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Biggest problem with the community is that they are unable to discern balance from their own games and insist that Blizzard changes the game based on what they as players have a hard time against. Its getting a bit over the top as a complaining culture on in game threads and more appropriate topics like this on team liquid.
Balance is hard to define and often is just that way due to current maps and the metagame. Some maps blink is really strong on...some maps swarm hosts are really strong...some maps drops are really strong. Not to say things aren't balanced, but they are about as balanced as Brood War was and the game is still evolving.
Another thing to note is that many people blind counter strats. I want to say that at least 4 of the last 5 games I built an oracle vs Terran there was a turret in one mineral line and marines in another and not once was my Stargate scouted. Nony played crazy safe blind countering early on with his 10 Gateway and get a zealot out quick just in case build. Certain things can just be stopped or slowed down.
We got the answers for the most part we expected from David Kim because the questions weren't all that good and especially because they put in the askers personal bias.
If you want a good answer from David Kim just ask
"Code S seems to be heavily Protoss and light on Terran in Korea where it use to be heavy Terran and light on Protoss. What do you think is causing this and how are you looking at addressing it?"
Then get ready to hear about a Mothership Core sight change or about how many of the historically best Terran players (Polt, Bomber, MVP, Taeja, MMA, Jjakji) are currently playing outside of Korea. But at least you'll get to hear David Kim's thoughts on something rather than just getting an answer we already know.
Also, remember that Protoss was archon toilet vs Broodlord Infestor and on the short end vs Terran during much of Wings of Liberty and many of the fixes to those problems were done during the next expansion. For all we know David Kim already has a new Terran unit that addresses what we see as a weakness in Terran slated for the expansion and as such isn't super interested in making more than minor adjustments until then. Not saying that is the best way to do things, but its the easiest way to plan the game I'd think.
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On February 06 2014 11:19 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 11:16 Squat wrote:On February 06 2014 11:11 Plansix wrote:On February 06 2014 11:09 Squat wrote:On February 06 2014 11:04 Whitewing wrote:On February 06 2014 10:46 Squat wrote:On February 06 2014 10:36 Whitewing wrote:
David does not get enough credit. For one thing, he's right 99% of the time when he gives these answers, but people all have their own agendas and biases and won't really consider what he says. Another is that he's right not to change design with patches, and obviously he can't comment on LOTV yet.
People get mad at him because they want something, unfortunately they're generally unwilling to consider that they are in fact wrong or off about what they want. Some people hate forcefields as a spell, problem is, as much as you might want to believe it, not everybody hates forcefields. I am perfectly capable of imagining that a protoss player is very fond of FF. It follows a concept that has been very prevalent with Blizzard for a while now; fun to use, not too difficult, and exceptionally frustrating to watch and play against. Except that there are things you can do about it. They made burrow move faster, moved burrow to hatch. Massive units crush them. Terrans lift forcefielded units all the time with medivacs. It's not that bad. The point is, complainers are very loud. It's not OP, it's just stupid and obnoxious. The fact that counter-moves exist does not make it less so. They are absurdly easy to use compared to the counters required to fight them. This is a common theme with protoss in general. If David feels they are a net positive for the game, so be it. I'm glad that I can at least know that it won't change. Almost every game with overhead control of units has stuns, roots, slows and other abilities that make it so you can't move. Dota 2 is filled with them and then people buy items that give them the ability to move their team mates out of harms way. Its good play and counter play. BW was filled with them as well. I agree, I'm pretty OG as far as dota goes(I was playing when the Gambler was in the game, for reference). The thing is, the counter play for dota is to use BKB or another immunity spell, or have teammates disable enemy heroes in turn. There is a balance in terms of relative difficulty involved. FF place the entire burden on the person being forcefielded, it requires too little to use and too much to counter. The relative difficulty is out of balance. It's kind of like zergs in WoL telling terrans to always keep their vikings spread to avoid the instant fungals. Sure it's doable, but one side has it much easier. Thats how all counter play works. One side has to do something and then the other side responds. First the protoss has to throw down good forcefields and split up the army, then the other player has to respond. Or the protoss army gets surrounded by zerglings and the protoss player responds by pushing them back with forcefields. All micro is back and forth.
