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What happend to trying new things with the Nydus. Talked about it when HotS just got into beta and then nothing. I was hoping to see stuff like small limited distance creep highways, time limited 1hp ramps for bane/ling to make flanking more viable, no gas cost if placed on hatchery creep. and no I think those things would necessarily be balanced in the live version rigth now.
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4713 Posts
On October 15 2013 18:44 VArsovskiSC wrote:
The good thing is that they finally started to realize that it was the Terran race that is screwed up at least a bit in it's core design..
Namely it's a 1-unit race and there isn't anything else that will take at least a part of their "role" that's a higher-tier unit.. I mean - simply - the reason we see Marauders is because and/or ONLY when Marines start to die in greater numbers because of the fact that the opponent has splash..
TvZ is/was a bad matchup because Mines were designed to be a bit too anti-Zerg favored.. Now it's even worse because once the Zerg (somehow) cleans-up the marine-mine "mess" at his doorstep and gets Ultras - Terran can't do a single thing to kill them.. I mean - Terran can't afford to produce any of the Ultralisk-killing units (such as Banshee for example) because Zerg has everything that needs to guard the Ultras already from before (units that were forced by the Terran earlier on with the parade) such as Mutas and Overseers, e.t.c.. Even more so - Terran just don't have anything else good vs the Mutalisks beside the Marines (maybe Thors or sth would do, but they're too expensive to afford as well..)
However - having that in mind - I suggest the following changes TBH:
1 - reduce mine splash radius, change the mine upgrade to "store" one more mine instead.. The upgrade change is to make the Mines almost at least viable vs Protoss in the late game.. It's a win-win situation IMO - Zerg won't suffer all the splash right-away from the first time, but if they stay another say 3-5 sec - the mines (if not cleaned up) will fire again.. vs Protoss the benefit of this is that Warp-in mechanics won't "negate" the mines completely, so at the end of the day - they WILL help for some of the positional i.e. - mech - play..
2 - Reduce the Thor cost - down to 250/175 or sth, but reduce it's HP down to like 350 as well.. I mean the Voidray is already 250/150, so won't do too much problems, the good point in this however is - there will be some "point" in mixing mech and bio - like vs Ultralisks in the very late game from Zerg for example
3 - Give the Banshee an upgrade to shoot at Air units at a very close distance, or any ability of the sort to say.. Maybe sth like a 3 range barrage for some energy cost with a bit of splash - then maybe - MAYBE - there would be a point of going some of the Air play if Ultras pop-out overall..
I mean it's a bit of rusty matchup situations that Terran can't afford tech-switches while in the same time the tech they choose may seem a bit too strong (at least DPS-wise, like the bio only for example) at certain stages of the game-play..
=======================================================
The proposed changes that are already - "MIGHT WORK" - like the mine splash reduction with the Tank-firerate buff (though I think it should be even greater - about 20% faster fire instead of 10% maybe), but if that doesn't do it's thing - I think that those are "about" the changes that would be required at the end of the day..
1 - reduce mine splash
2 - change mine upgrade to have mine capacity of 2 mines each able to fire 5 seconds one after another
3 - change Thor cost a bit, reduce it's HP
4 - give the Banshee a way to defend itself from Air targets (at least temporarily) for some energy cost a bit
What you said is so far from the truth that it hurts.
Terran is not, at its core a race of 1 A units, in fact it is the farthest from that model, Terran is the race of units that require the most babysitting to get value out of.
Marines, marauders and ghost melt to any sort of aoe, they require constant splitting and great care when advancing. That's why you see marine splitting, kitting and storm dodging, because otherwise the terran army would just melt.
And even the other units, tanks and mines are very positional in nature, they require a great deal of thought on how to optimally place to get the maximum results, and it takes a good deal of micro to achieve that positioning. The only true 1 A units are BCs and Thors.
