| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
murphs
Ireland417 Posts
On February 06 2014 08:43 Firkraag8 wrote:silent majority for damn sure. Oh ye? If that is the case I think most people will change their minds when these disastrous mechanics and their implications are properly explained to them. Not a week has gone by since 2010 where a thread hasn't been made about this shit. | ||
|
Snusmumriken
Sweden1717 Posts
On February 06 2014 09:40 Wombat_NI wrote: Fuck this, warpgate 'makes Protoss feel unique' as if Protoss didn't feel unique in Brood War. It's a copout answer, and tells me the mechanic will NEVER be looked at. the problem with warpgates for me isnt so much warpgates themselves, I think its a cool feature, its the fact that having them as pretty much immediate access limits the game in so many ways. a) removes defenders advantage = gateway units have to be somewhat weak b) thus protoss cant defend against zerg without either 1) ball of units or 2) forcefields = must have ramps to natural with small chokes and in general limits map making significantly. :/ | ||
|
emythrel
United Kingdom2599 Posts
| ||
|
SCST
Mexico1609 Posts
Always the same answers from David Kim and developers. Forefields? "Nothing wrong" Warpgate? "Fine" Deathball? "We like it" Decisive 200/200 battles? "It's your imagination" Year after year after year . . . I don't understand why people even attempt to ask questions anymore. These guys (developers) are going to do what they're going to do regardless of feedback. It could be the President of a country telling them there's something wrong and the answer would be: "nothing to see here Mr. President . . . you're clearly delusional if you think this game could use a change". | ||
|
MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On February 06 2014 09:58 SCST wrote: Always the same questions that almost 100% of the community and players agree on. Always the same answers from David Kim and developers. Forefields? "Nothing wrong" Warpgate? "Fine" Deathball? "We like it" Decisive 200/200 battles? "It's your imagination" Year after year after year . . . I don't understand why people even attempt to ask questions anymore. These guys (developers) are going to do what they're going to do regardless of feedback. It could be the President of a country telling them there's something wrong and the answer would be: "nothing to see here Mr. President . . . you're delusional if you think this game use a change". Lets not exaggerate what the entire community feels or wants. Just because the loudest members of the community think that forcefields and warpgate are unsolvable problems doesn't mean the rest of us do. I personally couldn't care less about this whole redesign protoss thing. | ||
|
illidanx
United States973 Posts
On February 06 2014 09:56 emythrel wrote: lots of repeat questions and answers pasted in to OP, got quite annoying actually. That's good for me. The OP did an awesome job summarizing the questions and the answers. | ||
|
AnonymousSC2
United States189 Posts
| ||
Falling
Canada11349 Posts
On February 06 2014 09:24 Baarn wrote: Hiring patrick would be a step in the right direction but he signed with a another company last month. He's designed a string of amazing games. Well thing is I don't even know that he would be interested in designing RTS games as he hasn't seemed to do anything of the sort for over a decade. I was just expressing caution in the idea that Pardo would be the magic bullet. | ||
|
Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
On February 06 2014 10:04 illidanx wrote: That's good for me. The OP did an awesome job summarizing the questions and the answers. Dude, the new ghosts will totally make mech the go to build in TvP. | ||
|
Nebuchad
Switzerland12162 Posts
On February 06 2014 09:58 SCST wrote: Always the same questions that almost 100% of the community and players agree on. Rofl. | ||
|
Aveng3r
United States2411 Posts
I think we all understand that this is bullshit | ||
|
Jerom
Netherlands588 Posts
| ||
|
DarkPlasmaBall
United States44255 Posts
 | ||
|
aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
