EPTStarbow - Page 38
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castleeMg
Canada761 Posts
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On January 15 2014 09:56 HystericaLaughter wrote: Do you really think most of the spellcasters having energy upgrades and needing to research half their spells changes the game for the better? I don't. I do, and there are pretty obvious examples as to why they improve the game. Its really not worth discussing until you've played and watched the game a ton of times, because if you did you would realize that they actually add to the game and are important. The Flash Build compared to Fantasy TvP would be a great example for purely just upgrades actually creating lots of diversity and depth. I've even seen plenty of games prove why the HT energy upgrade is so good, but should be an upgrade. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
If you do end up putting more stuff in, keeping to the pattern of "you don't have to do this, but you'll be pretty heavily rewarded if you can do it over the duration of a game" is really good. It allows people to get into the game without having 500 apm, but those that do have such mechanical prowess are rewarded appropriately. Just my opinion of course  | ||
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
Watching Crank play protoss vs Hider, you can really see how his speed and multitasking allow him to execute complex strategies and consistently maximize the yield from smaller groups of units, building towards a substantial advantage over time. I really like that, and it's something that particularly protoss lacks in a big way. | ||
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superpanda27
111 Posts
Gogo! http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/qxc http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/ROOTMinigun http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/AltWinter | ||
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Zergrusher
United States562 Posts
Its been around since 2012(2 years). Starbow has definitely had a Long, crazy development process, and its finalized into a great product. Look up some of the older games/versions of it, and it literally looks completely different. | ||
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Aegeis
United States1619 Posts
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
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SoleSteeler
Canada5427 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On January 15 2014 11:15 Aegeis wrote: The popularity boom of Starbow is the product of the ongoing manifestation of the Starcraft community not being happy with the current state of game design, the rate of game design, and the lack of thorough balance design communication from Blizzard. Defiantly not enough design in this post. Needs more design. | ||
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Zergrusher
United States562 Posts
On January 15 2014 11:15 bo1b wrote: Am I wrong in saying that the infestor once acted like the reaver for zerg in starbow, and that queens used to lay eggs? Am I thinking of something else lol probably a pervious version of Starbow | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On January 15 2014 10:45 Squat wrote: Properly rewarding mechanical ability over the course of a game is something SC2 just lacks in general, TvT and TvZ do a pretty good job, but all too often the other match ups come down to all or nothing situations. If the emphasis is more on doing it as much as you can over a 30 minute game, where the reward fluctuates proportionally depending on how consistent you are, it feels a lot better and more "fair", I guess. Watching Crank play protoss vs Hider, you can really see how his speed and multitasking allow him to execute complex strategies and consistently maximize the yield from smaller groups of units, building towards a substantial advantage over time. I really like that, and it's something that particularly protoss lacks in a big way. I mean, this is what "BW elitists" have been saying since WoL Beta. It seems to have taken a few years for the community's perspective to change from "this is a strategy game, not a mechanics game" to "ok micro actually makes this game way more fun and watchable". I guess you just needed someone like MKP to discover marine micro, and then say hey imagine if every unit was as microable as this, and then you say, well that was pretty much what BW was. | ||
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rift
1819 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On January 15 2014 12:39 rift wrote: Just saw qxc play SK Terran against Lalush and autocast irradiate from 10~ science vessels on every single thing. it was gross Yeah i wondered how long it will take till something like that happens^^ | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On January 15 2014 12:39 rift wrote: Just saw qxc play SK Terran against Lalush and autocast irradiate from 10~ science vessels on every single thing. it was gross Irradiate has autocast? Or you mean smartcasting? | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
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Koxxypoxxy
United States6 Posts
