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On January 20 2014 13:05 dcemuser wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2014 13:00 KDot2 wrote:
what are good builds for ? Should I just look up brood war builds ? No; if you want BW builds, you're looking for the SC2BW mod. This is kind of a mix, so the best builds were things that worked in both SC1 and SC2 - for example, Forge expands for Protoss are similar (not identical, but the concept is very similar) in both SC1 and SC2 and work well in Starbow.
haha the problem is that I never played brood war only sc2
so Im completely lost and dont know what to do as zerg
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Awesome! Vulture adjustment is nice, and I'm gonna have to experiment with some more sentinel openers with this adjustment!
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On January 20 2014 13:55 StutteR wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2014 12:31 Sogetsu wrote:
Maybe this is stupid, but like other said, Phoenix are way more fun to play and watch than Corsairs, but both of them has key things on the game, like Splash or Moving fire.
So... could it be possible to change the Corsair for the Phoenix but put it with 2 modes like Vikings or something? So on one mode they act as normal Phoenixes (with or w/o Graviton) and the other can't shot while moving and maybe they are slower but fires with splash? Phoenix just don't make sense as a unit... Auto moving-shot, faster than and beat Vikings and Muta, and have ability to harass and take important units out of the fight.
Maybe it's more that Corsairs feel a bit too plain. The model and animation are pretty boring too..it almost looks 2-D.
I'd feel better if it fired missiles maybe or lasers or something that gave it a visual cue. It definitely needs to be spiced up and the model changed, at a minimum. Maybe given an added feature or spell. Like Blink (kidding) 
On January 20 2014 13:55 KDot2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2014 13:05 dcemuser wrote:On January 20 2014 13:00 KDot2 wrote:
what are good builds for ? Should I just look up brood war builds ? No; if you want BW builds, you're looking for the SC2BW mod. This is kind of a mix, so the best builds were things that worked in both SC1 and SC2 - for example, Forge expands for Protoss are similar (not identical, but the concept is very similar) in both SC1 and SC2 and work well in Starbow. haha the problem is that I never played brood war only sc2 so Im completely lost and dont know what to do as zerg
Experiment! It's a benefit if you haven't played brood war at this point, honestly. This isn't the same game - builds will turn turn out different than BW and SC2. Starbow needs creative players willing to experiment with compositions etc. You'll notice in almost all of the vods today in Razer Starbow that people were floating way too many resources. Most Zergs floated 1-3k minerals and 1-3k gas. There's a lot of potential for new builds in this game.
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More feedback for devs:
It's awesome mech for Terran is basically Brood War mech vs Protoss...but bio is pretty bad now...
You sorta went from SC2 where mech is shit, to the opposite extreme where bio is shit...
Is there a reason why there is no combat shields in this and why marauders suck? Just curious. It'd be awesome to have bio and mech both be viable, instead of one or the other.
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On January 20 2014 12:56 Munk200 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2014 10:41 avilo wrote:
Irradiate is fine. It's one of the only counters, (probably the only one) to mass mutalisk. It needs to remain as is, and it also can be micro'd against by good players.
If you touch that, mass muta will be too powerful, especially with 12+ unit selection in a game like this...which would mean you'd then have to nerf unit selection...etc, it would become a slippery slope of changes that are unnecessary.
To sum up: you can micro vs irradiate with practice (just like Brood War) and mass muta with greater selection limit than 12 arguably makes mutalisks even more powerful in this than Brood War. So while irradiate with smartcast is powerful, 12+ units in group selection with Brood War style mutalisks is also powerful and they seem to balance each other out.
Also, there are a lot of Brood War noobies playing Starbow that came only from SC2 and don't realize scourge are in this game -_- Irradiate is not fine. Its a spell that stacks damage. Name a single other spell that does stack damage. Can you? No. The reason is because its blatantly broken. Lets have storms stack damage, , or Plague stack damage. It would be real fun to cast 4 plagues and watch your army all go to 1 HP in about 3 seconds. or to cast 2 storms on top of each other and do a total of 250 damage over the 6 seconds rather than the 125
Its important to not look at skills in a vacuum. Irradiate may be overpowered on its own but look at what the race as a whole offers. Without Irradiate Terran will outright lose against Zerg because of Dark Swarm. Irradiate is necessary to control Defiler numbers.
Therefore Irradiate actually balances Dark Swarm. Irradiate is also not a ground target ability, Storm is a ground target ability which makes it have much more utility, meaning it can't be as powerful as Irradiate.
Now how do we counter Irradiate? ... Scourge. Scourge are unbelievably powerful in the right hands, there are times when Flash just lost all his vessels to a scourge swarm against Jaedong. Look mum, no Irradiate!
