EPTHow come SC2 results are so unpredictable? - Page 3
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LockeTazeline
2390 Posts
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Copymizer
Denmark2078 Posts
On December 11 2013 23:08 LockeTazeline wrote: No foreigners won a premier. That sounds fairly predictable. 10/10 | ||
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Dreamsmasher2
Canada38 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland11901 Posts
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TAMinator
Australia2706 Posts
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Scorch
Austria3371 Posts
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Darkhorse
United States23455 Posts
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
On December 11 2013 21:46 papaz wrote: My opinions: - Depth of micro is not enough - Whoever wins the first big fight tend to win the game - comebacks are virtually non existent - Units die too fast so it doesn't matter if you are Flash/Jaedong/Soulkey. If you happen to not pay attention for a sec enough units can be killed so that you more or less already have lost - Games reach max limits very fast. Macro is easy and not rewarding so players like Flash "can't outmacro" the opponent just as easy because the difference between the worst pro and best pro at macro isn't that big So I guess it's a combination of not enough depth and the volalite units vs too much dps. I think this guy answered the question pretty well. The first 3 points i've been saying for years. Not only is that bad for players but for spectators. How many times have we watched a 15min game of nothing but small pokes, everyone with anticipation of that battle (nothing more exciting after all) end in 10s, with no hope of comeback ? I would just say, however, that a lot of the automation that SC2 brough is good. I wouldn't want to have to do a lot of things that are nothing but mechanical boring actions like taking a probe when it spawns and putting it to mine. In that regard, SC2 is pretty good. However, the developers, i find, didn't find a balance between easy and hard. In SC2 there are things that are much easier than BW (rally points, shortcut keys, etc), but also much harder (1second distraction = gg because units die too fast). It makes SC2 a very volatile game, because, on the one hand, all the top players master the easy things to perfection, but the super hard ones, are actually too hard for them to be consistently good at. I always loved the potential of this game, but the developers' arrogance in thinking they know what they're doing, and fuck what we gamers think, is driving me, and i know for experience, many others away. It is very hard to change the way someone think, and in these years since Wings of Liberty came out, little did the developers change theirs. If i was Activision / Blizzard, i would consider hiring a new developer crew for the sake of this game. | ||
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tili
United States1332 Posts
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
- match-up/map - who are they playing and what's their history? - consistencies - where does the player normally finished? (Look back at the last several events) - consider patch notes and other changes - how do they normally lose if they were to lose? Anyway, there are a lot of players out there who are very consistent when it comes down to where they finish and how they lose. That's the most important thing to take away from this. | ||
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MrMatt
Canada225 Posts
On December 11 2013 23:08 LockeTazeline wrote: No foreigners won a premier. That sounds fairly predictable. 12/10 (did the extractor trick for you) | ||
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TLWINDRUNNER
36 Posts
On December 11 2013 21:35 urboss wrote:What do you think is the reason for this unpredictability of results? - Is the skill level required for Starcraft 2 too low? - Do the players that win tournaments relax too much after the win? - Are the random elements of the game (fog of war) the reason for random results? - Is the skill level of the top players too even because of the same training regimes? 1 | Whether mechanics influence the outcome of a match enough to allow superior players to overcome build order disadvantages against inferior players is subject to opinion. 2 | Everyone has off-days, everyone experiences ebb and flow in motivation, etc. 3 | Imperfect information obviously leads to randomness. 4 | Too even? What kind of wording of a question is this. That said, I'm not sure why you would mind unpredictability. I mean, I wouldn't mind if Flash played well, but I'd rather a noname won with amazing play than Flash or whoever won with mediocre play. For instance, the tournament Jaedong won recently. It's hard to get excited about that when his opponent managed to fucking lose with an enormous bo-advantage (JD 9 Pool 8 ling vs 10 Pool 6 ling), but that's slightly off-topic I guess - just my personal rant. | ||
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goody153
44020 Posts
- Working really hard doesn't pay of as much as broodwar since the skill cap is lower in sc2 due to lesser oppotunity to micro your heart out if your units are not named "marines" or "marauders". - Planning a series is incredibly important since you can outstrategies opponents with build orders who may be better than you. - Or maybe i am wrong and its just that there is kinda too many top players that i think the competition in the TOP is way too fierce and too close to call one player so dominating. - Mirror matches that is not tvt is kinda coinflippy. - It could be the never ending beta patch style of sc2 may hurt at times. Not saying that some of the patches are not needed like hellbat-nerf. - The meta game is still too young or still evolving unlike broodwar who had a decade of time for meta game to evolve. This is what i think at least anyways. | ||
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Caladan
Germany1238 Posts
In Short: - The skill ceiling in Sc2 is too low, so on top level everyone can beat everyone. Victories are determined by daily form, small advantages and luck. - Lack of scouting possibilities in early game leads to more all-in-play and build order wins/losses. - Lack of defender high ground advantage leads to more static game play and one-battle-takes-it-all games. You win one battle and your opponent needs to gg because there are barely possibilities to defend with fewer units against far more units. So, that's it. There cannot be something like a Bonjwa in SC2. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
I wouldn't call the game young, the patches just speed-up the process of evolving and the patches in BW dried up ages ago man lol. Blizzard could keep making changes and the game would just go in cycles forever. Anyway, like I said there are a lot of guys who are consistent especially at the top result wise and when a player does start to falter it's easy to make connections as to why. Reality is if you know your Starcraft you will make good predictions most of the time. | ||
opterown
Australia54783 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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imre
France9263 Posts
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On December 11 2013 22:29 mihajovics wrote: Ponomariov not world class??? what are you smoking??? he was an absolute prodigy with easily the potential to become the undisputed world champion, so sad that FIDE and Kasparov screw him over this bad, he could never recover psychologically. otherwise, I agree in principle, yet BW had the same system as SC2 and there were definitely a dominance of the top 3 (flash-jaedong-bisu), so it's probably a combination of the volatile nature of knock out tournaments and not enough depth / too much randomness in the game itself. EDIT: there are about 600 million people who know how to play chess, around 200 million who actively play it online, 2 million registered, competitive players... so being in the top 100 at any time in your career is definitely world class status I would say, and Ponomariov has been there constantly for the past 10 years With regards to the italics, this is somewhat false if we look at the most recent turn of events regarding the Individual Leagues. I've told people many times over that Bisu became irrelevant in Individual Leagues a long time ago. He hasn't qualified for a OSL/MSL since 2010 and guess what he died to in back-to-back prelims? Hydra busts. To this day, he still struggles against hydra busts. Flash didn't win the last few majors either. Fantasy and JangBi overrode the system. Jaedong is another character who kept getting knocked out in the late rounds for the MSL/OSL as well. In other words, they weren't really the dominant forces everyone knew in the end when it came to individual leagues. They still did well in Pro League, but their results were below expectations near the end of those leagues for BW. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 11 2013 23:43 opterown wrote: i find the thinly veiled BW elitism in some of these posts rather amusing I love the totally flawed argument: results not predictable = skill level on the game must be to low. Like people could predict Alliance being knocked out of MLG or Speed winning over DK, even with a stand in. Clearly Dota 2 is a low skill game because of these unpredictable outcomes. | ||
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