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On March 08 2014 20:57 nihilluz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 20:47 playa wrote:On March 08 2014 20:37 nihilluz wrote:On March 08 2014 20:27 playa wrote:On March 08 2014 20:20 arkedos wrote:On March 08 2014 20:15 playa wrote:On March 08 2014 20:10 arkedos wrote:On March 08 2014 19:37 playa wrote:
It's terrible what has happened with this game. When I got SC 2, WCS was a big reason why I wanted to play. It seemed great. And, besides WCS, there were a million tournaments. Too many! Now? There's next to nothing besides WCS, and WCS isn't worth playing now, besides for a handful of non Koreans, and the tournaments have been run in a way that would have even disgusted WCG admins.
I don't know why Blizzard doesn't get criticized for trying to monopolize the game, when the game has gone nothing but downhill since they have upped their strangle hold on how tournaments are to be run and rules regarding everything. If Blizzard is going to set all the rules and be the only tournament going, then I just wish the billion dollar company would go all the way and run it themselves, instead of delegating it to companies that are struggling to stay afloat.
No one wants to watch thestc in WCS America. Some of these groups in WCS America are so horrible and help no scenes. thats not the case. You can replace SC2 with LoL in this text and blizzard with RIOT then you got it right. In WCS players and teams have sovereignity over their actions. In LoL everything is controlled by riot, the players are contracted and paid by RIOT. RIOT really killed any kind of competition besides LCS. The only difference I see here is riot is actually taking care of the players, where as Blizzard is a billion dollar company more concerned about using their leverage to take care of themselves some more. But, without players or a reason to play... you kinda lose your foundation. If the game is to be controlled, it's a shame it's not Riot. I don't think so. I would not be surprised if the results in LCS are fixed to contribute to the show factor. Well no guarantee that this is not the case in SC2 but everything controlled by one single entity is never a good thing. As you can see when RIOT tried to forbid the players to stream any game that is competing with LoL, like SC2 or DotA2 etc. I do believe there are rules against monopolies for good reasons. I don't disagree. I'm simply saying, I believe some monopolies are better than others... You can't just make it to where you're the only tournament going, but tell the players to suck a fat one. They talk about the need to make the player scene competitive and trying to raise skill level of NA players, etc, and at the same time, they make it to where there are no repercussions for running the shittiest tournaments of all time, since they make the rules and can do w/e. It's hypocrisy. They made it to where to be a top tier WCS tournament you have to have "x" amount in prize money. It's price fixing, as tournaments realize there is no need to spend a penny more than w/e is required to meet certain tiers. There's no competition anymore. It's just WCS all day, every day. The competition now is to see who can run WCS. That apparently doesn't seem to be a worthy game to be involved in, either. Just look at what has happened since this new WCS tournament system has been announced. They need to show some humility and make real changes. 1 ~ there's no such thing as a good monopoly. 2 ~ there's more competition now amongst the players than before. (looking at you scarlett, nani, tlo, state, minigun... all of whom can compete well with the best in the world) 3 ~ Dreamhack, IEM, HSC, ShoutCraft, Redbull training grounds... There are plenty of consistent tourneys going on. The point of Blizzard laying down ground rules for them all was to create a stage where your year long run of tourneys culminated with the world finals at BlizzCon. If anything, WCS made these other tourneys that offer wcs points more relevant to watch. You really believe WCS has had a positive impact on players' skill level? No one is a bigger minigun fan boy than me, but to my knowledge he hasn't even played on the Korean ladder and is just now starting to play on EU. Talented players with a chance to win something are going to be able to compete with the best in the world, regardless. To raise the general skill level, you have to give more players than just 5 a realistic chance to win something. In the long run, what improves the skill level is getting new blood into your game and giving people a reason to practice enough to realize w/e potential they might have. There is no way in hell the new WCS system has done anything like that. With this WCS system, I probably wouldn't have gotten SC 2. Even from a viewer standpoint/curiosity standpoint. I'd much rather know who is the best player in the Americas than have thestc knocking out maybe the best one in the round of 32 and making it a tournament where I can't gleam jack. You're complaint was about a lack of competition, now you're complaining that WCS has somehow lowered the skill level of na players? Look at naniwa. Look at Scarlett. Look at Major. Look at huk, state, idra. What have all these players, and naniwa being the only european mentioned (don't forget Snute) done? they went and lived and played in Korea. They spent a long time training and competing against the best. you want to raise the skill level in na? don't blame wcs, or look to it as some bandaid to fix it. WCS was supposed to put EVERYONE on the same playing field to compete, not to put everyone at the same skill level. And if you really wanted to know who was the better American player... again, I'll refer you to Shoutcraft. TB does that tourney. It does exist.
