Starbow - Page 39

avilo

United States4100 Posts

January 15 2014 04:09 GMT

#761

On January 15 2014 12:51 Xiphos wrote:
They have to remove Autocast.

Why? It's awesome that starbow is not purposely trying to dumb down the AI to make it like brood war "just because."
It's fine if those things are autocast imo, don't jump the gun on such things. The nice thing about this mod is it's really similar to the brood war metagame but has the SC2 user interface and mechanics.

Xiphos

Canada7507 Posts

January 15 2014 04:15 GMT

#762

On January 15 2014 13:09 avilo wrote:

Show nested quote +

I'm fine w/ Automine, MBS, and Unlimited Unit Hotkey but just not Autocast. Not having autocast creates more intense moments.

Bagi

Germany6799 Posts

January 15 2014 04:18 GMT

#763

On January 15 2014 13:07 ETisME wrote:

Show nested quote +

that's the biggest problem with this mod.
the units and strategy etc are all balanced by the crippled UI, if you take that away, the game will have issues.
The Protoss for starbow for example, lots of goons just like BW, but the goons are smarter, without limit unit control group and the AI, you are giving protoss a lot of a move unit that makes up almost most of their army composition for a long time in the game.

Then the obvious solution would be to nerf goons and buff other units to encourage diversity.

Besides even if goons are really common they still feel very microable and theres a lot of action involving them all over the map, so it doesnt worry me too much.

RogerChillingworth

2855 Posts

January 15 2014 04:27 GMT

#764

can people pleeeease just shut up about balance for 5 minutes and play the game? This isn't sc2. There's no ranked system or ladder yet. The majority of testimonies have it that it's a more fun game than sc2. Can we just enjoy that for a second?

Beef Noodles

United States937 Posts

January 15 2014 04:29 GMT

#765

On January 15 2014 12:57 Koxxypoxxy wrote:

*Mechanical changes/improvements:
- tweak unit supply costs: Still doesn't feel like a 200/200 army is a large army. I don't know what everything costs at the moment see, but armies still seem rather small. Though this could just be the still death ball appearance of armies as they move.Bringing me to my next point.

I just want to point out yet another player that thinks 200/200 feels too small (in this case he is advocating changing the supply costs of the units, but I think it's better to change the supply cap so that the early and mid games aren't drastically affected). And I again want to state that high level players like LaLush feel this way as well.

200/200 not only feels small, but I think with the added macro-mechanics (compared to brood war which had none), you can max out pretty darn quickly, which in my opinion limits gameplay.

I know it feels like maxing out is slow in Starbow, but that's only because in SC2, you max out in 15 minutes... Very rarely in professional Brood War would players ever max out, and it made the game more exciting (I can go into why in a later post if anyone doesn't understand how maxing out limits gameplay).

I think larger pop caps should at least be experimented.

FromShouri

United States862 Posts

January 15 2014 04:30 GMT

#766

On January 15 2014 13:27 RogerChillingworth wrote:
can people pleeeease just shut up about balance for 5 minutes and play the game? This isn't sc2. There's no ranked system or ladder yet. The majority of testimonies have it that it's a more fun game than sc2. Can we just enjoy that for a second?

course not, people are gonna say what ever beats them is OP. but it all comes down to strategy/macro. Im having a blast, for example I just played a TvT where it came down to my ability to replenish my troops versus my opponents ability to kill them because he had 1 mining base and I had 3. We were using siege tanks, goliaths, vultures, cattle brusiers, vikings, marines, and scvs. Just slugging it out and playing the position game while I would harass his expansions and he'd harass mine.

In the end I won because I just ended up being able to get units out of my factories since I stopped him inches from my production line. I've never played a game of TvT like that in SC2, its all bio crap, with mech popular for a while, but mostly bio.

On January 15 2014 13:29 Beef Noodles wrote:

Show nested quote +

If left alone most pros could easily max in 12-13 minutes, that is specifically why they are always out constantly harassing so they can slow the other player down while macroing their own army up. Iunno, I didn't feel like my armies were small. and I have been maxing out at least once at least every third game.

Beef Noodles

United States937 Posts

January 15 2014 04:33 GMT

#767

On January 15 2014 13:15 Xiphos wrote:

Show nested quote +

I'm fine w/ Automine, MBS, and Unlimited Unit Hotkey but just not Autocast. Not having autocast creates more intense moments.