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Guess I just have to say it.
Phoenix's are no where near as useful (let alone fun to use) as Corsairs, please look at Bisu VOD's before making comments about the Corsair (it was Bisu's signature unit).
The value of a unit is not defined by how many abilities it has, we should have learned this already from SC2. Corsairs are way more fun to use and open up way more strategies than Phoenixs, I shouldn't have to explain this, just understand how to use them properly.
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On January 20 2014 14:23 avilo wrote:
More feedback for devs:
It's awesome mech for Terran is basically Brood War mech vs Protoss...but bio is pretty bad now...
You sorta went from SC2 where mech is shit, to the opposite extreme where bio is shit...
Is there a reason why there is no combat shields in this and why marauders suck? Just curious. It'd be awesome to have bio and mech both be viable, instead of one or the other.
I dunno, at my level, bio>>>mech (in tvp). Considering that bio is already pre-split you can easily stim-a-move, and micro a bunch to snipe reavers. I even beat some guys who are way better than me.
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On January 20 2014 14:34 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2014 12:56 Munk200 wrote:On January 20 2014 10:41 avilo wrote:
Irradiate is fine. It's one of the only counters, (probably the only one) to mass mutalisk. It needs to remain as is, and it also can be micro'd against by good players.
If you touch that, mass muta will be too powerful, especially with 12+ unit selection in a game like this...which would mean you'd then have to nerf unit selection...etc, it would become a slippery slope of changes that are unnecessary.
To sum up: you can micro vs irradiate with practice (just like Brood War) and mass muta with greater selection limit than 12 arguably makes mutalisks even more powerful in this than Brood War. So while irradiate with smartcast is powerful, 12+ units in group selection with Brood War style mutalisks is also powerful and they seem to balance each other out.
Also, there are a lot of Brood War noobies playing Starbow that came only from SC2 and don't realize scourge are in this game -_- Irradiate is not fine. Its a spell that stacks damage. Name a single other spell that does stack damage. Can you? No. The reason is because its blatantly broken. Lets have storms stack damage, , or Plague stack damage. It would be real fun to cast 4 plagues and watch your army all go to 1 HP in about 3 seconds. or to cast 2 storms on top of each other and do a total of 250 damage over the 6 seconds rather than the 125 Its important to not look at skills in a vacuum. Irradiate may be overpowered on its own but look at what the race as a whole offers. Without Irradiate Terran will outright lose against Zerg because of Dark Swarm. Irradiate is necessary to control Defiler numbers. Therefore Irradiate actually balances Dark Swarm. Irradiate is also not a ground target ability, Storm is a ground target ability which makes it have much more utility, meaning it can't be as powerful as Irradiate. Now how do we counter Irradiate? ... Scourge. Scourge are unbelievably powerful in the right hands, there are times when Flash just lost all his vessels to a scourge swarm against Jaedong. Look mum, no Irradiate!
The only thing i think is OP about iradiate is that the damage stacks. If the damage didnt stack i think it would be ok.
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On January 20 2014 13:08 Qwyn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2014 12:15 sluggaslamoo wrote:On January 20 2014 11:15 Qwyn wrote:
Savior has quite decent APM -_-. 200-230 apm is not high by any standards, and he was definitely held back by it. His amazing brain more than made up for it though. The Bisu build was a direct attack on SaviOr's mechanical deficiency and had an extremely high multitask requirement. Which is why when the Bisu build came out, the only person that could actually win with it was Bisu. Also other Zergs didn't struggle against it as much as SaviOr did because they had better mechanics. The Bisu build was an attack on how inflexible Savior's 3H in ZvP was...Not mechanical deficiency...while Savior isn't the fastest player 250 APM does not present a "mechanical deficiency." I don't know if you've ever watched a Savior POV but he's actually extremely efficient. And the "Bisu build" had been experimented with even before Bisu - he was just the one who perfected it and exploited Savior's greatest weakness - his inflexibility. Anyhow, the Starbow games today were awesome and I really enjoyed watching Beastyqt and Blade's respective POVs.
What? SaviOr was extremely flexible, that's why he was so good, he could adapt to almost any situation.
The Bisu build turns ZvP into a game of mechanics, whoever wins the game of mechanics wins the game. If there was a Zerg who had the mechanics to defend against the Bisu build, then Bisu would lose, as made evident by Jaedong. This is also why other Protosses still struggled even after the "Revolution" took place.
Other Zergs would use SaviOr's build yet SaviOr had the hardest time against the Bisu build why? Simply because of mechanics. SaviOr lost because he couldn't keep up with Bisu's multitask, period.
