On February 11 2014 07:14 xxjcdentonxx wrote: [quote]
Does that mean that currently, the shield damage is applied to only one single unit, whichever is directly hit?
Yes. With this change it's actually pretty feasible that 2 widow mines wipe 75% or so of a mineral line given the base range, splash range, and damage in the splash range. If you drop 2 mines in a mineral line and they both happen to shoot inward it's pretty much GG.
So micro your probes away?
This is Starcraft, after all.
Do you know how hard that is? If you select them all quickly and pull you're actually increasing the chances that one hit could kill your whole mineral line (it has happened to me many times).
It's like having to split marines against an instant bling detonation. Except in your worker line.
Aww
Still better for you than pre mine nerf for TvZ, so stop whining about microing probes. If you let a 1/1/1 get mines in your mineral line AND are to slow to respond you deserver to lose workers.
Have you ever even played Protoss? Because I've played Terran. A lot. For starters, a medivac is the same size on the minimap as a marine. For comparison a Warp Prism is 4x as big on the minimap. With Turbovacs it moves insanely fast. So unless you are staring at your base, it's quite hard to catch immediately.
Then there's the issue of splitting the workers. When the mines drop they spread out quite a bit because of the speed the Medivac is traveling at. So you basically have 3 seconds to decide where the ideal place to send every probe is and to actually click there.
And then one misclick can cost you close to every single probe (I'm not exaggerating here and I can show you replays of me as Terran doing this to Protosses on ladder).
Then there's the fact that you don't even get an attack warning, because the widow mine hit is instantaneous...so when you do hear "your workers are under attack" it means half of them are already dead and you better get an observer over there fast.
So yes. It's very hard to deal with unless you're fucking Hawkeye. Now add the fact that Protoss has the most difficult time recovering from worker losses (no MULES, can't make 15 drones at once) and you'll see why every Protoss player is up in arms about this widow mine patch. I really don't think its unreasonable to be upset by this.
Is your replay pre or post wm nerf? No offense but this sounds like a bunch of whining to me. You have cannons, photon overcharge, etc.
You also have chrono boost, let's not short ourselves in the economy talk. After many games of being proxy-oracled, proxy DT drop, blink all-in, your counter rebuttal makes me laugh. EDIT: Laughable in a sense that scv losses are almost guaranteed by all three of those builds I just mentioned.
There's a lot of irony in you writing that his post sounds like whining(which it isn't) and then your next paragraph is full of you whining. You also refer to someone who stated that he is a Terran player in the second person, implying that he is a Protoss. Your post reads like the internet equivalent of walking up to a stranger, saying "no offense", and then kicking them in the balls and spitting in their face.
Also wtf is a proxy DT drop? Are you telling me that an early game investment of 600 as SHOULDNT kill any probes? How would you even take serious damage from a proxy build that requires 600 gas you should easily be ready for something like that.
Blink is getting nerfed deservedly so don't worry about that anymore, and proxy oracle isn't as popular because of the high prevalence of reaper expands with heavy scouting.
That's not a "proxy DT drop". He did a totally standard DT drop build except he just hid the dark shrine. And of course Bbyong made my point, bad play is the only way something like that works. Bbyongs reaper WALKED BY and IGNORED the probe that scouted his whole base and then built the twilight+DT shrine. Then he leaves a good portion of his bio force standing in the middle of the map doing absolutely nothing, the attack hits right after Bbyong dropped his mules(poor luck), and doesn't have any turrets anywhere.
You showed me a pro game that ISNT a "proxy DT drop" and showed the opponent playing badly and getting bad luck. Thanks for wasting my time.
This was a proxy DT drop. Of course the robotics isn't proxied, what would be the point when you can safely have it at home to produce Colossi afterwards... Your analysis is ridiculous; whether ABomb proxied the Dark shrine with a Probe that should have been destroyed or not is irrelevant since he could just have sent another Probe to proxy that. Bad play isn't at all the only way this works, if DTs hit while Terran has no scan available, Protoss instantly wins from essentially building something unscoutable somewhere on the map. But I am sure mid-GM EU players winning against Code S opponents (I think the same thing happened to jjakji today in GO4SC2) because of a single unit is totally fair for you.
Blink cooldown will likely effect too much, blink stalkers are really border line in a lot of situations as a tech choice and any nerf to them just pushes us towards the more boring options, really hope they can find a different change that is more limited to the TvP timing.
