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ImperialFist
790 Posts
On January 03 2014 10:39 shin_toss wrote: Lol too much terran tears. they cut down 20s FFS to the only protoss actual defense has and still crying also the photon overcharge will affect pvp the most i think haha as you say that the tears are flowing from your eyes :D | ||
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Ranari
19 Posts
1. The Crucio siege tank is a lot less powerful than the Arclite it replaced. 2. The Zealots were given charge upgrades to close the distance with siege lines. 3. The Immortal was born to soak up the siege damage. 4. The Colossus is significantly more mobile than the Reavers that it replaced, allowing it to engage the Terran frontlines much more quickly. 5. Because of the Crucio inferiority, it's a lot less effective against Archons. 6. Although siege tanks are actually fairly effective against Stalkers, the Blink ability allows them to move into position to start focus firing down siege tanks much more effectively. So pretty much everything about Protoss was conceptually designed to counter the Terran siege line, and because the siege tank is the backbone of the mech army, this makes Protoss extremely effective at dealing with them. Now let's talk about Zerg (where at least the siege tank has some teeth): 1. The Crucio is a lot less powerful than the Arclite it replaced. 2. The introduction of Banelings requires Terran to be substantially more mobile to properly counter; a luxury siege lines do not have. 3. Vipers effectively nullify mech with blinding cloud and abduction. 4. Widow Mines are just more versatile, more mobile, do more up front damage, and are cheaper and quicker to replace. So bringing back "da siege tank" is going to be a very difficult thing to do without rebalancing the game. And if you ask me, the state of the game is actually pretty good with the exception of mech (TvP). So what can we do? Here are some ideas, and feel free to shoot them down: 1. Borrow the Maelstrom Rounds upgrade from the single player campaign, perhaps. Blizzard introduced the Hellbat to help deal with Zealot charges, but the friendly fire damage from siege lines just aids Protoss in this case. This would also help assist with increasing the effectiveness of siege tanks against hyper-mobile zerg forces. 2. Play with increasing damage to shields as stated above. This would increase the effectiveness against Protoss but change nothing to other Terran and Zerg players (where mech isn't so pitiful in comparison). 3. I just can't see Vipers nullifying siege tanks with blinding cloud. Even modern day tanks have very advanced targeting systems that cut through smoke, dust, and darkness. I usually don't advocate individual unit nerfs, but Starcraft 2 takes place in the early 2500s. Every Terran and Protoss units are going to have targeting systems that cut through blinding cloud. But hey, fusing two souls together to form and Archon doesn't make [realistic] sense either, and that's part of the fun of the game! lol 4. Change the starting armor of the siege tank to 2. Currently it has 1, which is the same as a zealot and a marauder. I mean, it's a tank for crying out loud. It should be heavily armored! Note - I'm actually starting to see Thors mixed in with 4M gameplay against zerg nowadays. Note #2 - Yes, some of my suggestions are a bit on the radical side, but they're there to add ideas and get creativity going, not make the siege tank overpowered. | ||
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KingFool
Canada428 Posts
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ChoDing
United States740 Posts
WHY? WHY? LOL I CRY AS A SON OF AIUR | ||
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Twine
France246 Posts
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TwiggyWan
France328 Posts
Also nowadays people can run under tank fire, take two volleys but get out barely scratched, I'd prefer tanks to deal more flat damage with lower attack speed. Its frigging artillery damn it | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
I was under the impression that it was universally thought of as a bullshit ability, and the nerf is really minor anyway. | ||
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Enki
United States2548 Posts
I think Overcharge should still go down even more, maybe to 30 seconds or something. Still ridiculous how much time it can buy. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12045 Posts
On January 03 2014 11:24 Bagi wrote: Can't believe they are protoss players against a PO nerf. I was under the impression that it was universally thought of as a bullshit ability, and the nerf is really minor anyway. It's not minor at all. And just because you're nerfing the right thing doesn't mean you're doing it right (notice how a lot of terrans criticized the change). | ||
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blastyblast21
United States61 Posts
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movac
Canada494 Posts
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
Protoss when they got nerfed : "OUIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIN ! Dkim u a**hole ouin ouin *snif*". For real ? | ||
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
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neptunusfisk
2286 Posts
Nerf mutas, colossus and bio. Make 10 harvesters optimal. Everything will pan out well. And also remove brood lord and swarm host. edit: Also the attack delay (as shown by the "depth of micro" vid) should be totally removed, the overkill prevention as well and locking turrets should be enabled. So cool. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
I wish I could complain about not being able to go nexus first or triple nexus safely as much as some terran players complain about the mothership core. | ||
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Penguinator