When I got into this game, there were tournaments EVERYWHERE. So much to win, yet you think this stupid WCS system that players you refer to even hate, is the reason they're good enough to compete with the best? Are you serious? What is wrong with you? When I got into this game, all I heard about was how Huk had all of the top spots on the Korean ladder. Now, people are looking to do fist pumps with you if you can just manage to get GM on the Korean ladder.
You're delusional.
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Sweden7978 Posts
On March 08 2014 13:18 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 12:53 Plexa wrote:On March 08 2014 12:48 jmbthirteen wrote:On March 08 2014 12:46 bourne117 wrote:
With the uncertainty about Season 2 and 3 I wonder if some of the top dogs in AM like JD Taeja Hero Bomber jump ship and go back to EU or KR (if that is even possible don't really remember) The only uncertainty is who will run it. There is no doubt that the seasons will happen. No reason to leave even if possible At this rate, dissolving WCS: AM and integrating it with WCS: EU (to create say, WCS: International) seems like the most logical move. Um no. That goes against Blizzard wanting to bring about aspiring gamers into SC2 and make a name for themselves, especially in America server which is second weakest. At least that's what I think? I personally think the best way to do this is for Blizzard themselves to do WCS AM. Don't they still have the IPL team?
That only works if NA has a reliable capacity to run and manage the seasons internally. Blizz can't be expected to subsidize and run the entire thing. Either NA can handle WCS NA or it can't, in which case other options must be explored.
Yes it will suck for new talent, but in shitty situations hard calls sometimes have to be made.
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On March 08 2014 21:00 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 20:57 nihilluz wrote:On March 08 2014 20:47 playa wrote:On March 08 2014 20:37 nihilluz wrote:On March 08 2014 20:27 playa wrote:On March 08 2014 20:20 arkedos wrote:On March 08 2014 20:15 playa wrote:On March 08 2014 20:10 arkedos wrote:On March 08 2014 19:37 playa wrote:
It's terrible what has happened with this game. When I got SC 2, WCS was a big reason why I wanted to play. It seemed great. And, besides WCS, there were a million tournaments. Too many! Now? There's next to nothing besides WCS, and WCS isn't worth playing now, besides for a handful of non Koreans, and the tournaments have been run in a way that would have even disgusted WCG admins.
I don't know why Blizzard doesn't get criticized for trying to monopolize the game, when the game has gone nothing but downhill since they have upped their strangle hold on how tournaments are to be run and rules regarding everything. If Blizzard is going to set all the rules and be the only tournament going, then I just wish the billion dollar company would go all the way and run it themselves, instead of delegating it to companies that are struggling to stay afloat.
No one wants to watch thestc in WCS America. Some of these groups in WCS America are so horrible and help no scenes. thats not the case. You can replace SC2 with LoL in this text and blizzard with RIOT then you got it right. In WCS players and teams have sovereignity over their actions. In LoL everything is controlled by riot, the players are contracted and paid by RIOT. RIOT really killed any kind of competition besides LCS. The only difference I see here is riot is actually taking care of the players, where as Blizzard is a billion dollar company more concerned about using their leverage to take care of themselves some more. But, without players or a reason to play... you kinda lose your foundation. If the game is to be controlled, it's a shame it's not Riot. I don't think so. I would not be surprised if the results in LCS are fixed to contribute to the show factor. Well no guarantee that this is not the case in SC2 but everything controlled by one single entity is never a good thing. As you can see when RIOT tried to forbid the players to stream any game that is competing with LoL, like SC2 or DotA2 etc. I do believe there are rules against monopolies for good reasons. I don't disagree. I'm simply saying, I believe some monopolies are better than others... You can't just make it to where you're the only tournament going, but tell the players to suck a fat one. They talk about the need to make the player scene competitive and trying to raise skill level of NA players, etc, and at the same time, they make it to where there are no repercussions for running the shittiest tournaments of all time, since they make the rules and can do w/e. It's hypocrisy. They made it to where to be a top tier WCS tournament you have to have "x" amount in prize money. It's price fixing, as tournaments realize there is no need to spend a penny more than w/e is required to meet certain tiers. There's no competition anymore. It's just WCS all day, every day. The competition now is to see who can run WCS. That apparently doesn't seem to be a worthy game to be involved in, either. Just look at what has happened since this new WCS tournament system has been announced. They need to show some humility and make real changes. 1 ~ there's no such thing as a good monopoly. 