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Starbow - Page 26

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9448 Posts
January 13 2014 21:42 GMT
#501
A Vulture plants one at target location.
It takes ca 5 seconds before it burrows. (It can be killed during this time)
As soon as an enemy ground unit comes within range 3, the mine will unburrow.
The mine stands still for 1.9 seconds before it detonates.
When it detonates, it "transforms" into a missile and launches itself towards an enemy unit.
Upon impact, the missile deals 125 explosiove damage in an area. (100% vs armored and shields, 75% vs medium, 50% vs light)


Could you expand on these numbers compared to BW?
Bagi
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6799 Posts
January 13 2014 21:47 GMT
#502
Anyone else feel they went a bit overboard with all the upgrades? Maybe it just takes some getting used to but at the moment everything is so cluttered, some streamlining probably wouldn't hurt.
PredY
Profile Joined September 2009
Czech Republic1731 Posts
January 13 2014 21:53 GMT
#503
spider mines need to burrow and detonate quicker (especially burrow) otherwise good job
http://www.twitch.tv/czelpredy
RampancyTW
Profile Joined August 2010
United States577 Posts
January 13 2014 21:55 GMT
#504
On January 14 2014 06:47 Bagi wrote:
Anyone else feel they went a bit overboard with all the upgrades? Maybe it just takes some getting used to but at the moment everything is so cluttered, some streamlining probably wouldn't hurt.
I think my main issue with the upgrades is that I don't see a lot of their purposes, especially when there's no visual indication what variety of upgrades those units do or don't have. So I guess it might be "fun" from the player upgrading's perspective, but it doesn't really seem to be clear what your units are capable of to your opponent, and because there are so many different upgrades I imagine it's difficult to reliably predict.
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9448 Posts
January 13 2014 22:01 GMT
#505
So I guess it might be "fun" from the player upgrading's perspective, but it doesn't really seem to be clear what your units are capable of to your opponent, and because there are so many different upgrades I imagine it's difficult to reliably predict.


Can you give me a practical example?
Cheren
Profile Blog Joined September 2013
United States2911 Posts
January 13 2014 22:06 GMT
#506
http://www.twitch.tv/whatcrowbar

This guy's streaming Starbow zerg, something to watch until the KotH in 2 hours.
RampancyTW
Profile Joined August 2010
United States577 Posts
January 13 2014 22:10 GMT
#507
On January 14 2014 07:01 Hider wrote:
Show nested quote +
So I guess it might be "fun" from the player upgrading's perspective, but it doesn't really seem to be clear what your units are capable of to your opponent, and because there are so many different upgrades I imagine it's difficult to reliably predict.


Can you give me a practical example?
Having to research Consume, for example. You might spot a Defiler popping from an outlying expansion, but you might not know whether or not that's a window of opportunity for a snipe or a death trap in the next 20 seconds. First one that comes to mind off the top of my head, but the 120498124 Terran upgrades that I can't even keep track of or some non-specific ones that come to mind.
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7032 Posts
January 13 2014 22:14 GMT
#508
I have to say that all the bandwagon jumping is a little bit obnoxious. All of a sudden there are a million articles, casts, streams and king of the hill tournaments by random people that have no real interest in the mod and are just trying to get their name out.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
Xiphos
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada7507 Posts
January 13 2014 22:16 GMT
#509
The term "fun" to describe units is actually defined as having high micromanagement potential. So units that are rather one dimensional w/o much descrepencies b/w players aren't challenging to us. There are many units of such degree in SC2 and StarBow is attempting to reinforce the BW tradition on it and thus enhancing the gameplay nature of SC2.
2014 - ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ Raise your bows brood warriors! ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9448 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-13 22:32:08
January 13 2014 22:24 GMT
#510
On January 14 2014 07:10 RampancyTW wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2014 07:01 Hider wrote:
So I guess it might be "fun" from the player upgrading's perspective, but it doesn't really seem to be clear what your units are capable of to your opponent, and because there are so many different upgrades I imagine it's difficult to reliably predict.


Can you give me a practical example?
Having to research Consume, for example. You might spot a Defiler popping from an outlying expansion, but you might not know whether or not that's a window of opportunity for a snipe or a death trap in the next 20 seconds. First one that comes to mind off the top of my head, but the 120498124 Terran upgrades that I can't even keep track of or some non-specific ones that come to mind.


In Sc2 they have all these useless tech starport ups. In Sbow I think there are 3 new starport upgrades + upgrades from BW.

- Range upgrade is needed on barrack for bio due to the Dragoon pressure thing.

- Matrix has to be an upgrade. Otherwise it becomes too powerfull early game.

