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David Kim answers Balance Questions on Battle.net forums -…

Forum Index > SC2 General
759 CommentsPost a Reply
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Pandain
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States12989 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-06 00:17:27
February 06 2014 00:15 GMT
#121
On February 06 2014 09:14 Ayaz2810 wrote:
Why are a lot of the questions asked multiple times? It keeps confusing me


I organized it by topic and some overlap.

There is another compilation by date if you like it.
http://www.blizzposts.com/topic/en/239192/qa-with-david-kim-february-5-2014
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
February 06 2014 00:16 GMT
#122
On February 06 2014 09:15 Aveng3r wrote:
I dont know how I feel about any of these answers.

for once, I respect some of the protoss design choices. Warpgate being a race-specific unit build mechanic actually makes sense, although I still dont think its particularly fair.

I really dont like what they have to say about tvp. One race has a seemingly infinite arsenal of early game cheeses, the other race has none. The discussion should stop right there- it is simply not fair.

If I understood correctly, the "newest patch should address blink allin tvp concerns". What fucking change are they talking about exactly?


There's less time warp available
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
Squat
Profile Joined September 2013
Sweden7978 Posts
February 06 2014 00:17 GMT
#123
On February 06 2014 08:52 Plansix wrote:
If they re balance the economy, we might be back to square one with everyone stuck on two bases and going two base all ins. Its not like they can just say "And now there are 5 mineral patches and everything is beautiful". People will always gravitate towards ending the game early and will only stop when trying to do so becomes to risky.

I don't think that inconvenience is a good argument against positive change. Of course a change as drastic as altering the economy would bring a period of instability. Brood war was a huge change compared to vanilla SC, yet it was for the better.

WoL was completely broken on release, yet it was a necessary iterative process. Complacency and settling for mediocrity is not something I consider appropriate for the sequel to the greatest RTS ever made. If hard changes have to be made, make them. If jimmies have to be rustled, rustle them.
"Digital. They have digital. What is digital?" - Donald J Trump
BlackCompany
Profile Joined August 2012
Germany8388 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-06 00:18:46
February 06 2014 00:17 GMT
#124
Well normally its good if the developers/balancing team answer community questions but the answer so far basicly show everything. Hes using many words to say as little as possible. There wont be any usefull answeres, only "we keep an eye on that" or "maybe we will address this". Completly useless. Not that i blame him, because what else is he supposed to say?


Oh but i had a good laugh about how he thinks the last patch fixes blink all-ins, thank god my ghosts come with full energy now to stop this.
Bagi
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6799 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-06 00:21:38
February 06 2014 00:20 GMT
#125
If warpgate and force fields are staying, the least they can do is axe the colossus and replace it with a more dynamic unit with LOTV. Protoss needs a higher skill floor and a higher skill ceiling, and if gateway units can't be altered too much then it should be the robo units that break the deathball.

Immortal isn't much better, another unmicroable unit that counters certain things way too strong. Heavy redesigns to robo tech and factory tech is what LOTV should focus on with protoss and terran.
TurboMaN
Profile Joined October 2005
Germany925 Posts
February 06 2014 00:21 GMT
#126
I hope everything gets better with LotV.
TvP is still the most frustrating matchup and every win feels 100x better than the ones in other matchups..
Pandain
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States12989 Posts
February 06 2014 00:23 GMT
#127
On February 06 2014 08:20 Squat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 06 2014 08:16 Pandain wrote:
On February 06 2014 08:15 Squat wrote:
On February 06 2014 08:12 Firkraag8 wrote:
On February 06 2014 08:08 Squat wrote:
On February 06 2014 08:03 ElMeanYo wrote:
On February 06 2014 07:58 Squat wrote:
That man sure knows how to use a lot words without actually saying anything. He should go into politics.


Because if you actually go into any specifics when talking to the community, you get burned later.

That's what he's paid for. If you don't like the heat, get out of the fucking kitchen. If you are a lead designer on a game like SC2, you have to be ready to catch some flak.

At least give us the basic respect of being honest, if your answer is "no we like everything about the game the way it is and will never change forcefields and symmetrical economies and all the other shit people have be berating us about since WoL beta", then fine. At least then we'll know and those who feel that it's a deal breaker can go play Dota or cricket or something instead. I disagree with him on just about every single design decision about the game, but all that is subjective bullshit anyway, there is no right or wrong. Just have enough spine to represent what you actually want for the game.



You mean like this?:

"We feel Warp Gates are very race defining for Protoss. It's a completely different way to produce units. Because we want every race to feel unique and asymmetric, we like the design of Warp Gates."

If every answer had been like that, I would have no issue. But please don't try and tell me there isn't at least as much evasive bullshit as straight answers in this little interview. I'd disagree with him on pretty much everything, but that's ok.

I really don't think he's as evasive as you think.
Or at all.

What did you want him to say.

Answer the "why" in the deathball question, not the how. Questions about the oracle, raven, swarm host. "we're keeping an eye on things" isn't very reassuring given their track record.

