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On March 10 2014 02:03 muzzy wrote:
Everyone who has these comments like "Oh, I've been watching for years but am bored now" doesn't seem to understand- The problem is personal, not with the game.
People get bored of everything. The fact that you could watch for years and just now get bored is an indication of how interesting SC2 is to watch.
If you don't find it entertaining, take a break!
I basically stopped playing and watched very little for around 6 months after HoTS came out, because I was bored.
I am back to playing now and in fact, this last season has been my most active since the first couple seasons of WoL.
I still absolutely love the game, both playing and watching, and the quality as a spectator is honestly SO much better now. Go back and try to watch games from 2011-2012 now and it's almost painful. The game has developed so much, not just in play, but also in the polish of the commentating, tournaments, interface and so forth.
You may find the game boring, but that is subjective. Objectively, it cannot be argued that it hasn't drastically improved.
I try and watch every basketball game the Toronto Raptors play. I don't find it boring one bit. Well not since the Rudy Gay trade anyways. While there are still frustrating moments at times, overall it's been very exciting to watch.
On March 10 2014 02:56 Firestorm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2014 02:42 dUTtrOACh wrote:
Oh, come on... That's such a cop-out it isn't even funny. The quality of the game has deteriorated since HotS. Swarm Hosts ARE boring to watch unless something spectacular happens, PvT is mostly predictable, and ZvZ makes me want to Alt-F4 any broadcast with how ridiculously stale that M/U is.
The game itself isn't boring to watch, it's just not where it needs to be on the fun-o-meter. Did you want Broodlord Infestor back?
I'll take that over long hours of Swarm Hosts any day. At least Broodlord-Infestor ended quickly! I don't think I've seen any exciting games involving Swarm Hosts lately, except for Jjakji vs HyuN today. That was decent.
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On March 10 2014 08:05 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2014 02:03 muzzy wrote:
Everyone who has these comments like "Oh, I've been watching for years but am bored now" doesn't seem to understand- The problem is personal, not with the game.
People get bored of everything. The fact that you could watch for years and just now get bored is an indication of how interesting SC2 is to watch.
If you don't find it entertaining, take a break!
I basically stopped playing and watched very little for around 6 months after HoTS came out, because I was bored.
I am back to playing now and in fact, this last season has been my most active since the first couple seasons of WoL.
I still absolutely love the game, both playing and watching, and the quality as a spectator is honestly SO much better now. Go back and try to watch games from 2011-2012 now and it's almost painful. The game has developed so much, not just in play, but also in the polish of the commentating, tournaments, interface and so forth.
You may find the game boring, but that is subjective. Objectively, it cannot be argued that it hasn't drastically improved. I try and watch every basketball game the Toronto Raptors play. I don't find it boring one bit. Well not since the Rudy Gay trade anyways. While there are still frustrating moments at times, overall it's been very exciting to watch. Show nested quote +On March 10 2014 02:56 Firestorm wrote:On March 10 2014 02:42 dUTtrOACh wrote:
Oh, come on... That's such a cop-out it isn't even funny. The quality of the game has deteriorated since HotS. Swarm Hosts ARE boring to watch unless something spectacular happens, PvT is mostly predictable, and ZvZ makes me want to Alt-F4 any broadcast with how ridiculously stale that M/U is.
The game itself isn't boring to watch, it's just not where it needs to be on the fun-o-meter. Did you want Broodlord Infestor back? I'll take that over long hours of Swarm Hosts any day. At least Broodlord-Infestor ended quickly! I don't think I've seen any exciting games involving Swarm Hosts lately, except for Jjakji vs HyuN today. That was decent.
I think progamers in the Korean scene just play more exciting games. When everyone in the foreign scene was bemoaning the swarmhost turtle games in PvZ, I don't recall watching many games like that. And Korean PvZ was pretty much all I was watching since Terrans are getting their butts kicked.
Same with T(mech)vZ. IMMvp's wcs am games were so dynamic and put Avilo to shame. And I really like Avilo, don't get me wrong. I watch his mech games regularly on stream - his attitude is kinda shit, calling opponents bad while losing etc. But I enjoy his unique playstyle.