I agree, from a spectating perspective no auto-cast makes you really stare in awe when a pro casts prefect storms or dark swarms. But from a players perspective, it definitely is easier and less stressful to keep auto-casting in. I don't know which way I perfer

Doominator10

United States515 Posts

January 15 2014 04:36 GMT

#768

On January 15 2014 12:57 Koxxypoxxy wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

Some thoughts on the beta as I've been watching it constantly. For a beta it looks great, and it's really nice to get what was good about star-craft back, but I personally feel like more sc:bw mechanics should be implemented. As I watch more games of starbow I see similar things that just made sc2 feel gross.
Many of the changes I am suggesting are because I prefer bw to sc2, which I can acknowledge other people do not.I still play bw to this day and regularly. My suggestions for mechanical changes to the mod are rather biased towards bw, but I'd at least like to bring up the conversation. Big ass wall of text inbound...

Thanks for posting your thoughts :D And thanks for being somewhat detailed in your thoughts. I'll just throw my cents in as response. I also don't think it's worth debating, but I can respect a differing viewpoint.

+ Show Spoiler +

*Mechanical changes/improvements:
- tweak unit supply costs: Still doesn't feel like a 200/200 army is a large army. I don't know what everything costs at the moment see, but armies still seem rather small. Though this could just be the still death ball appearance of armies as they move.Bringing me to my next point.

I dunno, It feels like a 200/200 starbow army is A TON bigger in SC2. Units generally cost more supply, take up less space per unit, but also spread out more. I'm not sure what your vision is here, but I still think it's better than SC2.

+ Show Spoiler +

- Unit pathing: I don't know how everyone else feels about this, but units STILL ball up too much. Unit pathing alone kept people from mindlessly moving their army about the map wherever they thought a threat present. It would be great if the magic box that was in broodwar (concerning all units, not just muta) was back in the game so a group of units would maintain formation if ordered to move within a certain distance of the box.

- Unit pathing: Once units reach an ordered destination they spread themselves out rather awkwardly, as in how the ai goes about doing it is odd. I don't have a specific video example, but it can be plainly seen watching any stream/vod of starbow that is currently out. The movement is independent of the the unit; when units start to clump up they inherently spread apart after reaching a destination. Movement that isn't ordered by the player in my opinion is generally bad, especially when it's not immediate. What i mean by this is the ai only does this if an order hasn't been given in what appears to be 5-10 seconds.

+ Show Spoiler +

- Enemy Health Bars: I think disabling players ability to see there opponents units health bar any other way than clicking on that unit is actually a good thing. It's just another thing that separates bad players from the good and good from the best. Having, one: the ability in the heat of battle to remember what units are injured and focus them down, and two having the apm to check the health of the enemy unit if you do not know. These are important things in BW that have pretty much just been glossed aside in sc2 for convenience, rather than to create good and quite frankly interesting game play.

Meh, I disagree. Generally I like having easily visible information. Really I think healthbars could be visually reworked to make them look less clutter-ry, but I think that's more aesthetic than crucial.

+ Show Spoiler +

- Gliding: I feel as though this is an up coming feature, if not i'd really like to see it in the game. Lalush made an amazing video regarding the important of acceleration and deceleration in flying and gliding units.

The team to my knowledge spent A LOT of time trying to work with the editor to get these things right. Sadly, SC2 Engine is SC2 Engine, not SC1 :[

+ Show Spoiler +

- limited unit selection: yes that's right. Why? Other than adding more skill to the game (making it obviously more enjoyable to watch) it makes groups of units more deadly. The harder it is to control a larger army, the more effective smaller groups will be. Conversely a player who has a larger army and is capable of controlling it well is then rewarded for doing so.

- Remove smart casting: Get rid of it! (It's absolutely terrible with bw spells especially). It takes the skill of landing a spell. While of course there is skill in landing spells in sc2, the impact of those spells is diminished: One, due to what I have said before about skill, and two, the amount of casters we see on the field. People are literally massing defilers like infesters and spamming dark swarm about. While of course it is an inferior style of play to have 5+ defilers, due to cost/supply it's not something that is just going to go away. Players will continue still continue to build unreasonable numbers of spell casters within their army. Power spells are literally what allowed players to make amazing comebacks and plays in bw, smart casting completely nullifies this. Too many times have I heard "amazing forcefields" or "amazing fungals" from casters on sc2 just to roll my eyes and say to myself "it's not that hard to do, nor that impressive.

