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On January 30 2014 11:36 Zhadez10 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2014 10:43 Hider wrote:People are already enjoying the game because of the "dumber AI", so saying that it makes the "AI dumber" is just a statement which only carries weight because there is a consensus amongst SC2 players that "smart AI" = better and "dumb AI" = worse. Yeh I agree. I actually also edited out the statement dumber AI, and just kept in overkill (because that's actually the same thing here). Overkill seems to be a "plus"-word here, and dumber AI ins't. But what is the right amount of overkill? Currently overkill has a value of "0.01" for units, but if increased to "0.03" it will make 10 of the Scourges for the Corsair instead of just 4 of them. Why are people so certian that 0.01 is the right value of overkill (?) So I think its important to not have any predetermined point of view regarding whether you want smarter AI or not, but simply look at this at a case-by-case basis? If players were punished for a-moving Scourges against a protoss player that inidivudally microed a single Corsair away from the remaining of his Corsairs. And what if the zerg player was rewarded for cotnrolling seperate groups of Scourges to attack each indiviudal Corsair - wouldn't that be super awesome to watch (and play)? Sorry for quoting you so much, and I'm not just trying to disagree with you but... I dont think overkill is a big part of why ppl like Starbow, but the new units and how the economy works (rewarding you for having more bases). Like I said before I think 4 scourge is very reasonable to go after a single corsair, but if it changes to 10 that instantly becomes rediculous. What if he spreads out his corsairs (cloning is really hard btw and requires time and distance to set up OR you need to commit a bunch of hotkeys which is only feasable with low numbers of targets). Another scenario could be if a group of mutas was being chased by a group of scourge (and scourge could actually catch up). There is no way you could effectively clone your scourge vs a muta clump and all the muta player has to do is press the spread button and BAM tons of scourge go to waste. So yeah definitely look at this at a case by case basis.
In a previous comment I made the calculation that (in a vacuum) you can cost efficiently trade up to 6 scourge per science vessel. Not in a vacuum its even more cost effective due to the nature of resource/tech imbalance between Zerg and Terran, and you aren't absolutely suicidal with scourge usage. Losing scourge is also much less of a deal than losing vessels, a Terran who loses all his vessels to scourge is basically screwed.
This means that whether scourge overkill or not, you will trade cost efficiently every time just by a-moving into vessels.
Especially when normally you probably want to clone extra scourge per vessel in certain situations, you are actually better off a-moving than actually doing any micro. This is because you are guaranteed to get vessel kills by a-moving and at worst you are going to lose 4 scourge, which is better than losing clone scourge and not killing any vessels.
Given this, I think you should need at least more than 6 scourge to overkill.
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
Cheers Shox, was a good watch there.
Anyway, yeah this is great. Hopefully can stop being godamn terrible at it so I can contribute a bit more with ideas etc, as it stands I am leaving it to those with more familiarity :p
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In response to scourge vs corsair/muta. Again corsair and mutalisks are much more valuable than scourge, so it makes sense to have to require at least the same if not more micro to kill them.
Right now its much easier to chase down a corsair with scourge than it is to evade the scourge with the corsair. You can just chase corsairs all game and make it really difficult for a non-progamer Protoss to handle anything else at the same time. Either the player has to let the corsair die which really sucks, or he sacrifices his macro which also really sucks.
If you kill the first corsair the game literally completely changes. Corsair builds require air-dominance, there is no point in making corsairs if you are not able to achieve this. When you kill the first corsair, the second corsair becomes even easier to kill and you can maintain air-dominance as Zerg this way and completely change your build to AtG base denial style play.
ZvP was completely Zerg dominant in BW until builds that allowed Protoss to gain air-dominance reliably appeared.
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I just want to say that I appreciate that you guys are interacting with the community to come up with solutions for balance, it makes us all feel like game designers and keeps us interested in following the development of the mod. Keep it up!
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this game...nonononoonono
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On January 30 2014 14:31 ShadowBrood wrote:
this game...nonononoonono
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Bug, The Roach unit is not in the hotkey menu. WE can't re-hotkey roach's burrow ability.
Is their a way to fix this?
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guys i can't find the vods of starbow .. well i found them through searching properly but i think it would be a good idea to put all the youtube channels/twitch channels that are showcasing/casting starbow games..
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Bug: Siege tanks don't do any damage to units under dark swarm. No harm at all.