And I'm saying it's too easy for one side. The difficulty involved is too lopsided.
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I really wonder whats his fulltime job because it sure as hell is not starcraft2. What it is that he does 90% of his work time?? He comes with bad maps every three months, lackluster patch that is very often not even significant to the game and sometimes (few times a year) he does small apperance in the community. stunning really.
If he at least had the balls to answer the hot topics.
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Northern Ireland25648 Posts
On February 06 2014 11:08 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 10:47 Wombat_NI wrote:
Zerg are by far my least played race, but all it takes is one game where you have a WP sentry drop FFing your ramp lol. Such a silly ability. Yea cuz this happens so often in pro games and is a major problem!
It's an extreme example of the stupidity of forcefield, which has never ever been looked at. Even high HP, non-aggroing destructible forcefields which would resolve that specific issue has never really been tested. With Warpgate you don't just remove it either, but there has never been anything done to it bar changes to research time since WoL's Beta.
I mean, by all means bring everything back to outright balance at the pro level, if that's what you're looking the game isn't in a terrible spot by any means. The people who are vocal whiners may be a huge minority, there just seems a hell of a lot of them, or a hell of a lot of people who no longer play and just watch the game. Which is fine, if they can be held onto in perpetuity.
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On February 06 2014 11:21 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 11:19 Plansix wrote:On February 06 2014 11:16 Squat wrote:On February 06 2014 11:11 Plansix wrote:On February 06 2014 11:09 Squat wrote:On February 06 2014 11:04 Whitewing wrote:On February 06 2014 10:46 Squat wrote:On February 06 2014 10:36 Whitewing wrote:
David does not get enough credit. For one thing, he's right 99% of the time when he gives these answers, but people all have their own agendas and biases and won't really consider what he says. Another is that he's right not to change design with patches, and obviously he can't comment on LOTV yet.
People get mad at him because they want something, unfortunately they're generally unwilling to consider that they are in fact wrong or off about what they want. Some people hate forcefields as a spell, problem is, as much as you might want to believe it, not everybody hates forcefields. I am perfectly capable of imagining that a protoss player is very fond of FF. It follows a concept that has been very prevalent with Blizzard for a while now; fun to use, not too difficult, and exceptionally frustrating to watch and play against. Except that there are things you can do about it. They made burrow move faster, moved burrow to hatch. Massive units crush them. Terrans lift forcefielded units all the time with medivacs. It's not that bad. The point is, complainers are very loud. It's not OP, it's just stupid and obnoxious. The fact that counter-moves exist does not make it less so. They are absurdly easy to use compared to the counters required to fight them. This is a common theme with protoss in general. If David feels they are a net positive for the game, so be it. I'm glad that I can at least know that it won't change. Almost every game with overhead control of units has stuns, roots, slows and other abilities that make it so you can't move. Dota 2 is filled with them and then people buy items that give them the ability to move their team mates out of harms way. Its good play and counter play. BW was filled with them as well. I agree, I'm pretty OG as far as dota goes(I was playing when the Gambler was in the game, for reference). The thing is, the counter play for dota is to use BKB or another immunity spell, or have teammates disable enemy heroes in turn. There is a balance in terms of relative difficulty involved. FF place the entire burden on the person being forcefielded, it requires too little to use and too much to counter. The relative difficulty is out of balance. It's kind of like zergs in WoL telling terrans to always keep their vikings spread to avoid the instant fungals. Sure it's doable, but one side has it much easier. Thats how all counter play works. One side has to do something and then the other side responds. First the protoss has to throw down good forcefields and split up the army, then the other player has to respond. Or the protoss army gets surrounded by zerglings and the protoss player responds by pushing them back with forcefields. All micro is back and forth. And I'm saying it's too easy for one side. The difficulty involved is too lopsided.
I don't really feel that is true, but this is a subject a lot of people disagree on. I don't really think stutter stepping is huge challenge, but some people say its very hard with all the other stuff terran has to deal with and that sounds like it is likely true. Of course FF are easy to land when someone is charging up your ramp, but every spell is easy to land when someone is charging into you, from EMP to fungle.
