets good results in Proleague? I was truly astonished by his mediocre play... I wanted him to win, but if he keeps playing like that in the GSL, he's never going to make it to Code S.
On April 17 2014 02:54 ssxsilver wrote: Maybe they should just send Flash to a bunch of foreign tournaments to "boost" his confidence. Granted I wouldn't bet on him winning a GSL anytime soon, but his inability to even sniff Code A has to be mental, no?
They used to do that. Flash bopped in all of them. It's not mental, Flash is just not a reactive player as he was in BW
But then that doesn't really explain his proleague performance. If anything, the argument is that PL bo1's are more favorable towards cheese/trick plays.
On April 17 2014 02:54 ssxsilver wrote: Maybe they should just send Flash to a bunch of foreign tournaments to "boost" his confidence. Granted I wouldn't bet on him winning a GSL anytime soon, but his inability to even sniff Code A has to be mental, no?
They used to do that. Flash bopped in all of them. It's not mental, Flash is just not a reactive player as he was in BW
But then that doesn't really explain his proleague performance. If anything, the argument is that PL bo1's are more favorable towards cheese/trick plays.
Well most losses in PL to Flash have been cheese/trick plays. But Flash just really prepares very well for PL
I think he was talking about the assumption that the better you are at BW then the better you would be at SC2 => Which was what the article was talking about.
With the assumption:
MVP => "okay" BW Player/Best SC2 Player
And then concluding that:
BW Players who were better than MVP will dominate like/more than MVP. That didn't happen.
What we have is some Kespa players are better than others but the quality of their skills in BW did not transpose to their quality of skills in SC2.
As an example, Flash/JD/Bisu no longer being the top of their races. None of them can even get through Code A it seems.
Are they good players? Yes, they are amazing players. But Flash is no longer God and its no longer ZvDong. The actual true conclusion of "its depends on player to player, some will be really good when the transition happens while some won't be as good" is not as exciting a conclusion but is more the truth than the actual hypothesis of the argument.
He shouldn't have brought up the elephant though, it never leads to anything productive. + Show Spoiler +
As I posted when the Code A groups were announced, people underestimate RagnaroK at their own risk...
And as of now, Zerg is the predominant race in Code S (11 vs 10 Protoss).
Did anyone else watching Flash do a fast 3-CC build against Shine get immediate flashbacks to INnoVation vs. Maru from the last OSL? What is it with these macro KeSPA terrans?!
Wonder if Flash ever seriously considered how his style of play in BW translates to 2's races. Read in some interview he was thihking about Protoss, maybe not thnking hard enough? It's not even that P is doing well as of late (which would certainly help) just that maybe he'd be more comfortable to play with it and have some success both inside and outside of PL.
On April 17 2014 04:29 McRatyn wrote: Wonder if Flash ever seriously considered how his style of play in BW translates to 2's races. Read in some interview he was thihking about Protoss, maybe not thnking hard enough? It's not even that P is doing well as of late (which would certainly help) just that maybe he'd be more comfortable to play with it and have some success both inside and outside of PL.
He seriously considered switching to zerg when he first transitioned. At this point a race swap is really unlikely. He's still super good, and just on the brink of being elite. I don't think he needs such a drastic change to make it to the top
On April 17 2014 04:29 McRatyn wrote: Wonder if Flash ever seriously considered how his style of play in BW translates to 2's races. Read in some interview he was thihking about Protoss, maybe not thnking hard enough? It's not even that P is doing well as of late (which would certainly help) just that maybe he'd be more comfortable to play with it and have some success both inside and outside of PL.
He seriously considered switching to zerg when he first transitioned. At this point a race swap is really unlikely. He's still super good, and just on the brink of being elite. I don't think he needs such a drastic change to make it to the top
Yeah it's funny because getting to Code A still means you're really good. You just need to go that extra mile to get to code S, I guess.
I think he was talking about the assumption that the better you are at BW then the better you would be at SC2 => Which was what the article was talking about.
With the assumption:
MVP => "okay" BW Player/Best SC2 Player
And then concluding that:
BW Players who were better than MVP will dominate like/more than MVP. That didn't happen.
What we have is some Kespa players are better than others but the quality of their skills in BW did not transpose to their quality of skills in SC2.
