EPTIt does need to be simplified somewhat in my opinion. A couple of units and a lot of upgrades could easily be cut to help make the game less of an information overload.
Starbow - Page 37
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HystericaLaughter
Australia720 Posts
It does need to be simplified somewhat in my opinion. A couple of units and a lot of upgrades could easily be cut to help make the game less of an information overload. | ||
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GTPGlitch
5061 Posts
Otherwise a lot of fun :D | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7028 Posts
On January 15 2014 07:05 Nerevar wrote: My main worry for this mod is the possibility that matchups will end up playing out like carbon copies of their BW counterparts. While this isn't necessarily too bad a thing considering the BW matchups were very entertaining, I think it would still be a shame since it misses out on a lot of potential, such as exploring other tactics and unit compositions that simply weren't viable in BW. I want to see stuff like more bio usage in TvP and TvT as well as more Protoss air usage in all matchups. Fortunately, much is still in flux and development for Starbow, unlike BW itself which has had its balance and design more or less locked since its last balance patch over a decade ago. It's expected that most players will initially be relying on strategies based on what they're familiar and comfortable with from BW. I haven't seen enough games to form a completely solid opinion on the mod otherwise, though I expect a lot to change as more players of increasing skill put more hours into the mod and develop its meta, not to mention all the possible big design or balance changes that might happen in the future. Obviously, there are still some minor polish elements that still need tweaking, such as graphics and bugs. I think it's more of a danger in terms of the design. If people prefer Brood War strategies, then the devs might be tempted to make unused units overly strong, while they really should be waiting for the meta to develop. | ||
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makmeatt
2024 Posts
Nevermind, everyone did. Well done Kabel! | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On January 15 2014 07:57 HystericaLaughter wrote: I like the mod a lot, and I never played BW. The hype is really good as well as it seems to be encouraging a lot of people to log onto SC2 again. It does need to be simplified somewhat in my opinion. A couple of units and a lot of upgrades could easily be cut to help make the game less of an information overload. Upgrades totally agreed, theres a lot of streamlining to be done there. Not every unit needs a gimmick or upgrade that alters its timing. I hope they dont removing units though, because SC2 units are the most likely ones to go and then we'll just be playing a slightly altered SC2BW. | ||
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HystericaLaughter
Australia720 Posts
On January 15 2014 08:44 Bagi wrote: Upgrades totally agreed, theres a lot of streamlining to be done there. Not every unit needs a gimmick or upgrade that alters its timing. I hope they dont removing units though, because SC2 units are the most likely ones to go and then we'll just be playing a slightly altered SC2BW. Eh maybe. I think the Corsair can be replaced with the Phoenix, and the Scout can just be removed altogether. Terran probably don't need Vikings either, because two of the obnoxious units that required the Viking as a counter - Colossus and Brood Lords - are gone. Zerg just has way too much going on. They have a whole lot of units that mutate into this or that and the race is in my opinion overly complex. Zergling -> Baneling Hydra -> Lurker Muta -> Guardian/Devourer All of these requiring unique structures and the plethora of upgrades that follow. Cutting down on this and dropping one of the spellcasters I think is the way to go. So those are a few unit cuts I would consider, there's a selection of units from both games there. | ||
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CannonsNCarriers
United States638 Posts
On January 15 2014 09:28 HystericaLaughter wrote: Eh maybe. I think the Corsair can be replaced with the Phoenix, and the Scout can just be removed altogether. Terran probably don't need Vikings either, because two of the obnoxious units that required the Viking as a counter - Colossus and Brood Lords - are gone. Zerg just has way too much going on. They have a whole lot of units that mutate into this or that and the race is in my opinion overly complex. Zergling -> Baneling Hydra -> Lurker Muta -> Guardian/Devourer All of these requiring unique structures and the plethora of upgrades that follow. Cutting down on this and dropping one of the spellcasters I think is the way to go. So those are a few unit cuts I would consider, there's a selection of units from both games there. I wouldn't equate the Viking with the Scout. Toss has 4 air units that shoot in at least a semi-serious manner: Corsair, Scout, Sentinel, Carrier Terran has 3 air units that shoot: Viking, Banshee, BC Toss can lose the scout and have Cosair as AA, Sentinel as AG harass, and Carrier as AA/AG assault. If Terran loses Viking, they have no pure AA and have to rely on BC as their Air-to-Air platform. Furthermore, the Scout has serious balance issues. Its active missile is ridiculous against BC/SciVessel. | ||
