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On January 18 2014 20:36 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 20:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 18 2014 20:20 pure.Wasted wrote:On January 18 2014 19:30 SolidSMD wrote:
@pure.wasted
Can you give a decent example of when %miss chance is flawed?
Flawed in what sense? In the sense that it is luck and luck is bad? Or in the sense that it favors some units over others? I have a feeling that you mean the latter. Imagine two scenarios. In the first, a pack of 10 Marines bumrush a Siege Tank on high ground. In the second, a pack of 5 Marauders does the same. They get hit once on the way there. Marines clump up more so they take more splash damage. It takes JUST over one tank hit to kill a Marine, it takes three tank hits to kill a Marauder. There's a 30% chance that 6 Marines will miss/2 Marauders will miss. Let's say that happens. He gets hit by the Tank again. Marines are already dying left and right, a bunch are in red, still not a single Marauder dead even with target fire. Both attackers want to retreat now. Marines still clumped as shit, take another big hit with lots of splash. Marauders retreat at almost identical speed, take less splash damage. With target fire from the tank, one Marauder dies. How many Marines you think died? Safe bet that it was a lot more than two, right? Especially if the tank is target firing? If more than two Marines died, then the Marauder player came out way ahead because his units were tough enough to survive a bunch of hits and fast enough to still get out. Pretty straight forward, I think. So you are saying certain units are better vs other units? interesting.. No, if I wanted to say that, I'd say that "the Terran attacker with Marauders is probably not terribly worried about 2 of his Marauders missing their attacks."
Should have said that in your example, because it seems like all your example was trying to say is that marauders take tanks shots better than marines. The example does not properly present why % miss chance is flawed rather that some units are tougher than others.
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this miss chance sort of sucks but makes for better and more exciting viewing in general because of the unpredictably of it. Having a couple luck factor elements (but not enough that they blatantly break the game) is what made the BW observing experience that much more epic over the years, at least for me. (Scarab hits, high ground advantages, mine hits etc)
scarabs and mines very hard/impossible to recreate as the were in BW tho.
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On January 19 2014 00:11 nukkuj wrote:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0cOY4mg.jpg?1) Blizzard, make it happen!  Would be awesome support from them, but somehow I don't get my hopes too high on this one.
They would probably kill HotS by doing that, so not a chance 
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Banelings still do not have an explode command when above ground and there is no roach warren in the hotkeys.
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On January 19 2014 01:12 JaKaTaK wrote:
Banelings still do not have an explode command when above ground and there is no roach warren in the hotkeys.
Noted
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On January 19 2014 01:02 LuckyFool wrote:
this miss chance sort of sucks but makes for better and more exciting viewing in general because of the unpredictably of it. Having a couple luck factor elements (but not enough that they blatantly break the game) is what made the BW observing experience that much more epic over the years, at least for me. (Scarab hits, high ground advantages, mine hits etc)
scarabs and mines very hard/impossible to recreate as the were in BW tho.
So are Widow Mines your favorite unit in SC2? Completely unpredictable! Might kill fifty Banelings, might kill a Zergling, the only thing that's for sure is it's completely out of the player's hands.
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On January 19 2014 01:53 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2014 01:02 LuckyFool wrote:
this miss chance sort of sucks but makes for better and more exciting viewing in general because of the unpredictably of it. Having a couple luck factor elements (but not enough that they blatantly break the game) is what made the BW observing experience that much more epic over the years, at least for me. (Scarab hits, high ground advantages, mine hits etc)
scarabs and mines very hard/impossible to recreate as the were in BW tho. So are Widow Mines your favorite unit in SC2? Completely unpredictable! Might kill fifty Banelings, might kill a Zergling, the only thing that's for sure is it's completely out of the player's hands.
ZvT engagements involving widow mines are interesting because of the unpredictability. Same for spider mines and reaver shots. Random factors in wc3 worked very well too, outside of some edge cases where they influenced the outcome of the game too much (blademaster).
Honestly, I even think critical strike/dodge would be interesting to try out on some units for general combat abilities. It rewards you for paying more attention to the battle.
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On January 18 2014 21:57 Plansix wrote:
Dota has the exact same mechanic for highground and it is why mid is the most dynamic 1v1 match up.
This.
Miss percentage is just something that is a calculated risk that the player takes into consideration, along with many other real time factors.