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On January 30 2014 17:21 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
Bug: Siege tanks don't do any damage to units under dark swarm. No harm at all.
uhm i think that's how dark swarm worked in BW .. only the splash works of the siege tank under the dark swarm
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Yes please add them to OP although this is just a suggestion anyways.. it would be nice if that was added for ones who doesn't starbow or first time encountered them. hehe.
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I dont think overkill is a big part of why ppl like Starbow,
I completely agree, but my point was just that people in general have a more positive attitude towards "overkill" compared to "AI".
If we do look at overkill at the Siege Tank, one could say it adds two differences;
1) Incentivies players to force the players to waste shots of the Siege Tank either by dropping one unit at the Tank or leading with a unit before a battle
2) Rewards the terran player for not target firing with all his Siege tanks at once but only selecting small groups
While this adds a small amount of micro, its admittely not that visually interesting for the spectator.
But compare that to increasing the overkill of Scourges as I described in my previous posts. That type of micro has so much potenital for both players and all viewers will be able to see the skill level of the two players judging by their Scourge and Corsair micro.
That's I would say, much more visually appealing compared to when a player focus fires units with all of tanks or whether he instead uses small groups of 3 Tanks to focus fire Dragoons.
Like I said before I think 4 scourge is very reasonable to go after a single corsair, but if it changes to 10 that instantly becomes rediculous.
I get the feeling here that you think the Scourge is actually more expensive than it is. As another poster stated before me, 4 Scourges are cheaper than one Corsair.
Nevertheless, that's more of a balance issue and can be fixed by numbers. The important thing though is to create interesting unit interactions. And I think with the current level of overkill, we aren't really creating any type of practical micro for the protoss player. If he attempts to manually micro away one individual Corsair, then it doesn't really help him in anyway, since he can't use the remaining of the Corsairs to attack the Scourges. Thus, we will simply end up with a situation where the Corsairs always will go home if they are below critical mass, but A-move if they have the critical mass to beat the Scourges.
That's IMO nowhere near as interesting as the more overkill-suggestion.
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On January 30 2014 17:32 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2014 17:21 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
Bug: Siege tanks don't do any damage to units under dark swarm. No harm at all. uhm i think that's how dark swarm worked in BW .. only the splash works of the siege tank under the dark swarm
We are looking at this issue. Decemberscalm has discovered something interesting. In BW tanks did do dmg under swarm but they always missed the target by a few pixels, which means that nearby units might get hit. They had the same behavior when shooting up a cliff if the miss chance kicked it. Not sure if we should implement it here, but they should do some sort of dmg, at least some splash dmg under swarm.
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On January 30 2014 17:37 Xiphias wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2014 17:32 goody153 wrote:On January 30 2014 17:21 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
Bug: Siege tanks don't do any damage to units under dark swarm. No harm at all. uhm i think that's how dark swarm worked in BW .. only the splash works of the siege tank under the dark swarm We are looking at this issue. Decemberscalm has discovered something interesting. In BW tanks did do dmg under swarm but they always missed the target by a few pixels, which means that nearby units might get hit. They had the same behavior when shooting up a cliff if the miss chance kicked it. Not sure if we should implement it here, but they should do some sort of dmg, at least some splash dmg under swarm.
wish i knew this before i went full mech in a tournament haha 
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
Is there a BO tester/how easy would it be to make one?
If it's something that the devs have to do, I think they have other priorities. I'd be willing to make a rudimentary one if the demand was there though.
I'm enjoying trying to streamline builds myself, and remaking ever time is no great problem but staying in a lobby and hitting -reset every time, plus setting benchmarks is a nice tool.
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List of Streams and Youtube channels added to OP.
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On January 30 2014 20:40 Wombat_NI wrote:
Is there a BO tester/how easy would it be to make one?
If it's something that the devs have to do, I think they have other priorities. I'd be willing to make a rudimentary one if the demand was there though.
I'm enjoying trying to streamline builds myself, and remaking ever time is no great problem but staying in a lobby and hitting -reset every time, plus setting benchmarks is a nice tool.
Would it be possible to make a BO tester extension mod?
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Add my Stream to Op: http://twitch.tv/Dragonei1 i only Stream Starbow. Zerg Master, i am the one who Beastyqt loves destroying. (I speak in spanish in the streams)
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EPT