- Limited building selection vs. multibuilding selection: This is something that I personal have been back and forth on. To me limited building selection made bw more interesting. It added something else to work on, and improve. The macro mechanics of sc2 for me personally were/are a hallow attempt at filling in the loss of skill required to be good at macro.

There is already a debate of this between whether or not these actually add more skill, or just make it unnecessarily harder for players. I'm on the latter, you appear to be on the former end. That's cool, everyone entitled to their opinions.

+ Show Spoiler +

- Macro Mechanics: Concerning queens, chronoboost and the oribital command abilities. I really like what has been done, but i can't help but feel it's half way done (excluding the fact it's beta). Originally this was blizzards way to basically add filler to the game because they realized that with all features they added, they ended up making sc2 too mechanically easy. Rather than just being a filler in starbow, they should actually being viable OPTIONS. Key word being options of course. In sc2 you always build a queen no matter what forever and always, same goes for the orbital command and chronoboost is obviously always used. Attaching scan to the orbital just made the orbital that much better. It became a requirement for each of these mechanics to be used rather than a selective bonus. In starbow it would make it especially interesting if this was so. So say you only make a queen when you need extra defense or require the injects for a specific timing build. The OC will always be necessary as long as scan is attached, (not saying detach scan) but allowing for multiple timings for the OC to come in would be nice. In Sc2 it's more or less build OC asap, and deviations for first OC timing are few, on top of that there is no reason to not immediately turn a CC into an OC upon CC completion.

You actually talk more about SC2 here than SBow, and I tend to agree. Please realize that it's actually not always optimal to get OCs, Chronoboost, and queens as fast as possible in SBow. They are expensive and can really set you behind an opponent who spends that money on extra units early (though the queens are useful for defense, sometimes a spine might be better). So Hurray, you and SBow seem to agree on this one (party!)

+ Show Spoiler +

- Auto-surround: Just to talk about it as I've never seen brought up before. It's a bit annoying to have (usually with zlings) zerglings run around the target aimlessly because it is surrounded by the maximum #. This to me interferes with micro, as I know really have to battle the AI to grab the extra zlings that are continuously fleeing my mouse without taking off the zerglings that are attacking x unit. In bw the zerglings would more or less just stand there as the ai tried to get closer to enemy unit. This made it much easier to put zerglings and melee units in general where they needed to be, as they weren't running around like chickens with their heads chopped off. (

- Worker rally: This is by far the least important on my list and I'm guessing many others. For me this could stay or go and I'd be indifferent. It's a cool feature to me because APM must be used to insure/secure an increase in income (ie: the worker is essentially dead weight until the player has told it to mine minerals/gas). Disabling worker rally adds more depth to macroing and more skill to the game.

Again to the previous debate still going on, every1 is entitled to different opinions. I don't want perfect surround every time, but I don't want them to be so dumb that they don't do what I tell them to.

+ Show Spoiler +

Adding more skill to the game is a part of why these changes seem just to me, but also due to the fact that it made the game that much more rewarding when it was done perfectly (or at least near perfectly). It was fun to watch because of how people such as jaedong and flash were able to overcome these and many other limitations in bw. The beauty of starcraft never lie in the strategy portion of the game for me personally (we have Supcom:FA for that), but the execution of the strategy. That said, lets talk about Starbow units!

Zerg:
- Defiler is too big: Just that, i don't think there is anymore to say about it.

Agreed

- Defiler dark swarm: It's kinda hard to see right now (yes I have terrible eye sight). I was just watching streams and desert maps it and such. Making it darker would be cool.

Fixed I think

-Roach: I love the changes for the roach but I think if researching burrow and burrow move should do fundamentally different things and burrow move should not require burrow. Currently the roaches move too fast while burrow moving, but I love the idea of a short timer in which they can be burrowed. I think researching burrow should, for the roach specifically cause it to heal quickly like it does in sc2 (only when burrowed and not moving). To me this makes sense, as it's terribly hard to recover from wounds while you are moving around! Possibly have 2-3 hotkeys on the roach for burrow move, unburrow while moving, and regular burrow. If implemented, being able to seamlessly transition from being regular stationary burrow to burrow move would introduce a great new aspect of micro.