Many of the changes I am suggesting are because I prefer bw to sc2, which I can acknowledge other people do not.I still play bw to this day and regularly. My suggestions for mechanical changes to the mod are rather biased towards bw, but I'd at least like to bring up the conversation. Big ass wall of text inbound... *Mechanical changes/improvements: - tweak unit supply costs: Still doesn't feel like a 200/200 army is a large army. I don't know what everything costs at the moment see, but armies still seem rather small. Though this could just be the still death ball appearance of armies as they move.Bringing me to my next point. - Unit pathing: I don't know how everyone else feels about this, but units STILL ball up too much. Unit pathing alone kept people from mindlessly moving their army about the map wherever they thought a threat present. It would be great if the magic box that was in broodwar (concerning all units, not just muta) was back in the game so a group of units would maintain formation if ordered to move within a certain distance of the box. - Unit pathing: Once units reach an ordered destination they spread themselves out rather awkwardly, as in how the ai goes about doing it is odd. I don't have a specific video example, but it can be plainly seen watching any stream/vod of starbow that is currently out. The movement is independent of the the unit; when units start to clump up they inherently spread apart after reaching a destination. Movement that isn't ordered by the player in my opinion is generally bad, especially when it's not immediate. What i mean by this is the ai only does this if an order hasn't been given in what appears to be 5-10 seconds. - Enemy Health Bars: I think disabling players ability to see there opponents units health bar any other way than clicking on that unit is actually a good thing. It's just another thing that separates bad players from the good and good from the best. Having, one: the ability in the heat of battle to remember what units are injured and focus them down, and two having the apm to check the health of the enemy unit if you do not know. These are important things in BW that have pretty much just been glossed aside in sc2 for convenience, rather than to create good and quite frankly interesting game play. - Gliding: I feel as though this is an up coming feature, if not i'd really like to see it in the game. Lalush made an amazing video regarding the important of acceleration and deceleration in flying and gliding units. - limited unit selection: yes that's right. Why? Other than adding more skill to the game (making it obviously more enjoyable to watch) it makes groups of units more deadly. The harder it is to control a larger army, the more effective smaller groups will be. Conversely a player who has a larger army and is capable of controlling it well is then rewarded for doing so. - Remove smart casting: Get rid of it! (It's absolutely terrible with bw spells especially). It takes the skill of landing a spell. While of course there is skill in landing spells in sc2, the impact of those spells is diminished: One, due to what I have said before about skill, and two, the amount of casters we see on the field. People are literally massing defilers like infesters and spamming dark swarm about. While of course it is an inferior style of play to have 5+ defilers, due to cost/supply it's not something that is just going to go away. Players will continue still continue to build unreasonable numbers of spell casters within their army. Power spells are literally what allowed players to make amazing comebacks and plays in bw, smart casting completely nullifies this. Too many times have I heard "amazing forcefields" or "amazing fungals" from casters on sc2 just to roll my eyes and say to myself "it's not that hard to do, nor that impressive. - Limited building selection vs. multibuilding selection: This is something that I personal have been back and forth on. To me limited building selection made bw more interesting. It added something else to work on, and improve. The macro mechanics of sc2 for me personally were/are a hallow attempt at filling in the loss of skill required to be good at macro. - Macro Mechanics: Concerning queens, chronoboost and the oribital command abilities. I really like what has been done, but i can't help but feel it's half way done (excluding the fact it's beta). Originally this was blizzards way to basically add filler to the game because they realized that with all features they added, they ended up making sc2 too mechanically easy. Rather than just being a filler in starbow, they should actually being viable OPTIONS. Key word being options of course. In sc2 you always build a queen no matter what forever and always, same goes for the orbital command and chronoboost is obviously always used. Attaching scan to the orbital just made the orbital that much better. It became a requirement for each of these mechanics to be used rather than a selective bonus. In starbow it would make it especially interesting if this was so. So say you only make a queen when you need extra defense or require the injects for a specific timing build. The OC will always be necessary as long as scan is attached, (not saying detach scan) but allowing for multiple timings for the OC to come in would be nice. In Sc2 it's more or less build OC asap, and deviations for first OC timing are few, on top of that there is no reason to not immediately turn a CC into an OC upon CC completion. - Auto-surround: Just to talk about it as I've never seen brought up before. It's a bit annoying to have (usually with zlings) zerglings run around the target aimlessly because it is surrounded by the maximum #. This to me interferes with micro, as I know really have to battle the AI to grab the extra zlings that are continuously fleeing my mouse without taking off the zerglings that are attacking x unit. In bw the zerglings would more or less just stand there as the ai tried to get closer to enemy unit. This made it much easier to put zerglings and melee units in general where they needed to be, as they weren't running around like chickens with their heads chopped off. ( - Worker rally: This is by far the least important on my list and I'm guessing many others. For me this could stay or go and I'd be indifferent. It's a cool feature to me because APM must be used to insure/secure an increase in income (ie: the worker is essentially dead weight until the player has told it to mine minerals/gas). Disabling worker rally adds more depth to macroing and more skill to the game. Adding more skill to the game is a part of why these changes seem just to me, but also due to the fact that it made the game that