EPTStarbow - Page 141
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Mensol
14536 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9341 Posts
They are the best choice against everything with severe limitations! Build time, energy based, high gas cost, super late tech, and need research to get their best abilities online. A unit that takes THIS much to get out and doing well should be amazingly strong. And its not like you can make Science Vessels the only unit in your army, you're usually only going to have few of these out. You'll never see somebody in a serious competitive game with 30 SVs and 10 marines. We don't see it that way though. Just because its a tier 3 unit doesn't imply that it should dominate all tier 2 support units. Obviously it should provide advantages, and IMO its advantages are still good enough for you to to want to get them in late game TvZ. | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Lncognit0
United States97 Posts
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BlueLanterna
291 Posts
On January 28 2014 01:22 Hider wrote: We don't see it that way though. Just because its a tier 3 unit doesn't imply that it should dominate all tier 2 support units. Obviously it should provide advantages, and IMO its advantages are still good enough for you to to want to get them in late game TvZ. Why don't you actually post the possible changes that your team is thinking about making so people are not talking about this issue in a vacuum with nothing to reference? It's easy to see why there are some complaints when a good option for taking care of big threats is nerfed and we don't see any ideas yet. | ||
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Zhadez10
Iceland39 Posts
On January 28 2014 01:17 Laertes wrote: The reason we changed irradiate seems to have to do with viewership. Starbow is supposed to be fun to play and to watch. It's not fun to watch the Mutas just get decimated, it's not exciting there's no way to prevent it. HOWEVER, I disagree with this philosophy because you can magic box in starbow. I think the change should be reverted because eventually, people will figure out that because of how the pathing system works, units spread proportionally to how far they are from each other. Let's say you select a larvae and fly around with your Mutas, pressing h will spread them out with a direct relationship to their selected larvae. I just wanna point out that this really isnt a nerf to dealing with muta clumps since irradiate has the same damage per second so unless you split really fast irradiate will be devestating to the muta clump, just like before. | ||
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HaRuHi
1220 Posts
On January 28 2014 01:29 BlueLanterna wrote: Why don't you actually post the possible changes that your team is thinking about. I think it is awesome that people are so involved in this mod, but I fear your demand would not contribute to productivity. :p | ||
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Nightsz
Canada398 Posts
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Zhadez10
Iceland39 Posts
On January 28 2014 01:21 Mensol wrote: I wouldnt mind if you delete both Roach and Marauder from game. I think they're good units. I especially love the roach, it is so cool with its tunnel ability ! | ||
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
On January 28 2014 01:29 BlueLanterna wrote: Why don't you actually post the possible changes that your team is thinking about making so people are not talking about this issue in a vacuum with nothing to reference? It's easy to see why there are some complaints when a good option for taking care of big threats is nerfed and we don't see any ideas yet. I don't think we will get anywhere if we discuss multiple possible changes with the whole community. You are free to post suggestions though, if they have potential we will discuss them. | ||
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TaShadan
Germany1960 Posts
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
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Grumbels
Netherlands7028 Posts
On January 28 2014 00:57 Big J wrote: I don't think the problem is that it would be "game breaking". It just overshadows too many other units, so your choices kind of looked like (obviously I'm exaggerating, but just to get the idea): best unit vs Mutalisk: 1.) SV 2.-4.) other units such as Marines, Goliaths, Vikings best unit to snipe important other units such as spellcasters: 1.) SV .... other units best unit against clumps of small units: 1.) SV .... best unit against ultralisks 1.) SV .... This kind of leads to Terrans just getting SVs because they are kind of the best choice against everything with no real downside. Now if the same scenario rather looks like: best unit vs Mutalisk: 1.) Viking 2.) SV ... best unit to snipe important other units such as spellcasters: 1.) SV .... best unit against clumps of small units: 1.) Tank 2.) Mines 3.) SV ... best unit against ultralisks 1.) Marauder 2.) Tank 3.) SV ... then this means the Vessel is still strong, but it's not always just "the obvious choice" to go Vessel. Which means you should mix your composition up a little bit. Of course this also requires that the units you get instead forces the opponent to adapt to you, but that's the whole idea behind having many semi-broad units that can fullfill multiple roles, some a little better, and some a little worse. I don't see the problem to be honest. I don't know why it should be a design goal to have such a diversified set of unit counters. As a terran you don't have infinite resources and you can't make that many starports without your ground army becoming too weak. And if the vessel cloud gets out of hand that's because you didn't force enough scourge hits. You want to deliberately gimp the unit just so that you don't even want to make it, instead of having a situation where you want to make it but can't because of resource constraints and so on. | ||