And your suggestions don't actually improve the game, the mine nerf already seems unnecessary when you look at how good zergs have gotten lately at dealing with them, the Thor buff doesn't do anything, its still a borring 1 A unit, but now its just cheaper and the banshees are fine the way they are.
Banshees are interesting because they have clear strengths and weaknesses, they deal very good damage, but they must be microed for maximum potential and their lack of AtA weapons makes them really vulnerable once proper counters are out. And a short range AtA attack isn't going to help them at all, mutas will still shred them because of speed, regen and glaive bounce, vikings still obliterate them from a distance and, in the unlikely case toss builds a SG, phoenix still tear them apart.
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I like this widow mine change, its one of their more innovative balancing schemes.
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On October 15 2013 18:04 goody153 wrote:
i think this will happen if that would happen
nobody will make observers anymore in pvt ..
terran will have a harder time since in lategame tvp the only time i see terran is equalized with protoss is the moment toss loses his observers and ghost go clocking start bashing units .. .
the way i see it .. ghost clocking might be rendered useless
Well, the way I think about it (I'm advocating this change since HOTS release) Revelation+Envision means that if the Terran player has its ghosts spread out it is very unlikely to catch them all - and that's an interesting dynamic because it takes skill by both sides. Oracles cost 150gas, you can't just spam revelation/envision against a poke with a single ghost. Besides, oracles are soft-countered by ghosts - in an interesting way, since oracles are faster. I see a lot of potential.
Oh, and it is certainly better than the current design of Envision, which is the same as the observer's.
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can someone remind me the reloading time? i missed other change
it isn't 40 sec right? or those things would be pretty useless
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On October 15 2013 20:15 Garmer wrote:
can someone remind me the reloading time? i missed other change
it isn't 40 sec right? or those things would be pretty useless
40 seconds.
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so now they need 4 shoot per zealot, wtf?
build time is also 40 like always?
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On October 15 2013 20:20 Garmer wrote:
so now they need 4 shoot per zealot, wtf?
build time is also 40 like always?
no.
The listed damage amounts are based on Sentinel Missile's splash damage amount, not the single target damage. Hope this clears things up.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On October 15 2013 20:20 Garmer wrote:
so now they need 4 shoot per zealot, wtf?
build time is also 40 like always?
The talk was about splash, not main damage.
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On October 15 2013 12:54 AxionSteel wrote:
Terrans will really struggle mightily after this change goes through, and it sucks for them as its their profession, but as a viewer I don't really care. Bio/mine rallies are very boring to watch and this matchup, which was so good a couple of years ago, is far from being the best matchup in sc2 atm, it's terrible. Mass mutas flying around shitting over everything, or a bio/mine rally that may win a game, but increasingly not. It's bad. It was bad when terrans were dominating a couple of months ago, and it's bad now. Very one dimensional.
For the sake of this game as a spectator sport I don't mind seeing the change go through, hopefully terrans will experiment with new styles and strategies, maybe see more mech or various aggressive strategies instead of 3cc every game. In the short term it may suck, but in the long term, the game will be better for it.
the problem with mech is, that you´re playing the clock with it. I have a decent 2base mech allin. But I don´t want to bank the fate of a matchup on a 2base allin, because it will get figured out sooner or later.
And since zerg can hit hive very early in the game, especially against mech, it´s hard to establish, when it´s countered that hard.
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On October 15 2013 19:57 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 18:44 VArsovskiSC wrote:
The good thing is that they finally started to realize that it was the Terran race that is screwed up at least a bit in it's core design..
Namely it's a 1-unit race and there isn't anything else that will take at least a part of their "role" that's a higher-tier unit.. I mean - simply - the reason we see Marauders is because and/or ONLY when Marines start to die in greater numbers because of the fact that the opponent has splash..
