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On January 28 2014 05:14 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 05:09 Dragonm_sc2 wrote:
There was nothing wrong with the vessels before the patch the problem was the zerg not scourging the vessels.. I love these posts. Of course, because you can ALWAYS destroy SVs with Scourges when there is 120 supply of bio beneath those SVs.
Unfortunately the standard way of people solve problems now is doing things like that. They shout it's impossible do something (usually taking a situation out of context) and ask for a patch. Even old brood wars players are getting used to this now and doing the same thing.
I just hope that this mod do not fall in the same trap that sc2 fell. Lots of strats in bw took months/years to get developed or countered.
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On January 28 2014 02:34 BisuDagger wrote:
This ^. I don't like that you guys in this thread are continuing the SC2 trend of heavy balance arguing for Starbow. It's part of the reason I really dislike SC2 HoTs. Lots of unhappy people. Just play the game and enjoy it instead of flooding the MOD developers with your opinions. I'm having a blast in the bnet chat thread where you are forced to interact and know everyone there. Enjoy the party, don't be the party killer. Everything will be okay.
Yes, yes, yes. I've been playing this mod a lot and really enjoying it. It's just fun. I hate losing as much as anybody, but there haven't been any games where I've lost and felt like I was the better player and deserved to win. I can look at my losses and point out the mistakes I made and realize it doesn't have a damn thing to do with balance, it has to do with me becoming a better player.
Sure, there's issues that are going to be fixed over time. It's in beta after all. But if your natural instinct is to look at the balance of the game after a loss, then you're not doing it right.
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On January 28 2014 05:58 GoShox wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 02:34 BisuDagger wrote:
This ^. I don't like that you guys in this thread are continuing the SC2 trend of heavy balance arguing for Starbow. It's part of the reason I really dislike SC2 HoTs. Lots of unhappy people. Just play the game and enjoy it instead of flooding the MOD developers with your opinions. I'm having a blast in the bnet chat thread where you are forced to interact and know everyone there. Enjoy the party, don't be the party killer. Everything will be okay. Yes, yes, yes. I've been playing this mod a lot and really enjoying it. It's just fun. I hate losing as much as anybody, but there haven't been any games where I've lost and felt like I was the better player and deserved to win. I can look at my losses and point out the mistakes I made and realize it doesn't have a damn thing to do with balance, it has to do with me becoming a better player. Sure, there's issues that are going to be fixed over time. It's in beta after all. But if your natural instinct is to look at the balance of the game after a loss, then you're not doing it right.
+1 to GoShox
I think this is (and should be) the core focus of Starbow. Balance is one thing, but we don't want to end up in a place where a player can overall play better and still lose due to an opponent exploiting some particular mechanic that is advantageous to some particular race.
We have examples of these kinds of experiences when we watch a Terran win due to some ridiculous marine micro when he's 50% less supply, or Protoss win due to a sentry force fielding a ramp, or Zerg win due to just sitting on swarm hosts and waiting out the game. All of these types of things make poor games to watch and play.
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France1920 Posts
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On January 28 2014 05:14 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 05:09 Dragonm_sc2 wrote:
There was nothing wrong with the vessels before the patch the problem was the zerg not scourging the vessels.. I love these posts. Of course, because you can ALWAYS destroy SVs with Scourges when there is 120 supply of bio beneath those SVs.
and i love these quotes that say you have to wait till he has 120 supply of bio if you are waiting that long its your fault as soon as you see vessels you should be building scourge... It was possible in bw its possible here and it was even harder in bw because of the scourges dumb ai...
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On January 28 2014 05:27 Piy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 05:14 Ramiz1989 wrote:On January 28 2014 05:09 Dragonm_sc2 wrote:
There was nothing wrong with the vessels before the patch the problem was the zerg not scourging the vessels.. I love these posts. Of course, because you can ALWAYS destroy SVs with Scourges when there is 120 supply of bio beneath those SVs. This is the kind of attitude people need to stop having about this mod. Yes, you can scourge vessels that are supported by bio through good lurker and ling positioning. It's actually easier in sc2 because of the splash the scourge do and the natural clumping of the science vessels. Go watch a bw VOD of TvZ and you'll see what I mean. + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +The Iris vs GGplay one, from about 19 minutes onward, is a good illustration of why I disagree that vessel vs defiler made for a stale metagame. The Jaedong vs Fantasy game showcased excellent scourge use against vessels all game long, and also allowed for a crazy turn around due to excellent play from the winner.
