On February 11 2014 10:18 MrProdigious wrote: I don't even understand why they need to nerf blink? hasn't it been the same cool down for years? it isn't blinking to quickly that's the problem. I really hope they don't change it. The effects on PvP and PvZ will be crazy.
There really aren't that many ways to nerf it, they've already made it one of the longest researches in the game and they can't move it up the tech tree anywhere, nerfing the blink distance wont' really do anything, they simply don't have that many numbers left to work with directly related to blink. Something needs to give as it's just too strong as a TvP timing to punish pre-sitm timings and they're running out of things to do the mothership core.
Well, the solution is rather simple, no? Just buff stim pack's research time. Protoss can still defend easily with the mothership core in HotS. There, fixed! This should solve Terran's problem without breaking blink.
On February 11 2014 04:58 DarkLordOlli wrote: Blink cooldown is too much.
Agreed. I think a better solution is for blink research to take an extra 30-60 seconds.
Zero reason not to open stargate in PvP with this.
Arguable, but also not a big deal even if it is the case. IMO stargate openers are a) the most fun and b) produce the best games.
And PvT blink openings would die out as well
I think this is kinda the point (and I'm ok with it). Blink is very, VERY scary for a short window in the early game. Making it less scary is definitely good, IMO.
It really isn't, one base stargate openers are at a build order advantage against every build except blink openers in PvP right now. 3 gate stargate kills almost every expand build outright, it deals with DT's no problem (oracle can detect), it outright kills any robo play, and it's not hard to defend 3 gate pressure with it. Blink builds are strong against it, which is the only reason it doesn't always show up every single game.
And how exactly do blink builds combat this that relies not on making a high stalker count faster and viable but on conscecutive blinks?
Blink builds are strong because you can blink it, kill a pylon or two or some probes, then blink out, and the enemy force can't catch them. If you can blink 2/3 as often as you could before (that's what this change is doing), you'll be taking a much bigger risk for small returns, and you are much less likely to be able to outrun the enemy. Add in that all forms of direct attacks with stalkers rely on being able to blink stalkers back behind other units as they take damage, and it's easy to see why the nerf is a big deal. If you poke to my natural, get deflected and have to blink away to avoid a force field trap, I now have 5 additional seconds to get out more units or split my units before your next poke comes in my main or natural. This is a significant drop in the viability of this kind of play, and the only thing stopping people from opening stargate every game is the expectation that your opponent might go blink, which is at a big build order advantage vs. stargate. If people are less likely to go blink because blink is worse, then stargate will be even more popular because there will be less blind countering.
Yes, PvP is actually this dumb.
Further, blink stalkers has always been the penultimate example of a protoss unit designed correctly. It should not be nerfed.
I know PvP is stupid. But isn't this a problem with the SG (more exactly, the Oracle? Guess once which buff everybody has hated for ages. Oracle is the prime example for a unit that could use a Fleet Beacon Research)..? Is PvP being a terrible matchup because Warpgate is a idioticly designed "race-defining mechanic" a reason to make Blink Stalkers in TvP as good as they are?
What nerf would you propose as an alternative (that being said, I'm all for looking how the vision nerf turns out first!!!!)
It's not explicitly the oracle, as phoenix basically cause the same issue (and are actually better IMO). Voidrays being strong early game in PvP (they get weaker as the game goes on because archons tank them very well, and ground upgrades outstrip air upgrades), combined with the harass potential of oracles or phoenix and the detection an oracle provides makes stargate an all around powerful opening build. Taking away the oracle speed wouldn't solve the problem, as long as phoenix and void rays exist stargate is going to be strong (it was very strong in WoL too, it was just that blink was more common).
Warpgate isn't even really the problem in PvP, as the mothership core deals with that reasonably well. The problem is that, for the most part, tech choices for both players are made when neither player can scout, so players have to play blindly and every tech choice is countered by at least one other choice.
Hmm idk DK, why would everyone assume that all the "test map" changes will just become a patch later on? Could it be because you have a history of routinely doing just that while wholly ignoring the community's opinion on the proposed changes??
blink change is extreme, but i think protoss overreact. it's not like you don't have a good lategame against terran, it's just not as easy as the blink BS that happened up until now
i think they could change blink differently, or reduce the nerf to 12 seconds, but else, this is looking at least like it tries to get us out of the "protoss freewins every game" situation i hope.