much more rewarding when it was done perfectly (or at least near perfectly). It was fun to watch because of how people such as jaedong and flash were able to overcome these and many other limitations in bw. The beauty of starcraft never lie in the strategy portion of the game for me personally (we have Supcom:FA for that), but the execution of the strategy. That said, lets talk about Starbow units! Zerg: - Defiler is too big: Just that, i don't think there is anymore to say about it. - Defiler dark swarm: It's kinda hard to see right now (yes I have terrible eye sight). I was just watching streams and desert maps it and such. Making it darker would be cool. -Roach: I love the changes for the roach but I think if researching burrow and burrow move should do fundamentally different things and burrow move should not require burrow. Currently the roaches move too fast while burrow moving, but I love the idea of a short timer in which they can be burrowed. I think researching burrow should, for the roach specifically cause it to heal quickly like it does in sc2 (only when burrowed and not moving). To me this makes sense, as it's terribly hard to recover from wounds while you are moving around! Possibly have 2-3 hotkeys on the roach for burrow move, unburrow while moving, and regular burrow. If implemented, being able to seamlessly transition from being regular stationary burrow to burrow move would introduce a great new aspect of micro. - Nydus canal: Bring it back or put in the nydus worm (if it's already in i feel silly). I personally thought would be cool is if the nydus worm from sc2 cost as much as a nydus canal from bw when built on creep. if built off creep it is more expensive etc etc. Either way zerg need some version of this building to come back (if it's not already there). -Queen: It would be nice if the queen filled a more niche role. You might be thinking doesn't it now already? No. In sc2 you are required to build a queen. It might as well be a building honestly. It would be nice to see people making a strategic choice as to when they build queens. That way the building of a queen will more or less tie into and or sprinkle into builds. I don't know how with the current change queens work now, but from what I've seen it is definitely a step in the right direction. - Queen evolution: If you are going to use bw units for Terran you need the bw queen. Perhaps after vipers nest the queen can evolve into the bw queen? Queens in bw have become a fundamental part of dealing with large mech deathballs from terran (plus ensnare is f*cking awesome, not to mention infested command center!). Using broodlings in combination with the cloning technique on queens was quite literally the only way a good zerg player could come back from a T player getting a crazy mech deathball. While this event was/is rare why get rid of it? - Lurkers: (f*ck yes!) I don't know if it' just me or not, but does the attack animation for lurkers seem way to slow? Not the time between attacks, but the time it takes for the spines to reach their target seems way off. - Zergling wings: Having an aesthetic change when speed was is cool and worth while. I know it's beta, but I hope this doesn't get looked over. Casters and players shouldn't have to look at zerglings to know they have speed. Terran: - Vulture micro: More improvement on micro. It's beta, and this is probably coming but please implement gliding upon stopping so proper move shot may be done. - Vultures planting mines: When laying mines they shouldn't just throw them down in front of the vulture, but rather plant the mine on the ground. - Spider mines: There are some obvious issues here, if at all possible please return them to how they were in bw. The fact that they re-positioned themselves as they scooted towards the enemy is a big part of this "unit". When a spidermine didn't go off in bw a good portion of the time it changed it's position. Anyone who has played bw knows what i'm talking about here so I don't feel to go into a whole lot of detail here. (That feeling of running a zergling through a mine field and having it be chased by a swarm of spider mines!) - Spider mine detonation: Once again something that is already being played with a ton, but as of right now they don't detonate fast enough. Seeing a field of mines being taken out goons is classic bw, but if the protoss players timing was bad he/she paid for it. The spidermines detonate so slowly right now it's a bit ridiculous and if they aren't going to be changed back to the way they were in bw they absolutely need to detonate sooner. - Chrono boost on OC(in Starbow): No idea what it's called, but that's what it is let's be honest, I'm sure a billion other people have said it. I don't have a problem with this being on terran rather than toss, but having it be on both races is silly. Unless it somehow applied differently for toss than terran. My thoughts would be to get rid of the reactor and just use this mechanic. Then make chronoboost for toss only apply to warpgates (decreasing the CD of warpgates, as in sc2, and decreasing the amount of time it takes to warp x unit in). This way toss will have an assortment of gateway builds with more an assortment of warpgate build timings. - Marauder: This is one of the most terrible units blizzard added next to the colossus and infestor/swarm host garbage. It's nothing more than a boring marine. From what I've seen it hasn't been changed in the least from it's sc2 counterpart aside from the skin. To me this unit has no place in starcraft, it's a sad excuse for a unit and really shouldn't be in starbow. -The reactor and tech-lab: The reactor was blizzard attempt to keep up with Z and P production among many other things they added to terran. I don't see a reason for it especially if the OC is given a chronoboost like ability. This just mucks up mech and bio. I think reintroducing the academy is a much better idea than having all upgrades stem from techlabs. That said I