2 ~ there's more competition now amongst the players than before. (looking at you scarlett, nani, tlo, state, minigun... all of whom can compete well with the best in the world) 3 ~ Dreamhack, IEM, HSC, ShoutCraft, Redbull training grounds... There are plenty of consistent tourneys going on. The point of Blizzard laying down ground rules for them all was to create a stage where your year long run of tourneys culminated with the world finals at BlizzCon. If anything, WCS made these other tourneys that offer wcs points more relevant to watch. You really believe WCS has had a positive impact on players' skill level? No one is a bigger minigun fan boy than me, but to my knowledge he hasn't even played on the Korean ladder and is just now starting to play on EU. Talented players with a chance to win something are going to be able to compete with the best in the world, regardless. To raise the general skill level, you have to give more players than just 5 a realistic chance to win something. In the long run, what improves the skill level is getting new blood into your game and giving people a reason to practice enough to realize w/e potential they might have. There is no way in hell the new WCS system has done anything like that. With this WCS system, I probably wouldn't have gotten SC 2. Even from a viewer standpoint/curiosity standpoint. I'd much rather know who is the best player in the Americas than have thestc knocking out maybe the best one in the round of 32 and making it a tournament where I can't gleam jack. You're complaint was about a lack of competition, now you're complaining that WCS has somehow lowered the skill level of na players? Look at naniwa. Look at Scarlett. Look at Major. Look at huk, state, idra. What have all these players, and naniwa being the only european mentioned (don't forget Snute) done? they went and lived and played in Korea. They spent a long time training and competing against the best. you want to raise the skill level in na? don't blame wcs, or look to it as some bandaid to fix it. WCS was supposed to put EVERYONE on the same playing field to compete, not to put everyone at the same skill level. And if you really wanted to know who was the better American player... again, I'll refer you to Shoutcraft. TB does that tourney. It does exist. When I got into this game, there were tournaments EVERYWHERE. So much to win, yet you think this stupid WCS system that players you refer to even hate, is the reason they're good enough to compete with the best? Are you serious? What is wrong with you? When I got into this game, all I heard about was how Huk had all of the top spots on the Korean ladder. Now, people are looking to do fist pumps with you if you can just manage to get GM on the Korean ladder. You're delusional.
Yeah and tournaments being everywhere was the problem of SC2. It was tiring even for the viewership. I think with WCS you have good games during the week and then on occasion awesome events like DH, IEM, MLG or HSC and so on.. Sc2 is where it should be. Rather sucessful. We should stop dreaming of beating games like LoL or DotA 2 in viewership. Only because we dont have these viewernumbers it does not mean SC2 is dead. LoL and DotA 2 are f2p and therefore alone they have a huge playerbase. For SC2 you got the barrier to invest money into the game.
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Thats interesting.
So that means that they will play the finals of EU and AM on the same weekend...so non-stop production, so it is in the normal timezone for their viewers? Sounds like a lot of work for the ESL-Staff, but if anyone can do it, then the ESL-guys.
And finally, Nathains finds a job as a WCS-Caster. And Rotti isnt alone.
After all, i think this will improve the quality of WCS AM a lot.
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A shame, but I'm actually surprised it didn't happen sooner. It was never very clear whether NASL had enough income to be a sustainable operation. I hope that the Esport broadcasting that brached off of it is doing well.
Everybody on Reddit is engaging in rumor mongering, trying to see conspiracies everywhere. SMH. It's pretty clear that it's a simple matter of economic feasibility. There are no scandals or scapegoats here, the numbers simply didn't add up.
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On March 08 2014 21:15 dizzy101 wrote:
A shame, but I'm actually surprised it didn't happen sooner. It was never very clear whether NASL had enough income to be a sustainable operation. I hope that the Esport broadcasting that brached off of it is doing well.
Everybody on Reddit is engaging in rumor mongering, trying to see conspiracies everywhere. SMH. It's pretty clear that it's a simple matter of economic feasibility. No hidden agendas, etc.
Never mind with economics, just blame Blizzard seems the norm...
Sad really.
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On March 08 2014 21:15 Firestorm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 21:15 dizzy101 wrote:
A shame, but I'm actually surprised it didn't happen sooner. It was never very clear whether NASL had enough income to be a sustainable operation. I hope that the Esport broadcasting that brached off of it is doing well.
Everybody on Reddit is engaging in rumor mongering, trying to see conspiracies everywhere. SMH. It's pretty clear that it's a simple matter of economic feasibility. No hidden agendas, etc. Never mind with economics, just blame Blizzard seems the norm... Sad really.
It is a bummer. And there are only a few posters blaming blizzard. Everyone else is just worried and hoping that our favorite casters find a home.
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Was there no contract that could have avoided happening in midseason? -.-
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On March 08 2014 21:28 sharkie wrote:
Was there no contract that could have avoided happening in midseason? -.-
No contract can force a business to work without money. What is blizzard going to do, sue NASL? How quality of a production do you think we would get from that.