On February 06 2014 08:55 Destructicon wrote: One big flaw they seem to continue to ignore though, is the problem with armies dying to quickly and deathballing still. Starbow devs realized early that the 40% attack speed nerf would be needed to offset the speed of fastest setting from Blizzard. However, even if that was fixed I'm not sure it would fix Deathballing, its just that some units are way to efficient in a ball or once they reach critical mass. Hmm, thanks. I did not realise that. If DK does another AMA, I shall ask if they have considered or will consider testing an across the board reduction in the attack speed. I don't know if that would "fix" anything (the honest response to many of these design/balance suggestions is "I don't know" as seeing the real effect of a change to the game is often unknown and often takes time). But it would certainly be interesting and worth looking at. On February 06 2014 08:58 Ammanas wrote: Yes, indeed that's what we see in HotS. The important thing you mention - the more bases players take, the more opportunities for harass and multiple engagements we see. What I believe is, that if the economy would be changed in that way, it would kinda 'force' players to expand sooner which would mean those opportunities would come faster. Another thing I firmly believe is that currently if there is a turtling player (avilo style terran mech, most commonly), there is very little opportunity for the opposing player to attack into him, so they just go for turtle mode themselves. Change of economy flow could open more opportunities for them to actually attack and trade (because even unfavourable trades would be good enough if you have more economy while still having same army supply). Last thing I wanna mention (not at all related to economy, just a little tidbit ^^), I personally would MUCH rather see a recall ability on oracle (teleport units towards the oracle, maybe limited by supply ala drops?) instead of the doom deathray we have now. Would be much cooler imo. Those opportunities are still there, I think, but constrained by map design (close proximity of main, natural and third) and map size. The economy also works against it as you can build a quality army off of two bases. But, overall, I am still unsure if the SC2 economy really needs a radical rework. After all, the notion of a standard 3 base meta in SC2 would have seemed foolish in 2011, but in 2013 it is the norm. In 2015 will 4 and 5 base be the meta with even more action than we currently see at the highest level of play? I don't discount the possibility. Personally, I'm willing to work with what we have and if there is a serious problem to approach it in different ways - especially if radically reworking the economy has too many costs. You are right in that a hard core turtling player is hard to shift in SC2. But, the other response to this is to just take an economy advantage, no? And to just poke lightly and do incremental damage. Given good scouting, an equal player should generally be able to beat the turtler. After all, Avilo has never been a good player for all of his turtle-ing and meching. Furthermore, I don't have a problem in SC2 giving that opportunity to players. Some players like to play that way. It is a feature of SC2 I like, that generally you are able to cheese, all-in, turtle or play an active macro style, if you have the skill. As to the Oracle, I agree. Not so much Recall (as I think that would be OP and also limit Protoss toward SG especially if, as I imagine, Recall was removed from the MSC). But, I do dislike the C-click pulsar beam and the Oracle's role as a "harass unit". | ||
|
Darkdwarf
Sweden960 Posts
I agree with him on force fields completely. Force Fields and Blink are the two biggest things that drew me into the game from the very beginning. If the community surrounding the game thinks FFs are too good, then design more open maps. Warp gates on the other hand, I agree with him on partially. I really understand the PoV that they complete the assymmetry of production, which is a central feature making SC2 unique when it comes to RTS games. Perhaps some tweak could be made to reduce their offensive capabilities, though, as has been suggested before. I don't really care either way, the protoss race is awesome to play with, against and to watch! Concerning the economy of the game, what I feel is to be done if we believe the game would benefit from a different economy - design maps where bases beyond the main yield less/more resources, with bases closer together/more spread out etc. Experiments with this has scarcely been done in maps used by pros. Overall, I think sc2 is a very well balanced and designed game. For those crying and crying, that will never ever be constructive. Voice structured concern and keep a civil discussion, and let the empirical data support you. Saying toss is imba after two months of "dominance" is dumb. Beside the topic, I call for more moderation here on TL. The starcraft section is barely visitable because of the shit storm of posts like these in this thread: + Show Spoiler + On February 06 2014 07:28 Meerel wrote: prepare for shallow answers On February 06 2014 07:39 GuiBz wrote: David Kim, try to make the game more skilled. The protoss macro is just too easy. They can spend their extra gas by wraping HTs and their extra minerals by wraping zealots. The terran player cannot spend his extra gas in late game. On February 06 2014 07:40 Stress wrote: Nobody is going to learn anything new from this. The balance/design team is just going to keep doing what they have been