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this is sad news. i have fond memories watching NASL as well as fond memories of state of the game talking about NASL. geez, this hits hard =/
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On March 08 2014 22:58 playa wrote:
SC 2 has always been driven by popular non Koreans. Stephano was like a mythical god-like creature until he went to pro league, where it became evident he would be "just another guy" if he were Korean. Not every tournament should be filled with Koreans, reminding fans that there is no hope and your perception is somewhat of a mirage.
Idra was what, a top 20 player in the US? Yet, he had to essentially retire because he couldn't qualify for any tournaments? In what profession/scene can you say "I'm a top player in my country (a big one)" but I had to retire because there was no hope? You're excluding one of SC 2's biggest draws so fans can see the likes of "theSTC." It's crazy, whether fair or not.
WCS loves to talk about story lines, but the only storyline I've seen built since the new system is "stay tuned to find out who retires next." That's the only story I'm really aware of atm.
You have to bring relevancy back to saying you're one of the best in your country. Players like incontrol are bad in the grand scheme of things, just like 99.99% of non Koreans. It's splitting hairs when coming up with different tiers for most non Koreans in comparison to Koreans. But, if being one of the best in the Americas had any relevance at all, Incontrol would probably qualify for every tournament, instead of relying on a catz friend list tournament.
I just think it's crazy to know the biggest draws in SC 2, yet have so few of the popular players in the US have a shot at qualifying, when they're good players relative to other Americans...
I'd like to see Nony be able to qualify for tournaments. If I have to wait for nony to be good, relative to Koreans, before he can qualify, then I wouldn't blame him or anyone for retiring before the fact. There's hardly anyone left for non Koreans to root for, because "their players" can't play in any tournaments to begin with..
It's weird how many of the generalizations in this post are accurate while nearly all of the specifics are not.
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Northern Ireland26737 Posts
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Stephano was rather mediocrity at EG and last 3months in Millenium (summer 2012 upwards). Before it, he showed passion for this game.
If he had passion during EG time (joined in september 2012), he would have played a lot better than he did. Summer 2011 to summer 2012 was obviously the best year and performance for Stephano.
I noticed already in summer 2012 that he lost passion for this game and I really hoped that he left this game instead of joining EG or whatever.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
So....Rotti and Nathanias casting WCS NA from Germany?
Wonder if there is any point of Rotti staying in America now. I thought he just started to rent his own appartment and such, but there doesn't seem much point for that now if ESL are in charge of WCS NA. And if they want to keep it, it sounds like they will have first choice to do so.
Bad times for Rotti, but i hope he sticks at it, hell hope he moves back to Europe myself mainly due to now DeMuslim is back here too they could start going hard again in Germany like old times <3
But of course it's his choice :D I'll like him whatever he does!
#GLRotti
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I can imagine that Rotti is casting with Nathanias in AM in season 2&3 at Redbull Avenue (as AM did at WCS NA S2?!).
Best thing is that Rotti is going to Redbull as caster, so that we can Bitterdam at WCS NA and Redbull tournaments :D
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On March 10 2014 08:05 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2014 02:03 muzzy wrote:
Everyone who has these comments like "Oh, I've been watching for years but am bored now" doesn't seem to understand- The problem is personal, not with the game.
People get bored of everything. The fact that you could watch for years and just now get bored is an indication of how interesting SC2 is to watch.
If you don't find it entertaining, take a break!
I basically stopped playing and watched very little for around 6 months after HoTS came out, because I was bored.
I am back to playing now and in fact, this last season has been my most active since the first couple seasons of WoL.
I still absolutely love the game, both playing and watching, and the quality as a spectator is honestly SO much better now. Go back and try to watch games from 2011-2012 now and it's almost painful. The game has developed so much, not just in play, but also in the polish of the commentating, tournaments, interface and so forth.
You may find the game boring, but that is subjective. Objectively, it cannot be argued that it hasn't drastically improved. I try and watch every basketball game the Toronto Raptors play. I don't find it boring one bit. Well not since the Rudy Gay trade anyways. While there are still frustrating moments at times, overall it's been very exciting to watch. .
There is a major difference between watching all games of 1 team and how much starcraft most people are watching. Even if you only follow 1 WCS region and don't give a shit about anything outside of WCS, you'll end up watching way way more starcraft than any sports fan would if he followed his favorite team. Starcraft has been oversaturated with content since 2012 and WCS didn't change that one bit. Plus SC2 is a 1 vs 1 RTS games, which is kinda an advantage as there is no direct competition in both areas nowadays, but also a disadvantage since team games have continued to get more and more popular ever since CS came up and most people don't really care about the RTS genre anymore. We are kinda niche and SC2 is way too hard to get into to ever be the #1 game, it was only the major recession in eSports in 09/10 that allowed SC2 to be THE game for a bit, however due to Quake being semi-dead and there not being any other eSports RTS at the moment, SC2 won't go anywhere any time soon. Plus LOTV will give a similar boost like HOTS.