As an example, Flash/JD/Bisu no longer being the top of their races. None of them can even get through Code A it seems.
Are they good players? Yes, they are amazing players. But Flash is no longer God and its no longer ZvDong. The actual true conclusion of "its depends on player to player, some will be really good when the transition happens while some won't be as good" is not as exciting a conclusion but is more the truth than the actual hypothesis of the argument.
He shouldn't have brought up the elephant though, it never leads to anything productive. + Show Spoiler +
This post, for example.
Also, Shine had the longest win streak in BW IIRC. Or second longest. And Hydra the MSL champ. In the MSL where Flash lost to Ssak.
zerg domination. Crazy how times have changed from zerg and terran control to protoss and zerg control. Terran is completely out of the picture these days =(
On April 17 2014 05:17 ACrow wrote: While Flash is nowhere near the level he was at in BW, it is still an absolute shame that he was cheesed out of GSL again. He belongs in Code S
Shine better win Code S..... But, my money is on him getting eliminated 1st round. -__-'
On April 17 2014 01:35 witchblade wrote: another season of pvp zvz and pvz
PvZ finals was pretty good this season. Damn it flash you messed up my near-perfect prediction
On April 16 2014 04:29 The_Templar wrote: This is group H. Hydra starts with an H so he advances in first, and Panic has no H, so he will get last place. The deciding match will be against Flash and Shine, which Flash will win since his name is slightly more similar to Hydra (has 2 letters in common instead of one). My predictions are therefore: Hydra > Flash Panic < Shine Hydra > Shine Flash > Panic Flash > Shine
On April 16 2014 04:29 The_Templar wrote: This is group H. Hydra starts with an H so he advances in first, and Panic has no H, so he will get last place. The deciding match will be against Flash and Shine, which Flash will win since his name is slightly more similar to Hydra (has 2 letters in common instead of one). My predictions are therefore: Hydra > Flash Panic < Shine Hydra > Shine Flash > Panic Flash > Shine
Well its kinda hard to predict when Shine decides to macro... against Flash... and win
On April 17 2014 01:35 witchblade wrote: another season of pvp zvz and pvz
PvZ finals was pretty good this season. Damn it flash you messed up my near-perfect prediction
On April 16 2014 04:29 The_Templar wrote: This is group H. Hydra starts with an H so he advances in first, and Panic has no H, so he will get last place. The deciding match will be against Flash and Shine, which Flash will win since his name is slightly more similar to Hydra (has 2 letters in common instead of one). My predictions are therefore: Hydra > Flash Panic < Shine Hydra > Shine Flash > Panic Flash > Shine
Well its kinda hard to predict when Shine decides to macro... against Flash... and win
On April 17 2014 01:35 witchblade wrote: another season of pvp zvz and pvz
PvZ finals was pretty good this season. Damn it flash you messed up my near-perfect prediction
On April 16 2014 04:29 The_Templar wrote: This is group H. Hydra starts with an H so he advances in first, and Panic has no H, so he will get last place. The deciding match will be against Flash and Shine, which Flash will win since his name is slightly more similar to Hydra (has 2 letters in common instead of one). My predictions are therefore: Hydra > Flash Panic < Shine Hydra > Shine Flash > Panic Flash > Shine
Well its kinda hard to predict when Shine decides to macro... against Flash... and win
He what? Can I find a VOD of that?
Even Artosis started to liked him, or maybe he tried to curse him, but his Flash curse was stronger
On April 17 2014 03:48 kisoso wrote: It seems like all but few top tier Terran players moved to EU/AM. When will we have more new Terran rising in KR? T_T
If all the top tier Terran players moved to EU/AM, what does that say for the players like Stardust, San, Oz who keep beating them? They're just as good? Even better?
Hmmmmmmm... Didn't watch the games.. As much as I'd 've liked - I was working, and getting a tight schedule as well..
To me feels like Terrans got pretty tired of very hard practising TvP.. So right now it might be a small window of vulnerability vs Zerg.. But on the other hand - the Zergs however still have a hard time vs Protoss.. so IDK, should've been on equal ground or sth..
