EPTStarbow - Page 139
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GuoJing
France30 Posts
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HaRuHi
1220 Posts
On January 27 2014 13:04 GuoJing wrote: As few people already said, i feel that yes, patching shouldnt be that fast. I would like to see personnally like maybe 1 or 2 more "big" patches then nothing for a few weeks maybe. Just because, when you look the RTS history, you will always find strategies that have been very strong for some weeks, then players learnt how to play against and the match up balance would eventually go closer to 50% (sometimes not, ofc). But these things need time ! I disagree, and agree. First, this is beta, second, small number tweaking is ok. The big number tweaking that actually affect design (Irradiate vs Lurkers) should be given more time, agreed. Third, this is a beta, I am glad they fix bugs fast, like firebat tripple dmg etc. Fourth, this is Beta, if you look at their patches, for example the reaver thingy, the reason they changed it was not because it was to strong, but because people did not ENJOY that they could not target fire their first shot, they changed it, but now it needs a little more tweaking, Go patch I'd say. Please give Zerg another option against spidermines than mutalisk, Hydralisk does not work in its current form, spine pushes are disabled by the unbuildable space on most maps. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19352 Posts
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On January 27 2014 12:58 Jagoti wrote: Couldn't you make the reaver shoot as soon as the player manually targets? In BW, Reaver auto target if you don't already target manually, there was a bit of delay. But that delay wasn't as long as 2 seconds. Its more like 1 second. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
Please give Zerg another option against spidermines than mutalisk, Hydralisk does not work in its current form, spine pushes are disabled by the unbuildable space on most maps. Hydras have higher range now than Spider mines that are manually activated, but I think AOE of Spider Mines are bugged vs medium units as they take 2 AOE instead of 1.5. It should be fixed soon hopefully. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On January 27 2014 11:37 HaRuHi wrote: Delicous troll bait, much esport person, so douche. Edit: And thats like, everyone agrees with you avilo, even the devs, give them time to find the perfect value for it. My intent wasn't to troll. Let me rephrase. Brood war has been out for over 12 years...TvZ in Starbow is obviously almost a replica or very similar to Brood War. So it's probably a very bad move to start changing essential things that defined an entire match-up, such as science vessel irradiate in TvZ. There was a reason irradiate stayed in the game as it was, and that's because it was necessary for cost efficiency in late game vs the ultra cost efficient hive tech units from Zerg, or even clumped mutas in mid-game. Just saying it's best to not mess with such things out of some ideal of "wanting it to play different." Just my opinion though, everyone has theirs. I said before in this thread that irradiate with smartcast is slightly more powerful than bw obviously, but clumped mutas also are slightly more powerful because of unlimited selection. And pro players have only started to test the waters in this mod for less than a month...but the balance had already been established between irradiate and mutas for over 12 years. That's all lol. On January 27 2014 11:45 SCST wrote: I've said it before in this thread, that I remember when he went on State of the Game and most of us (the audience) felt bad for him being bullied. Yet over time I've come to realized that this guy dishes out worse shit to people who don't deserve it than anything he ever received on that show. Anyone who wants to watch the vod after seeing Avilo's posts in this thread is welcome to do so with this new insight that he might of deserved the treatment he got. Here's a link: State of The Game 72 Hey, i'm just gonna derail your little circlejerk anti-avilo hate train before it gets on the rails. I posted in this thread as feedback because i like playing Starbow and think it's awesome what these guys made and wanted to add my 2 cents. Calm the fuck down take your hate trash to reddit where it belongs. | ||
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HaRuHi
1220 Posts
On January 27 2014 13:54 Hider wrote: Hydras have higher range now than Spider mines that are manually activated, but I think AOE of Spider Mines are bugged vs medium units as they take 2 AOE instead of 1.5. It should be fixed soon hopefully. Hider, It is six am here :< , I am going to pm you a replay tomorrow. Hydras have more range, but I assume they somtimes push each other so one gets too close and you lose instantly 5 of them. splitting my army threeways, because they are slower then vultures makes it hard to babysit each group and compared to muta play, there seems to be no incentive to go for hydras, makes zvt rather stale for me. @ avilo: Clumped mutas are also weaker vs irradiate, because there is no sane way to split them and Starbow is not BW, but we both know that. The way you expressed it was cocky for your standards and dickish for any person who does not know you :p Much love, no hard feelings, thanks for the rephrasing. | ||
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SCST
Mexico1609 Posts