People shouldn't really talk so grimly about the state of foreign sc2. BW had WCG and some online shit for foreigners, I'd say 2 WCS regions + tons of events is a lot better than that. Yes paying for Koreans to take money out of the NA/EU eco-system wasn't the smartest thing ever, and we would probably look at a healthier foreign scene if those Koreans would have come with their own/sponsor money. But MLG is trying to fix that and eventually WCS NA will see less and less Koreans due to the partial region lock and WCS EU has actually forced Koreans to move to EU, which will end up improving the overall skill level in that region.
I'd much rather have someone dig up what made NASL bail out of a contract mid season rather than at least finishing that season. I'm sure breaking a contract like that must have been really expensive. Also Canada looses the most here as NASL was literally the only major event there in the past 5 years.
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On March 10 2014 02:35 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2014 02:26 jmbthirteen wrote:On March 10 2014 02:18 TotalBiscuit wrote:On March 09 2014 09:52 ssregitoss wrote:
check the viewer numbers.it tells the truth.nothing else.boring to watch. The viewer numbers that have shown substantial growth in viewership for regular weekly content you mean? I wonder how long some of the people who have been saying this have actually been around. I was around when IPL, NASL and even Proleague were getting 5-10k concurrents at most, not the 15-20k WCS NA, 20k+ Proleague or 30-40k WCS EU is getting now What we have actually seen, is a shift in how Starcraft is consumed and the kind of events that are being put on on a regular basis, which has resulted in some strange numbers that people without proper perspective interpret is DEDGAEM. not to mention, big events still pull in 100k concurrent viewers. I'd be surprised if IEM WC doesn't hit 100k this coming week. NASL had problems from the start. Look at all the people they have lost recently. Its not the viewership that made NASL shut down, but far more behind the scenes stuff. When you lose Frodan, Gretorp and Mr. Bitter all within a few months, that says something. These guys were all more than casters for NASL. IEM WC will go over 100k. Mark my words on that.
IEM has barely any foreigners...
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On March 10 2014 22:35 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2014 02:35 TotalBiscuit wrote:On March 10 2014 02:26 jmbthirteen wrote:On March 10 2014 02:18 TotalBiscuit wrote:On March 09 2014 09:52 ssregitoss wrote:
check the viewer numbers.it tells the truth.nothing else.boring to watch. The viewer numbers that have shown substantial growth in viewership for regular weekly content you mean? I wonder how long some of the people who have been saying this have actually been around. I was around when IPL, NASL and even Proleague were getting 5-10k concurrents at most, not the 15-20k WCS NA, 20k+ Proleague or 30-40k WCS EU is getting now What we have actually seen, is a shift in how Starcraft is consumed and the kind of events that are being put on on a regular basis, which has resulted in some strange numbers that people without proper perspective interpret is DEDGAEM. not to mention, big events still pull in 100k concurrent viewers. I'd be surprised if IEM WC doesn't hit 100k this coming week. NASL had problems from the start. Look at all the people they have lost recently. Its not the viewership that made NASL shut down, but far more behind the scenes stuff. When you lose Frodan, Gretorp and Mr. Bitter all within a few months, that says something. These guys were all more than casters for NASL. IEM WC will go over 100k. Mark my words on that. IEM has barely any foreigners...
Not so sure it matters this time. I feel it's less about the players and more about who will win ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLAAAAAAAAAHS!!!
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IEM will easily break 100k. Huge, controversial price pool, many of the absolute best players in the world, lots of hype. These are the kinds of events that SC2 will need to focus on, out of the box thinking where the focal point is more on the show aspect than anything else.
