Feb 10: Balance Test Map Coming - Page 24

Big J

Austria16289 Posts

February 10 2014 23:44 GMT

#461

On February 11 2014 08:39 SC2Toastie wrote:
As for the Hydra, I'd rather like to see a damage point change instead of a blunt attack speed buff.

yeah. it's kind od the most boring change in the eight direction they could do. and may be even over the top in certain ZvP scenarios.

Smigi

United States328 Posts

February 10 2014 23:49 GMT

#462

I disagree with the Blink nerd. It's too much. However, I'm loving this new attention toward the Hydralisk. It's a unit that needs some focus and fine tuning/buffs.

TheFish7

United States2824 Posts

February 10 2014 23:49 GMT

#463

Still no SH changes being contemplated. IMO they should change Timed Life for Locusts to "Lose HP over time until they die". This way it is harder to do consistent damage with locusts being sent halfway across the map. And enduring locusts could just reduce the rate of HP loss.

Also where were these hydralisk buffs back in WoL lol

Derez

Netherlands6068 Posts

February 10 2014 23:52 GMT

#464

Can't they just remove timewarp and solve a whole host of issues with all-ins and the MSC? Wouldn't need a blink nerf or anything like it and its not like timewarp adds anything interesting to the game.

CannonsNCarriers

United States638 Posts

February 10 2014 23:52 GMT

#465

How many "+damage to shield" things are they going to add before DK gets that there is something wrong with the way they designed TvP?

Treemonkeys

United States2082 Posts

February 10 2014 23:53 GMT

#466

I really think the MSC should be reduced to even 1 or 2 vision range to reinforce that it is a defensive/support unit.

iHirO

United Kingdom1381 Posts

February 10 2014 23:53 GMT

#467

Google Translation*:

Mothership Core vision radius decreased from 14 to 9
We feel that listening to what people shout the most about on the forums is an effective way to balance our game, also we'd really like to see Maru make it to the next round of Code S.
Blink cooldown increased from 10 to 15
Players that individually micro units in battles are unfairly stealing wins from more mechanically challenged opponents and we want to put a stop to this nonsense.
Widow Mine splash damage component deals 40 + 40 shield damage
We're meching it happen. Terrans only got one new unit in HotS (transforming hellions don't count) and were determined that they use it in every match up. Also lets ignore the fact that the Widow Mine's attack ignores the Immortal's Hardened Shell.
Tempest ground weapon damage increased from 30 to 30+30-to-structures
The Swarm Host is our baby, we love how it burrows and sends waves of cute little units across the map; it's not up for discussion... not even when Stephano insists on playing 3+ hour games against FireCake. Also I watched Independence Day yesterday and I really liked the bit where the Alien mothership blows up all the cities.
Hydralisk delay between attacks decreased from .83 to .75
We're hoping Zergs will learn to stutter step.

* Not to be taken seriously.

Tresher

Germany404 Posts

February 10 2014 23:53 GMT

#468

On February 11 2014 08:35 ZAiNs wrote:

Show nested quote +

Death Note is the best hentai.

dafuq guys Death Note isnt hentai...

Intersting changes. I like the blink cooldown and the Wm buff most. They promised to make Mech attractive vs P but it seems a little bit forced. Tempest I dont like , this unit shouldnt be in the game. They should really look at Swarmhosts like they promised since last Blizzcon. And Hydra buff: Hmmm Neutral on that. But is it really the damage thats the problem? I dont think so. Theres already so much units with insane DPS *coughmarinecough* ending combats in secs so I dont think its good to buff attackspeed. maybe 75 mins or 1 supply just like in BW.

Squat

Sweden7978 Posts

February 10 2014 23:54 GMT

#469

On February 11 2014 08:43 JacobShock wrote:
a zerg anti air buff, I approve!

Eh, marginal at best. The problem with the hydra is not its sustained DPS, it's, well, just about everything else. It's still slow, still fragile, still expensive, still needs two upgrades to not be complete shit. Queen is still the best AA for zerg.

Vanadiel

France961 Posts

February 11 2014 00:03 GMT

#470

I find it funny that everyone just keep saying to just "fix the swarm host", as it was the only problematic unit. To me, that would be to fix all the boring units, that you build and turtle with it until you have a death ball. So the Swarmhost is one of them for sure, but the raven is as shitty and boring as the Swarmhost, and the Void Ray is not that far behind.