TvZ is/was a bad matchup because Mines were designed to be a bit too anti-Zerg favored.. Now it's even worse because once the Zerg (somehow) cleans-up the marine-mine "mess" at his doorstep and gets Ultras - Terran can't do a single thing to kill them.. I mean - Terran can't afford to produce any of the Ultralisk-killing units (such as Banshee for example) because Zerg has everything that needs to guard the Ultras already from before (units that were forced by the Terran earlier on with the parade) such as Mutas and Overseers, e.t.c.. Even more so - Terran just don't have anything else good vs the Mutalisks beside the Marines (maybe Thors or sth would do, but they're too expensive to afford as well..)
However - having that in mind - I suggest the following changes TBH:
1 - reduce mine splash radius, change the mine upgrade to "store" one more mine instead.. The upgrade change is to make the Mines almost at least viable vs Protoss in the late game.. It's a win-win situation IMO - Zerg won't suffer all the splash right-away from the first time, but if they stay another say 3-5 sec - the mines (if not cleaned up) will fire again.. vs Protoss the benefit of this is that Warp-in mechanics won't "negate" the mines completely, so at the end of the day - they WILL help for some of the positional i.e. - mech - play..
2 - Reduce the Thor cost - down to 250/175 or sth, but reduce it's HP down to like 350 as well.. I mean the Voidray is already 250/150, so won't do too much problems, the good point in this however is - there will be some "point" in mixing mech and bio - like vs Ultralisks in the very late game from Zerg for example
3 - Give the Banshee an upgrade to shoot at Air units at a very close distance, or any ability of the sort to say.. Maybe sth like a 3 range barrage for some energy cost with a bit of splash - then maybe - MAYBE - there would be a point of going some of the Air play if Ultras pop-out overall..
I mean it's a bit of rusty matchup situations that Terran can't afford tech-switches while in the same time the tech they choose may seem a bit too strong (at least DPS-wise, like the bio only for example) at certain stages of the game-play..
=======================================================
The proposed changes that are already - "MIGHT WORK" - like the mine splash reduction with the Tank-firerate buff (though I think it should be even greater - about 20% faster fire instead of 10% maybe), but if that doesn't do it's thing - I think that those are "about" the changes that would be required at the end of the day..
1 - reduce mine splash
2 - change mine upgrade to have mine capacity of 2 mines each able to fire 5 seconds one after another
3 - change Thor cost a bit, reduce it's HP
4 - give the Banshee a way to defend itself from Air targets (at least temporarily) for some energy cost a bit What you said is so far from the truth that it hurts. Terran is not, at its core a race of 1 A units, in fact it is the farthest from that model, Terran is the race of units that require the most babysitting to get value out of. Marines, marauders and ghost melt to any sort of aoe, they require constant splitting and great care when advancing. That's why you see marine splitting, kitting and storm dodging, because otherwise the terran army would just melt. And even the other units, tanks and mines are very positional in nature, they require a great deal of thought on how to optimally place to get the maximum results, and it takes a good deal of micro to achieve that positioning. The only true 1 A units are BCs and Thors. And your suggestions don't actually improve the game, the mine nerf already seems unnecessary when you look at how good zergs have gotten lately at dealing with them, the Thor buff doesn't do anything, its still a borring 1 A unit, but now its just cheaper and the banshees are fine the way they are. Banshees are interesting because they have clear strengths and weaknesses, they deal very good damage, but they must be microed for maximum potential and their lack of AtA weapons makes them really vulnerable once proper counters are out. And a short range AtA attack isn't going to help them at all, mutas will still shred them because of speed, regen and glaive bounce, vikings still obliterate them from a distance and, in the unlikely case toss builds a SG, phoenix still tear them apart.
Will risk to be as "rude" as your reply was to my post.. Not because it was written in a badly manner or I feel offended, but because you didn't understand at all what I wanted to say..
I dind't say that Terran was a 1-A unit race..
I said that Terran is a 1-unit (i.e. - Marine-only) race.. The difference is huuuge my friend.. Problem is that every other unit that Terran has is designed for Marine support as opposed to work on it's own in some way (Banshee is the exception there, ofc. - only if the opponent doesn't have any air)..