On February 11 2014 10:31 magnaflow wrote: Are hydras able to stutter step now? Would be cool to see some marine like hydra micro
Marines attack animation is different. They are always firing, whereas the hydra actually shoots individual projectiles, so they will never be able to stutter step like marines. However you already can stutter step them as far as kiting goes.
On February 11 2014 10:31 magnaflow wrote: Are hydras able to stutter step now? Would be cool to see some marine like hydra micro
They already can, sort of, on creep. Typically though, forcefields and colossus will fuck them up so quickly that it's not worth it. Too slow generally, and too much shit that interferes. Don't see it changing much. In fact, this will change absolutely nothing about how the unit is used, it's most boring and unimaginative way to improve them.
I guess they'll kill phoenixes slightly quicker when bad protosses park them over a hydra pack, but that's about it.
On February 11 2014 04:59 GreenMash wrote: good changes but NERF SWARM HOSTS
This...Superbad unit is Ubercrap...
The increase in 2hr games with Zerg is just...ummm....viewer numbing and culling...
But how to change the SH to make them still viable but weak for a turtling player? Suggestions anyone?
I'm pretty sure they're hesitant to nerf anything zerg given how flimsy they can be, so they're trying to add things that counter super passive SH/static defense styles. The tempest change is what they're playing around with first.
Ah ,,yeah I guess you are right...
Actually one thing I thought about was : what if spores and spines no longer counted as structures (only in the sense of elimination?) The fact zerg can just move their spores and spines with the SH is really BM I feel...
On February 11 2014 04:58 DarkLordOlli wrote: Blink cooldown is too much.
Agreed. I think a better solution is for blink research to take an extra 30-60 seconds.
Zero reason not to open stargate in PvP with this.
Arguable, but also not a big deal even if it is the case. IMO stargate openers are a) the most fun and b) produce the best games.
And PvT blink openings would die out as well
I think this is kinda the point (and I'm ok with it). Blink is very, VERY scary for a short window in the early game. Making it less scary is definitely good, IMO.
It really isn't, one base stargate openers are at a build order advantage against every build except blink openers in PvP right now. 3 gate stargate kills almost every expand build outright, it deals with DT's no problem (oracle can detect), it outright kills any robo play, and it's not hard to defend 3 gate pressure with it. Blink builds are strong against it, which is the only reason it doesn't always show up every single game.
And how exactly do blink builds combat this that relies not on making a high stalker count faster and viable but on conscecutive blinks?
Blink builds are strong because you can blink it, kill a pylon or two or some probes, then blink out, and the enemy force can't catch them. If you can blink 2/3 as often as you could before (that's what this change is doing), you'll be taking a much bigger risk for small returns, and you are much less likely to be able to outrun the enemy. Add in that all forms of direct attacks with stalkers rely on being able to blink stalkers back behind other units as they take damage, and it's easy to see why the nerf is a big deal. If you poke to my natural, get deflected and have to blink away to avoid a force field trap, I now have 5 additional seconds to get out more units or split my units before your next poke comes in my main or natural. This is a significant drop in the viability of this kind of play, and the only thing stopping people from opening stargate every game is the expectation that your opponent might go blink, which is at a big build order advantage vs. stargate. If people are less likely to go blink because blink is worse, then stargate will be even more popular because there will be less blind countering.
Yes, PvP is actually this dumb.
Further, blink stalkers has always been the penultimate example of a protoss unit designed correctly. It should not be nerfed.
I know PvP is stupid. But isn't this a problem with the SG (more exactly, the Oracle? Guess once which buff everybody has hated for ages. Oracle is the prime example for a unit that could use a Fleet Beacon Research)..? Is PvP being a terrible matchup because Warpgate is a idioticly designed "race-defining mechanic" a reason to make Blink Stalkers in TvP as good as they are?
What nerf would you propose as an alternative (that being said, I'm all for looking how the vision nerf turns out first!!!!)
It's not explicitly the oracle, as phoenix basically cause the same issue (and are actually better IMO). Voidrays being strong early game in PvP (they get weaker as the game goes on because archons tank them very well, and ground upgrades outstrip air upgrades), combined with the harass potential of oracles or phoenix and the detection an oracle provides makes stargate an all around powerful opening build. Taking away the oracle speed wouldn't solve the problem, as long as phoenix and void rays exist stargate is going to be strong (it was very strong in WoL too, it was just that blink was more common).
Warpgate isn't even really the problem in PvP, as the mothership core deals with that reasonably well. The problem is that, for the most part, tech choices for both players are made when neither player can scout, so players have to play blindly and every tech choice is countered by at least one other choice.
