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On February 06 2014 14:11 Cheren wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 14:07 TimENT wrote:
DK just has a completely different mindset for the game's future. A far more shittier and more death-bally future. I lost complete faith in blizz when they ruined SC2 with that queen patch. BL-infestor was already a problem before the queen patch. Every matchup besides maybe pre-queen patch TvZ was worse in WoL.
Yeah...no. Pre-queen patch TvZ was incredible back then. TvT was incredible back then (still equally as good). TvP was good back then because T could actually threaten P before the 2000 minute mark. PvP ended before 10 minutes (thank god, all P matchups blow). PvZ sucked and always will suck.
MAINLY...ZvZ was fucking intense. Baneling wars were fun. This massing bullshit I see now is just awful. Sigh. Blizz you really killed this game. So much potential.
I'll always remember you, 2011 SC2.
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On February 06 2014 14:15 TimENT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 14:11 Cheren wrote:On February 06 2014 14:07 TimENT wrote:
DK just has a completely different mindset for the game's future. A far more shittier and more death-bally future. I lost complete faith in blizz when they ruined SC2 with that queen patch. BL-infestor was already a problem before the queen patch. Every matchup besides maybe pre-queen patch TvZ was worse in WoL. Yeah...no. Pre-queen patch TvZ was incredible back then. TvT was incredible back then (still equally as good). TvP was good back then because T could actually threaten P before the 2000 minute mark. PvP ended before 10 minutes (thank god, all P matchups blow). PvZ sucked and always will suck. MAINLY...ZvZ was fucking intense. Baneling wars were fun. This massing bullshit I see now is just awful. Sigh. Blizz you really killed this game. So much potential. I'll always remember you, 2011 SC2.
2011 SC2 would have turned into 2012 SC2 queen patch or no. Only exception is TvZ which is good in HotS anyway.
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Basically the fact that they see the current state as satisfactory is the biggest problem. We have been going downhill pretty much since the inception of sc2, that they continue to ignore arguments that justify this is incredible.
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On February 06 2014 14:25 Cheren wrote:
2011 SC2 would have turned into 2012 SC2 queen patch or no.
Not really.
About Kim: I am extremely disappointed by his stance and answers. Reading this Q&A convinced me that SC2 will only keep on going downhill. Not only they're not interested in the slightest to make the game as appealing to viewers and players (complete disregard for BW, destroying SC2 in 2011), they're in this mindset of 'oh well it will eventually fix itself, and if it doesn't we'll try something at LotV'.
Unbelievable.
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When I think Magic R&D is pretty remote and bad regarding Feedback I return to see this pile of garbage. Reading the first question and answer is...well...he didn't answer the question at all and reiterated an 'everything is fine' and ignorance of BW that is laughable (I guess he thinks BW was mass into 200/200 and one fight to end the game? LOL). Way to go DK.
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On February 06 2014 14:38 Aveng3r wrote:
Basically the fact that they see the current state as satisfactory is the biggest problem. We have been going downhill pretty much since the inception of sc2, that they continue to ignore arguments that justify this is incredible.
Pretty much this. Disregard of the huge amount of whining from several sources, it is visible that a great amount of players feels like the game is wrong concept wise. Unfortunately everybody (including myself) is stupid and blindly love the game and Blizzard, keeping faith that someday it will become the game we expect. Definitely won't happen.
DK justifying why they keep the game so different from BW reminds me on Jay Wilson on D3, and how he stubbornly kept the game distant to D2 and ended up with a shit game...
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On February 06 2014 14:38 Aveng3r wrote:
Basically the fact that they see the current state as satisfactory is the biggest problem. We have been going downhill pretty much since the inception of sc2, that they continue to ignore arguments that justify this is incredible.
Not really. There's not a single previous patch that would result in more balanced winrates if it were played today.
take that back, the pre-widow mine nerf, combined mech upgrades, oracle buff patch was probably better.
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United States7483 Posts
On February 06 2014 14:15 TimENT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 14:11 Cheren wrote:On February 06 2014 14:07 TimENT wrote:
DK just has a completely different mindset for the game's future. A far more shittier and more death-bally future. I lost complete faith in blizz when they ruined SC2 with that queen patch. BL-infestor was already a problem before the queen patch. Every matchup besides maybe pre-queen patch TvZ was worse in WoL. Yeah...no. Pre-queen patch TvZ was incredible back then. TvT was incredible back then (still equally as good). TvP was good back then because T could actually threaten P before the 2000 minute mark. PvP ended before 10 minutes (thank god, all P matchups blow). PvZ sucked and always will suck. MAINLY...ZvZ was fucking intense. Baneling wars were fun. This massing bullshit I see now is just awful. Sigh. Blizz you really killed this game. So much potential. I'll always remember you, 2011 SC2.