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coolman123123
146 Posts
I don't like the removal of the speed bonus on creep. The Zerg race as a whole feels too slow and I like the fast-paced "swarm" in SC2. Mutas also seem a bit too slow and their pathing seems a bit awkward (I haven't played Zerg, but as a spectator Mutas look pretty weird). Lurkers are also a pretty boring unit. They just don't seem as powerful or exciting as they did in BW. I feel medivacs should be in the game instead of medic and dropship. Increases potential of bio by quite a bit. Obviously some balance changes would be needed to make this happen, but removing the medivac just seems like a step backwards. Overall, I feel the design philosophy is a bit too conservative in terms of preserving BW and not taking chances. Perhaps that was the original intent of this mod, but it has outgrown that role by quite a bit it seems. I would like to see some changes to BW units, especially the ones that just don't work as well in SC2, like the Lurker. | ||
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rename
Estonia329 Posts
I kind of feel that all this talk about streamlining comes from the games where there is just lots of redundant stuff - if every unit, upgrade and "gimmick" actually changes the game for the better - then its ok. To remove stuff just because "its feels complex" is dumbing down, not streamlining. | ||
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GizmoPT
Portugal3040 Posts
On January 15 2014 09:43 rename wrote: This talk of "complexity" really makes me wonder how can people handle league/dota2 - the amount of stuff in the shops there is insane compared to amount of upgrades or "gimmicks" in starbow. I kind of feel that all this talk about streamlining comes from the games where there is just lots of redundant stuff - if every unit, upgrade and "gimmick" actually changes the game for the better - then its ok. To remove stuff just because "its feels complex" is dumbing down, not streamlining. they just go to a wiki and see what items they have to buy for the hero they play.. | ||
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superpanda27
111 Posts
On January 15 2014 09:28 HystericaLaughter wrote: Eh maybe. I think the Corsair can be replaced with the Phoenix, and the Scout can just be removed altogether. Terran probably don't need Vikings either, because two of the obnoxious units that required the Viking as a counter - Colossus and Brood Lords - are gone. Zerg just has way too much going on. They have a whole lot of units that mutate into this or that and the race is in my opinion overly complex. Zergling -> Baneling Hydra -> Lurker Muta -> Guardian/Devourer All of these requiring unique structures and the plethora of upgrades that follow. Cutting down on this and dropping one of the spellcasters I think is the way to go. So those are a few unit cuts I would consider, there's a selection of units from both games there. Put in phoenixes, scourges are no longer as viable against Protoss air in Starbow. The way they can just auto-attack on the move pretty muchs negates scourges. I don't know if you played Starbow or not, but the viking of SB is different than the SC2 version in that it is kind of akin to the Valkyrie of Brood War. The point you make about the zerg, I can't agree with at all. I mean the units requiring an extra level of structure. Between this and SC2, you are literally morphing one extra structure to get this unit and that is the lurker. In order to get the T3 Zerg air unit, the Broodlord, you still needed to morph a spire into a greater spire. And in order to get banelings, you needed a baneling nest. I can somewhat agree on the amount of upgrades needs to be lessened and a little more streamlined though. | ||
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Yergidy
United States2107 Posts
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iHirO
United Kingdom1381 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MGRNyfG.png) | ||
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HystericaLaughter
Australia720 Posts
On January 15 2014 09:43 rename wrote: This talk of "complexity" really makes me wonder how can people handle league/dota2 - the amount of stuff in the shops there is insane compared to amount of upgrades or "gimmicks" in starbow. I kind of feel that all this talk about streamlining comes from the games where there is just lots of redundant stuff - if every unit, upgrade and "gimmick" actually changes the game for the better - then its ok. To remove stuff just because "its feels complex" is dumbing down, not streamlining. I disagree. 