As for the players themselves - more like Flash himself - his biggest advantage is/was MACRO PERFECTION.. Which was far more required (far more of a factor) in BW IMO.. In SC2 there's a "smaller gap" between the very best ones (bonjwas) and the ones that follow as T2 strong pro players that have a title or 2 but not 5 of them.. Or at least tend to think so..
Some of the very best however had difficulties at transitioning.. Take Bisu for example - he had a pretty hard time playing the game.. Still - In BW that gap I think was very huuuuuuuuuuuuuge.. Much larger than in SC2.
So we'd have seen Flash in BW dominate SO DAMN HARD cause he'd not miss a beat.. In sc2 at the very best skill levels that's not "quite" required I think.. In SC2 feels more like who outsmarts the opponent, rather than who outproduces/outmacroes or sth.. Like - Flash is one of the very few Terran players that can constantly keep the supply up high even during multiple battles - like - watch him play and see the supply at the top (I'm still firmly convinced that the supply numbers always tell the story in TvZ b.t.w.) - and it's like a CRAAAAZY BATTLE in the middle, but yep - it's Flash - doesn't even matter - his supply is constantly above 160, perhaps even constantly above 165, and Zerg often getting down to 130 or sth, despite the pure cleanup
But lately - think that Zergs got better at engagements, so IDK.. Might've been Shine playing his absolute best.. didn't watch the games.. Easy for me to not get disappointed or amazed by what's happened, so IDK.. Another factor might be the maps - think that the latest map pool favors the more aggressive play overall (except Alterzim I mean )
On April 17 2014 01:35 witchblade wrote: another season of pvp zvz and pvz
PvZ finals was pretty good this season. Damn it flash you messed up my near-perfect prediction
On April 16 2014 04:29 The_Templar wrote: This is group H. Hydra starts with an H so he advances in first, and Panic has no H, so he will get last place. The deciding match will be against Flash and Shine, which Flash will win since his name is slightly more similar to Hydra (has 2 letters in common instead of one). My predictions are therefore: Hydra > Flash Panic < Shine Hydra > Shine Flash > Panic Flash > Shine
Well its kinda hard to predict when Shine decides to macro... against Flash... and win
He what? Can I find a VOD of that?
It's behind the GSL paywall (GOM said they'll post free VODs a few weeks after each season so it'll be a while for this game) but yeah, in the decisive game of their series, Shine beat Flash in a straight macro game. It was close, but Shine was ahead most of the game. And it was on Frost (which Flash chose), so Flash can't even complain IMBA map.
You know that silly trick Zergs have been doing lately where they try to randomly roll banelings into your base and kill the SCVs, which never works? It worked against Flash. Multiple times.
On April 17 2014 08:16 Baarn wrote: Too bad Flash got knocked out but I wouldn't mind seeing Shine cheese his way to the final. It would say a lot about the state of things imo.
The only state of things relevant to Shine is that if you play a known cheeser and do greedy builds you'll probably lose when he, actually, you know, cheeses you. That's the way it's always been and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.
Though I have to say the casters were really playing down Shine's skill too much, making it sound like he's the Zerg version of BitByBit and shocked that he could win a macro game. He cheeses more than most, but he's also shown strong macro games plenty of times, including in Code S. For example:
On April 17 2014 08:16 Baarn wrote: Too bad Flash got knocked out but I wouldn't mind seeing Shine cheese his way to the final. It would say a lot about the state of things imo.
The only state of things relevant to Shine is that if you play a known cheeser and do greedy builds you'll probably lose when he, actually, you know, cheeses you. That's the way it's always been and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.
Though I have to say the casters were really playing down Shine's skill too much, making it sound like he's the Zerg version of BitByBit and shocked that he could win a macro game. He cheeses more than most, but he's also shown strong macro games plenty of times, including in Code S. For example:
So many zergs simply because there were so many zergs playing. We all know those protosses are going to kick the shit out of the zergs and it's gonna be mostly PvP's at the end.
Just like every other tournament, it's gonna be a protoss building up a death ball, a-moving it over the zerg's army while he eats popcorn, and then he'll get up on stage and receive his first place cash prize and trophy.
On April 17 2014 09:26 BlackGosu wrote: i say this is TLs fault for publishing that elephant article. kespa players are jinxed!
Yep, so jinxed they've won the last 4 GSL's and produced 7/8 finalists.