Hydra change as people have been discussing is the least interesting change they could have made and runs the risk of not doing anything in ZvP where it's desperately needed to combat protoss air without having to rely so heavily on the queen or corruptor, they're simply too fragile as-is.
I like the widow mine change, tempest change needs to be closely monitored but I think will be okay and the mothership core radius relatively innocuous all things considered.
On February 11 2014 08:39 SC2Toastie wrote: Yes, it weakens the all in if you commit into the main base, but guess what, blinking into a main base should be a commitment, right?
No it shouldn't. Stalkers are not particularly good units. Their mobility makes them useful because they can survive and keep doing damage. Adding 5 extra seconds to Blink cooldown makes a Blink very all-in.
You see more Protosses going Blink Stalkers now to abuse the immobility of Swarm Hosts. They rely on Blink to take fights against packs of Hydras when they have to.
This rather huge nerf to Blink is a bit overboard, especially with all the other nerfs specifically targeting blink allins (time warp, mothership core vision, to an extent widow mine).
I'm surprised at the positive feedback for a blink change. Blink cooldown was never REALLY the issue with Blink builds in PvT as I see it, and it makes blink pressure/contain styles in PvP a lot less effective, which is actually quite entertaining to me.
I know not all of these will go live, but a world with nerfed Blink Stalkers, nerfed MSC and stronger hydras increases the Protoss incentive to turtle and not be aggressive in the midgame in PvZ, which is potentially big.
On February 11 2014 07:17 DinoMight wrote: [quote]
Yes. With this change it's actually pretty feasible that 2 widow mines wipe 75% or so of a mineral line given the base range, splash range, and damage in the splash range. If you drop 2 mines in a mineral line and they both happen to shoot inward it's pretty much GG.
So micro your probes away?
This is Starcraft, after all.
Do you know how hard that is? If you select them all quickly and pull you're actually increasing the chances that one hit could kill your whole mineral line (it has happened to me many times).
It's like having to split marines against an instant bling detonation. Except in your worker line.
Aww
Still better for you than pre mine nerf for TvZ, so stop whining about microing probes. If you let a 1/1/1 get mines in your mineral line AND are to slow to respond you deserver to lose workers.
Have you ever even played Protoss? Because I've played Terran. A lot. For starters, a medivac is the same size on the minimap as a marine. For comparison a Warp Prism is 4x as big on the minimap. With Turbovacs it moves insanely fast. So unless you are staring at your base, it's quite hard to catch immediately.
Then there's the issue of splitting the workers. When the mines drop they spread out quite a bit because of the speed the Medivac is traveling at. So you basically have 3 seconds to decide where the ideal place to send every probe is and to actually click there.
And then one misclick can cost you close to every single probe (I'm not exaggerating here and I can show you replays of me as Terran doing this to Protosses on ladder).
Then there's the fact that you don't even get an attack warning, because the widow mine hit is instantaneous...so when you do hear "your workers are under attack" it means half of them are already dead and you better get an observer over there fast.
So yes. It's very hard to deal with unless you're fucking Hawkeye. Now add the fact that Protoss has the most difficult time recovering from worker losses (no MULES, can't make 15 drones at once) and you'll see why every Protoss player is up in arms about this widow mine patch. I really don't think its unreasonable to be upset by this.
Is your replay pre or post wm nerf? No offense but this sounds like a bunch of whining to me. You have cannons, photon overcharge, etc.
You also have chrono boost, let's not short ourselves in the economy talk. After many games of being proxy-oracled, proxy DT drop, blink all-in, your counter rebuttal makes me laugh. EDIT: Laughable in a sense that scv losses are almost guaranteed by all three of those builds I just mentioned.
There's a lot of irony in you writing that his post sounds like whining(which it isn't) and then your next paragraph is full of you whining. You also refer to someone who stated that he is a Terran player in the second person, implying that he is a Protoss. Your post reads like the internet equivalent of walking up to a stranger, saying "no offense", and then kicking them in the balls and spitting in their face.
Also wtf is a proxy DT drop? Are you telling me that an early game investment of 600 as SHOULDNT kill any probes? How would you even take serious damage from a proxy build that requires 600 gas you should easily be ready for something like that.
Blink is getting nerfed deservedly so don't worry about that anymore, and proxy oracle isn't as popular because of the high prevalence of reaper expands with heavy scouting.