Also, I don't mean this as an insult, but is english David's first language? I've seen this in the past as well, he seems to have trouble understanding what is actually being asked and his answers are often tangentially connected to the question at best. It's like watching two people talking past each other.


I think he says that deathballs aren't that major to fix as long as constant action occurs throughout the game.

Take that as you will...
Baarn
Profile Joined April 2010
United States2702 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-06 00:29:12
February 06 2014 00:24 GMT
#128
On February 06 2014 09:12 Falling wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 06 2014 08:36 CutTheEnemy wrote:
StarCraft is dead unless Rob Pardo steps in. It's just a mess right now, isn't it? All this balance stuff, it isn't even about balance, is it? It's mostly about design tweaks to make the game more enjoyable. That's the complaint. Its like a fighting game where the characters are roughly equally strong, but none are fun enough, and they're addressing it with balance patches.

I think the community needs to be serious about asking Blizzard to put Pardo in charge of the next expansion. For those who read this, consider mentioning Pardo more often in threads. He led the design on broodwar, remember.

I don't know Pardo so much. Led design on BW, but I believe it was Patrick Wyatt and Bob Fitch that led the development of Starcraft itself. I haven't heard Pardo talk about BW development so much, but from asking questions of Wyatt and reading his blog, I at least know he is intimately aware of the different emergent behaviours that developed from Starcraft and seems to appreciate the competitive and extra strategic elements they added.


Hiring patrick would be a step in the right direction but he signed with a another company last month. He's designed a string of amazing games.

On topic: I don't play sc2 hots at all cause my initial impressions just didn't make it seem like it was fun at all. I was presented with overlapping unit roles along with WoL style gameplay. That didn't and still doesn't appeal to me on any level. They do a good job with balance though I'll give them that but when core mechanics suck it doesn't make up for balance. If it were up to me I rather have an unbalanced game that is fun to play.
There's no S in KT. :P
Parcelleus
Profile Joined January 2011
Australia1662 Posts
February 06 2014 00:25 GMT
#129
Keep up the good work DK, your ability to see through the whiners and nubs posts impresses me.

It funny how races that had it 'good' all of sudden cry hard when their race is brought back into check. DK doesnt fall for this crying, he keeps to his system, this is impressive in my book.

Thankyou DK !
*burp*
Drake
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany6146 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-06 00:31:06
February 06 2014 00:27 GMT
#130
david kim seems being sad about this warpgate and ff whines and i can understand, they such a fundermental thing of sc2, its not bw 2.0 xD
at .least 60% of the questions are bs qq whine with nearly no reason to even ask because the question itself is stupid²

but hey BNET FORUM right ? xD

On February 06 2014 09:20 Bagi wrote:
If warpgate and force fields are staying, the least they can do is axe the colossus and replace it with a more dynamic unit with LOTV. Protoss needs a higher skill floor and a higher skill ceiling, and if gateway units can't be altered too much then it should be the robo units that break the deathball.

Immortal isn't much better, another unmicroable unit that counters certain things way too strong. Heavy redesigns to robo tech and factory tech is what LOTV should focus on with protoss and terran.


no man, colossi are cool, where on earth you guys play ? where you still have problems with deathballs wtf guys
unmicroable immortel ???

wtf why i am even anger myself reading comments ...
Nb.Drake / CoL_Drake / Original Joined TL.net Tuesday, 15th of March 2005
Blargh1111
Profile Joined March 2013
8 Posts
February 06 2014 00:30 GMT
#131
Man, I always get excited every time I see something like this, only to have my hopes and dreams crushed. David Kim even goes as far to say "The patch yesterday we believe should help. In case that's not enough, we will be testing other changes soon in the next balance test map." as if it affects blink allins in the slightest...
I have news for you David, the game will be dead before LoTV if you keep it up like this, I sure as hell won't be playing then.

EndRant, back to a more balanced, overall better version of sc2, Starbow.
sagefreke
Profile Joined August 2010
United States241 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-06 00:33:17
February 06 2014 00:31 GMT
#132
"In PvZ, we don't currently think Phoenix openers are problematic. It is a very core opener for Protoss, but doesn't cause major problems. Late game mass Raven/BC turtling play is something we're watching for. If it becomes clear that it's an issue, we'll take steps to address it."


What's to watch? People have been doing Skytoss and Skyterran for months now.

Also early game anti air isn't really the issue with Skytoss or Skyterran. It's the LATE GAME anti-air everyone is worried about. The whole "if he gets that composition you lost the game" thing is really dumb to me. I'm not saying my 200/200 army should beat their 200/200 army, but it sure as hell shouldn't completely melt my maxed AA army 3 or 4 times over without putting a dent in his.