On January 27 2014 14:13 avilo wrote: Hey, i'm just gonna derail your little circlejerk anti-avilo hate train before it gets on the rails. I posted in this thread as feedback because i like playing Starbow and think it's awesome what these guys made and wanted to add my 2 cents. Calm the fuck down take your hate trash to reddit where it belongs. You've been a dick to the developers more than once in the thread, calling them arrogant and other shit rather than just "adding your 2 cents". You also threw a tantrum when you didn't get what you wanted with regards to a balance change and then proceeded to spam the Starbow chat to prevent people from finding games. You're an absolute cancer to this community and your mediocre popularity does not shield you from being judged by your peers. And FYI: I wasn't on any "anti-avilo hate train" until you started posting in this thread and spamming the Starbow channel. In fact, I was actually vocally defending you against the hosts of State of the Game when they shat on you. I completely regret it after seeing your true colors so many months later, however. Don't even bother to try to make yourself look better man, people can just peruse through this thread and see for themselves. P.S. Take a hint from all the people calling you a dick in this thread and learn how to express yourself in a polite/normal manner. User was warned for this post | ||
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Danzo
2820 Posts
On January 27 2014 14:47 SCST wrote: You've been a dick to the developers more than once in the thread, calling them arrogant and other shit rather than just "adding your 2 cents". You also threw a tantrum when you didn't get what you wanted with regards to a balance change and then proceeded to spam the Starbow chat to prevent people from finding games. You're an absolute cancer to this community and your mediocre popularity does not shield you from being judged by your peers. And FYI: I wasn't on any "anti-avilo hate train" until you started posting in this thread and spamming the Starbow channel. In fact, I was actually vocally defending you against the hosts of State of the Game when they shat on you. I completely regret it after seeing your true colors so many months later, however. Don't even bother to try to make yourself look better man, people can just peruse through this thread and see for themselves. P.S. Take a hint from all the people calling you a dick in this thread and learn how to express yourself in a polite/normal manner. Can we please just focus on Starbow and not an anti-avilo drama thread. | ||
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SCST
Mexico1609 Posts
On January 27 2014 14:57 Danzo wrote: Can we please just focus on Starbow and not an anti-avilo drama thread. Yep, I think I've gotten it off my chest now.  | ||
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Doominator10
United States515 Posts
On January 27 2014 14:57 Danzo wrote: Can we please just focus on Starbow and not an anti-avilo drama thread. Hey hey hey! This is NOT the BattleNet forums! Moving on: Irradiate revert: +1 More sexy animation / sound effect for BattleCruiser Warp: +1 | ||
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WarAcid
Canada1 Post
I am in no way qualified to talk about balance/design, so I won't, but I'd like to voice my opinion about unit models. - The Swarm Guardian model and animations are amazing, and unfortunately never saw the light of day in sc2. I'd love to see it replace the Guardian. Just call it "Swarm Guardian" change the model and keep all the stats. To me, Guardian models never seem right in the sc2 engine or end up being lame and dull. - The Defiler is missing its BW swagger. The current version moves very much like a robotic lobster. It would be awesome if you could use the SC2BW model and animations. It has the classic defiler's wiggle movement that we all love. - Well done with the custom Protoss models they look great. Maybe consider the Oracle model for the Sentinel? Might confuse people though. I feel strongest about the Zerg suggestions so please consider the constructive criticism. | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On January 27 2014 15:30 Doominator10 wrote: Irradiate revert: +1 More sexy animation / sound effect for BattleCruiser Warp: +1 Could the time warp animation have the same color as BCs shots and yamato? | ||
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On January 27 2014 15:30 Doominator10 wrote: Hey hey hey! This is NOT the BattleNet forums! Moving on: Irradiate revert: +1 More sexy animation / sound effect for BattleCruiser Warp: +1 I don't know, I would like more to find a middle ground of the Irradiate(like 150-160 damage) where Lurkers could survive if they are on creep but it would kill Mutas and Guardians, than to revert it back to the previous patch. I think that with smart-casting Irradiate was too strong, so maybe there are other ways to nerf it without touching its damage but it will be hard. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