I think nostalgia is speaking.
Pre queen patch most TvZs were hellions killing zerg or zerg holding hellions handedly and winning from there. The games where it wasn't that, it was terran going hellion into 3 CC with no threat at all and zerg falling behind then dying later. Broodlord infestor wasn't an issue because zerg couldn't get there most of the time: midgame centric plays like ling/bling/muta were common. The matchup wasn't that great, hellions were way too good. The queen patch made zerg too strong defensively, so then they could rush 3 bases then straight to broodlord/infestor with only a short midgame, which accentuated the problem.
TvP wasn't all that good back then either: terran was the only one that could be aggressive at all (apart from some minor all-ins from toss), so toss sat back defending until they were finally allowed to move out around 15:00. From that point on, terran just died unless they could hold on to the super late game, with mass CC's, mass ghost/medivac/viking, because tempests didn't exist so toss had no way to pick away at terran from there. So that matchup quickly became a lot of turtling and massing to deathball. Parting made it fresh for a while until players figured out how to deal with storm flanks.
PvP sucked ass then, it's much better now. PvZ sucked ass then, it's much better now. ZvT sucked ass then, it's much better now.
So yeah, I get it, you don't like protoss, but guess what: others do.
Every single matchup in the game is better now then it was in WoL.
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On February 06 2014 07:20 Pandain wrote:
Do you believe that the swarm host is proving to be used in the way that you wanted it to when you designed the unit for HotS? Do you like the way the swarm host is currently being used by pros?
David Kim wrote:
The first question in our minds don't matter as much at this point.
What a completely ignorant and idiotic statement.
So you spent months designing something (intending Swarmhosts to give Zerg an aggressive option mid-game) and it is used exactly in the opposite way that you intended (allowing Zergs to turtle in the mid and late game) causing a major game play issue, and it "don't matter"?
It does matter. Your design failed. Miserably. Hold yourself accountable. Say you learned from the mistake. Don't dismiss it as a non-issue. And what about the problem of Zergs not having aggressive options mid game to finish off opponents? Does that not matter anymore now?
Don't you understand David? You set out to fix a problem, failed, and now say the problem doesn't matter? Well then why did you try to fix it in the first place!? By ignoring his question, you're basically saying saying the initial problem didn't exist and that you have no plans to fix it.
This sums up the design team perfectly. They simply have no idea what they are doing. They try to "fix" an issue, fail, and then forget about fixing said problem, because they realize the issue actually wasn't a problem in the first place. And we are left the the "results" (ie Swarmhost) which they then try to somehow fit into the game. And often the "results" overlap with existing units, ie Tempests. Remember Tempests solving the non-existent Muta problem in WOL? Yeah, me too. Now Tempests are just a replacement for the Carrier, performing nearly the same role (long range capital ship). Frankly, I'm not sure what is worse: Blizzard's inability to identify real problems with the game, or their inability to implement in the game what they had planned to implement.
Either way, it is really laughable how brain-dead that comment is. David, you really know how to spew the political bullshit. Too bad you aren't as good at designing units that actually perform the role you intend them to.
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United States7483 Posts
On February 06 2014 15:14 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 07:20 Pandain wrote:
Do you believe that the swarm host is proving to be used in the way that you wanted it to when you designed the unit for HotS? Do you like the way the swarm host is currently being used by pros? Show nested quote + David Kim wrote:
The first question in our minds don't matter as much at this point.
He means that the intent behind the unit design is irrelevant, it only matters how it is actually being used and whether that is a problem or not.
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"At first, right when we made the change we saw a lot of Oracle play, but that has toned down. We got some "Oracle OP" feedback from pro players up until the end of last year. However, when we put it like this, most seem to understand our stance a bit better:
Harassment options such as the Oracle harrass get weaker over time due to players learning how to defend better against them. Think back to when everyone was convinced that the Medivac speed boost was completely broken and OP. Almost no one says this now. Then look at Oracle usage right when that patch was released, look at how much they're used now, then how much less would it be 2 months from now even without nerfs. Another good example is Banshee cloak change in TvT: almost every TvT when the patch was made utilized it, but that's not the case now."