Contracts are not magic. They are paper. They can't force anyone to do anything. Courts do that.
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I could be awesome if Redbull had the means and the willingness to take it over later down the road.
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On March 08 2014 21:15 Firestorm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 21:15 dizzy101 wrote:
A shame, but I'm actually surprised it didn't happen sooner. It was never very clear whether NASL had enough income to be a sustainable operation. I hope that the Esport broadcasting that brached off of it is doing well.
Everybody on Reddit is engaging in rumor mongering, trying to see conspiracies everywhere. SMH. It's pretty clear that it's a simple matter of economic feasibility. No hidden agendas, etc. Never mind with economics, just blame Blizzard seems the norm... Sad really.
Blizzard did try to blame NASL though...
"NASL recently informed Blizzard that it would be unable to honor its commitment to operate the WCS America Season 1 competition."
i'm glad to see NASL did not attempt to return fire.
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Sounds like a long casting weekend at TakeTV as well ^_°
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On March 08 2014 21:35 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 21:15 Firestorm wrote:On March 08 2014 21:15 dizzy101 wrote:
A shame, but I'm actually surprised it didn't happen sooner. It was never very clear whether NASL had enough income to be a sustainable operation. I hope that the Esport broadcasting that brached off of it is doing well.
Everybody on Reddit is engaging in rumor mongering, trying to see conspiracies everywhere. SMH. It's pretty clear that it's a simple matter of economic feasibility. No hidden agendas, etc. Never mind with economics, just blame Blizzard seems the norm... Sad really. Blizzard did try to blame NASL though... "NASL recently informed Blizzard that it would be unable to honor its commitment to operate the WCS America Season 1 competition." i'm glad to see NASL did not attempt to return fire.
That's stating the facts, that's not blame.
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Sweden7978 Posts
On March 08 2014 19:37 playa wrote:
It's terrible what has happened with this game. When I got SC 2, WCS was a big reason why I wanted to play. It seemed great. And, besides WCS, there were a million tournaments. Too many! Now? There's next to nothing besides WCS, and WCS isn't worth playing now, besides for a handful of non Koreans, and the tournaments have been run in a way that would have even disgusted WCG admins.
I don't know why Blizzard doesn't get criticized for trying to monopolize the game, when the game has gone nothing but downhill since they have upped their strangle hold on how tournaments are to be run and rules regarding everything. If Blizzard is going to set all the rules and be the only tournament going, then I just wish the billion dollar company would go all the way and run it themselves, instead of delegating it to companies that are struggling to stay afloat.
No one wants to watch thestc in WCS America. Some of these groups in WCS America are so horrible and help no scenes.
Blizzard isn't trying to monopolize anything, the problem is that no one wants their product.
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On March 08 2014 21:40 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 19:37 playa wrote:
It's terrible what has happened with this game. When I got SC 2, WCS was a big reason why I wanted to play. It seemed great. And, besides WCS, there were a million tournaments. Too many! Now? There's next to nothing besides WCS, and WCS isn't worth playing now, besides for a handful of non Koreans, and the tournaments have been run in a way that would have even disgusted WCG admins.
I don't know why Blizzard doesn't get criticized for trying to monopolize the game, when the game has gone nothing but downhill since they have upped their strangle hold on how tournaments are to be run and rules regarding everything. If Blizzard is going to set all the rules and be the only tournament going, then I just wish the billion dollar company would go all the way and run it themselves, instead of delegating it to companies that are struggling to stay afloat.
No one wants to watch thestc in WCS America. Some of these groups in WCS America are so horrible and help no scenes. Blizzard isn't trying to monopolize anything, the problem is that no one wants their product.
Except all those people watching WCS, MLG, redbull and shoutcraft. But beyond them, you're 100% correct.
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This has probably been said but it's funny for me that WCS America finals will take place in Europe...
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Ugh. Goodbye NASL.  This really sucks for the american scene. Like really really sucks.
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Oh well. Goodbye NASL.
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On March 08 2014 21:44 Plansix wrote:
Except all those people watching WCS, MLG, redbull and shoutcraft. But beyond them, you're 100% correct.
You're forgetting that a game cannot thrive if people only watch it. You need people who play it.
The problem with SC2 since its inception has been a meagre playerbase. Simple as that.
You need a huge playerbase BEFORE you can have a healthy pro-scene. Think of it as a pyramid with, at the base, the casuals and at the top, the pros.
SC2 just doesn't draw casual players in, the way LoL and Dota 2 do.
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NASL actually ends more smoothly than I had always feared. I thought it would crash sooner, and with a lot of drama with outstanding payments and stuff.
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EPT
