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On January 30 2014 13:39 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2014 11:36 Zhadez10 wrote:On January 30 2014 10:43 Hider wrote:People are already enjoying the game because of the "dumber AI", so saying that it makes the "AI dumber" is just a statement which only carries weight because there is a consensus amongst SC2 players that "smart AI" = better and "dumb AI" = worse. Yeh I agree. I actually also edited out the statement dumber AI, and just kept in overkill (because that's actually the same thing here). Overkill seems to be a "plus"-word here, and dumber AI ins't. But what is the right amount of overkill? Currently overkill has a value of "0.01" for units, but if increased to "0.03" it will make 10 of the Scourges for the Corsair instead of just 4 of them. Why are people so certian that 0.01 is the right value of overkill (?) So I think its important to not have any predetermined point of view regarding whether you want smarter AI or not, but simply look at this at a case-by-case basis? If players were punished for a-moving Scourges against a protoss player that inidivudally microed a single Corsair away from the remaining of his Corsairs. And what if the zerg player was rewarded for cotnrolling seperate groups of Scourges to attack each indiviudal Corsair - wouldn't that be super awesome to watch (and play)? Sorry for quoting you so much, and I'm not just trying to disagree with you but... I dont think overkill is a big part of why ppl like Starbow, but the new units and how the economy works (rewarding you for having more bases). Like I said before I think 4 scourge is very reasonable to go after a single corsair, but if it changes to 10 that instantly becomes rediculous. What if he spreads out his corsairs (cloning is really hard btw and requires time and distance to set up OR you need to commit a bunch of hotkeys which is only feasable with low numbers of targets). Another scenario could be if a group of mutas was being chased by a group of scourge (and scourge could actually catch up). There is no way you could effectively clone your scourge vs a muta clump and all the muta player has to do is press the spread button and BAM tons of scourge go to waste. So yeah definitely look at this at a case by case basis. In a previous comment I made the calculation that (in a vacuum) you can cost efficiently trade up to 6 scourge per science vessel. Not in a vacuum its even more cost effective due to the nature of resource/tech imbalance between Zerg and Terran, and you aren't absolutely suicidal with scourge usage. Losing scourge is also much less of a deal than losing vessels, a Terran who loses all his vessels to scourge is basically screwed. This means that whether scourge overkill or not, you will trade cost efficiently every time just by a-moving into vessels. Especially when normally you probably want to clone extra scourge per vessel in certain situations, you are actually better off a-moving than actually doing any micro. This is because you are guaranteed to get vessel kills by a-moving and at worst you are going to lose 4 scourge, which is better than losing clone scourge and not killing any vessels. Given this, I think you should need at least more than 6 scourge to overkill.
Mate, you are completely forgetting to take into account what the science vessel has already killed. Sure we can say 6 scourge = science vessel but the science vessel may already have irradiated a lurker making the equation heavily imbalanced, not to mention if it has irradiated more than that, say a defiler and a lurker it's a super heavily imbalanced to trade 6 scourges (not to mention the 10 that was suggested to overkill) AND a defiler+lurker. It's like you're forgetting that scourge NEED to be cost effective because they die in the process of killing stuff. While other units always have this potential to do so much more with good micro.
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On January 30 2014 13:46 sluggaslamoo wrote:
ZvP was completely Zerg dominant in BW until builds that allowed Protoss to gain air-dominance reliably appeared.
I dont think it was the Protoss getting air domination builds that tipped it. It was the bisu build yes which included corsairs but I think it was the transition from opening gateway first vs forge fast expand. After forge fast expand there many more builds that dont rely on air control.
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On January 31 2014 00:34 Zhadez10 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2014 13:46 sluggaslamoo wrote:
ZvP was completely Zerg dominant in BW until builds that allowed Protoss to gain air-dominance reliably appeared. I dont think it was the Protoss getting air domination builds that tipped it. It was the bisu build yes which included corsairs but I think it was the transition from opening gateway first vs forge fast expand. After forge fast expand there many more builds that dont rely on air control.
Bisu didn't invent the Forge FE lol. I remember the ongoing debate about what the Bisu build was. I think we all agreed in the end that doing the Bisu build was just another name for being good at PvZ.
The stargate is the most versatile opening for Protoss in that mu since the other openings don't let you scout. With the later developments in ZvP with zerg doing muta switches to kill templar, it became very common to mass corsairs with +1. If they don't dominate scourges, with no dark archon in the game, seems like it'll be pretty tough for protoss to deal with Mutalisk sniping.
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On January 30 2014 17:37 Xiphias wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2014 17:32 goody153 wrote:On January 30 2014 17:21 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
Bug: Siege tanks don't do any damage to units under dark swarm. No harm at all. uhm i think that's how dark swarm worked in BW .. only the splash works of the siege tank under the dark swarm We are looking at this issue. Decemberscalm has discovered something interesting. In BW tanks did do dmg under swarm but they always missed the target by a few pixels, which means that nearby units might get hit. They had the same behavior when shooting up a cliff if the miss chance kicked it. Not sure if we should implement it here, but they should do some sort of dmg, at least some splash dmg under swarm.
