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Mines are invisible, nearly free units that take next to no apm to plant. I don't think it's fair for protoss to be mired in mine fields every place he turns to, slowly chipping away at his units. It's not enough that with precise micro you can suffer no losses -- while the primary purpose of mines is to delay and following up on that it makes sense to force the protoss player to carefully (slowly) advance his dragoons, it's still an uphill match up for the protoss player. Especially if you can get out more vultures than before, so that mines start to feel like playing versus swarm hosts.
You can add siege tanks to mine fields to take advantage of their delaying power, this should be enough for the terran. Undefended mines shouldn't be a barrier to a protoss player that has a sizable army & observers. Although it's probably okay for a really dense mine field to be significantly harder to clear, and for mines to occasionally cause a few losses.
(It might be fair because archons can clear out mines though, but that comes a bit late in the game.)
Also, it shouldn't be surprising that TT1 prefers BW over Starbow. Why shouldn't he? Starbow is an attempt at recapturing the magic of BW where SC2 failed, but it's not a given that it's going to succeed. Starbow is still in development with an immature meta, in any case, so it has some distinct disadvantages over Brood War. To some they might actually be positive aspects, because the game is less figured out so you can invent strategies of your own and you can participate in design discussions on TL, but it's a double-edged sword and some people can legitimately feel that these are downsides.
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I'd like to chip in that I don't think mines are imbalanced in the TvP mu. I played a great game against dirtybag on circuit breaker the other day, and would have won it had I played better. I don't think the mu is as hugely T favoured as some people here are arguing, not in my experience anyway.
The only major issue in the mu is the weakness of P lategame. Mid and early game is ok. I've already been playing around with building one scout for the new ability to kill their first science vessel with some success.
Fix arbiters by increasing the range and I think it would be pretty much ideal.
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On March 01 2014 10:57 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2014 10:48 tehredbanditt wrote:On March 01 2014 10:33 Kaos_StarCraft wrote:
Spider mines are pretty troublesome, especially when a pack of vultures get inside your dragoon group and start placing mines. You have to stop attacking the vultures and move your goons back before re-engaging which gives the vultures a bunch of free dps. This makes roaming the map clearing mine-fields a little hard when vultures that outnumber your clearing pack show up. I'm not exactly sure how you would nerf them though outside of a very minor speed reduction. This was the case in bw too. Any ways, dirtybag is the best terran I've played in starbow. He is experienced in this mod and seems to be a great tactician as well. Regardless of wither the spider mine proves to be overpowered or underpowered, the dismissal of his skill is not warranted. I think the biggest difference between Vulture here and in BW in terms of effect on direct compact are these; - Vultures have 10 less HP than in BW - Vultures move a lot better in Sbow (we can say that about all units, but some units benefits more from it). - It is generally less hurtful to be hit by spider mines than in BW (splash is less in Sbow) - Vultures have 1.5 casting range of Spider Mines, which makes them slightly more effective at landing spider mines during battles. - Macromechanics (incl. reactor) overall favor heavier Vulture production relative to BW (w/ slightly less siege tanks instead). So generally in Sbow, the terran is gonna have more Vultures in a normal situation than in BW.
you forgot that they have less range in starbow too.
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Its on! My only fear is now that Innovation has not prepared starbow :x
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RSVP vs Ryung
G1: Very much as expected, Ryung really didn't know what he was doing (no goliaths, no siege tech?), and thus lost convincingly.
G2: I think RSVP played quite poorly here. He went quick 3rd and still had 5 Dragoons out on the map for no obvious reasons and thus lost them to Spider Mines. Ryung 2 based timing attacked him out of 4 factories (in Sbow you only need 4 though, but close enough). RSVP followed up with a late Sentinel after expand which IMO didn't do enough given the cost related to teching to them and died to it.
G3: RSVP went for 1base Sentinel this time and Ryung held it much better. The two-base timing attack from Ryung prooved too strong as RSVP simply didn't have the Dragoon count to delay it/handle it effectively.
Final results: 2-1 score to Ryung.
Beastygt vs Sasquatch
G1: Pretty cool opening by Beastygt, but Sasquatch had surprisingly bad Muta micro vs Irraidate.
G2: Beastygt did 2 rax after CC with 8 Marine pressure play. Its very standard, and I am surprised why Sasquatch basically died to it on a big map like Starrunner. Maybe he was supply blocked or something like that.
Final results: 2-0 to Beastygt, who displayed very solid play, but I think Sasquatch is better than this normally though, and might just have a bad day.
Crank vs Impact
G1: Impact does a light hydra pressure and Crank overcommits w/ lots of Cannons (thinking its an all in). Impact then goes into Hydra/lurker with Crank going for a 2base attack with Zealot/Dragoon + HT's. After some good micro from Impact, he ends up winning the game.
G2: Impact goes from some cool cheese, mining the mineral path on Neo Desitnaiton which means that his lings can go directly into the main of Crank. The lings ends up killing the main of Crank, and a hydra follow up ends up killing Crank who GG's out.