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On February 06 2014 07:28 Meerel wrote:
prepare for shallow answers
yep.
was more than ready.
Just give it another 5 years
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Northern Ireland25648 Posts
On February 06 2014 11:27 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 11:21 Squat wrote:On February 06 2014 11:19 Plansix wrote:On February 06 2014 11:16 Squat wrote:On February 06 2014 11:11 Plansix wrote:On February 06 2014 11:09 Squat wrote:On February 06 2014 11:04 Whitewing wrote:On February 06 2014 10:46 Squat wrote:On February 06 2014 10:36 Whitewing wrote:
David does not get enough credit. For one thing, he's right 99% of the time when he gives these answers, but people all have their own agendas and biases and won't really consider what he says. Another is that he's right not to change design with patches, and obviously he can't comment on LOTV yet.
People get mad at him because they want something, unfortunately they're generally unwilling to consider that they are in fact wrong or off about what they want. Some people hate forcefields as a spell, problem is, as much as you might want to believe it, not everybody hates forcefields. I am perfectly capable of imagining that a protoss player is very fond of FF. It follows a concept that has been very prevalent with Blizzard for a while now; fun to use, not too difficult, and exceptionally frustrating to watch and play against. Except that there are things you can do about it. They made burrow move faster, moved burrow to hatch. Massive units crush them. Terrans lift forcefielded units all the time with medivacs. It's not that bad. The point is, complainers are very loud. It's not OP, it's just stupid and obnoxious. The fact that counter-moves exist does not make it less so. They are absurdly easy to use compared to the counters required to fight them. This is a common theme with protoss in general. If David feels they are a net positive for the game, so be it. I'm glad that I can at least know that it won't change. Almost every game with overhead control of units has stuns, roots, slows and other abilities that make it so you can't move. Dota 2 is filled with them and then people buy items that give them the ability to move their team mates out of harms way. Its good play and counter play. BW was filled with them as well. I agree, I'm pretty OG as far as dota goes(I was playing when the Gambler was in the game, for reference). The thing is, the counter play for dota is to use BKB or another immunity spell, or have teammates disable enemy heroes in turn. There is a balance in terms of relative difficulty involved. FF place the entire burden on the person being forcefielded, it requires too little to use and too much to counter. The relative difficulty is out of balance. It's kind of like zergs in WoL telling terrans to always keep their vikings spread to avoid the instant fungals. Sure it's doable, but one side has it much easier. Thats how all counter play works. One side has to do something and then the other side responds. First the protoss has to throw down good forcefields and split up the army, then the other player has to respond. Or the protoss army gets surrounded by zerglings and the protoss player responds by pushing them back with forcefields. All micro is back and forth. And I'm saying it's too easy for one side. The difficulty involved is too lopsided. I don't really feel that is true, but this is a subject a lot of people disagree on. I don't really think stutter stepping is huge challenge, but some people say its very hard with all the other stuff terran has to deal with and that sounds like it is likely true. Of course FF are easy to land when someone is charging up your ramp, but every spell is easy to land when someone is charging into you, from EMP to fungle.
How much Terran have you actually played?
I do regard stutter-stepping as pretty brainless really, splitting utilises your brain a bit more and I consider it something you do a bit more consciously. It does however add a hell of a lot of mechanical difficulty when you're having to do that every engagement and macro simultaneously.
Protoss you have to sit and think (not too long mind) about FF placement, storms etc, those are skills that people (especially Terran-only players) oft-devalue.
I dislike that those skills are less critical now in early/midgame defense because the MSC is such a frigging catch-all awesome defensive unit, but that's unlikely to change anytime soon and I can't have EVERYTHING the way I want it.
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I've loved Blizzard games since WCII back when I was a kid. I've always been loyal to Blizzard like so many others. SC1, D2 and WCIII were all amazing, ground breaking games. But truthfully, they really fucked up with SC2. D3 aside, they did not adequately think through that competing games would swallow up their player base. SC2, now that I've stopped playing but still watch, has objectively become repetitive, stale and seems unlikely to make it as an esport in the long-run. It's pretty saddening really... Blizzard became the complacent giant.. Just like Microsoft.
