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On January 16 2014 01:47 shivver wrote:Look at this http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/11224202871?page=1LOL I mean that forum has the SH*TTIEST community I have ever seen. There's no doubting where sc2 is headed and despite all that they still resist and insist that david kim and dustin browder is going to lead them to the promised land fuking delusional fanboys
Yet youre the only one who fit the description of a fanboy here. You have a mod which you like alot, then you demand a whole community to quit SC2 and play Starbow instead. Do you know how insane that is? SC2 has been balanced out for years now, and you want a modmaker to take over? Dude .....
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Is any1 subscribed to avilo here? If so post the Avilo vs Sasquatch replays plz :D Both those games were friggin amzing and show why Irradiate and Darkswarm are completely overpowered IMO! (I would but $$$ >( )
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On January 16 2014 00:36 Code wrote:
The smartcast on irrad does make it very powerful. Scourge Ai is also a lot better though. I think there is a lot of things that can be done if it turns out to be too powerful.
You probably dont want to nerf the damage too much cuz it needs to be able to kill lurkers and damage ultras, etc.. but the casting time, casting range, energy cost, or vessel speed/acceleration can all be adjusted so its not simply "spam irrad on good units and fly away" and its more of a risk to take out high profile targets. Something that rewards better control by the T player.
I would say that the game isn't figured out yet. People will start using Vipers with Abduct on SV to kill them before they irradiate everything, and even if they do you will trade your high tier units for their SVs.
On January 16 2014 00:40 dani` wrote:
Is it a mistake Carriers' Interceptors deal only 5 damage, as opposed to 6 in BW? The build time was copied from BW so I kinda think it was an oversight (they do 5 in SC2). Unless I'm mistaken about the damage in BW (never played it), but various sources say it's 6.
It is 6 in BW and 5 in Starbow, but it is 1x6 unlike in SC2 where it is 2x5 since interceptors have 2 shots, so they are stronger in SC2 and in Starbow.
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On January 16 2014 01:56 Avean wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 01:47 shivver wrote:Look at this http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/11224202871?page=1LOL I mean that forum has the SH*TTIEST community I have ever seen. There's no doubting where sc2 is headed and despite all that they still resist and insist that david kim and dustin browder is going to lead them to the promised land fuking delusional fanboys Yet youre the only one who fit the description of a fanboy here. You have a mod which you like alot, then you demand a whole community to quit SC2 and play Starbow instead. Do you know how insane that is? SC2 has been balanced out for years now, and you want a modmaker to take over? Dude .....
dude I didn't demand jack sh*t anywhere in my post
ANYWHERE
I didn't demand the whole community ot quit sc2 and play starbow either, what the fuk are you reading?
Sc2 has been "balanced" ? soul trains balancing out blord infestor and 1-1-1's balancing out late game toss doesn't mean the game is balanced at all.
jesus what the fuk are you on? Is it ritalin?
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On January 16 2014 01:45 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +Then you should play Zerg, as in MtG blue control decks were all about containing threats while securing the card advantage. Aggro decks were those which would "force" response of the opponents, Protoss working much more like an aggro-lock/disrupt deck (like TnT with Stax elements, referring to type 1 decks, with hints of Black Suicide if you decide to all-in).
I disagree. The decks built around milling the opponent while stopping them from playing anything, or decks that shut down their creatures while you ping them to death with otherwise measly flyers and whatnot, strike me as very protossy, in that basically your win is predicated on stopping the opponent from doing almost anything he wants to do, rather than engaging in direct engagements and trying to win with better creatures. OTOH, I haven't played MtG in several years, so maybe that playstyle isn't as prevalent as it once was.
A playstyle that is in its very core selfish, where all the emphasis is placed on what is fun for me right now with no real regard for how the experience will be for other players, will always lead to problems. By its nature it will create a toxic environment, hence why most games tend to move away from that type of design. Time and time again when players are asked what they find the most frustrating, the answer is pretty much always losing without being able to influence the outcome in a meaningful way.
If you enjoy that style that's fine, but it's a horrible business decision. Clearly this mod is made by players who fundamentally disagree with you, for which I am very glad. If you are trying to create a game where everyone can actually have fun, your preferences are directly subversive to that goal.
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On January 16 2014 00:24 sage_francis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2014 23:47 Grumbels wrote:On January 15 2014 23:38 Pirfiktshon wrote:
Thats kinda the point though because of Lurkers and Defiler you needed irrad to even be able to kill them because the impervious Dark swarm otherwise it would always be a uphill battle for Terran no matter the situation so yo uhave to build scourge and use plague on sci vessels and use muta or Hydra to snipe depending if you are plyaing Hydra / Lurker or Muta ling into ultra ling defiler scourge play...... It's okay at first, but in late-game scenarios where the terran has 7+ vessels it just shuts down every zerg tech unit. Use plague, scourges and mutas vs vessels...just like we did in BW....