That's not a "proxy DT drop". He did a totally standard DT drop build except he just hid the dark shrine. And of course Bbyong made my point, bad play is the only way something like that works. Bbyongs reaper WALKED BY and IGNORED the probe that scouted his whole base and then built the twilight+DT shrine. Then he leaves a good portion of his bio force standing in the middle of the map doing absolutely nothing, the attack hits right after Bbyong dropped his mules(poor luck), and doesn't have any turrets anywhere.
You showed me a pro game that ISNT a "proxy DT drop" and showed the opponent playing badly and getting bad luck. Thanks for wasting my time.
This was a proxy DT drop. Of course the robotics isn't proxied, what would be the point when you can safely have it at home to produce Colossi afterwards... Your analysis is ridiculous; whether ABomb proxied the Dark shrine with a Probe that should have been destroyed or not is irrelevant since he could just have sent another Probe to proxy that. Bad play isn't at all the only way this works, if DTs hit while Terran has no scan available, Protoss instantly wins from essentially building something unscoutable somewhere on the map. But I am sure mid-GM EU players winning against Code S opponents (I think the same thing happened to jjakji today in GO4SC2) because of a single unit is totally fair for you.
As long as it is a unit in his own race, sure :p There's a lot of highly hypocritical tosses around...
On February 11 2014 08:39 SC2Toastie wrote: Yes, it weakens the all in if you commit into the main base, but guess what, blinking into a main base should be a commitment, right?
No it shouldn't. Stalkers are not particularly good units. Their mobility makes them useful because they can survive and keep doing damage. Adding 5 extra seconds to Blink cooldown makes a Blink very all-in.
You see more Protosses going Blink Stalkers now to abuse the immobility of Swarm Hosts. They rely on Blink to take fights against packs of Hydras when they have to.
This rather huge nerf to Blink is a bit overboard, especially with all the other nerfs specifically targeting blink allins (time warp, mothership core vision, to an extent widow mine).
Blink cooldown increased from 10 to 15 This is a more direct nerf that affects all Protoss players. If Blink play continues to be problematic, this is the sort of thing we’d want to have tested and prepared to put in the game.
They didn't say they would instantly implement it.
On February 11 2014 09:20 DinoMight wrote: PvP will turn into Stargate vs. Stargate every game if the Blink change goes through. It's just way too drastic as is.
For sure, I've also seen hundreds of PvP games on the test map already!
Don't act like the blink cooldown comes into effect that much, you're not going to tell me you micro your blink stalkers by the second.
On February 11 2014 08:39 SC2Toastie wrote: Yes, it weakens the all in if you commit into the main base, but guess what, blinking into a main base should be a commitment, right?
No it shouldn't. Stalkers are not particularly good units. Their mobility makes them useful because they can survive and keep doing damage. Adding 5 extra seconds to Blink cooldown makes a Blink very all-in.
You see more Protosses going Blink Stalkers now to abuse the immobility of Swarm Hosts. They rely on Blink to take fights against packs of Hydras when they have to.
This rather huge nerf to Blink is a bit overboard, especially with all the other nerfs specifically targeting blink allins (time warp, mothership core vision, to an extent widow mine).
No it shouldn't. What? Moving your army into the opponents base should not be dangerous?
I'm done here. Go back to playing minesweeper please. Mine op. You're just blatantly whining without a single example or prove AT ALL. Blink doesn't disappear as you make it out to be.
On February 11 2014 09:20 DinoMight wrote: PvP will turn into Stargate vs. Stargate every game if the Blink change goes through. It's just way too drastic as is.
For sure, I've also seen hundreds of PvP games on the test map already!
Don't act like the blink cooldown comes into effect that much, you're not going to tell me you micro your blink stalkers by the second.
Blinking in is going to be more dangerous because you have to stay in their base 1.5x as long.
On February 11 2014 06:00 DaveSprite wrote: [quote]
It removes 40 shield. The latter would be freaking retarded. Shield is a resource, like hp or energy, that can be decremented individually than either of the above.
Then how does the buff increase chances of killing workers with splash damage?
Assuming they haven't accidentally reverted the previous WM nerf as per my first post in this thread, AND the shield damage is appropriately proportioned the shot now does:
As you can see, there are probes farther from the shot that die.
Does that mean that currently, the shield damage is applied to only one single unit, whichever is directly hit?
Yes. With this change it's actually pretty feasible that 2 widow mines wipe 75% or so of a mineral line given the base range, splash range, and damage in the splash range. If you drop 2 mines in a mineral line and they both happen to shoot inward it's pretty much GG.