Why are you always comparing this to the BW? It isn't easier here to snipe SVs, it is harder because of AI that units have and how Marines will not bug themselves out but will automatically target Scourges, and it is easier to control pack of SVs and Marines. You can even Irradiate pack of Scourges here and get them all killed just because with smart-casting it is that easy.
I don't have the problems with Irradiate doing 120 or 150 or 180 damage, I have a problem with comment like "people aren't killing SVs with Scourges enough" that are just straight stupid. You can't always do that, while you can just Irradiate everything in your sight most of the time.
Also, I completely understand why they nerfed Irradiate, as Hider said. I am mostly neutral about it because people didn't give it time at all and are already screaming about balance for the Mod that is in the beta.
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On January 28 2014 04:09 StarscreamG1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 03:30 Xiphias wrote:To answer some common questions: a) Is there a ladder? We are working on it. b) More sub-threads on teamliquid? We are working on a community site and plan to have a Starbow-only forum there. (We'll still be on tl.net as well but that should satisfy our forum needs  ) c) Starbow micro arena? We do not have time / resources to do this, but if you do, let me know! Starbow is a community project. If you want something we do not have, then offer to help! But we'd like you to contact us first so we don't have overlapping work. What about a TL stream menu for Starbow? If possible would be gold 
I've asked the mod's, has not happened yet 
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On January 28 2014 06:20 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 05:27 Piy wrote:On January 28 2014 05:14 Ramiz1989 wrote:On January 28 2014 05:09 Dragonm_sc2 wrote:
There was nothing wrong with the vessels before the patch the problem was the zerg not scourging the vessels.. I love these posts. Of course, because you can ALWAYS destroy SVs with Scourges when there is 120 supply of bio beneath those SVs. This is the kind of attitude people need to stop having about this mod. Yes, you can scourge vessels that are supported by bio through good lurker and ling positioning. It's actually easier in sc2 because of the splash the scourge do and the natural clumping of the science vessels. Go watch a bw VOD of TvZ and you'll see what I mean. + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +The Iris vs GGplay one, from about 19 minutes onward, is a good illustration of why I disagree that vessel vs defiler made for a stale metagame. The Jaedong vs Fantasy game showcased excellent scourge use against vessels all game long, and also allowed for a crazy turn around due to excellent play from the winner. Why are you always comparing this to the BW? It isn't easier here to snipe SVs, it is harder because of AI that units have and how Marines will not bug themselves out but will automatically target Scourges, and it is easier to control pack of SVs and Marines. You can even Irradiate pack of Scourges here and get them all killed just because with smart-casting it is that easy. I don't have the problems with Irradiate doing 120 or 150 or 180 damage, I have a problem with comment like "people aren't killing SVs with Scourges enough" that are just straight stupid. You can't always do that, while you can just Irradiate everything in your sight most of the time. Also, I completely understand why they nerfed Irradiate, as Hider said. I am mostly neutral about it because people didn't give it time at all and are already screaming about balance for the Mod that is in the beta.
no you can do it people are waiting to long to get scourge end of story..
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On January 28 2014 06:23 Xiphias wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 04:09 StarscreamG1 wrote:On January 28 2014 03:30 Xiphias wrote:To answer some common questions: a) Is there a ladder? We are working on it. b) More sub-threads on teamliquid? We are working on a community site and plan to have a Starbow-only forum there. (We'll still be on tl.net as well but that should satisfy our forum needs ) c) Starbow micro arena? We do not have time / resources to do this, but if you do, let me know! Starbow is a community project. If you want something we do not have, then offer to help! But we'd like you to contact us first so we don't have overlapping work. What about a TL stream menu for Starbow? If possible would be gold I've asked the mod's, has not happened yet
The thing is.. Are enough people streaming StarBow at the moment? Maybe we should give it more time to catch on before we ask them to add a new section to the site. That way the request will have more merit.
