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Wow; what a circle-jerk. I for one like the answers he gave. They seem to be fair & balanced answers and he seems to be aware of the questions that where raised. And I like he isn't trying to recreate Broodwar. I disliked that game.
Which brings me to the second thing I wanted to say:
A lot of the pro's are ex-Broodwar. It is sort of understandable they will always like SC1. It's nostalgia; it's the game they grew up with. I have those same feelings for other games so I can sympathise. What annoys me is the sheer amount of people who never played Broodwar seriously yet claim it was the better game. I don't know why this is. Maybe you hear your favorite player say this. Maybe you think something is wrong and would like it to see fixed. If it's the first: please stop. If it's the second; great. However do realize Broodwar isn't some magic bullet with the perfect solution to anything. The solution might very well be something else. Instead of being toxic to David you can also try to offer solutions other then "bring broodwar back hurhur".
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I'm very surprised at the negativity. I didn't think there were that many people that were that upset about the game's state. I think the game is in a OK spot, even though it could be better, like almost everything.
I love the fact that they did this and find the answers entirely reasonable. Hopefully they'll do this again.
I'm very intrigued by TvP Mech starting to crop up. Hopefully we can see some of that in televised games soon.
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On February 06 2014 18:39 MaestroMaus wrote:
Wow; what a circle-jerk. I for one like the answers he gave. They seem to be fair & balanced answers and he seems to be aware of the questions that where raised. And I like he isn't trying to recreate Broodwar. I disliked that game.
Which brings me to the second thing I wanted to say:
A lot of the pro's are ex-Broodwar. It is sort of understandable they will always like SC1. It's nostalgia; it's the game they grew up with. I have those same feelings for other games so I can sympathise. What annoys me is the sheer amount of people who never played Broodwar seriously yet claim it was the better game. I don't know why this is. Maybe you hear your favorite player say this. Maybe you think something is wrong and would like it to see fixed. If it's the first: please stop. If it's the second; great. However do realize Broodwar isn't some magic bullet with the perfect solution to anything. The solution might very well be something else. Instead of being toxic to David you can also try to offer solutions other then "bring broodwar back hurhur".
Lets turn it the other way around. You most likely never played bw seriously and yet claim it sucks?
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On February 06 2014 18:55 TaShadan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 18:39 MaestroMaus wrote:
Wow; what a circle-jerk. I for one like the answers he gave. They seem to be fair & balanced answers and he seems to be aware of the questions that where raised. And I like he isn't trying to recreate Broodwar. I disliked that game.
Which brings me to the second thing I wanted to say:
A lot of the pro's are ex-Broodwar. It is sort of understandable they will always like SC1. It's nostalgia; it's the game they grew up with. I have those same feelings for other games so I can sympathise. What annoys me is the sheer amount of people who never played Broodwar seriously yet claim it was the better game. I don't know why this is. Maybe you hear your favorite player say this. Maybe you think something is wrong and would like it to see fixed. If it's the first: please stop. If it's the second; great. However do realize Broodwar isn't some magic bullet with the perfect solution to anything. The solution might very well be something else. Instead of being toxic to David you can also try to offer solutions other then "bring broodwar back hurhur". Lets turn it the other way around. You most likely never played bw seriously and yet claim it sucks?
I think even implying that BW was not the best RTS of its time is anything but insane but I would also say that when people say that they hate how the AI is infinitely improved and stuff does what you tell it to without you having to basically force the issue is a massive improvement that I would not take lightly.
Now with all the AI and quality of life improvements if you had added those to BW would it have made it better then SC2? I do not know and I do not have the ability or chance to know but I do sort of wish I could because it would be fun to try but since I don't I have to live with what I have warts and all.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
I'm very surprised at the negativity. I didn't think there were that many people that were that upset about the game's state.
People will always find something to complain about, even in a perfect world
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Surprised by the negativity, may not agree with everything but I think it is great that the developers are taking a moment to talk to us. Sometimes it feels like people forget that the developers have no hidden agenda against their own game and are only doing their best to improve an already decent game. So from me, thank you David.
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On Broodwar...to be honest patch 1.3 of StarCraft was better than Broodwar. 1.2 was stupid due to how overpowered stacked air units were (wraiths and scouts) and broodwar provided too many hard counters (lurkers, devourers, corsair, valkeries) that made the game less fun IMO.
So Broodwar wasn't even as good as vanilla StarCraft ;P
However, HotS is definitely an improvement on WoL and I think LotV has a chance to finish the game. Its a great game and reasonably balanced on most ladder maps for most matchups. And its fun to play with friends.