Would be nice to have "Tunnel" and "Burrow" made more distinguished, I don't like your idea exactly, but I like the gist of it. +0.5

- Nydus canal: Bring it back or put in the nydus worm (if it's already in i feel silly). I personally thought would be cool is if the nydus worm from sc2 cost as much as a nydus canal from bw when built on creep. if built off creep it is more expensive etc etc. Either way zerg need some version of this building to come back (if it's not already there).

Play the game

-Queen: It would be nice if the queen filled a more niche role. You might be thinking doesn't it now already? No. In sc2 you are required to build a queen. It might as well be a building honestly. It would be nice to see people making a strategic choice as to when they build queens. That way the building of a queen will more or less tie into and or sprinkle into builds. I don't know how with the current change queens work now, but from what I've seen it is definitely a step in the right direction.

Refer to earlier

- Queen evolution: If you are going to use bw units for Terran you need the bw queen. Perhaps after vipers nest the queen can evolve into the bw queen? Queens in bw have become a fundamental part of dealing with large mech deathballs from terran (plus ensnare is f*cking awesome, not to mention infested command center!). Using broodlings in combination with the cloning technique on queens was quite literally the only way a good zerg player could come back from a T player getting a crazy mech deathball. While this event was/is rare why get rid of it?

Vipers = cooler than SC1 Queen. (At least I think so). While there is no replacement for infested command centers (lol?), abduct is very similar to the broodling spell of single target removal (pull enemy into your army), but it has more utility too it (pull your own units from danger / pull dropships etc). Vipers have Ensnare, needs a firing speed buff.

- Lurkers: (f*ck yes!) I don't know if it' just me or not, but does the attack animation for lurkers seem way to slow? Not the time between attacks, but the time it takes for the spines to reach their target seems way off.

Idk

- Zergling wings: Having an aesthetic change when speed was is cool and worth while. I know it's beta, but I hope this doesn't get looked over. Casters and players shouldn't have to look at zerglings to know they have speed.

Really now?

Terran:
- Vulture micro: More improvement on micro. It's beta, and this is probably coming but please implement gliding upon
stopping so proper move shot may be done.

There have been some issues in the editor to my understanding, One of the devs can tell you more about it.

- Vultures planting mines: When laying mines they shouldn't just throw them down in front of the vulture, but rather plant the mine on the ground.

Meh.

- Spider mines: There are some obvious issues here, if at all possible please return them to how they were in bw. The fact that they re-positioned themselves as they scooted towards the enemy is a big part of this "unit". When a spidermine didn't go off in bw a good portion of the time it changed it's position. Anyone who has played bw knows what i'm talking about
here so I don't feel to go into a whole lot of detail here. (That feeling of running a zergling through a mine field and having it be chased by a swarm of spider mines!)

- Spider mine detonation: Once again something that is already being played with a ton, but as of right now they don't detonate fast enough. Seeing a field of mines being taken out goons is classic bw, but if the protoss players timing was bad he/she paid for it. The spidermines detonate so slowly right now it's a bit ridiculous and if they aren't going to be changed back to the way they were in bw they absolutely need to detonate sooner.

They do seem a bit weak at the moment. You can actually target fire with the mines slightly past the trigger range though, so they might be even stronger than in BW. Time will tell

- Chrono boost on OC(in Starbow): No idea what it's called, but that's what it is let's be honest, I'm sure a billion other people have said it. I don't have a problem with this being on terran rather than toss, but having it be on both races is silly. Unless it somehow applied differently for toss than terran. My thoughts would be to get rid of the reactor and just use this mechanic. Then make chronoboost for toss only apply to warpgates (decreasing the CD of warpgates, as in sc2, and decreasing the amount of time it takes to warp x unit in). This way toss will have an assortment of gateway builds with more an assortment of warpgate build timings.

Interesting. I'm not a fan, but its an interesting idea.