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On January 28 2014 06:47 Laertes wrote:
I think a lot of people aren't streaming cause no one's watching them cause no one knows they're streaming Season.
Yeah, it's tough for people to know. We could all post in this topic when we stream Starbow and advertise but nobody wants this topic to turn into that. I know that Beastyqt has Starbow next to his name under the stream list and he gets more and more viewers every time he streams; it's just a matter of people knowing what you're playing.
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On January 28 2014 06:34 Dragonm_sc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 06:20 Ramiz1989 wrote:On January 28 2014 05:27 Piy wrote:On January 28 2014 05:14 Ramiz1989 wrote:On January 28 2014 05:09 Dragonm_sc2 wrote:
There was nothing wrong with the vessels before the patch the problem was the zerg not scourging the vessels.. I love these posts. Of course, because you can ALWAYS destroy SVs with Scourges when there is 120 supply of bio beneath those SVs. This is the kind of attitude people need to stop having about this mod. Yes, you can scourge vessels that are supported by bio through good lurker and ling positioning. It's actually easier in sc2 because of the splash the scourge do and the natural clumping of the science vessels. Go watch a bw VOD of TvZ and you'll see what I mean. + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +The Iris vs GGplay one, from about 19 minutes onward, is a good illustration of why I disagree that vessel vs defiler made for a stale metagame. The Jaedong vs Fantasy game showcased excellent scourge use against vessels all game long, and also allowed for a crazy turn around due to excellent play from the winner. Why are you always comparing this to the BW? It isn't easier here to snipe SVs, it is harder because of AI that units have and how Marines will not bug themselves out but will automatically target Scourges, and it is easier to control pack of SVs and Marines. You can even Irradiate pack of Scourges here and get them all killed just because with smart-casting it is that easy. I don't have the problems with Irradiate doing 120 or 150 or 180 damage, I have a problem with comment like "people aren't killing SVs with Scourges enough" that are just straight stupid. You can't always do that, while you can just Irradiate everything in your sight most of the time. Also, I completely understand why they nerfed Irradiate, as Hider said. I am mostly neutral about it because people didn't give it time at all and are already screaming about balance for the Mod that is in the beta. no you can do it people are waiting to long to get scourge end of story..
Amazing argument, same as your last one.
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I'm not really seeing any increase in people playing Starbow I thought tons of people would be flooding the chat channels by now. Maybe because there is no ladder system yet?
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On January 28 2014 06:56 knOxStarcraft wrote:I'm not really seeing any increase in people playing Starbow I thought tons of people would be flooding the chat channels by now. Maybe because there is no ladder system yet?
I think it's because most relevant people haven't heard about it yet. Nobody on reddit actually plays the game, mind you. There is just the small group of people reading this thread. Also, the game isn't finished yet, a lot of people won't play unless there are pros playing and there is an established ladder & meta. (we are the pioneers :p )
I don't mind though, as long as I can find someone to play with within five minutes it's good enough. Because Starbow is smaller and more social usually if you get a good game you can ask for a few rematches, so finding games is actually easy in that respect.
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In BW, there was this really tight timing of when the Zerg would get his 4th expansion after 3 Base Mutaliks into 4 Base Lurker/Defiler/Ling army that the Terran have to stop by using a 3 Tank/1 SV expansion. The Zerg would try to attempt to snipe the Science in order to let the Lurkers defend that 4th base by "bombing" the first science vessel with Mutalisk/Scourge as the SV was strong enough to kill one Lurker and the time was so tight for the Zerg that he won't have that much Lurker so every single Lurker counts in the composition.
T'was on knife's edge. We need to recreate that magic and expand upon it instead of going to the other way.