Although oracles are being defended better, I think it is also limiting terran builds since terrans HAVE to make sure they have 6 marines in their minerals unless until they scout the tech which means no early pressure. And I think protoss has figured out that blink can just put as much pressure as oracles and transitions easier so you see more blink builds compare to oracles.
As for medivacs, it was mainly the medivacs + hellbat drop that were hard to defend, so since hellbats were nerfed, so has the drop potential. Although drops can still do damage, they are much less devastating.
Yes, sometimes it is the meta shifting, but sometimes even when there are ways to defend the unit, the fact that a specific defense is required makes other builds more threatening.
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On February 06 2014 12:43 ArTiFaKs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 07:39 GuiBz wrote:
David Kim, try to make the game more skilled. The protoss macro is just too easy. They can spend their extra gas by wraping HTs and their extra minerals by wraping zealots. The terran player cannot spend his extra gas in late game. If the Terran's aren't spending their extra gas, maybe they should not take as many geysers then? You see zerg's all the time pulling workers off gas to accrue minerals, or just having expansions that are purely for gas mining. Terran's are probably the least creative players right now, because they feel like everything is either already been figured out, or just aren't trying new things because it's been deemed "not good in this matchup".
Are you serious? Not take all geysers in TvP? Do you play this game at all? What kind of TvP do you wanna play?
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lol i got really sad at his answers regarding force field and warpgates. He seem to insist that something is cool and should stay in the game when it seems like the general community playing the game are not enjoying them at all
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On February 06 2014 15:14 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 14:15 TimENT wrote:On February 06 2014 14:11 Cheren wrote:On February 06 2014 14:07 TimENT wrote:
DK just has a completely different mindset for the game's future. A far more shittier and more death-bally future. I lost complete faith in blizz when they ruined SC2 with that queen patch. BL-infestor was already a problem before the queen patch. Every matchup besides maybe pre-queen patch TvZ was worse in WoL. Yeah...no. Pre-queen patch TvZ was incredible back then. TvT was incredible back then (still equally as good). TvP was good back then because T could actually threaten P before the 2000 minute mark. PvP ended before 10 minutes (thank god, all P matchups blow). PvZ sucked and always will suck. MAINLY...ZvZ was fucking intense. Baneling wars were fun. This massing bullshit I see now is just awful. Sigh. Blizz you really killed this game. So much potential. I'll always remember you, 2011 SC2. I think nostalgia is speaking. Pre queen patch most TvZs were hellions killing zerg or zerg holding hellions handedly and winning from there. The games where it wasn't that, it was terran going hellion into 3 CC with no threat at all and zerg falling behind then dying later. Broodlord infestor wasn't an issue because zerg couldn't get there most of the time: midgame centric plays like ling/bling/muta were common. The matchup wasn't that great, hellions were way too good. The queen patch made zerg too strong defensively, so then they could rush 3 bases then straight to broodlord/infestor with only a short midgame, which accentuated the problem. TvP wasn't all that good back then either: terran was the only one that could be aggressive at all (apart from some minor all-ins from toss), so toss sat back defending until they were finally allowed to move out around 15:00. From that point on, terran just died unless they could hold on to the super late game, with mass CC's, mass ghost/medivac/viking, because tempests didn't exist so toss had no way to pick away at terran from there. So that matchup quickly became a lot of turtling and massing to deathball. Parting made it fresh for a while until players figured out how to deal with storm flanks. PvP sucked ass then, it's much better now. PvZ sucked ass then, it's much better now. ZvT sucked ass then, it's much better now. So yeah, I get it, you don't like protoss, but guess what: others do. Every single matchup in the game is better now then it was in WoL.
I don't agree with your TvP analysis. In WoL, the early game had P applying pressure or all-in that weren't minor (immortal busts, blink all-in, zealot archon busts) and T dominated mid game once medivacs and stim was out until Protoss got enough AoEs were out and they dominated late game, until super late with mass CCs.
With TvP now, Protoss have the early/ early mid game with pressures/all-ins and whether transitioned smoothly, the mid game window for T is almost none existent before AoE is out.
So while WoL TvP had different power spikes for both T and P, Ts only get a minor power spike now.
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Thank you Daivd Kim for addressing the issue that, like the medivac buff in HoTs, Oracle's have the same buff type, this will keep some terran/zerg whiners off
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I love how david kim compared the tactical ability forcefields to the strategical choice dark templars. That was a good one.