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plgElwood
Germany518 Posts
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TaShadan
Germany1960 Posts
On January 28 2014 01:52 plgElwood wrote: Starbow needs a good "ladder" to compete with SC2 atm. Where is it? There is none yet. I dont know if its possible to implement a ladder. An other solution might be something web based? | ||
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Censured
Czech Republic1059 Posts
starbow zerg | ||
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plgElwood
Germany518 Posts
Web based ladder would be okay. As TLO stated it in an older Interview: On ICCup you had to find an opponent in Chat, you HAD to be social, also if gave you the opportunity for an instant rematch or a Training partner, all you do now is mindlessly press a button, and most players press again and again, even if their games getting worse everytime and they hurt their own skill by repeating mistakes | ||
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cptjibberjabber
Netherlands87 Posts
closed due to TOS violation? | ||
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
On January 28 2014 00:52 SolidSMD wrote: We think the cause is that bio is not strong enough rather than irradiate nerfed from 180 damage to 120 making bioplay bad. Muta's still get wrecked by irradiate because the dps is the same and defiler still dies from irradiate (defiler has 80hp). The casting range of the defiler was buffed by 2 range, so I think it is a very weird train of thought to conclude that is now worse to use aggressively since you get off swarms easier. And you make it seem like the new irradiate is so bad that zergs can just ignore the vessel cloud... I don't even... Irradiate was (and still is to some extent) THE answer to everything zerg has, we have to make the other options of terran ridiculously overpowered to make them contend with the vessel. I mean, why would you make option A if it fights well vs X and Y if option B fights well vs X, Y and Z in an even better way than option A fights vs X and Y. We did not move away from keep everything OP at all, we just want to give some chance to the other units terran has, like the ghost. We are aware that bio is under-performing (partially due to bugs, like firebat with bugged aoe) and will try to fix that in the next patch. Science Vessel is the only effective way that bio can deal with dark swarm without changing the way dark swarm works. You can have as many marines, marauders and ghosts as you want (unless you nuke, which might have some utility I guess) you still can't break a zergs base when they have dark swarm. I don't know why you bring up it being significant that mutas get wrecked by irradiate. They don't pose any problems to any terran that knows how to play bio vs zerg. Having 2 more range doesn't make much practical difference to the ability to use defilers in the centre given that it is easier for terran to out manoeuvre swarm due to its low aoe. In BW defilers had a decent range and swarm had a good aoe and using them in the centre was still very difficult vs terran. It's largely true that zerg doesn't need to worry about the vessel cloud as much anymore. Terran can't amass enough vessels quickly enough to deal with lurkers under dark swarm. Generally, by the time a good zerg can have 4 base gas and ultras, a Terran will have 8-10 vessels. They don't have enough irradiates to deal with lurkers defending the two naturals since it takes twice as many irradiates now. Irradiate is now terrible against ultras. Once a 4 gas zerg gets ultras with +2 armour, cracklings and plague they will just roll a bio terran that's trying to rely on vessels. Make as many marauders as you want, it won't stand to defiler ultra, and at this late stage zerg can focus more on killing vessels as that is considerably easier with plague and crackling ultra harrassing terrans army. I've seen these scenarios play out many games now from both sides of the mu, and it makes for very dull static late games where Terran splits map and plays mass tank. I'd say that effectively outlines my position on the issue and responds to your points. Any counter arguments are welcome, I would like to see a more open discussion of this issue. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 28 2014 01:46 Grumbels wrote: I don't see the problem to be honest. I don't know why it should be a design goal to have such a diversified set of unit counters. As a terran you don't have infinite resources and you can't make that many starports without your ground army becoming too weak. And if the vessel cloud gets out of hand that's because you didn't force enough scourge hits. You want to deliberately gimp the unit just so that you don't even want to make it, instead of having a situation where you want to make it but can't because of resource constraints and so on. Then I don't know what the other units are doing in the game, if for all intents and purposes they are trumped by the Vessel. + Show Spoiler + Well, I'm not even against such game design. If a game is playable and fun with 5units per race, then remove the other ones, but then it either has to make up for lacking those strategic elements somehow else (e.g. deckbuilding) or shouldn't declare itself an RTS. But that's obviously something built very differently than Starcraft. And yes, actually I think that was the reason for the nerf. Building 2-4 Starports and dumping all your gas into SVs in the lategame wasn't that unreasonable. Your low tier resource dumps and the occasional support unit for them hardly limit your SV production. | ||
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