I wouldn't be surprised to see a big swing in race balance before LotV comes out either. WoL had ups and downs off very minor balance tweaks.
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On February 06 2014 18:55 TaShadan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 18:39 MaestroMaus wrote:
Wow; what a circle-jerk. I for one like the answers he gave. They seem to be fair & balanced answers and he seems to be aware of the questions that where raised. And I like he isn't trying to recreate Broodwar. I disliked that game.
Which brings me to the second thing I wanted to say:
A lot of the pro's are ex-Broodwar. It is sort of understandable they will always like SC1. It's nostalgia; it's the game they grew up with. I have those same feelings for other games so I can sympathise. What annoys me is the sheer amount of people who never played Broodwar seriously yet claim it was the better game. I don't know why this is. Maybe you hear your favorite player say this. Maybe you think something is wrong and would like it to see fixed. If it's the first: please stop. If it's the second; great. However do realize Broodwar isn't some magic bullet with the perfect solution to anything. The solution might very well be something else. Instead of being toxic to David you can also try to offer solutions other then "bring broodwar back hurhur". Lets turn it the other way around. You most likely never played bw seriously and yet claim it sucks?
Don't be silly. I didn't say Broodwar sucks. I said I didn't like it. And I said that you can't fix the problems of a modern game with te solutions of an older game that's different in a lot of ways (including technical ways). Don't put words into my mouth I haven't spoken.
Also; I don't need to "have played broodwar seriously" to make the statement that I didn't like it. It's subjective.
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I did not like his answers, his answers just seem like he doesn't have passion or understanding of the game and what makes a game like this fun. I'm seriously questioning any hope for SCII to thrive with him unable to notice things like oracles and swarm hosts being fine in their current state. Seems like he is almost always on the defensive, and I really can't see where he is coming from because his logic behind everything is coming from what seems like a numbers perspective rather than game play.
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On February 06 2014 19:24 Eliezar wrote:
On Broodwar...to be honest patch 1.3 of StarCraft was better than Broodwar. 1.2 was stupid due to how overpowered stacked air units were (wraiths and scouts) and broodwar provided too many hard counters (lurkers, devourers, corsair, valkeries) that made the game less fun IMO.
So Broodwar wasn't even as good as vanilla StarCraft ;P
However, HotS is definitely an improvement on WoL and I think LotV has a chance to finish the game. Its a great game and reasonably balanced on most ladder maps for most matchups. And its fun to play with friends.
I wouldn't be surprised to see a big swing in race balance before LotV comes out either. WoL had ups and downs off very minor balance tweaks.
Totally agree! Hots has been a lot of fun and a massive improvement. Can't wait to see what they are going to do next.
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I don't feel like the game is mostly good balance but honestly, i really feel like DK doesn't know what he's talking about.
For example when he's talking about the Oracle and how people learn to defend it.
It's not the fact that an Oracle can kill a whole eco line when the Terran has bad defense what's bothering me - It's the fact that a Protoss can go for a third base off an Oracle and the MSC, even if the Terran has a good defense, because Terran can't leave his base.
Also, I feel like the whole thing in the end was more or less for nothing because DK said a whole lot without really saying anything
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Russian Federation125 Posts
Lets poll and see if common players still trust Kim, or may be he is incompetent and must leave this game for god sake.
Poll: You opinion about David Kim as balance designerYeh he is awsome. (29) 15% He is slowpoke but ok. (23) 12% He is killing sc2 with his incompetence. (131) 66% I don't care i play moba already. (17) 9% 200 total votes Your vote: You opinion about David Kim as balance designer (Vote): Yeh he is awsome.
(Vote): He is slowpoke but ok.
(Vote): He is killing sc2 with his incompetence.
(Vote): I don't care i play moba already.
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France9034 Posts
On February 06 2014 19:51 dargul wrote:Lets poll and see if common players still trust Kim, or may be he is incompetent and must leave this game for god sake. Poll: You opinion about David Kim as balance designerYeh he is awsome. (29) 15% He is slowpoke but ok. (23) 12% He is killing sc2 with his incompetence. (131) 66% I don't care i play moba already. (17) 9% 200 total votes Your vote: You opinion about David Kim as balance designer (Vote): Yeh he is awsome.
(Vote): He is slowpoke but ok.
(Vote): He is killing sc2 with his incompetence.
(Vote): I don't care i play moba already.