For sure the SH is problematic, but as crazy as it sound late game boring vs boring in Zv* is more or less balanced, so without it, how do you ever win against a skymech/skytoss late game composition? You just don't, you are never going to win at this point of the game. To me, the different solution are therefore to :

- nerf/tweak/change all boring units for all three races and keep the game balanced.
- big nerf to the SH, but to compensate make it way harder to get to that max skymech/toss army,either by making raven/VR cost more gaz or something like that, or buffing other options for the zerg to kill the enemy before they get to that stage of the game, I am thinking like buffing to mid/beginning of late game units such as hydra or Ultralisk, or other options as drop or nyddus play.
-

aZealot

New Zealand5447 Posts

February 11 2014 00:03 GMT

#471

I expect to see the MSC vision range changed to 11, consistent with all air units. The blink nerf is utter garbage - thankfully, it is something they are just looking at and therefore won't make it through.

I like the Hydra change. A better Hydra is better for Z and the game. (Even if there could be other ways of achieving it?)

As to WM and the Tempest, better leave well enough alone Blizzard. Think about it and maybe try again (or just leave it).

But, please consider Time Warp and make it an upgrade at Core (and affect friendly units too).

Deleted User 137586

7859 Posts

February 11 2014 00:05 GMT

#472

Wow, actually changes that the community has been asking for. I don't think this looks like the patch we're actually getting but msc vision nerf, WM and hydra together should be a nice patch.

Entropy137

Canada215 Posts

February 11 2014 00:05 GMT

#473

blink change is wayy to drastic

washikie

United States752 Posts

February 11 2014 00:06 GMT

#474

+ Show Spoiler +

I'm still a proponent of moving EMP to Raven and ditching one of the Raven's current spells.

Honestly this would just be a nerf to T because do you realy want to have to build 3-4 tech labed starports to transition to late game, I mean this would give terran much worse accessibility to emp, at least we can build ghosts out of tech labed raxes which you will have on hand because you are going to want marauders mid game. T is very limited by infrastructure so moving things away from the barracks will almost always nerf t. now changing ghost cost back to what it used to be on the other hand would be quite a nice buff.

Wingblade

United States1806 Posts

February 11 2014 00:08 GMT

#475

On February 11 2014 08:05 TheDwf wrote:

Show nested quote +

On February 11 2014 08:03 Wingblade wrote:

On February 11 2014 07:51 Ctone23 wrote:

On February 11 2014 07:38 DinoMight wrote:

On February 11 2014 07:30 SC2Toastie wrote:

On February 11 2014 07:27 DinoMight wrote:

On February 11 2014 07:20 Ctone23 wrote:

On February 11 2014 07:17 DinoMight wrote:

On February 11 2014 07:14 xxjcdentonxx wrote:

On February 11 2014 06:09 DaveSprite wrote:
[quote]

The shot splash currently does:

40 damage (kills probes)
20 damage (probe lives)
10 damage

Assuming they haven't accidentally reverted the previous WM nerf as per my first post in this thread, AND the shield damage is appropriately proportioned the shot now does:

40 damage + 40 shield (kills probe)
20 damage + 20 shield (kills probe)
10 damage + 10 shield (probe lives)

As you can see, there are probes farther from the shot that die.

Does that mean that currently, the shield damage is applied to only one single unit, whichever is directly hit?

Yes. With this change it's actually pretty feasible that 2 widow mines wipe 75% or so of a mineral line given the base range, splash range, and damage in the splash range. If you drop 2 mines in a mineral line and they both happen to shoot inward it's pretty much GG.

So micro your probes away?

This is Starcraft, after all.

Do you know how hard that is? If you select them all quickly and pull you're actually increasing the chances that one hit could kill your whole mineral line (it has happened to me many times).

It's like having to split marines against an instant bling detonation. Except in your worker line.

Aww

Still better for you than pre mine nerf for TvZ, so stop whining about microing probes. If you let a 1/1/1 get mines in your mineral line AND are to slow to respond you deserver to lose workers.

Have you ever even played Protoss? Because I've played Terran. A lot. For starters, a medivac is the same size on the minimap as a marine. For comparison a Warp Prism is 4x as big on the minimap. With Turbovacs it moves insanely fast. So unless you are staring at your base, it's quite hard to catch immediately.

Then there's the issue of splitting the workers. When the mines drop they spread out quite a bit because of the speed the Medivac is traveling at. So you basically have 3 seconds to decide where the ideal place to send every probe is and to actually click there.