Brood war has been out for over 12 years...TvZ in Starbow is obviously almost a replica or very similar to Brood War. So it's probably a very bad move to start changing essential things that defined an entire match-up, such as science vessel irradiate in TvZ. That's actually exactly why we want to change it: Because we don't like that the Irradiate is such a big part of the TvZ matchup (and ofc pressing "r" 5 times on an a Lurker without giving the zerg a change to remicro isn't very fun micro). We want to balance the game in such a way that various choices are possible. Note that if you read my previous posts, I said that there very well might be short-term imbalances as a result of these changes. There was a reason irradiate stayed in the game as it was, and that's because it was necessary for cost efficiency in late game vs the ultra cost efficient hive tech units from Zerg, or even clumped mutas in mid-game. Yes but Defiler has already been nerfed quite a bit: I don't think terran got the worse end of the deal in the game. Irradiate is also barely nerfed against Mutalisks (same DPS). Just saying it's best to not mess with such things out of some ideal of "wanting it to play different." Just my opinion though, everyone has theirs. I said before in this thread that irradiate with smartcast is slightly more powerful than bw obviously, but clumped mutas also are slightly more powerful because of unlimited selection. I think sometimes it is important to have some perspective. Pre TB-hype we were just a bunch of guys who wanted to create a great game. We used BW as a core game as it has much more sound fundamentals than Sc2 and because we simply wouldn't have time to balance every single unit in the game without having something to fall back on. Even back then, we were discussing changes to Irradiate and Dark Swarm as we never have thought that these abilities worked optimally. We were just about to change them, but then TB happened and lots of people began playing Starbow. But never once did we say: "hey guys come play Starbow, its gonna have perfect balance during the beta and all abilities will have the same strenght as in BW." The Irradiate/Dark Swarm change was, however, delayed for a while as the new influx of players discovered new bugs and we also discovered that some damage values were unintentionally off, so we fixed that before. But as the new players began playing the game, we saw them doing the same thing we had deemed as optimal during our internal testings: Getting lots of SV's and Defilers. While its true that Scourges counter SV's, the important thing is that terran will continue to get SV's after the SV's have been killed by the Scourges, as he SV is still a superior in the mid/late game to terrans other support options. So I rather reverse the question: Why wouldn't we attempt to change it if that's what we believe will make the game better? We heard a lot of complaints on how nerfing Irradiate could impact imbalance, but most people haven't disagreed with me in the assessment that 5 times "R" on 5 Lurkers isn't fun micro. Neither has anyone directly said that having SV/Defiler as neccesity-units is great from a design-perspective. Our goal tbh isn't to balance the game the current couple of hundred guys that play Starbows right now, but instead we wanted to have the best designed game once Starbow is out of Beta. And I think, that if we were too scared too change anything from BW while we are in the beta, we might as well all stop working on Starbow right now. We don't make money from this, and instead our satisfaction comes from attempting to fulfill our (perhaps naive) dream that we can improve upon the parts of BW that we didn't think function optimally. But regarding the potential unintended consequence of nerfing the SV, we are hearing your feedback, and I think in the next design-patch we will have launched a "plan for" how we see the game being balanced without it. Thanks for reading. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
You have to be careful though. Blizzard felt that siege tanks lacked counters in bw, and they were wrong because tanks have a weakness in poor mobility, but nevertheless they did come up with the immortal and now you don't see tanks in TvP. For all intents and purposes, the science vessel worked in TvZ as it provided an effective way to limit the number of high tech units that the zerg could build up. I'm personally not a fan of the vessel in bw as I don't like the vessel cloud of dead that doesn't give any opportunity for counterplay, but I think it stills fulfills an important role to keep defiler&ultra numbers down. It also allows those two units to be really scary, and it shifts the zerg to more lower tech units, which help with defining the zerg's swarming style. Another question: are you happy with the way that the scourge works? I don't think you can perfectly replicate the pathfinding quirks that made the scourge such a cool unit in bw, so I'm wondering about the reception. | ||
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Gaius Baltar
United States449 Posts
look around, see 95 empty cubicles. everyone has gone home for chinese new year. look at clock, 10 pm. can probably fit it in one more game of starbow before the subway closes. *eyes narrow* | ||
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MWY
Germany284 Posts
 It doesn't even make any sense to call a modder arrogant for changing something. Or insult him in any way for that, because the perfect game is a vision in his mind that he pursues to achieve in his free time, not charging you for anything. Obviously there are things some people just can't or won't agree on, that does give you the right for feedback or critique, but not insults. You're insulting him on something he freely shared with you. He didn't force you to buy it, nor play it. So stfu. I quit SC2 a long time ago, but began watching starbow lately and I'm really thinking about starting SC2 again. Not for playing the original game ofcourse, that still is terrible. :D I just wanted to say thanks to the whole starbow team for spending their time on this project, and creating basically a new game, which is, in my opinion, more interesting and reasonable than SC2 every was. Altough I did not play it yet, I already enjoy watching it. | ||
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