So micro your probes away?
This is Starcraft, after all.
Do you know how hard that is? If you select them all quickly and pull you're actually increasing the chances that one hit could kill your whole mineral line (it has happened to me many times).
It's like having to split marines against an instant bling detonation. Except in your worker line.
Aww
Still better for you than pre mine nerf for TvZ, so stop whining about microing probes. If you let a 1/1/1 get mines in your mineral line AND are to slow to respond you deserver to lose workers.
Have you ever even played Protoss? Because I've played Terran. A lot. For starters, a medivac is the same size on the minimap as a marine. For comparison a Warp Prism is 4x as big on the minimap. With Turbovacs it moves insanely fast. So unless you are staring at your base, it's quite hard to catch immediately.
Then there's the issue of splitting the workers. When the mines drop they spread out quite a bit because of the speed the Medivac is traveling at. So you basically have 3 seconds to decide where the ideal place to send every probe is and to actually click there.
And then one misclick can cost you close to every single probe (I'm not exaggerating here and I can show you replays of me as Terran doing this to Protosses on ladder).
Then there's the fact that you don't even get an attack warning, because the widow mine hit is instantaneous...so when you do hear "your workers are under attack" it means half of them are already dead and you better get an observer over there fast.
So yes. It's very hard to deal with unless you're fucking Hawkeye. Now add the fact that Protoss has the most difficult time recovering from worker losses (no MULES, can't make 15 drones at once) and you'll see why every Protoss player is up in arms about this widow mine patch. I really don't think its unreasonable to be upset by this.
Is your replay pre or post wm nerf? No offense but this sounds like a bunch of whining to me. You have cannons, photon overcharge, etc.
You also have chrono boost, let's not short ourselves in the economy talk. After many games of being proxy-oracled, proxy DT drop, blink all-in, your counter rebuttal makes me laugh. EDIT: Laughable in a sense that scv losses are almost guaranteed by all three of those builds I just mentioned.
He means in the Splash Damage way. DT, Oracles and Stalkers shot one SCV at time while Widow Mines can deal damage in area. All of them can be shutdown. Oracle is one shot from Widow Mines, DTs require Detection, Widow Mines takes time to burrow. It's not easy as may sound but is possible.
but there is an upgrade for Protoss, that gives the vision back? (blink allin timing will have MSC with low vision, but regular or macro non blink builds will be able to get that 14 vision MSC back eventually in the game)
Assuming they haven't accidentally reverted the previous WM nerf as per my first post in this thread, AND the shield damage is appropriately proportioned the shot now does:
As you can see, there are probes farther from the shot that die.
Does that mean that currently, the shield damage is applied to only one single unit, whichever is directly hit?
Yes. With this change it's actually pretty feasible that 2 widow mines wipe 75% or so of a mineral line given the base range, splash range, and damage in the splash range. If you drop 2 mines in a mineral line and they both happen to shoot inward it's pretty much GG.
So micro your probes away?
This is Starcraft, after all.
Do you know how hard that is? If you select them all quickly and pull you're actually increasing the chances that one hit could kill your whole mineral line (it has happened to me many times).
It's like having to split marines against an instant bling detonation. Except in your worker line.
Aww
Still better for you than pre mine nerf for TvZ, so stop whining about microing probes. If you let a 1/1/1 get mines in your mineral line AND are to slow to respond you deserver to lose workers.
Have you ever even played Protoss? Because I've played Terran. A lot. For starters, a medivac is the same size on the minimap as a marine. For comparison a Warp Prism is 4x as big on the minimap. With Turbovacs it moves insanely fast. So unless you are staring at your base, it's quite hard to catch immediately.
Then there's the issue of splitting the workers. When the mines drop they spread out quite a bit because of the speed the Medivac is traveling at. So you basically have 3 seconds to decide where the ideal place to send every probe is and to actually click there.
And then one misclick can cost you close to every single probe (I'm not exaggerating here and I can show you replays of me as Terran doing this to Protosses on ladder).
Then there's the fact that you don't even get an attack warning, because the widow mine hit is instantaneous...so when you do hear "your workers are under attack" it means half of them are already dead and you better get an observer over there fast.
So yes. It's very hard to deal with unless you're fucking Hawkeye. Now add the fact that Protoss has the most difficult time recovering from worker losses (no MULES, can't make 15 drones at once) and you'll see why every Protoss player is up in arms about this widow mine patch. I really don't think its unreasonable to be upset by this.