And then one misclick can cost you close to every single probe (I'm not exaggerating here and I can show you replays of me as Terran doing this to Protosses on ladder).

Then there's the fact that you don't even get an attack warning, because the widow mine hit is instantaneous...so when you do hear "your workers are under attack" it means half of them are already dead and you better get an observer over there fast.

So yes. It's very hard to deal with unless you're fucking Hawkeye. Now add the fact that Protoss has the most difficult time recovering from worker losses (no MULES, can't make 15 drones at once) and you'll see why every Protoss player is up in arms about this widow mine patch. I really don't think its unreasonable to be upset by this.

Is your replay pre or post wm nerf? No offense but this sounds like a bunch of whining to me. You have cannons, photon overcharge, etc.

You also have chrono boost, let's not short ourselves in the economy talk. After many games of being proxy-oracled, proxy DT drop, blink all-in, your counter rebuttal makes me laugh. EDIT: Laughable in a sense that scv losses are almost guaranteed by all three of those builds I just mentioned.

There's a lot of irony in you writing that his post sounds like whining(which it isn't) and then your next paragraph is full of you whining. You also refer to someone who stated that he is a Terran player in the second person, implying that he is a Protoss. Your post reads like the internet equivalent of walking up to a stranger, saying "no offense", and then kicking them in the balls and spitting in their face.

Also wtf is a proxy DT drop? Are you telling me that an early game investment of 600 as SHOULDNT kill any probes? How would you even take serious damage from a proxy build that requires 600 gas you should easily be ready for something like that.

Blink is getting nerfed deservedly so don't worry about that anymore, and proxy oracle isn't as popular because of the high prevalence of reaper expands with heavy scouting.

That's not a "proxy DT drop". He did a totally standard DT drop build except he just hid the dark shrine. And of course Bbyong made my point, bad play is the only way something like that works. Bbyongs reaper WALKED BY and IGNORED the probe that scouted his whole base and then built the twilight+DT shrine. Then he leaves a good portion of his bio force standing in the middle of the map doing absolutely nothing, the attack hits right after Bbyong dropped his mules(poor luck), and doesn't have any turrets anywhere.

You showed me a pro game that ISNT a "proxy DT drop" and showed the opponent playing badly and getting bad luck. Thanks for wasting my time.

NKexquisite

United States911 Posts

February 11 2014 00:09 GMT

#476

Alright. Not bad.

mikumegurine

Canada3145 Posts

February 11 2014 00:10 GMT

#477

everyone start doing Rotterdam's 1base Proxy Tempest build!

going to own people so hard when Tempests will just melt buildings

Whitewing

United States7483 Posts

February 11 2014 00:12 GMT

#478

On February 11 2014 08:39 SC2Toastie wrote:
Why do people think 15 seconds will kill blink play before even testing?

Yes, it weakens the all in if you commit into the main base, but guess what, blinking into a main base should be a commitment, right? Meanwhile Frontal pushes are barely affected.

It makes stalkers vastly weaker in PvZ, especially against mtualisks. One of the reasons blink is even viable right now is that you can use them to buy time to get phoenix out if a muta switch comes, since they shouldn't be able to overwhelm you immediately. Blink cooldown increase means good luck ever catching them at all. This is a mobility nerf on the only ground protoss unit that is mobile at all. Combined with a buff to hydras making stargate openers weaker, this is starting to look like a PvZ nightmare.

It also weakens blink based aggression measurably. This won't have much of an impact in PvT on the all-in, but it will badly weaken blink based play in PvP and PvZ.

Jerom

Netherlands588 Posts

February 11 2014 00:14 GMT

#479

I feel like the current ZvP problem also has something to do with the current strength of the void rays. At the first few months of HOTS many people were saying that void rays were really OP and that they couldn't imagine them staying in the game like this. But Zerg managed to use swarm hosts turtle style against the void ray colossus deathball which works out, but is super boring to play/watch.

If they plan on redesigning or nerfing the swarm hosts, they should also look into void rays. Or they should look at the counters to void rays. Maybe they would make corruptors scale better with upgrades or something like that. Possibly an infestor buff or something (as much as Im afraid of end WoL infestors).

XtreMe_au

Australia412 Posts

February 11 2014 00:15 GMT

#480

Great proposed changes!
Now please just remove the swarm host and work out how to replace it with the lurker. You guys all are smart enough to figure it out.

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