Yes, this was the same when archons hit units under swarm, the attack missed but it still did the splash damage splash dmg.
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On January 31 2014 00:40 Piy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2014 00:34 Zhadez10 wrote:On January 30 2014 13:46 sluggaslamoo wrote:
ZvP was completely Zerg dominant in BW until builds that allowed Protoss to gain air-dominance reliably appeared. I dont think it was the Protoss getting air domination builds that tipped it. It was the bisu build yes which included corsairs but I think it was the transition from opening gateway first vs forge fast expand. After forge fast expand there many more builds that dont rely on air control. Bisu didn't invent the Forge FE lol. I remember the ongoing debate about what the Bisu build was. I think we all agreed in the end that doing the Bisu build was just another name for being good at PvZ. The stargate is the most versatile opening for Protoss in that mu since the other openings don't let you scout. With the later developments in ZvP with zerg doing muta switches to kill templar, it became very common to mass corsairs with +1. If they don't dominate scourges, with no dark archon in the game, seems like it'll be pretty tough for protoss to deal with Mutalisk sniping.
Sure, but he popularized it. And yeah some players would literally only make one corsair to scout.
I agree tho, ideally you'd want corsairs and not have to rely on clunky storm/archons to deal with muta sniping.
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Northern Ireland26480 Posts
On January 30 2014 23:00 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2014 20:40 Wombat_NI wrote:
Is there a BO tester/how easy would it be to make one?
If it's something that the devs have to do, I think they have other priorities. I'd be willing to make a rudimentary one if the demand was there though.
I'm enjoying trying to streamline builds myself, and remaking ever time is no great problem but staying in a lobby and hitting -reset every time, plus setting benchmarks is a nice tool. Would it be possible to make a BO tester extension mod?
I don't know, it would be cool though for sure I'm just not at all au fait with how the extension mod works just yet
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Spidermines and Upgraded Hydralisks have the same range, mutalisks therefore become the only valid opener vs fast vultures/mines, too one-dimensional for my taste.
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you don't play 2 base Spines at nat into fast muta..... Mutas are strong enough to punish someone who tries this opener LOL so its not one dimensional. If you get owned from dropping vultures you should put 1 spine in the main.... Once your mutas are out the vultures are Null and you are now in teh position to counter Goliaths... because thats the best response from your opponent for muta.
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the first person i saw forge expand was nal_ra, he did it vs junwi on LT. he might have not invented the build tho
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On January 31 2014 02:05 TT1 wrote:
the first person i saw forge expand was nal_ra, he did it vs junwi on LT. he might have not invented the build tho
Grrrr... used to FFE. Check out this shit from 1.07:
+ Show Spoiler +
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On January 30 2014 13:46 sluggaslamoo wrote:
ZvP was completely Zerg dominant in BW until builds that allowed Protoss to gain air-dominance reliably appeared.
lol god what are you talking about? this couldn't be any further from the truth, ZvP has always been back and forth in BW. I believe before Savior popularised 3 Hatch Lair builds Zergs didn't win a tournament for five years, you can find TL threads from back then with people saying "Is Zerg dying?".
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On January 31 2014 02:42 Mindcrime wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2014 02:05 TT1 wrote:
the first person i saw forge expand was nal_ra, he did it vs junwi on LT. he might have not invented the build tho Grrrr... used to FFE. Check out this shit from 1.07: + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCm--TId6bs
Wow, I've never seen that game.
As far as I'm aware Nal_Ra popularised forge FE, and particularly Sair Reaver PvZ. He also pioneered 2 base arbiter and 12 nexus vs Terran. Basically took builds that were common on island maps and made them viable on land maps, now that I think about it.
Grrrr no doubt did both of these things first though. He pretty much did everything first with Protoss.
Oh - and yah, Zerg was totally dominant against Protoss til Bisu. Savior was like 85% win rate in that mu for a while.
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On January 31 2014 01:59 Pirfiktshon wrote:
you don't play 2 base Spines at nat into fast muta..... Mutas are strong enough to punish someone who tries this opener LOL so its not one dimensional. If you get owned from dropping vultures you should put 1 spine in the main.... Once your mutas are out the vultures are Null and you are now in teh position to counter Goliaths... because thats the best response from your opponent for muta.
Yeah no, It it not a problem of beating the build, it is just the only valid response. However kabel just informed me that the manual activation range of mines should be lower than the range of upgraded hydras now, so you can play a more passive style into faster lurkers if you don't wanna open muta ever single zvt.