think techlabs are fine staying on the starport and the factory. If you are going mech you should commit to mech vice versa bio. T players shouldn't be able to to just switch around building and all the sudden have a new unit composition of and access to all the upgrades of of a completely different tech route with the same building. Blizzard just felt like turning terran into zerg, rather than the heavy-loaded, hold the line race that T was originally. - Wraith: Lets all say a few words for the wraith. You were a good unit. Had energy for cloak, rather than a short cool down, extreme micro potential, and attacked land and air. Though some said you were made out of paper, I always thought you were made t3 ship plating. Seriously though I can't be the only one who thinks it's stupid that the viking and the banshee are in starbow (essentially lesser, more boring versions of the wraith/valkery). Maybe make a valkery that can transform or something (haven't even seen vikings used so if they are like this my apologies). Protoss: - Zealots: As I understand it they have bw stats, but attack how they attack in sc2. A s long as it doesn't change how the zealot is balanced I'm fine with it, but I have a feeling that it actually does. Can anyone clear this up for me? I know for a fact that how you micro against zealots is much different. - Templar: I don't know how warping in templar with (warpgate) works currently, but I always thought taking away kadhari amulet was silly. A simply solution for this to me, would be to have the templar (if warped in through warpgate) warp in with 50 energy (obviously could be tweaked). The warpgate having a long CD, so it's not like it's going efficient for spamming units. - Pylon warp-in: Using pylons as a warp-in feels cheap. It's practically a form of cheese for toss to be hiding a building somewhere on the map that is game ending, no wait it is cheese... I played zerg in WoL before I quit and nothing was more tedious and stupid than sending lings to check EVERY CORNER of the galaxy for a pylon/probe because if i didn't i'd out right lose. It would make sense if it's not this way already, that the warp prism is the only way to warp in units. Maybe make the cool down relatively moderate, but leave it on templar archive. Warp-in could have been a good niche mechanic if done right, but blizzard insisted on making it not only standard, but required in every build. - Arbiter: The stasis just looks funny, and showing the timer until it's down to either player seems like a bit much. We don't have timers underneath darkswarm until it goes away. Players want information, but it's the limitations that are set on a player and how they are able to cope with them that makes for an interesting spectator sport as well as fun game play. Maybe only show duration of spells for the observer (could be how it is now I've only watched Vods/streams. (Could also say the same thing about the burrow/time of attack for spidermines.) - Chronoboost: I already suggested something previously, but for the love of god give toss something that is less general and boring. If chronoboost was just for warpgates and nexuses, AND had a different time reduction for each that would be more interesting than it is in sc2. Instead of the flat rate increase that it is in sc2, which is just so general it's boring. For those of you who actually read everything I wrote thank you. This was just me throwing my two cents out there; I don't intend to debate any of my suggestions with anyone (though I will read all responses and critiques in response to what I wrote as I am keeping close tabs on this forum topic.) This was just me more or less brain dumping as I've had this stuff in my head since I heard of starbow (basically 2 days ago). If any of this gets read that will be good enough for me as I never post. Sc2 WoL was a big let down for me and I quit around the time infestors got popular and went back to bw to see if things would get better. Instead it spiraled so far downward and the meta became so stale for me that I couldn't watch sc2 anymore. I played Hots beta until it was about half way done and quit because the game had not changed. The core mechanics and meta of the game were still there and still just as bland as WoL for me. It's really cool what you're doing, but it's also kind of annoying that the "COMBINATION SC2 SC:BW" is being pushed so hard. Sc2 has good features, but more good "half features" that could make for interesting game play if blizzard wasn't so against changing the core of their game. This mod has gutted sc2 and taken many of the half features and made them better, but still not good. The fear I have for this mod is it just being "the new thing" and then being pushed to the back because players get bored. The die hard sc2 fan will pick sc2 ladder over this mod if most people are still playing sc2 ladder. If is relatively successful but doesn't take over sc2 competitive play (by being just a good game), then it just does starcraft a disfavor by splitting the community further between starbow players, sc2 player and sc:bw players. Thanks for reading glhf! | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
No need to make this a carbon copy of BW including the cripped UI just because its inspired by it. | ||
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ETisME
12390 Posts
On January 15 2014 13:01 Bagi wrote: ^Yeah, lets not. No need to make this a carbon copy of BW including the cripped UI just because its inspired by it. that's the biggest problem with this mod. the units and strategy etc are all balanced by the crippled UI, if you take that away, the game will have issues. The Protoss for starbow for example, lots of goons just like BW, but the goons are smarter, without limit unit control group and the AI, you are giving protoss a lot of a move unit that makes up almost most of their army composition for a long time in the game. | ||
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