- Consume, perhaps its not neccesary to be an upgrade, but it was like that in BW, and we prefer to keep BW as a core (for balance purposes) unless we believe we can improve the playing experience by making some changes. I, do however, agree that if it had no uninteded balance consequences to make Defilers start with it, then it would be fine to give it to them for free.

- Terran has an ebay-upgrade to seperate scan energy cost from macromechanics. This is needed, otherwise terran wouldn't be able to use macromechanics as much in the mid/late game as scan become very important during this stage. Further, I don't see at all how this upgrade makes the game less fluent.

Thinking about anything else?
Tuczniak
Profile Joined September 2010
1561 Posts
January 13 2014 22:29 GMT
#511
There might be little too many upgrades. I would consider while balancing removing upgrades and not adding any more.
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7032 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-13 22:36:32
January 13 2014 22:31 GMT
#512
I think if you use upgrades purely to delay something that's bad form. Consume feels like a core ability for defilers, something essential for the unit. I would expect them to start with consume, even though it's not in brood war.

I would say that two good reasons for introducing upgrades should be: adding interesting timing windows & adding gameplay choices. Making consume an upgrade seems especially unnecessary given that you could adjust the cost of the defiler mound, or of the plague upgrade. (if you were concerned about delaying the defiler somehow)
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
avilo
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States4100 Posts
January 13 2014 22:32 GMT
#513
Spider mines don't work in this. They rarely ever go off.
Sup
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9448 Posts
January 13 2014 22:34 GMT
#514
Consume feels like a core ability for defilers, something essential for the unit. I would expect them to start with consume, even though it's not in brood war.


I feel the same way tbh. Thanks for your feedback, I think we will consider/look into this.
avilo
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States4100 Posts
January 13 2014 22:35 GMT
#515
Quick feedback before i play more: very fun mod to play.

If anything, this mod should show blizzard that they can implement things like 0 supply mines, cheaper/lower cost/lower supply tanks, and high ground advantage.

It's a bit disgusting how blizzard could have implemented high ground advantage ages ago, yet here it is in your guys's mod.

I'll write more when i play it more, but this is already more fun than SC2 which is really sad to say. I've only played TvP on this so far but it's 200x better than SC2 TvP. Battles and harrassment all over the place and mech does not suck. Well, the mech is basically bw mech, so of course it doesn't suck.
Sup
Izerman
Profile Joined May 2013
Sweden99 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-13 22:58:35
January 13 2014 22:42 GMT
#516
On January 14 2014 07:35 avilo wrote:
Quick feedback before i play more: very fun mod to play.

If anything, this mod should show blizzard that they can implement things like 0 supply mines, cheaper/lower cost/lower supply tanks, and high ground advantage.

It's a bit disgusting how blizzard could have implemented high ground advantage ages ago, yet here it is in your guys's mod.

I'll write more when i play it more, but this is already more fun than SC2 which is really sad to say. I've only played TvP on this so far but it's 200x better than SC2 TvP. Battles and harrassment all over the place and mech does not suck. Well, the mech is basically bw mech, so of course it doesn't suck.


agreed.
you tried this?



How Spider mines work in Starbow:

Spider mines in Sbow works a bit different compared to BW. This is mainly due to AI problems in the SC2 engine. It was very hard to recreate them in the "correct" way. So we had to go for another solution. This version is not 100% perfect though.


DETONATE

The current "method" used in the game to overcome this, is a new ability on Spider mines called Detonate.

It allows the Terran player to launch the Spider mine towards an enemy target within range 5.25. (Not vs hovering units)
When the ability is used, the missile is shot immediately. Its not 1.9 seconds delay.

This means that if Hydras, Marines or Stalkers, with attack range 5, A-move into a mine field, it is still possible for the Terran player to launch mines towards them by manual control. But it is a small window of time. And probably hard as hell.

Upgraded Dragoons have attack range 6. Which means that the ability is too short to be activated on them, unless they move too close by accident or when trying to detect where the mine is.

Vultures can however move up close, plant mines, and as soon as they are planted, use Detonate ability to avoid the 1.9 second unburrow time. If properly microed, they become more efficient.

This is probably not optimal either. I have never seen it used in a game. (Maybe because its too hard, or because no one knows about it.)

We will start to fine tune the values for next patch. Either with or without Detonate. Would just prefer to get some feedback on that ability from players. How does it feel for the gameplay? Weird? Fun?
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7032 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-13 22:52:18
January 13 2014 22:51 GMT
#517
On the general topic of methodology, I think that many designers (or artists) fall victim to this notion of trying to incorporate every single idea they've ever had into their work. As if designing is like solving a puzzle where every single piece has to be relevant. I think it's more sensible to look at what you want to achieve with the game, and to only use any of the available elements if you truly think that they add to the quality of the work. Instead of endlessly coming up with new permutations of existing ideas, a designer should have the courage to simply shelve something if it is lacking in quality and have faith in his ability to generate new ideas and concepts. And I sometimes feel that Starbow tries too hard to incorporate every main idea from both BW&SC2.