Mutas v. Vessels. LOL
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A playstyle that is in its very core selfish, where all the emphasis is placed on what is fun for me right now with no real regard for how the experience will be for other players, will always lead to problems. By its nature it will create a toxic environment, hence why most games tend to move away from that type of design. Time and time again when players are asked what they find the most frustrating, the answer is pretty much always losing without being able to influence the outcome in a meaningful way.
If you enjoy that style that's fine, but it's a horrible business decision. Clearly this mod is made by players who fundamentally disagree with you, for which I am very glad. If you are trying to create a game where everyone can actually have fun, your preferences are directly subversive to that goal.
Magic the Gathering and LoL both feature tons of CC and do very well commercially. Substantially better than SC2, actually. The issue is not CC, but rather lack of effective counters.
That said, at the end of the day I'm only going to play games I enjoy, and what I enjoy is crowd control. If designers decide not to make games that I enjoy, thats their prerogative, but I'm not going to cheer it on out of some strange sense of altruism. Luckily, most games these days seems to realize that some sort of balance is necessary--there are a lot of people like myself who enjoy control-based playstyles in all sorts of games, and most competitive games seem to try to strike some balance between accomodating us while giving other players methods for countering control-based strategies.
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plague + 1 muta = 24 dead vessels per shot 
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On January 16 2014 02:02 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 00:24 sage_francis wrote:On January 15 2014 23:47 Grumbels wrote:On January 15 2014 23:38 Pirfiktshon wrote:
Thats kinda the point though because of Lurkers and Defiler you needed irrad to even be able to kill them because the impervious Dark swarm otherwise it would always be a uphill battle for Terran no matter the situation so yo uhave to build scourge and use plague on sci vessels and use muta or Hydra to snipe depending if you are plyaing Hydra / Lurker or Muta ling into ultra ling defiler scourge play...... It's okay at first, but in late-game scenarios where the terran has 7+ vessels it just shuts down every zerg tech unit. Use plague, scourges and mutas vs vessels...just like we did in BW.... Mutas v. Vessels. LOL
Not as standard but if you have some mutas after the vessels have been plagued then it's good with the bounce attack.
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On January 16 2014 02:09 Doominator10 wrote:plague + 1 muta = 24 dead vessels per shot
You mean 3?
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On January 16 2014 02:08 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +A playstyle that is in its very core selfish, where all the emphasis is placed on what is fun for me right now with no real regard for how the experience will be for other players, will always lead to problems. By its nature it will create a toxic environment, hence why most games tend to move away from that type of design. Time and time again when players are asked what they find the most frustrating, the answer is pretty much always losing without being able to influence the outcome in a meaningful way.
If you enjoy that style that's fine, but it's a horrible business decision. Clearly this mod is made by players who fundamentally disagree with you, for which I am very glad. If you are trying to create a game where everyone can actually have fun, your preferences are directly subversive to that goal. Magic the Gathering and LoL both feature tons of CC and do very well commercially. Substantially better than SC2, actually. The issue is not CC, but rather lack of effective counters. That said, at the end of the day I'm only going to play games I enjoy, and what I enjoy is crowd control. If designers decide not to make games that I enjoy, thats their prerogative, but I'm not going to cheer it on out of some strange sense of altruism. Luckily, most games these days seems to realize that some sort of balance is necessary--there are a lot of people like myself who enjoy control-based playstyles in all sorts of games, and most competitive games seem to try to strike some balance between accomodating us while giving other players methods for countering control-based strategies.
The key point being counters, where the control playstyle becomes less about controlling your opponent, and more about move and counter-move. I don't consider control with readily available counters be the same as control without counters. The latter always leads to anger and has largely disappeared from modern games, for good reason.
In the Moba example(I only play dota), you have team mates, counter abilities, items that dispel or give immunity. That is not the same as force field and time warp completely shutting down micro, not even close. One adds dimensions to the game, one removes them.
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On January 16 2014 02:08 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +A playstyle that is in its very core selfish, where all the emphasis is placed on what is fun for me right now with no real regard for how the experience will be for other players, will always lead to problems. By its nature it will create a toxic environment, hence why most games tend to move away from that type of design. Time and time again when players are asked what they find the most frustrating, the answer is pretty much always losing without being able to influence the outcome in a meaningful way.
If you enjoy that style that's fine, but it's a horrible business decision. Clearly this mod is made by players who fundamentally disagree with you, for which I am very glad. If you are trying to create a game where everyone can actually have fun, your preferences are directly subversive to that goal. Magic the Gathering and LoL both feature tons of CC and do very well commercially. Substantially better than SC2, actually. The issue is not CC, but rather lack of effective counters. That said, at the end of the day I'm only going to play games I enjoy, and what I enjoy is crowd control. If designers decide not to make games that I enjoy, thats their prerogative, but I'm not going to cheer it on out of some strange sense of altruism. Luckily, most games these days seems to realize that some sort of balance is necessary--there are a lot of people like myself who enjoy control-based playstyles in all sorts of games, and most competitive games seem to try to strike some balance between accomodating us while giving other players methods for countering control-based strategies.