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First of all, not bad responses overall DK. But needs work in these areas:
Tanks are bad
We don't believe tanks suck. Tanks seem to be a lot more effective in TvZ since the last buff
- the last tank buff? You mean the attack speed buff that literally adds no DPS based on how fast engagements happen? okay bro. More like tanks are used more cause widow mines have been nerfed.
Zerg Anti-air
Late game mass Raven/BC turtling play is something we're watching for. If it becomes clear that it's an issue, we'll take steps to address it.
- what about late game zerg vs voidray deathball? Anti-air is important vs toss also even if you count out phoenixes.
Blink vs terran
The patch yesterday we believe should help. In case that's not enough, we will be testing other changes soon in the next balance test map.
- LOOOL what. How does this patch change anything for blink? you just made time warp cost 25 more - irrelevant since it needs to be just cast once on the ramp at any point.
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reading through some of these, I thought were interesting responses.
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Ugh. Reading this thread makes me sad (including DK's "answers.")
Definitely not expecting to buy LOTV. Do something cool Blizzard FFS.
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This makes me very sad. I don't know why I keep holding on thinking they will make the game slightly more like brood war. It's just not my cup of tea and never will be 
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On February 06 2014 11:19 Eliezar wrote:
Also, remember that Protoss was archon toilet vs Broodlord Infestor and on the short end vs Terran during much of Wings of Liberty and many of the fixes to those problems were done during the next expansion. For all we know David Kim already has a new Terran unit that addresses what we see as a weakness in Terran slated for the expansion and as such isn't super interested in making more than minor adjustments until then. Not saying that is the best way to do things, but its the easiest way to plan the game I'd think.
I hope that true I like getting new units if they didn't make new units then you might as well be playing bw not saying that bad either.  It true I get mad when a protoss warp like a bunch of zealots in the main with a warp prism what could of stop it would be maybe one or two turrent and warp gate units can get stomp if it's just warpgate units with just adding in some ghost. I play terran I enjoy playing the race and like you what you said about balance it hard to judge just like the nerf on wm when zerg was finding way around wm (ultralisks transitioning into broodlords late game) was very cool to watch, now you just see ling baneling into ultralisk infestor still interesting to watch though.
Also this is just an opinion on one of the possible reason why terran haven't been winning it could be because of the buff of mech and nerf of wm which I seen a lot more of mech lately and people trying to redefine bio (marine hellbat medvic) which i think it should be more like marine hellion medvic but I won't go to far in that topic for now.
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On February 06 2014 07:39 GuiBz wrote:
David Kim, try to make the game more skilled. The protoss macro is just too easy. They can spend their extra gas by wraping HTs and their extra minerals by wraping zealots. The terran player cannot spend his extra gas in late game.
If the Terran's aren't spending their extra gas, maybe they should not take as many geysers then? You see zerg's all the time pulling workers off gas to accrue minerals, or just having expansions that are purely for gas mining. Terran's are probably the least creative players right now, because they feel like everything is either already been figured out, or just aren't trying new things because it's been deemed "not good in this matchup". That has nothing to do with WarpGate at all.
Anyways, back on topic. Honestly, the selection of questions that were answered were pretty terrible, like this was all the community could come up with? There was little, to no thought put into the majority of these questions, so bitching about "empty answers" and shit like that is just ridiculous. This guy can't win no matter what he does. I actually thought his responses were well thought out, and showed insight into what they are actually thinking, and made logical sense when you actually thought about it from his (balance team) position. I have probably been one of the most vocal and unrelenting bashers of the Swarm Host and lategame PvZ, but after reading his answer to one of the questions, I actually understand where they are coming from. I actually really like the non-stop action they create during the game, and the genius multi-pronged attacks and harrassment some of the players pull off in some of these games. The only problem is, while the non-stop action is nice and all, when it is against "Free Units" that constantly spawn automatically, you can't help but feel it's just an "empty" fight with no risk involved. Another problem I have is they don't really do anything to raise the skill-ceiling of the game, for instance, having the units spawn automatically, sorounded by static defense that you don't control, while rallying them across the map while they attack with being commanded takes absolutely no skill to pull off. That's a major problem imo, and that's ignoring the resource advantage they create in the lategame. But honestly, just a little tweaking of the unit would make it much better in general, because right now players just mass swarm host, get some vipers,static defense, and corruptors and just sit back and wait for the Protoss to give up or attack into your massive defense and die.