I understand all this, but how could that be fixed, is the question. PvP is just a clusterfuck of a matchup which all comes down to warpgate ignoring defenders advantage...
I still think blink time is kinda fine, maybe 1/2 seconds, but going for +50% is rough.
On February 11 2014 04:58 DarkLordOlli wrote: Blink cooldown is too much.
Agreed. I think a better solution is for blink research to take an extra 30-60 seconds.
Zero reason not to open stargate in PvP with this.
Arguable, but also not a big deal even if it is the case. IMO stargate openers are a) the most fun and b) produce the best games.
And PvT blink openings would die out as well
I think this is kinda the point (and I'm ok with it). Blink is very, VERY scary for a short window in the early game. Making it less scary is definitely good, IMO.
It really isn't, one base stargate openers are at a build order advantage against every build except blink openers in PvP right now. 3 gate stargate kills almost every expand build outright, it deals with DT's no problem (oracle can detect), it outright kills any robo play, and it's not hard to defend 3 gate pressure with it. Blink builds are strong against it, which is the only reason it doesn't always show up every single game.
And how exactly do blink builds combat this that relies not on making a high stalker count faster and viable but on conscecutive blinks?
Blink builds are strong because you can blink it, kill a pylon or two or some probes, then blink out, and the enemy force can't catch them. If you can blink 2/3 as often as you could before (that's what this change is doing), you'll be taking a much bigger risk for small returns, and you are much less likely to be able to outrun the enemy. Add in that all forms of direct attacks with stalkers rely on being able to blink stalkers back behind other units as they take damage, and it's easy to see why the nerf is a big deal. If you poke to my natural, get deflected and have to blink away to avoid a force field trap, I now have 5 additional seconds to get out more units or split my units before your next poke comes in my main or natural. This is a significant drop in the viability of this kind of play, and the only thing stopping people from opening stargate every game is the expectation that your opponent might go blink, which is at a big build order advantage vs. stargate. If people are less likely to go blink because blink is worse, then stargate will be even more popular because there will be less blind countering.
Yes, PvP is actually this dumb.
Further, blink stalkers has always been the penultimate example of a protoss unit designed correctly. It should not be nerfed.
I know PvP is stupid. But isn't this a problem with the SG (more exactly, the Oracle? Guess once which buff everybody has hated for ages. Oracle is the prime example for a unit that could use a Fleet Beacon Research)..? Is PvP being a terrible matchup because Warpgate is a idioticly designed "race-defining mechanic" a reason to make Blink Stalkers in TvP as good as they are?
What nerf would you propose as an alternative (that being said, I'm all for looking how the vision nerf turns out first!!!!)
Warpgate isn't even really the problem in PvP, as the mothership core deals with that reasonably well. The problem is that, for the most part, tech choices for both players are made when neither player can scout, so players have to play blindly and every tech choice is countered by at least one other choice.
So you mean a lot like how Terrans feel versus Toss nowadays..except we don't have a get out of jail free core to help us out..
On February 11 2014 10:14 Nebuchad wrote: Can we get pro players to react on these proposed changes, like we did last time? Just because these aren't awful doesn't mean insight isn't warranted. Pro players speaking their mind shouldn't be a scolding, it should be an asset.
There'll be a TL post up in a day or so
And I thought I was being Coy with my face.
its on the way, will take time to put together but hopefully sooner rather than later
On February 11 2014 10:32 Survivor61316 wrote: Hmm idk DK, why would everyone assume that all the "test map" changes will just become a patch later on? Could it be because you have a history of routinely doing just that while wholly ignoring the community's opinion on the proposed changes??
There have been lots of test map changes that didn't go in (DT speed buff, oracle gas cost, burrow cost) or partially went in (widow mine nerf, banshee cloak buff, roach burrow speed). They do listen to community feedback. Maybe not as quickly as people we like, but of course they don't listen to everyone's feedback because some people are so blinded by emotion or are have just terrible ideas.
On February 11 2014 10:14 Nebuchad wrote: Can we get pro players to react on these proposed changes, like we did last time? Just because these aren't awful doesn't mean insight isn't warranted. Pro players speaking their mind shouldn't be a scolding, it should be an asset.
There'll be a TL post up in a day or so
And I thought I was being Coy with my face.
its on the way, will take time to put together but hopefully sooner rather than later
Good to hear, it was an interesting read last time.