Final results: 2-0 to Impact (small upset, but I am very impressed by Impact's play).
TT1 gets a loss vs Innovation due to oversleeping. He will play in the losers match
Beastygt vs Impact
Beastygt vs Impact
G1: Beastygt attempts to do the same opening as vs Sasquatch in G1. Expand into 1/1/1. Impact (unlike Sasquatch) responds by rushing out spire, but he also gets out some Speedlings which Beastygt was totally unprepared for. Beastygt only has 1 marine in a bunker and ends up killing the bunker before scv's can repair it. This gives Sasquatch access to the main of Beastygt and he does a lot of economical damage and the Muta followup kills Beastygt.
G2: In an epic 50-minute TvZ with small skirmishes all over the place, Beastygt ends up winning a very impressive TvZ with his mech-style.
G3: Beastygt attempts a 2rax bunker rush but fails. The game then goes into a "normal" macro game, but Beastygt isn't properly prepared for Impact's mass Mutalisk strategy and GG's.
Final results: 2-1 Impact.
Innovation vs Ryung
G1: An extremely actionpacked 25minute TvT with drops and small skirmishes going on constantly. In the end Innovaiton just had the slightly better multitasking and unit control, and thus won the game.
G2: A bit similar to G1. Very actionpacked, w/ Innovation just getting better of most of the trades. Ryung trades a big counter-push around the 20-minute mark and breaks through Innovations tankline and into the natural. However, Innovations counterdrop kills Ryungs main and Ryung GG's out.
Final results: 2-0 to Innovation.
TT1 vs RSVP
Both games were prettyonesided with TT1 simply always having more stuff than RSVP who wasn't able to handle TT1's Zealot/Dragoon/Archon composition.
Final results: 2-0 to TT1
Crank vs Sasquatch
G1: Sasquatch attempts hydra pressure into Mutalisks. But neither really works and he losses to Crank's heavy leglot attacks.
G2: Sasquatch losses 8 overlords to Crank's Corsair opening. He tries a hydra counteratttack but fails. Yet, Sasquatch still shows some solid macro and is somewhat even in supply. However, he gets caught just before he succesfully could transition into Ultralisks and dies to Crank's timing attack.
Final Results: 2-0 to Crank.
TT1 vs Ryung
G1: TT1 tries Reaver and expand against Ryung's 1base. However, he doesn't have enough defense at home to deal with Ryungs tank/vulture army.
G2: TT1 goes very early nexus (before range) and early on losses one Dragoon as it attempts to "scout" Ryungs main. This puts TT1 in a tough spot and after the "greedy" opening he is forced into two gate followup. He barely holds off with Dragoons against Spider Mines, but doesn't get detection untill the 14th minute mark and at that point Ryung has already siged up his natural, and TT1 is basically dead.
Final results: 2-0 to Ryung.
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@Hider
I don't think that Impact is making an upset. He is really good, just by watching his games from Axiom tourney, I expect Impact to get to the finals.
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On March 01 2014 23:11 Ramiz1989 wrote:
@Hider
I don't think that Impact is making an upset. He is really good, just by watching his games from Axiom tourney, I expect Impact to get to the finals.
Its an upset to me. -_-. I got the RSVP vs Ryung outcome right (RSVP winning G1 and losing G2 and G3) and Beastygt vs Sasquatch correct. But now I am not 3/3 thanks to the skills of Impact.  But yeh he definitely looks like he could win it all.
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im up now, the admins told me i could play in the losers match
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On March 01 2014 23:33 TT1 wrote:
im up now, the admins told me i could play in the losers match
Great. I just edited my post then.
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Man we have like 5000 viewers watching Starbow right now! Awesome! I hope it brings more people into the game, looking good so far. Awesome games so far as well.
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sasquatch was in a very good position imo. The "mistake" was building mutas
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On March 02 2014 00:26 Foxxan wrote:
sasquatch was in a very good position imo. The "mistake" was building mutas
Yeah i think he could have just made more hydras and Def'd the push.
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Do you still get auto-refunded when units die while building or buildings upgrading?
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Vatican City State733 Posts
On March 02 2014 00:43 da_head wrote:
Do you still get auto-refunded when units die while building or buildings upgrading?
Yep, you do
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Developers, have you thought about adding back the Shield Battery from BW? I know they weren't really used that much, but IMO they really fit Protoss.
Alternatively, add a shield battery ability to the Nexus? That could be really useful for Protoss defensively, and it would make the nexus have as many abilitys as the Orbital Command.
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On March 02 2014 00:55 labbe wrote:
Developers, have you thought about adding back the Shield Battery from BW? I know they weren't really used that much, but IMO they really fit Protoss.
Alternatively, add a shield battery ability to the Nexus? That could be really useful for Protoss defensively, and it would make the nexus have as many abilitys as the Orbital Command.
I love that idea!!!
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Is it just me that Vulture mines looks a bit imba in TvP? They can outrun Dragoons and just plant mines around them.
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Chrono boost increases the attack speed of cannons...maybe it could increase shield regen or something too, and be able to be used on units??
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EPT