United States837 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Roach burrow movement buff seems good too, will the 2.25 speed be that without roach speed too? Either way seems like (immortal) sentry pushes can be stopped quite well with burrow now. As for mech change i'd hate to see it by a ghost buff. Ghost buff reinforces bio more than mech probably. Few things I'd like to see: - Oracle changed from light to armored. This matters absolutely nothing in PvZ where the oracle is fine. It matters slightly for PvT where vikings become a bit better to stop oracles which can help mech a little. In PvP especially though it matters a lot where oracles can be stopped by stalkers a little easier, now oracle harass seems too dominant and especially if the msc is nerfed too I feel it may become too risky to expand once again in PvP (if it isn't already). - Tank changed to double shot, ie 2 x 18(+2) / 2x 25(+3) instead of 35(+3) / 50(+5). This would be a buff against immortals especially and a tiny buff against some other stuff plus a tiny nerf against ultralisks, exactly what would be needed to make the tank good in TvP without breaking it elsewhere. - Thor stronger anti-air, possibly ground damage weakened. Large problem of mech is that it's very difficult to produce anti-air quickly enough. For zerg it's a little too easy to (threaten to) do a mutalisk switch and protoss air is a little too difficult to counter too. Especially with the widow mine nerfed before there isn't just good enough AA from the factory I feel. Thor stronger against air gives terran a bit more options to respond to air, in return the ground attack can be nerfed a little so it won't be too good to just mix in a few thor and never worry about air. Mech isn't that far off now, just a few small nudges more and I think we can start seeing it regularely. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
1) Higher armored to siege tanks = bad. Siege tanks don't need higher damage vs armored, they need higher damage vs all things PROTOSS. More damage to armored will screw up TvZ/TvT in some way or another, where Mech is already pretty good there and wouldn't change much regardless. Instead of this, they simply need to give siege tanks more +damage to shields like they did for widow mines, then tanks will become a fearsome unit in this match-up that you cannot simply 1A and walk into like you currently can. Anyone that has played and tried to make mech work consistently for the longest time now...we all know the feeling of having an army already pre-sieged...and it gets completely walked over with zero micro from Protoss with immortals as if your army didn't exist. 2) Change to ghost EMP upgrade... To me this seems like a continuous cop out to tone down the immortal vs mech. The immortal has been overperforming and stopping mech from being good against Protoss for the longest time...instead of going around the issue, they simply need to tone down the immortal against Terran mech, by toning down hardened shields, or something else. This change basically just reeks of..."Hey, to make mech viable...we're gonna make you go bio!" lol How about making mech/factory units be consistently viable in the match-up...that would be amazing. 3) Armory Price reduction to BROOD WAR PRICE of 100/50 can help out mech a lot. If they want a step in the right direction, I will say this change for the millionth time. An issue with mech vs P is most games you will play the entire game upgrade handicapped with 1/1 vs 2/2 or sometimes you'll even be 1/1 vs 3/3. Affording factories, starport, raven, blueflame, transformation, and then armories + upgrades on top of that...it's a huge reason why mech is not good vs Protoss. You're forced to turtle to get infrastructure up vs early game all-ins. You always have to decide - do I want 2 more factories now? But then i guess i won't be upgrading this game... Or do you cut factories/raven and get double armory...which doesn't work. You cannot survive off of 1 factory and play "mech." Armory price to brood war price would be a huge step in the right direction. 4) Photon overcharge change. I want people to remember this post here and quote me when we see next patch TvP will be in just as bad of shape as it is now. This nerf does nothing to address the problem with the match-up - which is too many all-ins from Protoss, oracle too fast, and Terran has no all-ins available themselves. But more so, Terran has not enough viable openings. The reason no one ever sees cloak banshee opener in TvP, or any similar style is because of all the all-ins, because of oracles, but because photon overcharge is a 1 click button that from 13 range will shut down your banshee and then since you do not have a second CC and Protoss has a second nexus, you are behind if you even attempt cloakbanshee. Photon overcharge needs more than just a duration nerf imo. So yeh...i don't think the current thing they propose of ONLY reducing nexus cannon duration will make TvP any better. 40 seconds is still way too much. The best thing we can take from this though is that blizzard is going to attempt to balance the game again...TvP...  As for mech, I'm skeptical when they say they're taking feedback because myself, goody, strelok, htomario, other mech users etc. have given them feedback for months about mech TvP and none of it ever seems to be implemented or acknowledged in any way, shape, or form. | ||
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Disciple7seveN
France28 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12045 Posts
On January 03 2014 11:35 Faust852 wrote: Protoss when terrans cry : "you should get over it, protoss was weak for X years and we never bitched about it, blablabla, better players always win, blablabla". Protoss when they got nerfed : "OUIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIN ! Dkim u a**hole ouin ouin *snif*". For real ? Sounds like exactly what terrans do. It's almost as if we were all competitive human beings. Shocking, I know Oô | ||
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