None of those are bw gods though. The original point of the article was, that early switchers (MC, Mvp, Nestea and so on) were mediocre in bw and so the skill of the guys who dominated bw would directly transition and they would dominate SC2 as well. That point is proven wrong at this point, with neither Flash nor Stork nor Fantasy nor Bisu having a ro8 run after more than a year. That is what was rightfully critisized about the Elephant article. The kespa players who switched had the best infrastructure and some of the best RTS talent on the planet, it was clear that they would make a huge impact, though a bit of their GSL results might have to do with a lot of talent outside of kespa travelling to WCS EU (San/MMA/JJakji/MC/Mvp) or NA(Bomber/Taeja/Hyun/HerO/Revival/Polt). But really, the article itself has been wrong at this point, neither do the bw legends dominate nor are there 300 pros and semipros, that can be named better than Maru/Life/Bomber/PartinG for example.
On April 17 2014 09:26 BlackGosu wrote: i say this is TLs fault for publishing that elephant article. kespa players are jinxed!
Yep, so jinxed they've won the last 4 GSL's and produced 7/8 finalists.
None of those are bw gods though. The original point of the article was, that early switchers (MC, Mvp, Nestea and so on) were mediocre in bw and so the skill of the guys who dominated bw would directly transition and they would dominate SC2 as well. That point is proven wrong at this point, with neither Flash nor Stork nor Fantasy nor Bisu having a ro8 run after more than a year. That is what was rightfully critisized about the Elephant article. The kespa players who switched had the best infrastructure and some of the best RTS talent on the planet, it was clear that they would make a huge impact, though a bit of their GSL results might have to do with a lot of talent outside of kespa travelling to WCS EU (San/MMA/JJakji/MC/Mvp) or NA(Bomber/Taeja/Hyun/HerO/Revival/Polt). But really, the article itself has been wrong at this point, neither do the bw legends dominate nor are there 300 pros and semipros, that can be named better than Maru/Life/Bomber/PartinG for example.
Did I mention the article? Did he say the BW gods were jinxed? He said 'kespa players' were jinxed and I refuted that. Then for some reason you launch into a completely unnecessary spiel on why the elephant article is wrong, which has been written ad infinitum elsewhere. Well played.
On April 17 2014 09:26 BlackGosu wrote: i say this is TLs fault for publishing that elephant article. kespa players are jinxed!
Yep, so jinxed they've won the last 4 GSL's and produced 7/8 finalists.
None of those are bw gods though. The original point of the article was, that early switchers (MC, Mvp, Nestea and so on) were mediocre in bw and so the skill of the guys who dominated bw would directly transition and they would dominate SC2 as well. That point is proven wrong at this point, with neither Flash nor Stork nor Fantasy nor Bisu having a ro8 run after more than a year. That is what was rightfully critisized about the Elephant article. The kespa players who switched had the best infrastructure and some of the best RTS talent on the planet, it was clear that they would make a huge impact, though a bit of their GSL results might have to do with a lot of talent outside of kespa travelling to WCS EU (San/MMA/JJakji/MC/Mvp) or NA(Bomber/Taeja/Hyun/HerO/Revival/Polt). But really, the article itself has been wrong at this point, neither do the bw legends dominate nor are there 300 pros and semipros, that can be named better than Maru/Life/Bomber/PartinG for example.
Did I mention the article? Did he say the BW gods were jinxed? He said 'kespa players' were jinxed and I refuted that. Then for some reason you launch into a completely unnecessary spiel on why the elephant article is wrong, which has been written ad infinitum elsewhere. Well played.
I'm not trying to start a discussion, I'm trying to clarify. And with mentioning the article, it is to assume that he implied top bw players instead of just kespa. Especially since Flash got eliminated by two other kespa players. So, yeah if you make a passive aggressive comment towards someone mentioning the article, people will talk about the article. Shouldn't be that surprising.
Flash vs Shine was great. Never been a big flash fan but I've always respected him. Losing to shine in code a after falling 0-2 to hydra? Flash's TvZ doesn't look that bad in proleague, why so awful here? Either way the guy just can't get it done. We all know how competitive it is but I realy thought he'd be a perennial code S player. Anyways, congratz to the zergs, some great games and some great plays.