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On January 31 2014 02:43 Espers wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2014 13:46 sluggaslamoo wrote:
ZvP was completely Zerg dominant in BW until builds that allowed Protoss to gain air-dominance reliably appeared. lol god what are you talking about? this couldn't be any further from the truth, ZvP has always been back and forth in BW. I believe before Savior popularised 3 Hatch Lair builds Zergs didn't win a tournament for five years, you can find TL threads from back then with people saying "Is Zerg dying?".
no
Tushin won OSLs in 2004 and 2005, and GoRush was very possibly the best player on earth the season he won YATGK.
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On January 31 2014 02:55 Mindcrime wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2014 02:43 Espers wrote:On January 30 2014 13:46 sluggaslamoo wrote:
ZvP was completely Zerg dominant in BW until builds that allowed Protoss to gain air-dominance reliably appeared. lol god what are you talking about? this couldn't be any further from the truth, ZvP has always been back and forth in BW. I believe before Savior popularised 3 Hatch Lair builds Zergs didn't win a tournament for five years, you can find TL threads from back then with people saying "Is Zerg dying?". no Tushin won OSLs in 2004 and 2005, and GoRush was very possibly the best player on earth the season he won YATGK.
he is right that Zergs didn't win a tournament for almost 5 years before July won his OSL. this argument that ZvP was Zerg dominated before Bisu is just wrong, Zerg struggled for a long time.
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On January 31 2014 02:42 Mindcrime wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2014 02:05 TT1 wrote:
the first person i saw forge expand was nal_ra, he did it vs junwi on LT. he might have not invented the build tho Grrrr... used to FFE. Check out this shit from 1.07: + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCm--TId6bs
hahaha thats sick, never saw that before
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On January 31 2014 03:08 Ovni wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2014 02:55 Mindcrime wrote:On January 31 2014 02:43 Espers wrote:On January 30 2014 13:46 sluggaslamoo wrote:
ZvP was completely Zerg dominant in BW until builds that allowed Protoss to gain air-dominance reliably appeared. lol god what are you talking about? this couldn't be any further from the truth, ZvP has always been back and forth in BW. I believe before Savior popularised 3 Hatch Lair builds Zergs didn't win a tournament for five years, you can find TL threads from back then with people saying "Is Zerg dying?". no Tushin won OSLs in 2004 and 2005, and GoRush was very possibly the best player on earth the season he won YATGK. he is right that Zergs didn't win a tournament for almost 5 years before July won his OSL. this argument that ZvP was Zerg dominated before Bisu is just wrong, Zerg struggled for a long time.
But struggled for a long time how? Against which players? Against what races? Because of what? Builds? Metagame? Whatever? You can't just post such a blanket statement and expect it to hold weight...
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On January 31 2014 03:08 Ovni wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2014 02:55 Mindcrime wrote:On January 31 2014 02:43 Espers wrote:On January 30 2014 13:46 sluggaslamoo wrote:
ZvP was completely Zerg dominant in BW until builds that allowed Protoss to gain air-dominance reliably appeared. lol god what are you talking about? this couldn't be any further from the truth, ZvP has always been back and forth in BW. I believe before Savior popularised 3 Hatch Lair builds Zergs didn't win a tournament for five years, you can find TL threads from back then with people saying "Is Zerg dying?". no Tushin won OSLs in 2004 and 2005, and GoRush was very possibly the best player on earth the season he won YATGK. he is right that Zergs didn't win a tournament for almost 5 years before July won his OSL. this argument that ZvP was Zerg dominated before Bisu is just wrong, Zerg struggled for a long time.
Zerg struggled because they were very very very weak in ZvT matchup, and Terran was the most played race. But Zerg was strong in ZvP.
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On January 31 2014 03:19 Tipany wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2014 03:08 Ovni wrote:On January 31 2014 02:55 Mindcrime wrote:On January 31 2014 02:43 Espers wrote:On January 30 2014 13:46 sluggaslamoo wrote:
ZvP was completely Zerg dominant in BW until builds that allowed Protoss to gain air-dominance reliably appeared. lol god what are you talking about? this couldn't be any further from the truth, ZvP has always been back and forth in BW. I believe before Savior popularised 3 Hatch Lair builds Zergs didn't win a tournament for five years, you can find TL threads from back then with people saying "Is Zerg dying?". no Tushin won OSLs in 2004 and 2005, and GoRush was very possibly the best player on earth the season he won YATGK. he is right that Zergs didn't win a tournament for almost 5 years before July won his OSL. this argument that ZvP was Zerg dominated before Bisu is just wrong, Zerg struggled for a long time. But struggled for a long time how? Against which players? Against what races? Because of what? Builds? Metagame? Whatever? You can't just post such a blanket statement and expect it to hold weight...
did you even read the first sentence of my post? it's not a blanket statement, you can go to liquipedia and confirm it yourself.
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EPT