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On January 19 2014 01:53 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2014 01:02 LuckyFool wrote:
this miss chance sort of sucks but makes for better and more exciting viewing in general because of the unpredictably of it. Having a couple luck factor elements (but not enough that they blatantly break the game) is what made the BW observing experience that much more epic over the years, at least for me. (Scarab hits, high ground advantages, mine hits etc)
scarabs and mines very hard/impossible to recreate as the were in BW tho. So are Widow Mines your favorite unit in SC2? Completely unpredictable! Might kill fifty Banelings, might kill a Zergling, the only thing that's for sure is it's completely out of the player's hands.
The engagement is completely in the player's hands though. There's a huge risk when attacking into widow mines and more than likely you can see where the mines are. It then becomes positional where you choose you attack from and from what angle.
It's the same thing with high ground advantage. It's a calculated risk. Do you want to go and try to take the high ground knowing you are at a disadvantage? Or do you try to figure out how to attack at different angles or even attack at a better time? It in my opinion it promotes a lot more positional play which I find fun. It's why I always found TvZ and TvT in SC2 really fun to play and to watch.
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pls stop this highground advantage pros and cons discussion. Its pointless. And no one cares.
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I cannot believe how many people are having an issue with the miss chance of higher ground.
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People really need to take a step back on the randomness argument against miss chance. Units in the game attack so often that the randomness evens out so quickly that it complete pales compared to the randomness the fog of war adds in terms of scouting and not scouting an attack.
Even if you assume only 100 attacks up a cliff in one game, you'll still have 40 to 60 hits in 96.5% of cases (I tested 100 million repetitions). And 100 attacks are really not that much if you estimate the total number of attacks in a game, uphill and not uphill. It's really difficult to even construct a case where a game could be decided by chance. I don't know, a very early dragoon timing attacking a bunker up a ramp maybe?
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On January 19 2014 02:24 TheWorldToCome wrote:
I cannot believe how many people are having an issue with the miss chance of higher ground.
Last few pages it was mostly just me posting a lot.
It shouldn't be that surprising, though. People have been complaining about the luck involved with using Widow Mines since forever ago.
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On January 19 2014 02:24 saddaromma wrote:
pls stop this highground advantage pros and cons discussion. Its pointless. And no one cares.
Pretty much.
More evidence - if any more were actually required - that where SC is concerned, everyone is an expert with an opinion.
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On January 19 2014 02:33 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2014 02:24 saddaromma wrote:
pls stop this highground advantage pros and cons discussion. Its pointless. And no one cares. Pretty much. More evidence - if any more were actually required - that where SC is concerned, everyone is an expert with an opinion.
At least TL is better than reddit, which is on full meltdown mode this week.
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Could you add a hold-fire option for Tanks? It could add more micro and add more skill.
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On January 19 2014 02:41 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2014 02:33 aZealot wrote:On January 19 2014 02:24 saddaromma wrote:
pls stop this highground advantage pros and cons discussion. Its pointless. And no one cares. Pretty much. More evidence - if any more were actually required - that where SC is concerned, everyone is an expert with an opinion. At least TL is better than reddit, which is on full meltdown mode this week.
Really? The StarBow sub thread? I may go and have a look for the lols. :D
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On January 19 2014 02:24 saddaromma wrote:
pls stop this highground advantage pros and cons discussion. Its pointless. And no one cares.
Seconded.
On another note, does Bio seem weak to anyone else? It seems like mech is the better option in ALL match-ups.
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On January 19 2014 02:29 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2014 02:24 TheWorldToCome wrote:
I cannot believe how many people are having an issue with the miss chance of higher ground. Last few pages it was mostly just me posting a lot. It shouldn't be that surprising, though. People have been complaining about the luck involved with using Widow Mines since forever ago.
Not trying to instigate more arguing but personally I see widow mines differently because when fighting uphill you will have more time to react and back away. Widow mines don't really offer you the chance to mitigate damage unless your micro is godly.
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On January 19 2014 03:05 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2014 02:41 Grumbels wrote:On January 19 2014 02:33 aZealot wrote:On January 19 2014 02:24 saddaromma wrote:
pls stop this highground advantage pros and cons discussion. Its pointless. And no one cares. Pretty much. More evidence - if any more were actually required - that where SC is concerned, everyone is an expert with an opinion. At least TL is better than reddit, which is on full meltdown mode this week. Really? The StarBow sub thread? I may go and have a look for the lols. :D
The whole subreddit. r/starcraft's latest circlejerk is "Starbow is a circlejerk".
Some people really get insecure when others voice they really like Starbow.
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EPT