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Didn't know Blizzard would take this move.
It's a good thing I guess.
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On February 06 2014 12:30 Beef Noodles wrote:This makes me very sad. I don't know why I keep holding on thinking they will make the game slightly more like brood war. It's just not my cup of tea and never will be
They already made Brood War, so making it again doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Making sc2 more like Brood War would include: recreating the shitty and retarded unit AI, recreating the horrible and retarded unit pathing, going back to 1 structure selection hotkeys, completely destroying the balance of the game because Brood War was not balanced; there were just completely lopsided maps that gave the illusion of balance, and many other things that I'm not going to go into.
I understand people like Brood War, but honestly Brood War is still around so go play it. There has also been many custom maps that have recreated Brood War in the sc2 engine, along with modifications of BW and some aspects of SC2 like Starbow. There are things out there to play if you want to play it. But don't keep bitching that they didn't just update BroodWar's graphics and say it was a new game.
I'd much rather them just keep trying to improve the game we have, because I and a lot of other people have a shit ton of fun playing it. Just looking at the improvement from WoL to HotS in terms of skill ceiling and overall enjoyment level of the game, it's a big improvement. But the infinite skill-ceiling BroodWar possessed was partly due to the major faults in the game design, and some of the more frustrating things like the unit pathings, retarded AI, limited unit selection, non auto-split on workers, non auto mine on workers, and so on. These things were put in the game to cater more towards the casual player, and it's a good thing imo. It's still incredibly hard to become a top level player in sc2, but there's people who couldn't even dream of ever competing in BroodWar. And that game was almost a decade old by the time people really figured it out and it was being played at the highest level. HotS has been out less than a year(sort of) and WoL only a couple years longer than that although it doesn't really count because of the new units/patches. There's still so much to be figured out in this game I can't even imagine what the pro matches are going to be like in 2-3 years down the line even.
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Northern Ireland25648 Posts
You can't say there aren't the questions there. Maybe in that thread, but there have been a lot of things thrown in that at least merit some response or actual detail. The likes of Lalush's air micro thread. I'm not even talking about implementing it, it's just clear a fair amount of considered thought went into those kind of things, and they get dismissed a bit out-of-hand for my taste.
That said I find the constant David Kim bashing unedifying, he's one guy, we literally don't even know what resources are being allocated to the SC2 side of things when it comes to patching and continuing to work on the thing.
Anyway, yeah I'll stop my continuous whining. Don't enjoy the game anymore, don't see it changing anytime so will play SBow, maybe some of the old games from my childhood. Maybe quit gaming altogether as I really don't get the fun out of it as I did as a youngster. Plenty of people enjoy the game of SC2, so to continually bitch about it is unfair to them when some of them just want to discuss a game that they like.
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I guess I just don't understand how DK thinks seeing oracles almost every time in PvT isn't an indication that they went too far with the buff...
Like, sure, people can defend it, but when it's in such a huge number of games even when it's often defended well, doesn't that maybe tip you off that you overbuffed even just a little bit?
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DK just has a completely different mindset for the game's future. A far more shittier and more death-bally future. I lost complete faith in blizz when they ruined SC2 with that queen patch.
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On February 06 2014 14:07 TimENT wrote:
DK just has a completely different mindset for the game's future. A far more shittier and more death-bally future. I lost complete faith in blizz when they ruined SC2 with that queen patch.
BL-infestor was already a problem before the queen patch. Every matchup besides maybe pre-queen patch TvZ was worse in WoL.
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EPT
