EPTI mean, lets be reasonable here.
David Kim's Current Balance Thoughts - Page 56
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Daswollvieh
5553 Posts
I mean, lets be reasonable here. | ||
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imrusty269
United States1404 Posts
On January 23 2014 16:08 GolemMadness wrote: Let's all go crazy over a small sample size of games from the GSL! Meanwhile, terran has a 64% win rate in Proleague, while protoss has a win rate of 44%. But GSL matters a lot more. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On January 23 2014 16:08 GolemMadness wrote: Let's all go crazy over a small sample size of games from the GSL! Meanwhile, terran has a 64% win rate in Proleague, while protoss has a win rate of 44%. Not sure if this is a troll... GSL has larger sample size than PL in terms of TvP... | ||
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EthanS
United States206 Posts
We should, at this point, be asking "is the sample a valid representation of the whole"? And I think that we get very different answers for Proleague and GSL. GSL is all 1v1, and Starcraft2 is a 1v1 game. In GSL, each player wants to play their best game every game, with no other considerations. There's no "my team is down 0-2, time for a high-risk desperate cheese". In GSL, all players get a chance to play, without concern for roster order. So GSL is a pretty good representation of the state of the 1v1 game - and in 1v1, TvP, Terran is getting crushed. So, is GSL representative of all all top SC2? Probably - but really, the only counter-argument is that several high-profile Terrans play in NA, and if they were in GSL they'd be making it to CodeS. Are Taeja Polt and Heart better than all the terrans we've already see go down? Team play introduces lots of other considerations - matchups, metagames, rivalries, roster spots and play order, who is the "ace", who is available to play, who can snipe an opponent, who is signed, who is sulking, who is being punished by a coach... NONE of that factors into GSL. As such, Proleague is NOT representative of the 1v1 game. Thus, GSL tells us one of two things: Terran is seriously screwed right now, OR almost all the best Korean Terrans left Korea at the same time... but not the Zergs or Protoss. So if you want to argue that PvT is fine right now, you need to explain why only (or disproportionately) T left Korea, and not Z or P. | ||
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SeXyBaCk
Switzerland174 Posts
Maybe in WOL the ladder overall was balanced, but whoever watched GSL knew, two players that are of similiar caliber in their other two matchups the game would likely see the terran struggling. Now top tier terrans just flat out lose and look terrible against protoss players that haven't achieved anything in the game. Where were these players a year ago? Unless protoss makes some huge mistake like lose a bunch of their army through pathing problems the terran feels like they've already lost the game after it starts. I do not want to watch 18 protoss and 11 zerg flugging it out in ZvP late game with Zerg ultimately taking everything. The screwed up TvP balanced negatively effects protoss in that zerg only have to practice one late game matchup and turtle to the SH inf corr composition. It's just as much in Protosses interest that the TvP matchup is balanced. IMO balance today is at it's worst it ever was. At least during BL inf times timings could be hit to deny that zerg deathball. Bit by bit every viable timing of terran has been nerfed out of the game, so that protoss and zerg dominate anything past 15 minutes. How come all those patchzergs from late WOL have gone off the rails? Symbol? Curious? Can't win a game these days. This is what will happen to all these protoss once the balanced gets addressed. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12128 Posts
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On January 23 2014 17:15 SeXyBaCk wrote: I can't believe anyone still argues this. TvP in WOL felt 40-60 protoss favoured. TvP in HOTS at this stage feels 20-80 Protoss favoured. Maybe in WOL the ladder overall was balanced, but whoever watched GSL knew, two players that are of similiar caliber in their other two matchups the game would likely see the terran struggling. Now top tier terrans just flat out lose and look terrible against protoss players that haven't achieved anything in the game. Where were these players a year ago? Unless protoss makes some huge mistake like lose a bunch of their army through pathing problems the terran feels like they've already lost the game after it starts. I do not want to watch 18 protoss and 11 zerg flugging it out in ZvP late game with Zerg ultimately taking everything. The screwed up TvP balanced negatively effects protoss in that zerg only have to practice one late game matchup and turtle to the SH inf corr composition. It's just as much in Protosses interest that the TvP matchup is balanced. IMO balance today is at it's worst it ever was. At least during BL inf times timings could be hit to deny that zerg deathball. Bit by bit every viable timing of terran has been nerfed out of the game, so that protoss and zerg dominate anything past 15 minutes. How come all those patchzergs from late WOL have gone off the rails? Symbol? Curious? Can't win a game these days. This is what will happen to all these protoss once the balanced gets addressed. Curious is a patch zerg? | ||
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imrusty269
United States1404 Posts
On January 23 2014 17:15 SeXyBaCk wrote: I can't believe anyone still argues this. TvP in WOL felt 40-60 protoss favoured. TvP in HOTS at this stage feels 20-80 Protoss favoured. Maybe in WOL the ladder overall was balanced, but whoever watched GSL knew, two players that are of similiar caliber in their other two matchups the game would likely see the terran struggling. Now top tier terrans just flat out lose and look terrible against protoss players that haven't achieved anything in the game. Where were these players a year ago? Unless protoss makes some huge mistake like lose a bunch of their army through pathing problems the terran feels like they've already lost the game after it starts. I do not want to watch 18 protoss and 11 zerg flugging it out in ZvP late game with Zerg ultimately taking everything. The screwed up TvP balanced negatively effects protoss in that zerg only have to practice one late game matchup and turtle to the SH inf corr composition. It's just as much in Protosses interest that the TvP matchup is balanced. IMO balance today is at it's worst it ever was. At least during BL inf times timings could be hit to deny that zerg deathball. Bit by bit every viable timing of terran has been nerfed out of the game, so that protoss and zerg dominate anything past 15 minutes. How come all those patchzergs from late WOL have gone off the rails? Symbol? Curious? Can't win a game these days. This is what will happen to all these protoss once the balanced gets addressed. Both Curious and Symbol qualified for code S again. | ||