Yes, but LoL and magic are not RTS games. Sorry to be pedantic, but just because one aspect of game play works well in one or multiple genres does not mean it automatically works throughout all gaming or that it has any relevance to other genres with totally different play-styles & goals. Although I respect your preferences and am not necessarily disagreeing with what you said, just the argument you presented is one that grates on me sometimes.
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ESL tournament is on! I guess we can watch Winter's stream with decemberscalm casting?
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A card like Stasis, for example (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=3948), strikes me as very Protossy. Expend mana to keep your opponent helpless to do anything with any of their creatures, buying you time to whittle them down with spells or mill them out entirely. Thats a very similar design philosophy to a spell like Forcefield.
Yeah, I see what you mean. I'd say the stasis card is more what I called a "lock", and decks who prevent you from playing while milling your are of the "combo" type. Combo deck would set up a lock, or win by creating a situation of complete "control". But real "control" decks, namely, rely on antispell and drawers, and cards that can fetch other cards in orther to punctually deal with threads until securing a card advantage so big (=more cards in hands) that its like a 5 base economy vs 2 :p
But I see your point !
A playstyle that is in its very core selfish, where all the emphasis is placed on what is fun for me right now with no real regard for how the experience will be for other players, will always lead to problems. By its nature it will create a toxic environment, hence why most games tend to move away from that type of design. Time and time again when players are asked what they find the most frustrating, the answer is pretty much always losing without being able to influence the outcome in a meaningful way.
If you enjoy that style that's fine, but it's a horrible business decision. Clearly this mod is made by players who fundamentally disagree with you, for which I am very glad. If you are trying to create a game where everyone can actually have fun, your preferences are directly subversive to that goal.
All ressource-management games feature these aspects, and in fact RTS and Magic are very similar. Its very core to the math themselves and the economics principle behind those games. All of these, including Monopoly, feature some kind of interaction/control of your opponent, and ressource-denying. That is precisely what makes the game fun and competitive: your are not playing alone, but also must prevent the opponent from doing his strategy or at least disrupt his tactics in some ways. Without that, he would not need to adapt his play and all interaction-based play vanishes. Chess is the same: you can complain the other players is "preventing" you from moving in some controlled areas, exactly the same way forcefield does, but the beauty of it is precisely the anticipations of such things and its all about "outsmarting" the opponent by having a better plan.
Without disrupting, you can as well play alone in yabot all day long and then compare your stats vs your friends to figure out who is the best. If you don't enjoy "toxic" environments all that much, maybe you don't genuinely enjoy competitive play itself?
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Let's hope Starbow becomes even more popular^^
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Is there a way with editor to instead of remove smartcast, have it so there is a delay between smartcasts? (Such as the 2nd one won't start casting until the first one finishes the animation)
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United States1437 Posts
Over 1k people watching a Starbow tourney right now. SO AWESOME, so much more fun to watch than HOTS!
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On January 16 2014 01:56 Avean wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 01:47 shivver wrote:Look at this http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/11224202871?page=1LOL I mean that forum has the SH*TTIEST community I have ever seen. There's no doubting where sc2 is headed and despite all that they still resist and insist that david kim and dustin browder is going to lead them to the promised land fuking delusional fanboys Yet youre the only one who fit the description of a fanboy here. You have a mod which you like alot, then you demand a whole community to quit SC2 and play Starbow instead. Do you know how insane that is? SC2 has been balanced out for years now, and you want a modmaker to take over? Dude .....
Reading the thread it seems the community there is just tired of constant spamming of threads like this. Despite all the hype Starbow still has to proove it's a better game and has the same potential like Dota or Counterstrike to surpass the orginal game.
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There's a lot of love for this game because there were 0 expecations going into it, and it's all new and exciting. With SC2 you have an expectation for it to be perfect and therefore every mistake detracts from your experience whereas with StarBow it's much more forgivable for there to be mistakes/balance issues since its a free UMS game.
If blizzard had released StarBow as it is right now instead of SC2, people's opinions of it would be very different.
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On January 16 2014 02:31 HerrHorst wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 01:56 Avean wrote:On January 16 2014 01:47 shivver wrote:Look at this http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/11224202871?page=1LOL I mean that forum has the SH*TTIEST community I have ever seen. There's no doubting where sc2 is headed and despite all that they still resist and insist that david kim and dustin browder is going to lead them to the promised land fuking delusional fanboys Yet youre the only one who fit the description of a fanboy here. You have a mod which you like alot, then you demand a whole community to quit SC2 and play Starbow instead. Do you know how insane that is? SC2 has been balanced out for years now, and you want a modmaker to take over? Dude ..... Reading the thread it seems the community there is just tired of constant spamming of threads like this. Despite all the hype Starbow still has to proove it's a better game and has the same potential like Dota or Counterstrike to surpass the orginal game.
Please do not act like you know how "the community" feels. The only hype I see is about fun.
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EPT