The Daezang build was different, and forge FE was completely unstructured. The Bisu build had never been seen before until that fateful day.
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On January 20 2014 14:34 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2014 12:56 Munk200 wrote:On January 20 2014 10:41 avilo wrote:
Irradiate is fine. It's one of the only counters, (probably the only one) to mass mutalisk. It needs to remain as is, and it also can be micro'd against by good players.
If you touch that, mass muta will be too powerful, especially with 12+ unit selection in a game like this...which would mean you'd then have to nerf unit selection...etc, it would become a slippery slope of changes that are unnecessary.
To sum up: you can micro vs irradiate with practice (just like Brood War) and mass muta with greater selection limit than 12 arguably makes mutalisks even more powerful in this than Brood War. So while irradiate with smartcast is powerful, 12+ units in group selection with Brood War style mutalisks is also powerful and they seem to balance each other out.
Also, there are a lot of Brood War noobies playing Starbow that came only from SC2 and don't realize scourge are in this game -_- Irradiate is not fine. Its a spell that stacks damage. Name a single other spell that does stack damage. Can you? No. The reason is because its blatantly broken. Lets have storms stack damage, , or Plague stack damage. It would be real fun to cast 4 plagues and watch your army all go to 1 HP in about 3 seconds. or to cast 2 storms on top of each other and do a total of 250 damage over the 6 seconds rather than the 125 Its important to not look at skills in a vacuum. Irradiate may be overpowered on its own but look at what the race as a whole offers. Without Irradiate Terran will outright lose against Zerg because of Dark Swarm. Irradiate is necessary to control Defiler numbers. Therefore Irradiate actually balances Dark Swarm. Irradiate is also not a ground target ability, Storm is a ground target ability which makes it have much more utility, meaning it can't be as powerful as Irradiate. Now how do we counter Irradiate? ... Scourge. Scourge are unbelievably powerful in the right hands, there are times when Flash just lost all his vessels to a scourge swarm against Jaedong. Look mum, no Irradiate!
That line bears repeating time and time again. Whether it is a unit, building, or skill .... they can't be viewed in a vacuum. Their cost and use is balanced relative to the entire kit of the race, and the application against particular other counters and deficiencies. Simplified, perfect balance exists .... it is called chess. One of the greatest games of all time. 1st and foremost because it is a mirror. Starcraft is not that, and as such more nuance of consideration is required for any individual spell or unit within a race. Being even twice as powerful/useful as a similar unit "MAY" be fine, when all other aspects are considered.
Is that the case here, I think more time w/ the current patch/revision is needed. Still, in general, this principle stands ... and can't be stated enough considering the level of debate we hear in the SC community.
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On January 20 2014 14:53 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2014 13:08 Qwyn wrote:On January 20 2014 12:15 sluggaslamoo wrote:On January 20 2014 11:15 Qwyn wrote:
Savior has quite decent APM -_-. 200-230 apm is not high by any standards, and he was definitely held back by it. His amazing brain more than made up for it though. The Bisu build was a direct attack on SaviOr's mechanical deficiency and had an extremely high multitask requirement. Which is why when the Bisu build came out, the only person that could actually win with it was Bisu. Also other Zergs didn't struggle against it as much as SaviOr did because they had better mechanics. The Bisu build was an attack on how inflexible Savior's 3H in ZvP was...Not mechanical deficiency...while Savior isn't the fastest player 250 APM does not present a "mechanical deficiency." I don't know if you've ever watched a Savior POV but he's actually extremely efficient. And the "Bisu build" had been experimented with even before Bisu - he was just the one who perfected it and exploited Savior's greatest weakness - his inflexibility. Anyhow, the Starbow games today were awesome and I really enjoyed watching Beastyqt and Blade's respective POVs. What? SaviOr was extremely flexible, that's why he was so good, he could adapt to almost any situation. The Bisu build turns ZvP into a game of mechanics, whoever wins the game of mechanics wins the game. If there was a Zerg who had the mechanics to defend against the Bisu build, then Bisu would lose, as made evident by Jaedong. This is also why other Protosses still struggled even after the "Revolution" took place. Other Zergs would use SaviOr's build yet SaviOr had the hardest time against the Bisu build why? Simply because of mechanics. SaviOr lost because he couldn't keep up with Bisu's multitask, period. The Daezang build was different, and forge FE was completely unstructured. The Bisu build had never been seen before until that fateful day.
Well I'm gonna have to bluntly disagree, but I don't think it's worth discussing this anymore in the Starbow thread, ahaha. Anyone know if there are any more tournaments for SB coming up? Is ESL still doing Starbow tourneys?