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samurai80
Japan4225 Posts
On January 23 2014 17:05 EthanS wrote: I'm tired of the "small sample size" rejoinder. Yes, a small sample size is a problem when the effect measured is small - it ends up within the margin of error. But given the humongous size of the disparities we're seeing in GSL, these samples may be large enough to draw some conclusions. We should, at this point, be asking "is the sample a valid representation of the whole"? And I think that we get very different answers for Proleague and GSL. GSL is all 1v1, and Starcraft2 is a 1v1 game. In GSL, each player wants to play their best game every game, with no other considerations. There's no "my team is down 0-2, time for a high-risk desperate cheese". In GSL, all players get a chance to play, without concern for roster order. So GSL is a pretty good representation of the state of the 1v1 game - and in 1v1, TvP, Terran is getting crushed. So, is GSL representative of all all top SC2? Probably - but really, the only counter-argument is that several high-profile Terrans play in NA, and if they were in GSL they'd be making it to CodeS. Are Taeja Polt and Heart better than all the terrans we've already see go down? Team play introduces lots of other considerations - matchups, metagames, rivalries, roster spots and play order, who is the "ace", who is available to play, who can snipe an opponent, who is signed, who is sulking, who is being punished by a coach... NONE of that factors into GSL. As such, Proleague is NOT representative of the 1v1 game. Thus, GSL tells us one of two things: Terran is seriously screwed right now, OR almost all the best Korean Terrans left Korea at the same time... but not the Zergs or Protoss. So if you want to argue that PvT is fine right now, you need to explain why only (or disproportionately) T left Korea, and not Z or P. It is not too much. But balance is something that takes time to evaluate, not only because of the small sample size by itself but because the metagame changes (that is players find solution by themselves). It may not happen and then Blizz will nerf P or buff T, but until now terrans have been good at turning an unfavorable metagame to a favorable one. Mech may be the answer, I dunno (well, from today's game in GSL, Stats was even one step ahead and already had a counter with carriers <3 ). | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3327 Posts
IMO balance today is at it's worst it ever was. At least during BL inf times timings could be hit to deny that zerg deathball. Bit by bit every viable timing of terran has been nerfed out of the game, so that protoss and zerg dominate anything past 15 minutes. 1 month of Terran not knowing what to do in PvT does not equal the Broodlordwar Era. RTS is almost self-balancing in the way that players who do worse, because of their race or certain "imbalances," figure out something new, in order to win. I don't like the approach of buffing units like the Ghost to tell players how they should play. | ||
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samurai80
Japan4225 Posts
On January 23 2014 17:46 ejozl wrote: 1 month of Terran not knowing what to do in PvT does not equal the Broodlordwar Era. RTS is almost self-balancing in the way that players who do worse, because of their race or certain "imbalances," figure out something new, in order to win. I don't like the approach of buffing units like the Ghost to tell players how they should play. This is precisely what I meant in my previous post. | ||
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On January 23 2014 17:48 samurai80 wrote: This is precisely what I meant in my previous post. Where were you when they nerfed hellbats and widowmines? | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On January 23 2014 17:46 ejozl wrote: 1 month of Terran not knowing what to do in PvT does not equal the Broodlordwar Era. RTS is almost self-balancing in the way that players who do worse, because of their race or certain "imbalances," figure out something new, in order to win. I don't like the approach of buffing units like the Ghost to tell players how they should play. I love how idealistic protoss icons get towards balance during times like these. Every single metagame shift in SC2 has come from patching. People called the queen patch bullshit from the start, it wasnt fixed through "self-balancing", it was fixed by HOTS. The same thing will eventually happen with current protoss, but hopefully we don't need to wait until LOTV. | ||
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DooMDash
United States1015 Posts
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On January 23 2014 17:46 ejozl wrote: 1 month of Terran not knowing what to do in PvT does not equal the Broodlordwar Era. RTS is almost self-balancing in the way that players who do worse, because of their race or certain "imbalances," figure out something new, in order to win. I don't like the approach of buffing units like the Ghost to tell players how they should play. It's insulting that you think that this has all come about simply cause of the Oracle speed boost. | ||
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samurai80
Japan4225 Posts
On January 23 2014 17:54 plogamer wrote: Where were you when they nerfed hellbats and widowmines? But they did buff mech/air upgrades. | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
which has done absolutely nothing for the MU that people care about, TvP. Yay! | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
Why don't we nerf the shit out of HT and buff carriers to compensate? Surely it will even itself out. | ||
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samurai80
Japan4225 Posts
On January 23 2014 17:58 Bagi wrote: I love how idealistic protoss icons get towards balance during times like these. Every single metagame shift in SC2 has come from patching. People called the queen patch bullshit from the start, it wasnt fixed through "self-balancing", it was fixed by HOTS. The same thing will eventually happen with current protoss, but hopefully we don't need to wait until LOTV. Hopefully it won't take that long of course. I just ask for a bit more patience. | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On January 23 2014 18:08 samurai80 wrote: Hopefully it won't take that long of course. I just ask for a bit more patience. You mean the issues that were present since HoTS beta isn't long enough time? | ||
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