No answer suits me... 
Mine would be "I don't think he's incompetent but he's got tastes that seem to be really different than those of many spectators/players".
Oh, *ding* 3000 ! 
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Seems like the circlejerk is leaning towards hating on DK for these answers, but personally I think he never dodged a question and actually provided good reasoning for their decisions. This doesn't mean you have to agree with all of them, but there was nothing wrong with how this Q&A was approached.
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Russian Federation125 Posts
I'm really curious if "There are korean pros who play mech on ladder" why Kim can't show us they reps or something how he sees mech play.
It's better to show 1 time then tell us 100 times that mech is working in tvp
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On February 06 2014 20:13 dargul wrote:
I'm really curious if "There are korean pros who play mech on ladder" why Kim can't show us they reps or something how he sees mech play.
It's better to show 1 time then tell us 100 times that mech is working in tvp
I'm pretty sure the korean pros practicing mech for their upcoming tournament matches don't want their strategies spoiled.
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On February 06 2014 18:36 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 16:58 lichter wrote:On February 06 2014 16:54 markrevival wrote:
i feel like there needs to be a separate forum here for people who hate StarCraft 2. Zealously would probably continue to read that forum bec he is a masochist Nah I'd just blanket ban everyone
If this forum had a purge of assholes, would any of us be safe?
Incidentally... Hey, assholes, this past month a key member of the design team has been attempting to engage with the SC2 community. Are we just going to pretty much ignore that? Yes, tribalism is fun. Who doesn't like to "I-just-discovered-potterying it up" by a roaring fire, explaining to each other why "they" are not only wrong but evil?
But after the rosy glow of self righteous furvour fades? What did he say again?
David Kim isn't the captain of the good ship SC2. Right now it's patch time and the kind of change he can get done is limited.
We don't generally do unit design changes with patches (only exception here I can think of off the top of my head was when we added the Phoenix range upgrade back in Wings),
Harassment options always seem overpowered at first. Implying that the balance team don't pay too much attention to initial community feedback on harassment changes.
Harassment options such as the Oracle harass get weaker over time due to players learning how to defend better against them.
European PvZ is especially broken for some reason.
We don't like seeing games where two players both just sit back and mass up to their composition before engaging. This is why we're currently looking into the EU late game PvZ issue.
David Kim is watching swarm host games he likes (Proleague?)
Games where Swarm Hosts are used and there's constant action everywhere including Swarm Hosts aggressively moving around often after spawning locusts leading into each side's victory are really fun to watch.
There's a lot of other stuff, including a good bit about PvT, but just from this... If you're interested in engaging with, rather than insulting, David Kim and the balance team you might solve a problem they are working of that I think most of the community recognise as a problem. He pretty much asks for help at one point.
[In] late game PvZ situation where both players refuse to engage and the game drags on for a long time. We'd really love to come up with an awesome solution to this problem without hurting the good uses of Swarm Hosts.
Maybe, just maybe you can apply your gargantuan brain to think of a clever way, within the constraints of a patch, of fixing the problem.
It's unfixable you say? Then what the hell are you doing in this thread? Go agitate for deeper changes with LotV or support Starbow or make your own mod. Right now this thread is 50% mixed whining and simple toxicity making it barely readable. When we reach background levels of crazy then come back. We'll have missed you!
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Russian Federation125 Posts
On February 06 2014 20:16 nkr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 20:13 dargul wrote:
I'm really curious if "There are korean pros who play mech on ladder" why Kim can't show us they reps or something how he sees mech play.
It's better to show 1 time then tell us 100 times that mech is working in tvp I'm pretty sure the korean pros practicing mech for their upcoming tournament matches don't want their strategies spoiled.
all of them use lllllllll so ni1 will know who is playing. And again Kim is gml random - why he can't show us how you supposed to play as terran? show us how to punish protoss after failed allin or how EXACTLY ghost buff helps counter blink allin.
But no, all he does is talking...
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Tbh it's just nostalgia. When I started playing WC3 I was like, what's up with all the heroes and shit. It stands in the way of the pure strategic depth that was there in SC:BW, I've played before. Of course I loved the game, but it was only when SC2 came out that I truly realized how unique of a game it was and missed the extra strategy input from all the RPG elements. Much more fun spells and upgrades etc.
I guess we'll just have to wait for WC4 for people to really praise on SC2.
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Deathball not a problem, force field not a problem ... meh, I'll continue to watch BW thanks David rather than war of the worlds.
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EPT