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Can we use the oracle model for the sentinel?? Sentinel is just so plain ugly.
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Hey!
Don't know if this bug has been pointed out yet, but when you set the rally point for a lurker being morphed, it actually register (the lurker will go to where you right clicked) but you can't see the rally line
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On January 20 2014 15:02 Morbidius wrote:
Can we use the oracle model for the sentinel?? Sentinel is just so plain ugly.
That would be confusing to the new players... Sentinel midel looks OK.
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On January 20 2014 15:02 Morbidius wrote:
Can we use the oracle model for the sentinel?? Sentinel is just so plain ugly.
+1 . . . I know this is a custom mod and all of the work was voluntary. . . but both sentinel and corsair's models are not great looking and devs should consider updating them in the future. And their weapon effects. Also, I like scourge when they were air-banelings. It was alot more fun to watch them explode. Maybe you can just change them from green to blue/purple or something?
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On January 20 2014 13:50 Munk200 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2014 13:19 Integra wrote:On January 20 2014 13:17 Munk200 wrote:On January 20 2014 13:14 Integra wrote:On January 20 2014 13:08 Munk200 wrote:On January 20 2014 13:03 dcemuser wrote:On January 20 2014 12:56 Munk200 wrote:On January 20 2014 10:41 avilo wrote:
Irradiate is fine. It's one of the only counters, (probably the only one) to mass mutalisk. It needs to remain as is, and it also can be micro'd against by good players.
If you touch that, mass muta will be too powerful, especially with 12+ unit selection in a game like this...which would mean you'd then have to nerf unit selection...etc, it would become a slippery slope of changes that are unnecessary.
To sum up: you can micro vs irradiate with practice (just like Brood War) and mass muta with greater selection limit than 12 arguably makes mutalisks even more powerful in this than Brood War. So while irradiate with smartcast is powerful, 12+ units in group selection with Brood War style mutalisks is also powerful and they seem to balance each other out.
Also, there are a lot of Brood War noobies playing Starbow that came only from SC2 and don't realize scourge are in this game -_- Irradiate is not fine. Its a spell that stacks damage. Name a single other spell that does stack damage. Can you? No. The reason is because its blatantly broken. Lets have storms stack damage, , or Plague stack damage. It would be real fun to cast 4 plagues and watch your army all go to 1 HP in about 3 seconds. or to cast 2 storms on top of each other and do a total of 250 damage over the 6 seconds rather than the 125 Irradiate has always been this way though, iirc. Just make it easier to see and react to, like in Brood War. Science Vessels were awkward as fuck and had a literal casting delay on the Irradiate, and if you wanted to move them backwards after that, the Science Vessel had to take a sec to stop its momentum. Irradiate was also highly obvious (pretty big cloud) and was indicated very clearly on the unit portrait (so you could find it quickly with tab). Hm... i didn't realize it stacked in BW. Well in this game i think its way to strong if the damage stacks because of unit pathing and just overall better AI. Also air units need to naturally spread out like they do in SC2, the fact they stay perma stacked is sorta stupid imo.. On a slightly different note, what about Dark Swarm, or just Defilers in general. They have like literally 0 cast range. It makes it very difficult to use they spells and keep them alive. Maybe give them like a 6 cast range for the spells? people complaining over that Starbow has demanding mechanics? I'm really starting to like this. Because having a cast range of 1 is "demanding mechanics".......... it must be since you are complaining  By that logic SC2 must have crazy hard mechanics, because there are a lot of terrans that say HSM range is too short.
ya it does actually, problem however is that there aren't enough of them unfortunately, but yes at least one hard mechanic does exist, even in SC2. So I agree with you there.
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It's been a while since I've played terran, but... in t vs z, I can't help but to think marines are waaaaaay worse than they were in BW. Am I crazy or what's the difference?
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On January 20 2014 16:34 playa wrote:
It's been a while since I've played terran, but... in t vs z, I can't help but to think marines are waaaaaay worse than they were in BW. Am I crazy or what's the difference?
They're not supposed to be the same. In fact, there isn't a single unit in this game that is exactly the same as it was in Broodwar. Because it's not Broodwar, it's Starbow.
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On January 20 2014 16:34 playa wrote:
It's been a while since I've played terran, but... in t vs z, I can't help but to think marines are waaaaaay worse than they were in BW. Am I crazy or what's the difference?
Probably because of the AI and the engine. Zerglings are smarter to get surface area than in BW, where they literally linked behind eachanother a bit before trying to cover an enemy unit from each sides
But also in return, you are able to control your marines (and every other unit) lot easier, than in BW
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EPT