On April 17 2014 01:33 Rikudou wrote: KTFlaSh, the most overrated player in sc2 (in sc2 not in broodwar)
overrated? please. ill be the first person to say that flash absolutely sucks garbage at sc2. but does that stop me from wanting to succeed and cheer for him? no it doesnt. lets keep irrational thoughts to ourselves.
in conclusion, having fans =/= overrated. sorry we're not frontrunners.
On April 17 2014 01:33 Rikudou wrote: KTFlaSh, the most overrated player in sc2 (in sc2 not in broodwar)
overrated? please. ill be the first person to say that flash absolutely sucks garbage at sc2. but does that stop me from wanting to succeed and cheer for him? no it doesnt. lets keep irrational thoughts to ourselves.
in conclusion, having fans =/= overrated. sorry we're not frontrunners.
Quite strange from a "fan" to say that... I'll never get those people calling Flash "bad" at SC2 simply because he's not top1.
I don't think you understood what I meant when I said that "Unless you think Flash leans primarily on gimmicky play" suggesting that he's only good in Bo1 matches.
I believe that Flash is capable of more than Bo1's, I mean, even DRG and MMA took a while to get GSL wins while they were wrecking team league.
I don't think you understood what I meant when I said that "Unless you think Flash leans primarily on gimmicky play" suggesting that he's only good in Bo1 matches.
I believe that Flash is capable of more than Bo1's, I mean, even DRG and MMA took a while to get GSL wins while they were wrecking team league.
Flash's play isn't gimmicky, but in bo3 he suffers from some predictability since he tends to always play the same macro builds (in his group, his CC rax gas use resulted in two losses against Roaches cheeses for instance). It's a pity because the few times he went 8-8-8 or 11/11 vs Zerg, it wasn't bad at all.
On April 18 2014 06:39 carson032000 wrote: Flash is always my favorite terran, but skill-wise he will never win a sc2 championship in his remaining career.
lol your psychic powers of prediction are immense.
People are way too hard on Flash, he is not a bad player nor is he the greatest currently, but there is absolutely no reason why he couldn't be.
Because I watch Proleague I see Flash play all the time, and he ain't that good. Obviously his mechanics are superb, but his decision making is really, really bad. He also gets fooled by weird timing attacks pretty easily. Most of the games he wins are when his opponents allow him the freedom to do what he wants.
I don't think you understood what I meant when I said that "Unless you think Flash leans primarily on gimmicky play" suggesting that he's only good in Bo1 matches.
I believe that Flash is capable of more than Bo1's, I mean, even DRG and MMA took a while to get GSL wins while they were wrecking team league.
Oh no i was responding to the "he lost to other proleague players". Just stated that it wasn't the same thing to practice PL or GSL. I wasn't trying to call you off or something
On April 18 2014 13:34 luckystriker wrote: Because I watch Proleague I see Flash play all the time, and he ain't that good. Obviously his mechanics are superb, but his decision making is really, really bad. He also gets fooled by weird timing attacks pretty easily. Most of the games he wins are when his opponents allow him the freedom to do what he wants.
This is quite true. Maybe that's why he struggles in bo3. And because he practice a lot for Bo1 must reflect on his predictability in a boX. Maybe.
On April 17 2014 01:38 Canucklehead wrote: It's really sad to see the michael jordan of sc fail over and over.
So BW is basketball, and SC2 is baseball?
Close, BW is basketball, SC2 is basketball with the hoops at about 5 ft off the ground and the court half the size it is now.
Flash excelled at full court but now blizzard made it so everyone can dunk and score with little effort. That's why JD/Bisu/Flash aren't as dominant anymore. It's why you see Protoss dominance in the last 7(?) majors, not a protoss player. If one race gets a significant advantage over the others you won't see one player dominate it will be everyone that plays the race. When was the last time we had a back to back champion of any of the WCS.
I suspect this is also why Jangbi left. Jangbi was the god of storms, in BW you select one templar, T, click; Then select another templar, t, click...etc. Now you just bind everything to 2 (or 1 as templars usually end up on top anyways) and T, click over and over again giving you perfect "Jangbi Storms" with no effort.
TL:DR; Bisu/Jaedong/Flash were monsters because their execution was amazing. Blizzard took out execution and made it easy thus they are not as good.