- Marauder: This is one of the most terrible units blizzard added next to the colossus and infestor/swarm host garbage. It's nothing more than a boring marine. From what I've seen it hasn't been changed in the least from it's sc2 counterpart aside from the skin. To me this unit has no place in starcraft, it's a sad excuse for a unit and really shouldn't be in starbow.

Marauder vs Marine: It takes 2 reaver shots and 3-4 lurker shots to kill vs 1 reaver shot and 2-3 lurker shots to kill. That's already a ridiculous wtf huge difference, never mind the other stats. It is very similar yes, but it has been tested in and out of StarBow for years. So far, this is the best iteration of it.

+ Show Spoiler +

-The reactor and tech-lab: The reactor was blizzard attempt to keep up with Z and P production among many other things they added to terran. I don't see a reason for it especially if the OC is given a chronoboost like ability. This just mucks up mech and bio. I think reintroducing the academy is a much better idea than having all upgrades stem from techlabs. That said I think techlabs are fine staying on the starport and the factory. If you are going mech you should commit to mech vice versa bio. T players shouldn't be able to to just switch around building and all the sudden have a new unit composition of and access to all the upgrades of of a completely different tech route with the same building. Blizzard just felt like turning terran into zerg, rather than the heavy-loaded, hold the line race that T was originally.

- Wraith: Lets all say a few words for the wraith. You were a good unit. Had energy for cloak, rather than a short cool down, extreme micro potential, and attacked land and air. Though some said you were made out of paper, I always thought you were made t3 ship plating. Seriously though I can't be the only one who thinks it's stupid that the viking and the banshee are in starbow (essentially lesser, more boring versions of the wraith/valkery). Maybe make a valkery that can transform or something (haven't even seen vikings used so if they are like this my apologies).

You should play with them some more, I'd say they are really fun Wraiths used to be in SBow, that was patched out a few months ago (correct me if I'm wrong some1)

Protoss:

+ Show Spoiler +

- Zealots: As I understand it they have bw stats, but attack how they attack in sc2. A s long as it doesn't change how the zealot is balanced I'm fine with it, but I have a feeling that it actually does. Can anyone clear this up for me? I know for a fact that how you micro against zealots is much different.

- Templar: I don't know how warping in templar with (warpgate) works currently, but I always thought taking away kadhari amulet was silly. A simply solution for this to me, would be to have the templar (if warped in through warpgate) warp in with 50 energy (obviously could be tweaked). The warpgate having a long CD, so it's not like it's going efficient for spamming units.

All the energy upgrades give units extra energy regen, No different from High Templar, I think you were mis-informed here

- Pylon warp-in: Using pylons as a warp-in feels cheap. It's practically a form of cheese for toss to be hiding a building somewhere on the map that is game ending, no wait it is cheese... I played zerg in WoL before I quit and nothing was more tedious and stupid than sending lings to check EVERY CORNER of the galaxy for a pylon/probe because if i didn't i'd out right lose. It would make sense if it's not this way already, that the warp prism is the only way to warp in units. Maybe make the cool down relatively moderate, but leave it on templar archive. Warp-in could have been a good niche mechanic if done right, but blizzard insisted on making it not only standard, but required in every build.

Psst. Hey. Is that a pylon in your back yard? No really, go check. *Pulls out camera XD*

- Arbiter: The stasis just looks funny, and showing the timer until it's down to either player seems like a bit much. We don't have timers underneath darkswarm until it goes away. Players want information, but it's the limitations that are set on a player and how they are able to cope with them that makes for an interesting spectator sport as well as fun game play. Maybe only show duration of spells for the observer (could be how it is now I've only watched Vods/streams. (Could also say the same thing about the burrow/time of attack for spidermines.)

I'm actually all for putting a timer on Dark Swarm, but I just don't see where you could feasibly put it w/o making it look like a mess. Maybe if it slowly faded away over time instead of a timer?

+ Show Spoiler +

- Chronoboost: I already suggested something previously, but for the love of god give toss something that is less general and boring. If chronoboost was just for warpgates and nexuses, AND had a different time reduction for each that would be more interesting than it is in sc2. Instead of the flat rate increase that it is in sc2, which is just so general it's boring.