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On January 28 2014 06:20 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 05:27 Piy wrote:On January 28 2014 05:14 Ramiz1989 wrote:On January 28 2014 05:09 Dragonm_sc2 wrote:
There was nothing wrong with the vessels before the patch the problem was the zerg not scourging the vessels.. I love these posts. Of course, because you can ALWAYS destroy SVs with Scourges when there is 120 supply of bio beneath those SVs. This is the kind of attitude people need to stop having about this mod. Yes, you can scourge vessels that are supported by bio through good lurker and ling positioning. It's actually easier in sc2 because of the splash the scourge do and the natural clumping of the science vessels. Go watch a bw VOD of TvZ and you'll see what I mean. + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +The Iris vs GGplay one, from about 19 minutes onward, is a good illustration of why I disagree that vessel vs defiler made for a stale metagame. The Jaedong vs Fantasy game showcased excellent scourge use against vessels all game long, and also allowed for a crazy turn around due to excellent play from the winner. Why are you always comparing this to the BW? It isn't easier here to snipe SVs, it is harder because of AI that units have and how Marines will not bug themselves out but will automatically target Scourges, and it is easier to control pack of SVs and Marines. You can even Irradiate pack of Scourges here and get them all killed just because with smart-casting it is that easy. I don't have the problems with Irradiate doing 120 or 150 or 180 damage, I have a problem with comment like "people aren't killing SVs with Scourges enough" that are just straight stupid. You can't always do that, while you can just Irradiate everything in your sight most of the time. Also, I completely understand why they nerfed Irradiate, as Hider said. I am mostly neutral about it because people didn't give it time at all and are already screaming about balance for the Mod that is in the beta.
You seem angry to me. The ability to snipe vessels with scourge was one of the highest level skills required in ZvT in BW. Scourges are perhaps targeted less efficiently in Starbow, I'm not sure, but marines certainly didn't bug out in bw and refuse to target scourge. Scourge died very easily if there were marines there to kill them.
Seriously - if you were any good at all at ZvT in BW you had map specific strategies for flanking bio and sniping vessels. You could also irradiate scourge like that in BW, but it was generally not worth it if the zerg was any good.
When I read posts like this, I just read someone saying that something is hard and that they don't like how hard it is and that they think a nerf would be better for their enjoyment than perhaps just them learning the game better.
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On January 28 2014 07:01 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 06:56 knOxStarcraft wrote:I'm not really seeing any increase in people playing Starbow I thought tons of people would be flooding the chat channels by now. Maybe because there is no ladder system yet? I think it's because most relevant people haven't heard about it yet. Nobody on reddit actually plays the game, mind you. There is just the small group of people reading this thread. Also, the game isn't finished yet, a lot of people won't play unless there are pros playing and there is an established ladder & meta. (we are the pioneers :p ) I don't mind though, as long as I can find someone to play with within five minutes it's good enough. Because Starbow is smaller and more social usually if you get a good game you can ask for a few rematches, so finding games is actually easy in that respect.
There are only 45 people in the starbow chat right now though lol. That's an absurdly small amount of people considering how good the game is.
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On January 28 2014 07:17 knOxStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 07:01 Grumbels wrote:On January 28 2014 06:56 knOxStarcraft wrote:I'm not really seeing any increase in people playing Starbow I thought tons of people would be flooding the chat channels by now. Maybe because there is no ladder system yet? I think it's because most relevant people haven't heard about it yet. Nobody on reddit actually plays the game, mind you. There is just the small group of people reading this thread. Also, the game isn't finished yet, a lot of people won't play unless there are pros playing and there is an established ladder & meta. (we are the pioneers :p ) I don't mind though, as long as I can find someone to play with within five minutes it's good enough. Because Starbow is smaller and more social usually if you get a good game you can ask for a few rematches, so finding games is actually easy in that respect. There are only 45 people in the starbow chat right now though lol. That's an absurdly small amount of people considering how good the game is.
edit: I am going to assume NA server.
How is EU?