On April 17 2014 01:38 Canucklehead wrote: It's really sad to see the michael jordan of sc fail over and over.
So BW is basketball, and SC2 is baseball?
Close, BW is basketball, SC2 is basketball with the hoops at about 5 ft off the ground and the court half the size it is now.
Flash excelled at full court but now blizzard made it so everyone can dunk and score with little effort. That's why JD/Bisu/Flash aren't as dominant anymore. It's why you see Protoss dominance in the last 7(?) majors, not a protoss player. If one race gets a significant advantage over the others you won't see one player dominate it will be everyone that plays the race. When was the last time we had a back to back champion of any of the WCS.
I suspect this is also why Jangbi left. Jangbi was the god of storms, in BW you select one templar, T, click; Then select another templar, t, click...etc. Now you just bind everything to 2 (or 1 as templars usually end up on top anyways) and T, click over and over again giving you perfect "Jangbi Storms" with no effort.
TL:DR; Bisu/Jaedong/Flash were monsters because their execution was amazing. Blizzard took out execution and made it easy thus they are not as good.
Polt won 2 WCS in a row MC went to 3 WCS finals, winning 1 Soo went to 2 of 3 GSL finals Snute won HSC twice in a row now? sOs has won every 100k tournament he's ever gone into
And that's just recent records. Things get worse if you look back over a longer length of time.
As for BW legends: Fantasy, still can't macro. And it seems his macro is even worse than it was in BW. Flash has ridiculously bad game sense. He keeps losing just for not scouting and not being able to spot army movements. Bisu was terrible *during* the time that Rain, Parting, and sOs were dominating showing that it was very much possible to win with Protoss but Bisu just wasn't able to execute properly at all.
And yet, the non BW legends keep pumping out solid performances and consistent results. Turns out they were simply good at BW but that being good at BW has not translated to being good at SC2.
On April 17 2014 01:38 Canucklehead wrote: It's really sad to see the michael jordan of sc fail over and over.
So BW is basketball, and SC2 is baseball?
Close, BW is basketball, SC2 is basketball with the hoops at about 5 ft off the ground and the court half the size it is now.
Flash excelled at full court but now blizzard made it so everyone can dunk and score with little effort. That's why JD/Bisu/Flash aren't as dominant anymore. It's why you see Protoss dominance in the last 7(?) majors, not a protoss player. If one race gets a significant advantage over the others you won't see one player dominate it will be everyone that plays the race. When was the last time we had a back to back champion of any of the WCS.
I suspect this is also why Jangbi left. Jangbi was the god of storms, in BW you select one templar, T, click; Then select another templar, t, click...etc. Now you just bind everything to 2 (or 1 as templars usually end up on top anyways) and T, click over and over again giving you perfect "Jangbi Storms" with no effort.
TL:DR; Bisu/Jaedong/Flash were monsters because their execution was amazing. Blizzard took out execution and made it easy thus they are not as good.
Players like Life, Maru, Polt, Dear, Zest, Parting, Rain, Soulkey, Supernova all have better execution than Bisu/Jaedong/Flash did in SC2. They just cant reach the skill ceiling that is in SC2.
Also Jangbi left SC2 because Khan stole his money. Using him as an example is disgusting and disrespectful.
No matter how do you look at things, SC2 is just another dumbed down game made for casual gamers generation. You must be insane calling out Bisu, Flash, JD ect a bad players just cause of their SC2 performance. There is a good reason why NOONE is able to dominate in this game on a regular basis. Jangbi/Bisu switched back to BW and instantly started to dominate whole scene all over again. Wonder why? Unlike SC2, BW requires some godly skills.
On April 19 2014 03:49 zerosouL wrote: No matter how do you look at things, SC2 is just another dumbed down game made for casual gamers generation. You must be insane calling out Bisu, Flash, JD ect a bad players just cause of their SC2 performance. There is a good reason why NOONE is able to dominate in this game on a regular basis. Jangbi/Bisu switched back to BW and instantly started to dominate whole scene all over again. Wonder why? Unlike SC2, BW requires some godly skills.
Flash having bad game sense and Fantasy having bad macro has nothing to do with the comparative qualities of BW and SC2. Flash *can* have better game sense, but he doesn't. Fantasy *can* have better macro, but he doesn't. The same is true for Bisu and JD. Despite their talent at BW they are not able to perform as well as their peers in SC2.