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NASL's ambition was pretty much their undoing. They got a lot of hype behind them because they somehow convinced the world that they would become the "GSL of North America". They were aiming too high. First of all, they lacked the experienced, professional crew of GomTV; they were probably a small group of passionate Starcraft 2 fans with little to no experience in the field of organising large-scale tournaments. Their live events reflected this time after time. Even WCS America didn't hold a candle to WCS Europe production-wise. Secondly, they made some weird business decisions. They decided to put the large majority of their money (which no-one knows the origin of) in their prize pool in the hope of attracting the best players in the scene. That obviously paid dividents, but it also left them with a budget that was too low for any kind of production consistent their ambition. Lastly, I always felt like they stubbornly refused to listen to any feedback. After the first season finale's sound debacle, the most obvious thing to do would have been to outsource the sound production, but they didn't. NASL 2 and 3 still had a lot of sound issues. Production-wise there was little improvement. It remained a tournament run by passionate friends, not by professionals. It is commendable that a passionate group of friends tried to set up a tournament of that scale, but as soon as it becomes a business, it needs to be run as a business by people who know to run a business.
I'm quite sure that it would have been better if they started small. This would have left a lot more room for experimentation and error.
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United States23455 Posts
On March 10 2014 22:35 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2014 02:35 TotalBiscuit wrote:On March 10 2014 02:26 jmbthirteen wrote:On March 10 2014 02:18 TotalBiscuit wrote:On March 09 2014 09:52 ssregitoss wrote:
check the viewer numbers.it tells the truth.nothing else.boring to watch. The viewer numbers that have shown substantial growth in viewership for regular weekly content you mean? I wonder how long some of the people who have been saying this have actually been around. I was around when IPL, NASL and even Proleague were getting 5-10k concurrents at most, not the 15-20k WCS NA, 20k+ Proleague or 30-40k WCS EU is getting now What we have actually seen, is a shift in how Starcraft is consumed and the kind of events that are being put on on a regular basis, which has resulted in some strange numbers that people without proper perspective interpret is DEDGAEM. not to mention, big events still pull in 100k concurrent viewers. I'd be surprised if IEM WC doesn't hit 100k this coming week. NASL had problems from the start. Look at all the people they have lost recently. Its not the viewership that made NASL shut down, but far more behind the scenes stuff. When you lose Frodan, Gretorp and Mr. Bitter all within a few months, that says something. These guys were all more than casters for NASL. IEM WC will go over 100k. Mark my words on that. IEM has barely any foreigners...
One of the foreigners they have is Naniwa who is probably ~6 foreigners for viewership. Also with star power Koreans like Jaedong, Polt, HerO, Taeja, MC, Life, Hyun, etc. I think viewership will be over 100k for a lot of this event.
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On March 10 2014 08:05 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2014 02:03 muzzy wrote:
Everyone who has these comments like "Oh, I've been watching for years but am bored now" doesn't seem to understand- The problem is personal, not with the game.
People get bored of everything. The fact that you could watch for years and just now get bored is an indication of how interesting SC2 is to watch.
If you don't find it entertaining, take a break!
I basically stopped playing and watched very little for around 6 months after HoTS came out, because I was bored.
I am back to playing now and in fact, this last season has been my most active since the first couple seasons of WoL.
I still absolutely love the game, both playing and watching, and the quality as a spectator is honestly SO much better now. Go back and try to watch games from 2011-2012 now and it's almost painful. The game has developed so much, not just in play, but also in the polish of the commentating, tournaments, interface and so forth.
You may find the game boring, but that is subjective. Objectively, it cannot be argued that it hasn't drastically improved. I try and watch every basketball game the Toronto Raptors play. I don't find it boring one bit. Well not since the Rudy Gay trade anyways. While there are still frustrating moments at times, overall it's been very exciting to watch.
That's totally cool that you find basketball entertaining enough to keep watching, but you're not disproving my point. For you, basketball is still exciting. That doesn't mean that it's any better or worse than any other sport/game, it just appeals more to you.
It's actually a good example to prove my point- I used to *love* basketball growing up. I played street games with my friends every day we had a chance, hours at a time. I watched tons of NBA and knew the Chicago Bulls lineup and stats like the back of my hand.
Now, I find basketball pretty boring. I mean, if I have to watch a sport, I'd still pick basketball, but it just doesn't appeal to me anymore. Does that mean basketball is flawed? No way! It just didn't hold my attention.
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On March 11 2014 04:02 muzzy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2014 08:05 geokilla wrote:On March 10 2014 02:03 muzzy wrote:
Everyone who has these comments like "Oh, I've been watching for years but am bored now" doesn't seem to understand- The problem is personal, not with the game.