doing, questionable balance changes while avoiding the real problems. This is nothing more than a PR stunt because everyone on the b.net forums has been complaining about how Blizzard doesn't communicate enough with the community. + Show Spoiler + On February 06 2014 07:51 boxerfred wrote: He's currently picking the easy questions. Guess he'll continue to do so, but I hope we get some high value information somehow On February 06 2014 07:58 Val_ wrote: blah blah blah blah. nothing interesting. Sorry if that sounds offensive he is not touching controversial subjects. Just blah blah like any manager do. On February 06 2014 08:01 boxerfred wrote: Pretty much what the lastest two pre-posters said. David Kim is wondering why he receives so much hate out of the community - well, kinda because he's either doing crap (wtf, Hydra 25 gas?), or talking sweet nothings. + Show Spoiler + On February 06 2014 08:08 boxerfred wrote: What a HUGE disappointment by mr. Kim. "LOL let's pretend we care because 8 pages of questions resemble the community's will" On February 06 2014 08:10 Meerel wrote: well i dont really see sc2 going anywhere with this guy beeing in charge. ~~ On February 06 2014 08:14 Val_ wrote: Blizz Balance Team = Two managers randomly met in the smoking room. "Oh, we need to talk about balance in SCII!" - "Okay, lets do it next week" - So Dustin, how is your silver account? - Idk Kim. I was playing Heroes of Storm last month. Im lead game designer, you know. - Oh..ok. Did you watch MLG? - Sure I did! I watched 1 zvz! seems like no imbalances in ZvZ! - kk thats what im thinking about. Im too bored to watch it too. Ok, i have a meeting now, cya next month! On February 06 2014 08:24 murphs wrote: He really is useless. Absolutely no desire to address the fundamental issues. He likes forcefields and warp gate, no bright future for this game. + Show Spoiler + On February 06 2014 08:31 ShivaN wrote: I just can't believe this guy came from a BW player background... All these fundamental design flaws he either won't admit to, or are just too entrenched in the current game for any hope of them being altered is really depressing. On February 06 2014 08:31 Squat wrote: I find his answers incoherent and often disconnected from the question. It's difficult to discern what he actually thinks because his way of communicating is so confusing and opaque. On February 06 2014 08:33 Rainmansc wrote: I love how in PvZ the first 15 mins P has like 20 all ins and zerg has none these days. Can we just have a queen spell that gives a spine 1500 HP and extra range so we can just make the games 20 mins no rush david kim? Should sound like music in your ears... I don't see a bright future for this game On February 06 2014 08:41 Spaylz wrote: Every time I read one of DK's answer, all I see is utter denial. His answers mostly consist of admitting a potential problem, as in: "we acknowledge that players think that, but we disagree and we don't see a problem ourselves". Based on his answers, it just seems to me that Blizzard has absolutely no intention of making any major changes. They don't see the problems that a solid portion of the community does, so there is nothing else to see or talk about. Over the past few months, the complaints about the 30 seconds fight and the death balls have been very consistent, but somehow Blizzard is blind to it. In the end, they make their game however they want, and it seems they don't really listen to anyone who is an outsider to Blizzard. If the next Q&A sessions are like this, we can be sure that LotV won't bring any meaningful changes to the game. + Show Spoiler + On February 06 2014 08:52 Pirfiktshon wrote: I can Live with Forcefields its Timewarp that is kind of a back breaker. Reason being is that it is a HUGE overlap of Forcefield mechanics. Its an Ability that can be casted from a decent range from a Flying unit that is 100/100. Even with the energy nerf I don't think this ability is in the best interest of hte game. It makes any and ALL defense / Offense builds 10x stronger for a unit that also has the capability to supercharge a Nexus to be a Super Cannon which is also a Mechanic overlap of photon cannons. Personally I would have liked to ask him why is there sooooooo much overlap in ALL of the Protoss design of units to the point then when you combine them together it gives protoss MASSIVE advantages that I predicted that would come into the play of MASSIVE imbalance that we are just starting to see the tip of the iceberg now LOL past 2 Major tourneys were PVP finals and Mostly populated with P players in the RO16 in both tourneys lol On February 06 2014 08:58 kasumimi wrote: As a veteran fan of both BW and SC2, this was a very disheartening read. Even though I don't have any expectations anymore, the reality check is always harsh reminder. ...especially the warpgate/ff comments... On