Zest had a 70%-80% in Proleague and then won the GSL. That is impressive. Yet there is no hype--because too many people are still waiting for Flash/JD to mimic their BW days when we have players right now starting to lay the groundwork for their empires.
And of course Bisu and Jangbi are doing well in BW, they were good at BW they're not going to stop doing well in BW just because they took a break for a few months.
Flash not having as a good a game sense as his peers has nothing to do with SC2 being easier or harder or whatever. He is not as good at this game as his peers, because of that he is not the titan he once was. Its that simple.
On April 17 2014 01:38 Canucklehead wrote: It's really sad to see the michael jordan of sc fail over and over.
So BW is basketball, and SC2 is baseball?
Close, BW is basketball, SC2 is basketball with the hoops at about 5 ft off the ground and the court half the size it is now.
Flash excelled at full court but now blizzard made it so everyone can dunk and score with little effort. That's why JD/Bisu/Flash aren't as dominant anymore. It's why you see Protoss dominance in the last 7(?) majors, not a protoss player. If one race gets a significant advantage over the others you won't see one player dominate it will be everyone that plays the race. When was the last time we had a back to back champion of any of the WCS.
I suspect this is also why Jangbi left. Jangbi was the god of storms, in BW you select one templar, T, click; Then select another templar, t, click...etc. Now you just bind everything to 2 (or 1 as templars usually end up on top anyways) and T, click over and over again giving you perfect "Jangbi Storms" with no effort.
TL:DR; Bisu/Jaedong/Flash were monsters because their execution was amazing. Blizzard took out execution and made it easy thus they are not as good.
while I agree that smart casting should've never been incorporated into SCII, Jangbi left because as mentioned, Khan took some of his money, didn't tell him about offers from other teams, showed favoritism to Stork etc... so I don't think it's the differences that you mentioned.
On April 19 2014 03:49 zerosouL wrote: No matter how do you look at things, SC2 is just another dumbed down game made for casual gamers generation. You must be insane calling out Bisu, Flash, JD ect a bad players just cause of their SC2 performance. There is a good reason why NOONE is able to dominate in this game on a regular basis. Jangbi/Bisu switched back to BW and instantly started to dominate whole scene all over again. Wonder why? Unlike SC2, BW requires some godly skills.
come now, let's not start this BW vs SCII topic again. The game are quite different. I think calling out Bisu, Flash, JD as bad players is bizzare given how much difficult it was to play BW so they obviously have the skillset to do well in SCII. I don't know the reason why they aren't dominating but I suspect they miss BW a lot. Must be hard to move on from something that you played for so long and loved etc... I think Bisu was hit the hardest which is why he couldn't adapt much to it. Jaedong and Flash were able to overcome it to various degrees but they still play the game like in BW(Flash at least) so sadly, I don't see Flash winning a GSL anytime soon even though he has the potential to be a GSL champion.
To be fair, Jangbi went back to SSL9 and got dominated by Larva in the RO32 and barely survived only to be eliminated in the RO16. Given, he hasn't practiced much due to family issues but ya, he didn't start dominating the scene again. I was very disappointed watching his games against Larva ><; Bisu on the other hand is still a beast in BW. Best BW player atm. His games against hero in the finals were freaking impressive and hero played some of the best ZvP in the whole SSL so I agree there. I think in the end, the top BW players aren't doing as well as anticipated because they are having a hard time adapting to the game even after all this time (Jaedong is an exception it seems lol).
Everyone can have better game sense ect but it has nothing to do with the game itself being too easy to handle even on a noob level. There is HARD counter for EVERYTHING in this game unlike in BW where you just could out micro/macro specific build thats supposed to counter yours. Such thing is almost immpossible to achieve in SC2 in its current state for multiple reasons. As you can see your skills doesnt really matter that much no matter what.
EPT
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/GSL/S1_2014/codeabannerthing.jpg)
RagnaroK, 
Flash suffered his second consecutive elimination in Code A, making it two straight seasons where he will not be playing in Code S.
Stats to advance.![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Waxangel/GSL/S2_2014/codeagroupghresults.png)
![[image loading]](http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1061446/flashjd.png)