People get bored of everything. The fact that you could watch for years and just now get bored is an indication of how interesting SC2 is to watch.
If you don't find it entertaining, take a break!
I basically stopped playing and watched very little for around 6 months after HoTS came out, because I was bored.
I am back to playing now and in fact, this last season has been my most active since the first couple seasons of WoL.
I still absolutely love the game, both playing and watching, and the quality as a spectator is honestly SO much better now. Go back and try to watch games from 2011-2012 now and it's almost painful. The game has developed so much, not just in play, but also in the polish of the commentating, tournaments, interface and so forth.
You may find the game boring, but that is subjective. Objectively, it cannot be argued that it hasn't drastically improved. I try and watch every basketball game the Toronto Raptors play. I don't find it boring one bit. Well not since the Rudy Gay trade anyways. While there are still frustrating moments at times, overall it's been very exciting to watch. That's totally cool that you find basketball entertaining enough to keep watching, but you're not disproving my point. For you, basketball is still exciting. That doesn't mean that it's any better or worse than any other sport/game, it just appeals more to you. It's actually a good example to prove my point- I used to *love* basketball growing up. I played street games with my friends every day we had a chance, hours at a time. I watched tons of NBA and knew the Chicago Bulls lineup and stats like the back of my hand. Now, I find basketball pretty boring. I mean, if I have to watch a sport, I'd still pick basketball, but it just doesn't appeal to me anymore. Does that mean basketball is flawed? No way! It just didn't hold my attention.
but as a business you have to view your product as flawed if it's not holding the consumer's interest anymore. esports exists because people see an angle for profit in it. if people don't want to watch the games, the profit potential starts to disappear. you'd better believe if a lot of people just suddenly stopped watching the NBA they would be having a crisis in their marketing room trying to figure out how to change and adapt and overcome their flaws
there are many people who are lifelong fans of basketball/baseball/other sports as teams and players come and go, so clearly there's a basis for thinking a game has somehow failed if it doesn't remain interesting over extended periods. baseball is going on 100+ years now, and people have probably been playing some form of soccer for centuries
if starcraft is "different" because it's a pc game, then we should stop trying so hard to force the "this is an eSPORT, we're playing SPORTS" thing because you're not holding it to the same standard as established sports models like NBA, NFL, MLB, or whatever. either it's a successful computer game or it's an unsuccessful sport (assuming the scene really is dying, which i'm not proffering an opinion on because i frankly don't care)
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On March 11 2014 03:00 maartendq wrote:
NASL's ambition was pretty much their undoing. They got a lot of hype behind them because they somehow convinced the world that they would become the "GSL of North America". They were aiming too high. First of all, they lacked the experienced, professional crew of GomTV; they were probably a small group of passionate Starcraft 2 fans with little to no experience in the field of organising large-scale tournaments. Their live events reflected this time after time. Even WCS America didn't hold a candle to WCS Europe production-wise. Secondly, they made some weird business decisions. They decided to put the large majority of their money (which no-one knows the origin of) in their prize pool in the hope of attracting the best players in the scene. That obviously paid dividents, but it also left them with a budget that was too low for any kind of production consistent their ambition. Lastly, I always felt like they stubbornly refused to listen to any feedback. After the first season finale's sound debacle, the most obvious thing to do would have been to outsource the sound production, but they didn't. NASL 2 and 3 still had a lot of sound issues. Production-wise there was little improvement. It remained a tournament run by passionate friends, not by professionals. It is commendable that a passionate group of friends tried to set up a tournament of that scale, but as soon as it becomes a business, it needs to be run as a business by people who know to run a business.
I'm quite sure that it would have been better if they started small. This would have left a lot more room for experimentation and error.
Well said, couldn't agree more.
Adieu NASL, it was fun while it lasted
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On March 10 2014 04:19 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2014 03:08 Yezzus wrote:
Is it due to the viewers? SC2 doesnt even reach the front page of twitch anymore at times The amount of people watching player streams has dropped significantly, but SC2 is still part of the "Big 3" when there are major tournaments on.
Not so sure of this. SC2 may become #4 pretty soon with how fast CS:GO is growing. The CS viewership for IEM was huge, and with how often valve puts it on sale for under $4 and how accessible shooters are in general, that trend may continue.
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So NASL's website doesn't even work anymore. Can we assume they have dissolved at this point?
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EPT