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On January 28 2014 06:20 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 05:27 Piy wrote:On January 28 2014 05:14 Ramiz1989 wrote:On January 28 2014 05:09 Dragonm_sc2 wrote:
There was nothing wrong with the vessels before the patch the problem was the zerg not scourging the vessels.. I love these posts. Of course, because you can ALWAYS destroy SVs with Scourges when there is 120 supply of bio beneath those SVs. This is the kind of attitude people need to stop having about this mod. Yes, you can scourge vessels that are supported by bio through good lurker and ling positioning. It's actually easier in sc2 because of the splash the scourge do and the natural clumping of the science vessels. Go watch a bw VOD of TvZ and you'll see what I mean. + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +The Iris vs GGplay one, from about 19 minutes onward, is a good illustration of why I disagree that vessel vs defiler made for a stale metagame. The Jaedong vs Fantasy game showcased excellent scourge use against vessels all game long, and also allowed for a crazy turn around due to excellent play from the winner. Why are you always comparing this to the BW? It isn't easier here to snipe SVs, it is harder because of AI that units have and how Marines will not bug themselves out but will automatically target Scourges, and it is easier to control pack of SVs and Marines. You can even Irradiate pack of Scourges here and get them all killed just because with smart-casting it is that easy. I don't have the problems with Irradiate doing 120 or 150 or 180 damage, I have a problem with comment like "people aren't killing SVs with Scourges enough" that are just straight stupid. You can't always do that, while you can just Irradiate everything in your sight most of the time. Also, I completely understand why they nerfed Irradiate, as Hider said. I am mostly neutral about it because people didn't give it time at all and are already screaming about balance for the Mod that is in the beta.
While there were some issues with unit AI in BW, the bolded part is a flat out lie. Its really frustrating to see people make stuff up about BW all the time, as if the game wasn't actually playable. If you watched Tasteless stream last night, you would see that he didn't have any trouble "fighting the interface" even though he hadn't played for a very long time.
Also if the marines automatically prioritize scourge (not sure if this is true or not), then send a bunch of banelings with scourge, and while the scourge are getting shot by marines you kill all the marines. The other thing is if this is the actual problem, then instead of nerfing irradiate, lower scourge priority.
You could also irradiate scourges in BW too, but it was much better to use defense matrix. Irradiating scourge is a complete waste of energy. It was hard to kill SVs with scourge in BW too, you just needed to learn the technique.
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On January 28 2014 07:15 Piy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 06:20 Ramiz1989 wrote:On January 28 2014 05:27 Piy wrote:On January 28 2014 05:14 Ramiz1989 wrote:On January 28 2014 05:09 Dragonm_sc2 wrote:
There was nothing wrong with the vessels before the patch the problem was the zerg not scourging the vessels.. I love these posts. Of course, because you can ALWAYS destroy SVs with Scourges when there is 120 supply of bio beneath those SVs. This is the kind of attitude people need to stop having about this mod. Yes, you can scourge vessels that are supported by bio through good lurker and ling positioning. It's actually easier in sc2 because of the splash the scourge do and the natural clumping of the science vessels. Go watch a bw VOD of TvZ and you'll see what I mean. + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +The Iris vs GGplay one, from about 19 minutes onward, is a good illustration of why I disagree that vessel vs defiler made for a stale metagame. The Jaedong vs Fantasy game showcased excellent scourge use against vessels all game long, and also allowed for a crazy turn around due to excellent play from the winner. Why are you always comparing this to the BW? It isn't easier here to snipe SVs, it is harder because of AI that units have and how Marines will not bug themselves out but will automatically target Scourges, and it is easier to control pack of SVs and Marines. You can even Irradiate pack of Scourges here and get them all killed just because with smart-casting it is that easy. I don't have the problems with Irradiate doing 120 or 150 or 180 damage, I have a problem with comment like "people aren't killing SVs with Scourges enough" that are just straight stupid. You can't always do that, while you can just Irradiate everything in your sight most of the time. Also, I completely understand why they nerfed Irradiate, as Hider said. I am mostly neutral about it because people didn't give it time at all and are already screaming about balance for the Mod that is in the beta. You seem angry to me. The ability to snipe vessels with scourge was one of the highest level skills required in ZvT in BW. Scourges are perhaps targeted less efficiently in Starbow, I'm not sure, but marines certainly didn't bug out in bw and refuse to target scourge. Scourge died very easily if there were marines there to kill them. Seriously - if you were any good at all at ZvT in BW you had map specific strategies for flanking bio and sniping vessels. You could also irradiate scourge like that in BW, but it was generally not worth it if the zerg was any good. When I read posts like this, I just read someone saying that something is hard and that they don't like how hard it is and that they think a nerf would be better for their enjoyment than perhaps just them learning the game better.
Yeah, especially the part where I said that I don't care if Irradiate is nerfed or stay as it is, especially that part indicated that I want it nerfed.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Mj2uXgA.jpg)