+ Show Spoiler +

For those of you who actually read everything I wrote thank you. This was just me throwing my two cents out there; I don't intend to debate any of my suggestions with anyone (though I will read all responses and critiques in response to what I wrote as I am keeping close tabs on this forum topic.) This was just me more or less brain dumping as I've had this stuff in my head since I heard of starbow (basically 2 days ago). If any of this gets read that will be good enough for me as I never post.

Thanks for being a baller lurker :D

+ Show Spoiler +

Sc2 WoL was a big let down for me and I quit around the time infestors got popular and went back to bw to see if things would get better. Instead it spiraled so far downward and the meta became so stale for me that I couldn't watch sc2 anymore. I played Hots beta until it was about half way done and quit because the game had not changed. The core mechanics and meta of the game were still there and still just as bland as WoL for me.
It's really cool what you're doing, but it's also kind of annoying that the "COMBINATION SC2 SC:BW" is being pushed so hard. Sc2 has good features, but more good "half features" that could make for interesting game play if blizzard wasn't so against changing the core of their game. This mod has gutted sc2 and taken many of the half features and made them better, but still not good. The fear I have for this mod is it just being "the new thing" and then being pushed to the back because players get bored. The die hard sc2 fan will pick sc2 ladder over this mod if most people are still playing sc2 ladder. If is relatively successful but doesn't take over sc2 competitive play (by being just a good game), then it just does starcraft a disfavor by splitting the community further between starbow players, sc2 player and sc:bw players.

This guy is friggin psychic and can see into the future :O O_o? Time will tell

Thanks for reading glhf!

EDIT: I actually have no idea if this is better or worse to read with the spoilers :[ Just trying something.

LaLuSh

Sweden2358 Posts

January 15 2014 04:36 GMT

#769

I'm not maxing out too much vs active and good players. Too early to say anything.

PvT is PvT. You're supposed to max out more often there.

Doominator10

United States515 Posts

January 15 2014 04:38 GMT

#770

On January 15 2014 13:33 Beef Noodles wrote:

Show nested quote +

The objective was to first make the game fun to play. I don't find dumb-casting to be very fun. I know which way I prefer

purakushi

United States3300 Posts

January 15 2014 04:42 GMT

#771

It would be interesting to see 200+ population, but people still play the game like SC2 at the moment. With active and good players, maxing out is fairly rare. Furthermore, the progression to max is much smoother.
Stop playing like SC2. You don't have to turtle. You can attack. In different spots. Control your units.

LaLuSh

Sweden2358 Posts

January 15 2014 04:46 GMT

#772

qxc beat me 3-0.

The last game was the most even and good: https://www.dropbox.com/s/v8rnv0deyo4uy5a/Starbow - Neo Tau Cross (5).SC2Replay

Need to use scourge more.

starithm

United States118 Posts

January 15 2014 05:00 GMT

#773

Defilers can't burrow because they don't have a burrow button. Please see the defiler UI below.

kaarotto

Colombia38 Posts

January 15 2014 05:22 GMT

#774

BUG REPORT AND WAY TO FIX IT
The ghost have tho nukes in the abilities card and the reaver have two move commands. This is denying people from setting hotkeys for those spells and the reaver one affects all the units so I'm sure more people reported it too. But here is the way to fixe it. Open the mod in the editor, go to the unit tab, look for the gost in the unit tab, remove the repeated spell in the abilities card selecting the spell, clicking the button with the minus and then do the same with the reaver. The reaver doesnt have patrol so you may add it. Them update the mod in the arcade.

edit: lol two bugs reports in two consecutives post I hope that both get seen ind fixed soon.

Ahli

Germany355 Posts

January 15 2014 05:54 GMT

#775

On January 15 2014 14:00 starithm wrote:
Defilers can't burrow because they don't have a burrow button. Please see the defiler UI below.

I've added that to my list. Thanks.

I'm currently fixing a ton of bugs that the developers didn't find or notice for some event tomorrow. (I'm doing that with their agreement in case someone is curious.)

On January 15 2014 14:22 kaarotto wrote:
BUG REPORT AND WAY TO FIX IT
The ghost have tho nukes in the abilities card and the reaver have two move commands. This is denying people from setting hotkeys for those spells and the reaver one affects all the units so I'm sure more people reported it too. But here is the way to fixe it. Open the mod in the editor, go to the unit tab, look for the gost in the unit tab, remove the repeated spell in the abilities card selecting the spell, clicking the button with the minus and then do the same with the reaver. The reaver doesnt have patrol so you may add it. Them update the mod in the arcade.

edit: lol two bugs reports in two consecutives post I hope that both get seen ind fixed soon.