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Sad that I missed this. I would've really liked to see him adress the TvP early game and how there's so few options for terrans until ~10 minutes, when protoss has a gazillion of builds. While I believe it to be balanced, it's not just as fun as it could be 
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On February 06 2014 15:14 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 14:15 TimENT wrote:On February 06 2014 14:11 Cheren wrote:On February 06 2014 14:07 TimENT wrote:
DK just has a completely different mindset for the game's future. A far more shittier and more death-bally future. I lost complete faith in blizz when they ruined SC2 with that queen patch. BL-infestor was already a problem before the queen patch. Every matchup besides maybe pre-queen patch TvZ was worse in WoL. Yeah...no. Pre-queen patch TvZ was incredible back then. TvT was incredible back then (still equally as good). TvP was good back then because T could actually threaten P before the 2000 minute mark. PvP ended before 10 minutes (thank god, all P matchups blow). PvZ sucked and always will suck. MAINLY...ZvZ was fucking intense. Baneling wars were fun. This massing bullshit I see now is just awful. Sigh. Blizz you really killed this game. So much potential. I'll always remember you, 2011 SC2. I think nostalgia is speaking. Pre queen patch most TvZs were hellions killing zerg or zerg holding hellions handedly and winning from there. The games where it wasn't that, it was terran going hellion into 3 CC with no threat at all and zerg falling behind then dying later. Broodlord infestor wasn't an issue because zerg couldn't get there most of the time: midgame centric plays like ling/bling/muta were common. The matchup wasn't that great, hellions were way too good. The queen patch made zerg too strong defensively, so then they could rush 3 bases then straight to broodlord/infestor with only a short midgame, which accentuated the problem. TvP wasn't all that good back then either: terran was the only one that could be aggressive at all (apart from some minor all-ins from toss), so toss sat back defending until they were finally allowed to move out around 15:00. From that point on, terran just died unless they could hold on to the super late game, with mass CC's, mass ghost/medivac/viking, because tempests didn't exist so toss had no way to pick away at terran from there. So that matchup quickly became a lot of turtling and massing to deathball. Parting made it fresh for a while until players figured out how to deal with storm flanks. PvP sucked ass then, it's much better now. PvZ sucked ass then, it's much better now. ZvT sucked ass then, it's much better now. So yeah, I get it, you don't like protoss, but guess what: others do. Every single matchup in the game is better now then it was in WoL.
Eh I agree with you on PvZ, it's way better in HotS then it is in WoL, by farrrr. Roach/hydra/queen infestor compositions are so much fun and more skill intensive. Timings still make it kind of lame, but once you learn to defend them then the match-up is at an all time high. Except for when swarmhost play dominates the late game; I think that's pretty boring.
However, with the tempest patch I really do think Zerg's are going to find it too dificult to swarmhost turtle when you can't rely on spores. So that style will fade out.
However ZvT pre-queen patch was bangin'. Not that current TvZ isn't fun as well, but tank TvZ is just so much fun to watch.
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On February 06 2014 12:43 ArTiFaKs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 07:39 GuiBz wrote:
David Kim, try to make the game more skilled. The protoss macro is just too easy. They can spend their extra gas by wraping HTs and their extra minerals by wraping zealots. The terran player cannot spend his extra gas in late game. If the Terran's aren't spending their extra gas, maybe they should not take as many geysers then? You see zerg's all the time pulling workers off gas to accrue minerals, or just having expansions that are purely for gas mining. Terran's are probably the least creative players right now, because they feel like everything is either already been figured out, or just aren't trying new things because it's been deemed "not good in this matchup". That has nothing to do with WarpGate at all.
Because the Terran still need gas for upgrades and infrastructure, the gas issue is when they are 3/3 and they have all the infrastructure they need, by then, their minerals lines are already saturated and pull SCVs from gas won't help much. This has to do with the rigid terran production infrastructure as well as the mineral/gas distrubition of terran units (mainly ghosts).
How are terran less creative? They have always played mech in TvT and with the mech upgrades, we are seeing more mech ZvT. The only match up we don't see mech much is PvT, and it isn't because of creativity, it is because it just isn't that good vP. It is like saying protoss players aren't creative because EVERY protoss makes a MsC. They do it because it is good and they can't be competitive without it. Remember that these pros are playing for their careers, they will try everything they can to win.
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Not impressed , same automatic responses David gives out.
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EPT