Out of all the questions he answered, this was by far the worst answer.
yo yo yo
Drake
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany6146 Posts
February 06 2014 00:32 GMT
#133
On February 06 2014 09:31 sagefreke wrote:
"In PvZ, we don't currently think Phoenix openers are problematic. It is a very core opener for Protoss, but doesn't cause major problems. Late game mass Raven/BC turtling play is something we're watching for. If it becomes clear that it's an issue, we'll take steps to address it."


What's to watch? People have been doing Skytoss and Skyterran for months now.

Also early game anti air isn't really the issue with Skytoss or Skyterran. It's the LATE GAME anti-air everyone is worried about. Toss might not be able to turtle as hard as Terran does when going air, but the whole "if he gets that composition you lost the game" thing is really dumb to me. I'm not saying my 200/200 army should beat their 200/200 army, but it sure as hell shouldn't completely melt my maxed AA army 3 or 4 times over.

Out of all the questions he answered, this was by far the worst answer.


in 99,9% oif the games the terran has this endgame army, the enemy did so much huge major mistakes before, that the only reason they still ARE in the game is because the terran WANTED to go raven, and othrwise could have killed him 100 times,
telling me that you can build a raven lategame army np without the enemy just overrun you must be best joke of year ...
Nb.Drake / CoL_Drake / Original Joined TL.net Tuesday, 15th of March 2005
Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16117 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-06 00:33:50
February 06 2014 00:33 GMT
#134
On February 06 2014 09:27 Drake wrote:
david kim seems being sad about this warpgate and ff whines and i can understand, they such a fundermental thing of sc2, its not bw 2.0 xD


No one is asking to remove them, simply to change them so they aren't so damn prevalent to the point of detrimental reliance.

Because of Warp Gate and Forcefield, Gateway units are weaker than the low tech units of the other races, because of that weakness Protoss relies heavily on a single massive army much more so than the other races do.

This isn't an opinion, this is a fact.

If Warp Gate and Forcefield were scaled back, made less important, Gateway units could be buffed and the entirety of the race could be made more dynamic.

It's a widely held opinion that Protoss isn't an exciting race to watch, and definitely not fun to play against. That is why TvZ is held so high above any of the Protoss matches as the most exciting match up.

Just because it's different, just because it's unique doesn't mean it's a good thing to have.
aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
sagefreke
Profile Joined August 2010
United States241 Posts
February 06 2014 00:39 GMT
#135
On February 06 2014 09:32 Drake wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 06 2014 09:31 sagefreke wrote:
"In PvZ, we don't currently think Phoenix openers are problematic. It is a very core opener for Protoss, but doesn't cause major problems. Late game mass Raven/BC turtling play is something we're watching for. If it becomes clear that it's an issue, we'll take steps to address it."


What's to watch? People have been doing Skytoss and Skyterran for months now.

Also early game anti air isn't really the issue with Skytoss or Skyterran. It's the LATE GAME anti-air everyone is worried about. Toss might not be able to turtle as hard as Terran does when going air, but the whole "if he gets that composition you lost the game" thing is really dumb to me. I'm not saying my 200/200 army should beat their 200/200 army, but it sure as hell shouldn't completely melt my maxed AA army 3 or 4 times over.

Out of all the questions he answered, this was by far the worst answer.


in 99,9% oif the games the terran has this endgame army, the enemy did so much huge major mistakes before, that the only reason they still ARE in the game is because the terran WANTED to go raven, and othrwise could have killed him 100 times,
telling me that you can build a raven lategame army np without the enemy just overrun you must be best joke of year ...



Define major mistakes?

The games I've played and observed, Terran will open mech and transition into skyterran late game. You make it seem like Zerg just lets Terran start going air from the get go. It's not very easy to harass against turtle mech style.
yo yo yo
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
February 06 2014 00:40 GMT
#136
Fuck this, warpgate 'makes Protoss feel unique' as if Protoss didn't feel unique in Brood War. It's a copout answer, and tells me the mechanic will NEVER be looked at.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada17206 Posts
February 06 2014 00:41 GMT
#137
the CM guy closed things off by saying " this is something we want to do a lot more often. "

i wonder if they are aiming for David Kim to replace Dustin Browder now that Browder is a VP.

Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
Squat
Profile Joined September 2013
Sweden7978 Posts
February 06 2014 00:43 GMT
#138
But it's like a different thing! That means it's good...right? I mean, if we give Ultralisks a Haduken punch that launches enemy units into the air as a form of AA that would be really fucking unique too! This certainly would make the game better, it would make zerg really stand out.
"Digital. They have digital. What is digital?" - Donald J Trump
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
February 06 2014 00:44 GMT
#139
In an era of huge maps, the missing of one godamn proxy pylon becomes more and more annoying for me as time goes by :p
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Foudzing
Profile Joined December 2011
France181 Posts
February 06 2014 00:45 GMT
#140
I have the impression that the most relevant quesitons (about Pvt Oracles and SH) are not answered.
Bomber and MKP Forever <3 | Dayshi | Maru | Feast | Symbol | ForGG | Bly | Dream Millenium Fighting!
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