February 06 2014 09:00 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: meh, nothing but safe and shallow answers here. On February 06 2014 09:17 BlackCompany wrote: Well normally its good if the developers/balancing team answer community questions but the answer so far basicly show everything. Hes using many words to say as little as possible. There wont be any usefull answeres, only "we keep an eye on that" or "maybe we will address this". Completly useless. Not that i blame him, because what else is he supposed to say? Oh but i had a good laugh about how he thinks the last patch fixes blink all-ins, thank god my ghosts come with full energy now to stop this. + Show Spoiler + On February 06 2014 09:30 Blargh1111 wrote: Man, I always get excited every time I see something like this, only to have my hopes and dreams crushed. David Kim even goes as far to say "The patch yesterday we believe should help. In case that's not enough, we will be testing other changes soon in the next balance test map." as if it affects blink allins in the slightest... I have news for you David, the game will be dead before LoTV if you keep it up like this, I sure as hell won't be playing then. EndRant, back to a more balanced, overall better version of sc2, Starbow. On February 06 2014 09:43 Squat wrote: But it's like a different thing! That means it's good...right? I mean, if we give Ultralisks a Haduken punch that launches enemy units into the air as a form of AA that would be really fucking unique too! This certainly would make the game better, it would make zerg really stand out. TL;DR: Balance whine, personal attacks and ded gaem shitposts. | ||
|
Jarvs
Australia639 Posts
| ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
People get mad at him because they want something, unfortunately they're generally unwilling to consider that they are in fact wrong or off about what they want. Some people hate forcefields as a spell, problem is, as much as you might want to believe it, not everybody hates forcefields. | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland25092 Posts
Very few of those posts were at all beyond the pale or bashing, most were strongly-worded accepted, but reasonably expressed opinions. Why do people 'cry and cry'. Because it's the only way things ever seem to get done. Look at the Carrier change/keeping it in HoTS, it was essentially pointless but was borne out of people complaining that it was being removed. It didn't fix the issues that prevented Carriers being more common, make them much more microable, but was a reaction to people nonsensically whining. They didn't even implement everything in Nony's video that they themselves said was illuminating. Blizzard have long since ceased to actually address considered, well-thought out content and do anything beyond a 'we'll take a look at it'. They DO on the other hand respond to constant complaining, so may as well just do that. That or go and play Starbow or whatever, which I'm quite enjoying atm despite my incompetence at it. | ||
|
Noocta
France12578 Posts
| ||
|
Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
You are right in that a hard core turtling player is hard to shift in SC2. But, the other response to this is to just take an economy advantage, no? And to just poke lightly and do incremental damage. Given good scouting, an equal player should generally be able to beat the turtler. After all, Avilo has never been a good player for all of his turtle-ing and meching. It's not, and that is pretty much the crux of the entire problem. Out-expanding a turtling opponent simply is not rewarded enough. It does not provide a meaningful increase in mineral income past the third base, and not much in gas past the fourth. Blizzard basically imported the concept of relative maxed army strength directly from BW into Sc2, which is why we see so many of these stupid SH turtle games. It works fine in a game where you can take 7 bases and trade badly, but not disastrously so, and win through attrition. It does not work in a game where you cap income on 4 bases and any trade will likely be a one-sided massacre. This is why ZvP is such a pile of shit, and will likely become worse as we go. | ||
| ||
StarCraft 2 StarCraft: Brood War Britney Dota 2  42046Sea  3319Larva  1979EffOrt 1814firebathero 1325Stork 749Mini 446Light 363Snow 362Zeus 216[ Show more ] Counter-Strike Other Games hiko1523 B2W.Neo1449 Lowko472 DeMusliM415 Fuzer  257KnowMe62 QueenE59 Mew2King53 Trikslyr31 Pyrionflax20 Organizations Other Games StarCraft: Brood War StarCraft 2 StarCraft: Brood War |
|
WardiTV European League
Fjant vs Babymarine
Mixu vs HiGhDrA
Gerald vs ArT
goblin vs MaNa
Jumy vs YoungYakov
Replay Cast
OSC
Epic.LAN
CranKy Ducklings
Epic.LAN
CSO Contender
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
Sparkling Tuna Cup
Online Event
[ Show More ] |
|
|
EPT