On February 11 2014 10:32 Survivor61316 wrote: Hmm idk DK, why would everyone assume that all the "test map" changes will just become a patch later on? Could it be because you have a history of routinely doing just that while wholly ignoring the community's opinion on the proposed changes??
lol, very few of the changes they implement make it in to actual balance patches and very rarely do they get implemented without the initial proposed change at least being tweaked.
On February 11 2014 04:59 GreenMash wrote: good changes but NERF SWARM HOSTS
This...Superbad unit is Ubercrap...
The increase in 2hr games with Zerg is just...ummm....viewer numbing and culling...
But how to change the SH to make them still viable but weak for a turtling player? Suggestions anyone?
Make locust movement range smaller, offline time longer, make hosts able to move 'over' locust (like collosi can), slight decrease in locust speed... hundreds of options really.
Have SH unburrow (or are exposed and cannot move) everytime they unload locusts, make it so that it is not auto cast and that the player must manually unload. This would allow for some sort of element of surprise.
Remove or decrease the time enduring locust lengthens locust life, but in return make SH move faster. This would allow for more hit and run tactics. Then slightly reduce the attack speed or attack of individual locusts since locusts do have a high dps.
Also like SC2Toastie said, make it so that SH are able to walk over locust.
Vision range nerf is tooo much!!...10 or 12 is more reasonable...the MSC vision range is soooo big to start with to help scout proxies in the proxy heavy world of PvP...
And I am very anti the increase in blink cooldown time...
someone suggested faster stim research time...I like this!!!!~~~ But I am bias towards marines ,,,cos they are sooo cute and ambitious!!!~~
On February 11 2014 04:59 GreenMash wrote: good changes but NERF SWARM HOSTS
This...Superbad unit is Ubercrap...
The increase in 2hr games with Zerg is just...ummm....viewer numbing and culling...
But how to change the SH to make them still viable but weak for a turtling player? Suggestions anyone?
Make locust movement range smaller, offline time longer, make hosts able to move 'over' locust (like collosi can), slight decrease in locust speed... hundreds of options really.
Have SH unburrow (or are exposed and cannot move) everytime they unload locusts, make it so that it is not auto cast and that the player must manually unload. This would allow for some sort of element of surprise.
Remove or decrease the time enduring locust lengthens locust life, but in return make SH move faster. This would allow for more hit and run tactics. Then slightly reduce the attack speed or attack of individual locusts since locusts do have a high dps.
Also like SC2Toastie said, make it so that SH are able to walk over locust.
They sound like reasonable answers...more hit and run oriented Sh would be a lot more fun to watch and use...Nice suggestion dude!!
On February 11 2014 10:45 AxiomBlurr wrote: Vision range nerf is tooo much!!...10 or 12 is more reasonable...the MSC vision range is soooo big to start with to help scout proxies in the proxy heavy world of PvP...
Maybe just learn to scout for proxies with a probe and count pylons like other races have had to do since forever?
On February 11 2014 10:18 MrProdigious wrote: I don't even understand why they need to nerf blink? hasn't it been the same cool down for years? it isn't blinking to quickly that's the problem. I really hope they don't change it. The effects on PvP and PvZ will be crazy.
There really aren't that many ways to nerf it, they've already made it one of the longest researches in the game and they can't move it up the tech tree anywhere, nerfing the blink distance wont' really do anything, they simply don't have that many numbers left to work with directly related to blink. Something needs to give as it's just too strong as a TvP timing to punish pre-sitm timings and they're running out of things to do the mothership core.
Well, the solution is rather simple, no? Just buff stim pack's research time. Protoss can still defend easily with the mothership core in HotS. There, fixed! This should solve Terran's problem without breaking blink.
This would have run on effects in TvZ as well as really altering some other staple PvT builds, I know it was like this early on in WoL so it's hard to say that it would be "imbalanced" but it also might be even more far-reaching then just changing blink. It also only solves the problem for Bio (which admittedly is what most Terran's play) but traditionally it has been an even larger constrictor on Mech openings so it would be nice to have some movement on that side of things.
There's also some ways that good protoss players can delay their mothership core in favor of sentries if they're confident they can deal with reapers, faster stim would be really damaging to that kind of meta-game movement, if they can adjust the mothership core's ability to swing back with aggression then it might become more of a choice and we'll see some movement in the early game of the PvT match up.
Now that might be all worth it in favour of fixing the balance side of it, but it's not a simple fix, it rarely is.
EPT
face. 