'Dumbing down' involves removing depth not complexity. To dumb a game down implies that players don't need to think about what they are doing, just execute a strategy mechanically. However, it is possible to have really interesting interactions between unit compositions and provoke cool decision making without adding more and more stuff to the game. Do you really think most of the spellcasters having energy upgrades and needing to research half their spells changes the game for the better? I don't. I kind of feel that all this talk about streamlining comes from the games where there is just lots of redundant stuff The reason you get that impression is because this mod is a game where there is lots of redundant stuff. A game can be deep AND simple, it's very possible and a game benefits from having both of those characteristics. Watch this excellent (and short) video that will give you a better explanation on the difference between depth and complexity than I can give you. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On January 15 2014 09:43 rename wrote: This talk of "complexity" really makes me wonder how can people handle league/dota2 - the amount of stuff in the shops there is insane compared to amount of upgrades or "gimmicks" in starbow. I kind of feel that all this talk about streamlining comes from the games where there is just lots of redundant stuff - if every unit, upgrade and "gimmick" actually changes the game for the better - then its ok. To remove stuff just because "its feels complex" is dumbing down, not streamlining. I don't play MOBA but I would say its compensated by the fact that you only focus on maximizing the abilities of 1 hero instead of a 200 supply army of different units you are creating, controlling and upgrading. Apples and oranges anyway. I'm just of the opinion that there are enough factors and variables in an RTS without attaching a gimmick to every unit on top of it. Adding a weird ability or upgrade is just forced complexity that could be achieved in much cleaner ways by just designing the core units well in the first place. But I really don't wanna get into the "streamlining is dumbing down" argument. | ||
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HystericaLaughter
Australia720 Posts
On January 15 2014 09:57 Bagi wrote: I don't play MOBA but I would say its compensated by the fact that you only focus on maximizing the abilities of 1 hero instead of a 200 supply army of different units you are creating, controlling and upgrading. Apples and oranges anyway. I'm just of the opinion that there are enough factors and variables in an RTS without attaching a gimmick to every unit on top of it. Adding a weird ability or upgrade is just forced complexity that could be achieved in much cleaner ways by just designing the core units well in the first place. But I really don't wanna get into the "streamlining is dumbing down" argument. Read my post above yours for the 'streamlining is dumbing down' argument. And watch the video too! | ||
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onetrickponyy
6 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
looks great, felt a touch of BW in this, I hope it can find some competitive ground. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On January 15 2014 09:28 HystericaLaughter wrote: Eh maybe. I think the Corsair can be replaced with the Phoenix, and the Scout can just be removed altogether. Terran probably don't need Vikings either, because two of the obnoxious units that required the Viking as a counter - Colossus and Brood Lords - are gone. Zerg just has way too much going on. They have a whole lot of units that mutate into this or that and the race is in my opinion overly complex. Zergling -> Baneling Hydra -> Lurker Muta -> Guardian/Devourer All of these requiring unique structures and the plethora of upgrades that follow. Cutting down on this and dropping one of the spellcasters I think is the way to go. So those are a few unit cuts I would consider, there's a selection of units from both games there. I don't know what the difference is between the corsair in this compared to BW... but The corsair was one of the most important units in the Protoss arsenal. It took almost a decade for people to figure out that the corsair was actually the best PvZ unit in the game. So while it may seem not so useful at first, trust me that you will eventually curse the removal of the corsair in SC2 till the day you die. Its not overpowered, but corsair micro was absolutely crucial in PvZ. You needed it for scouting bases and tech, keeping zerg overlords under control, and maintaining Air Control. Without this PvZ almost felt like a dice roll, only that the odds were significantly in the favor of Zerg. The Phoenix can't fulfill this roll as it is slower and does not do splash damage. Therefore after a certain point in the game the Stargate becomes wasted tech, you also can't just build 1 Stargate and pump continuously, you need burst production. It was common to see a ctrl group of corsairs flying around all game, built from 1 stargate. Even though it took up supply in your army, the scouting information and air control was so important that it was worth it. Its also not easy to do, most D players will simply lose all their corsairs to a bunch of scourge and muta with a small distraction. Even some progamers didn't do the Bisu build because they had trouble multitasking their corsairs. Most importantly though its heaps of fun to use and to learn how to do, and really cool to watch. Without corsairs you are forced into this allinish deathball play because you don't have air control or scouting, corsairs allow you to do longer guerilla style plays. | ||
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