Your fix suggestion doesn't work that way because, well, it's wrong. In the editor, it looks fine in the command card and the unit isn't even listing the abilities anymore. The game somehow connects data to display these. The question is: how is it creating that connection?

But I might try to fix them as I've fixed nearly all gameplay affecting bugs. Well, nearly, I just found another one: Ghost's Shock ability allows Roaches to be burrowed permanently.

Btw, Ghost has no EMP (Science Vessel has) and the bottom right Nuclear Strike is the one actually appearing on the unit, so try to use that one.

The reaver's patrol seems to have been fixed as it's appearing fine in the version of the mod I have in front of me (or it is a bug that only appears online).

Thanks for the reports. If you find more bugs, post them.

So, the mod should be updated within the next 11 hours with tons of bug fixes.

rift

1819 Posts

January 15 2014 05:55 GMT

#776

mech be slayin' zergs left and right

Xapti

Canada2473 Posts

January 15 2014 05:57 GMT

#777

On January 15 2014 11:20 SoleSteeler wrote:
Finally got around to playing a quick game vs. the AI.

Is there any change to the AI, or does it mostly/only just run the terrible strategies that blizzard programed into it for SC2 WoL? (never even gets HotS units in HotS)

Also larva inject seems like trash now. 65% faster larva production for 50% the cost of a hatchery... Why not just get another whole hatchery? It saves the huge hassle of microing queens every 19 seconds, with the added benefit of doubling the maximum larva count, as well as saving 4 crucial supply. Hatcheries also produce one supply, not that that's anything big at all (12 minerals)

Sure 65% is still theoretically better than 50%, and I'm not saying queens themselves couldn't be used for other things (misc support, creep tumor), but the way inject is now makes it seem nearly useless for economy.

I guess queens' main use would be for boosting morph times? it seems like a pretty good benefit.

On January 15 2014 12:57 Koxxypoxxy wrote:
Queen: It would be nice if the queen filled a more niche role. You might be thinking doesn't it now already? No. In sc2 you are required to build a queen. It might as well be a building honestly. It would be nice to see people making a strategic choice as to when they build queens. That way the building of a queen will more or less tie into and or sprinkle into builds. I don't know how with the current change queens work now, but from what I've seen it is definitely a step in the right direction.

Well I wouldn't say it would have much of a niche or use currently, but I would say it definitely seems quite optional now —theoretically speaking, not from practice.

Depending on the implementation it could cause big problems with the viper, but I would like it if queens could evolve and morph into flying queens with lair tech or something (cost depending on stats/abilities). I guess that's still an option just with different skills than they had in BW (maybe just like parasite and infest, while still keeping inject and heal).
While perhaps a bit expensive for a detector —especially a zerg one— making the zerg flying queen a replacement for the overseer would be great in my opinion; the parasite (or changeling) ability would allow scouting just like overseers, they'd be fast like overseers, and they'd detect like overseers. I guess if the flying queen had good health and lost it's ground queen traits, it wouldn't need to be expensive at all.

jcroisdale

United States1543 Posts

January 15 2014 06:25 GMT

#778

On January 15 2014 14:57 Xapti wrote:

Show nested quote +

Is there any change to the AI, or does it mostly/only just run the terrible strategies that blizzard programed into it for SC2 WoL? (never even gets HotS units in HotS)

Also larva inject seems like trash now. 65% faster larva production for 50% the cost of a hatchery... Why not just get another whole hatchery? It saves the huge hassle of microing queens every 19 seconds, with the added benefit of doubling the maximum larva count, as well as saving 2 crucial supply. Hatcheries also produce one supply, not that that's anything big at all (12 minerals)

Sure 65% is still theoretically better than 50%, and I'm not saying queens themselves couldn't be used for other things (misc support, creep tumor), but the way inject is now makes it seem nearly useless for economy.

I guess queens' main use would be for boosting morph times? it seems like a pretty good benefit.

I could be totally wrong here, but does the queen inject give the hatch extra larva in SB like sc2?