I think it's a good exercise to ask yourself which upgrade or unit or ability you would remove from the game if you were held at gunpoint.

Starbow sometimes also feels a little bit like there are a lot of designers (or people giving input at least) and to keep things manageable or avoid conflict, they've all more or less agreed to be accepting of each other's ideas, resulting in clutter. (I'm being provocative on purpose, sorry )
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
superpanda27
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
111 Posts
January 13 2014 22:53 GMT
#518
On January 14 2014 07:42 Izerman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2014 07:35 avilo wrote:
Quick feedback before i play more: very fun mod to play.

If anything, this mod should show blizzard that they can implement things like 0 supply mines, cheaper/lower cost/lower supply tanks, and high ground advantage.

It's a bit disgusting how blizzard could have implemented high ground advantage ages ago, yet here it is in your guys's mod.

I'll write more when i play it more, but this is already more fun than SC2 which is really sad to say. I've only played TvP on this so far but it's 200x better than SC2 TvP. Battles and harrassment all over the place and mech does not suck. Well, the mech is basically bw mech, so of course it doesn't suck.


agreed.
you tried this?

Show nested quote +

DETONATE

The current "method" used in the game to overcome this, is a new ability on Spider mines called Detonate.

It allows the Terran player to launch the Spider mine towards an enemy target within range 5.25. (Not vs hovering units)
When the ability is used, the missile is shot immediately. Its not 1.9 seconds delay.

This means that if Hydras, Marines or Stalkers, with attack range 5, A-move into a mine field, it is still possible for the Terran player to launch mines towards them by manual control. But it is a small window of time. And probably hard as hell.

Upgraded Dragoons have attack range 6. Which means that the ability is too short to be activated on them, unless they move too close by accident or when trying to detect where the mine is.

Vultures can however move up close, plant mines, and as soon as they are planted, use Detonate ability to avoid the 1.9 second unburrow time. If properly microed, they become more efficient.

This is probably not optimal either. I have never seen it used in a game. (Maybe because its too hard, or because no one knows about it.)

We will start to fine tune the values for next patch. Either with or without Detonate. Would just prefer to get some feedback on that ability from players. How does it feel for the gameplay? Weird? Fun?


I think like your in-quote quote says, it may be a little too hard to pull off, but then again I don't think Avilo or a lot people know that the spider-mine has that kind of ability. It is good now that spider-mines are explained how they work on the front page.
Another thing to add to the front page is the Starbow wiki at http://starbow.wikia.com/wiki/Starbow_Wiki and updating the thread link on the wiki. Also for some people edit what units are in Starbow and what they can do on there.
Izerman
Profile Joined May 2013
Sweden99 Posts
January 13 2014 22:55 GMT
#519
On January 14 2014 07:51 Grumbels wrote:
On the general topic of methodology, I think that many designers (or artists) fall victim to this notion of trying to incorporate every single idea they've ever had into their work. As if designing is like solving a puzzle where every single piece has to be relevant. I think it's more sensible to look at what you want to achieve with the game, and to only use any of the available elements if you truly think that they add to the quality of the work. Instead of endlessly coming up with new permutations of existing ideas, a designer should have the courage to simply shelve something if it is lacking in quality and have faith in his ability to generate new ideas and concepts. And I sometimes feel that Starbow tries too hard to incorporate every main idea from both BW&SC2.

I think it's a good exercise to ask yourself which upgrade or unit or ability you would remove from the game if you were held at gunpoint.

Starbow sometimes also feels a little bit like there are a lot of designers (or people giving input at least) and to keep things manageable or avoid conflict, they've all more or less agreed to be accepting of each other's ideas, resulting in clutter. (I'm being provocative on purpose, sorry )


Well i honestly feel there has to be a limit to unit versatility.
i feel like you cant have a strategy game if every unit does a job pretty well..

That was what i liked about bw too.
Terran vs Zerg = you went bio and eventually switched to mech.
Terran vs Protoss = you went mech

Vs Protoss you used emp
Vs Zerg you got irradiate

GamanNo
Profile Joined November 2010
Sweden63 Posts
January 13 2014 22:57 GMT
#520
We have updated the Starbow wiki now http://starbow.wikia.com/wiki/Starbow_Wiki
Feel free to check it out if you want to see what units, buildings etc. are in the mod.
And please report if you find something that is wrong
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