Is your replay pre or post wm nerf? No offense but this sounds like a bunch of whining to me. You have cannons, photon overcharge, etc.
You also have chrono boost, let's not short ourselves in the economy talk. After many games of being proxy-oracled, proxy DT drop, blink all-in, your counter rebuttal makes me laugh. EDIT: Laughable in a sense that scv losses are almost guaranteed by all three of those builds I just mentioned.
He means in the Splash Damage way. DT, Oracles and Stalkers shot one SCV at time while Widow Mines can deal damage in area. All of them can be shutdown. Oracle is one shot from Widow Mines, DTs require Detection, Widow Mines takes time to burrow. It's not easy as may sound but is possible.
DT Stalker Oracle however deal guaranteed damage and force tons of shit of out Terran. A mine drop isn't even guaranteed to do damage and only deals good damage if the protoss opponent fucks up.
On February 11 2014 09:32 mikumegurine wrote: how bout go through with the MSC vision nerf
but there is an upgrade for Protoss, that gives the vision back? (so that after the blink allin timing, later in the game MSC can get that 14 vision back)
Why? They wanted their goddamn Oracles to be used in lategame, that's the opportunity.
On February 11 2014 09:32 mikumegurine wrote: how bout go through with the MSC vision nerf
but there is an upgrade for Protoss, that gives the vision back? (so that after the blink allin timing, later in the game MSC can get that 14 vision back)
Why? They wanted their goddamn Oracles to be used in lategame, that's the opportunity.
It'll take them some time to recognice Revelation duration is too long in non-turtle games where army movement and positioning matters, but oh well
On February 11 2014 04:58 DarkLordOlli wrote: Blink cooldown is too much.
Agreed. I think a better solution is for blink research to take an extra 30-60 seconds.
Zero reason not to open stargate in PvP with this.
Arguable, but also not a big deal even if it is the case. IMO stargate openers are a) the most fun and b) produce the best games.
And PvT blink openings would die out as well
I think this is kinda the point (and I'm ok with it). Blink is very, VERY scary for a short window in the early game. Making it less scary is definitely good, IMO.
On February 11 2014 08:39 SC2Toastie wrote: Yes, it weakens the all in if you commit into the main base, but guess what, blinking into a main base should be a commitment, right?
No it shouldn't. Stalkers are not particularly good units. Their mobility makes them useful because they can survive and keep doing damage. Adding 5 extra seconds to Blink cooldown makes a Blink very all-in.
You see more Protosses going Blink Stalkers now to abuse the immobility of Swarm Hosts. They rely on Blink to take fights against packs of Hydras when they have to.
This rather huge nerf to Blink is a bit overboard, especially with all the other nerfs specifically targeting blink allins (time warp, mothership core vision, to an extent widow mine).
Blink cooldown increased from 10 to 15 This is a more direct nerf that affects all Protoss players. If Blink play continues to be problematic, this is the sort of thing we’d want to have tested and prepared to put in the game.
They didn't say they would instantly implement it.
Thats what they say about every balance change they put into these maps, that doesn't mean they won't, and it doesn't mean they will. It's still something they are talking about and thinking about, so people are pointing out why it might be a bad move.
And i don't agree that widow mines will become annoying. They are annoying on their own vs toss already enough. It's not that they increased the splash radius.
anyways last balance test map .. i was so disappointed.. now i think blizzard is doing a good thing for tvp.
Although with the tempest and the hydra change. I don't know what will happen with zvp. Obviously we get a more microable hydra and deadlier tempest.
I think this is kinda the point (and I'm ok with it). Blink is very, VERY scary for a short window in the early game. Making it less scary is definitely good, IMO.
It really isn't, one base stargate openers are at a build order advantage against every build except blink openers in PvP right now. 3 gate stargate kills almost every expand build outright, it deals with DT's no problem (oracle can detect), it outright kills any robo play, and it's not hard to defend 3 gate pressure with it. Blink builds are strong against it, which is the only reason it doesn't always show up every single game.
On February 11 2014 09:32 mikumegurine wrote: how bout go through with the MSC vision nerf
but there is an upgrade for Protoss, that gives the vision back? (blink allin timing will have MSC with low vision, but regular or macro non blink builds will be able to get that 14 vision MSC back eventually in the game)
This upgrade already exists. It will increase the vision to 14 and cloak friendly units.
EPT