So yah - make that difference in your head - between - 1-A, and Marine-only race.. I already understand that people are much more "burdened" with the 1-A concept, but still - Marine-only IMO is a problem (in it's own way) as well..
And TBH - even Blizz themselves know that the "Marine-only till get hard-countered" race is a problem as well - that's why they're trying to fix mech.. That may not be the only reason of why they wanna make mech work well, but surely is one of them..
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On October 15 2013 20:36 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 20:20 Garmer wrote:
so now they need 4 shoot per zealot, wtf?
build time is also 40 like always? no. Show nested quote +The listed damage amounts are based on Sentinel Missile's splash damage amount, not the single target damage. Hope this clears things up.
oh, ok
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On October 15 2013 20:53 VArsovskiSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 19:57 Destructicon wrote:On October 15 2013 18:44 VArsovskiSC wrote:
The good thing is that they finally started to realize that it was the Terran race that is screwed up at least a bit in it's core design..
Namely it's a 1-unit race and there isn't anything else that will take at least a part of their "role" that's a higher-tier unit.. I mean - simply - the reason we see Marauders is because and/or ONLY when Marines start to die in greater numbers because of the fact that the opponent has splash..
TvZ is/was a bad matchup because Mines were designed to be a bit too anti-Zerg favored.. Now it's even worse because once the Zerg (somehow) cleans-up the marine-mine "mess" at his doorstep and gets Ultras - Terran can't do a single thing to kill them.. I mean - Terran can't afford to produce any of the Ultralisk-killing units (such as Banshee for example) because Zerg has everything that needs to guard the Ultras already from before (units that were forced by the Terran earlier on with the parade) such as Mutas and Overseers, e.t.c.. Even more so - Terran just don't have anything else good vs the Mutalisks beside the Marines (maybe Thors or sth would do, but they're too expensive to afford as well..)
However - having that in mind - I suggest the following changes TBH:
1 - reduce mine splash radius, change the mine upgrade to "store" one more mine instead.. The upgrade change is to make the Mines almost at least viable vs Protoss in the late game.. It's a win-win situation IMO - Zerg won't suffer all the splash right-away from the first time, but if they stay another say 3-5 sec - the mines (if not cleaned up) will fire again.. vs Protoss the benefit of this is that Warp-in mechanics won't "negate" the mines completely, so at the end of the day - they WILL help for some of the positional i.e. - mech - play..
2 - Reduce the Thor cost - down to 250/175 or sth, but reduce it's HP down to like 350 as well.. I mean the Voidray is already 250/150, so won't do too much problems, the good point in this however is - there will be some "point" in mixing mech and bio - like vs Ultralisks in the very late game from Zerg for example
3 - Give the Banshee an upgrade to shoot at Air units at a very close distance, or any ability of the sort to say.. Maybe sth like a 3 range barrage for some energy cost with a bit of splash - then maybe - MAYBE - there would be a point of going some of the Air play if Ultras pop-out overall..
I mean it's a bit of rusty matchup situations that Terran can't afford tech-switches while in the same time the tech they choose may seem a bit too strong (at least DPS-wise, like the bio only for example) at certain stages of the game-play..
=======================================================
The proposed changes that are already - "MIGHT WORK" - like the mine splash reduction with the Tank-firerate buff (though I think it should be even greater - about 20% faster fire instead of 10% maybe), but if that doesn't do it's thing - I think that those are "about" the changes that would be required at the end of the day..
1 - reduce mine splash
2 - change mine upgrade to have mine capacity of 2 mines each able to fire 5 seconds one after another
3 - change Thor cost a bit, reduce it's HP
4 - give the Banshee a way to defend itself from Air targets (at least temporarily) for some energy cost a bit What you said is so far from the truth that it hurts. Terran is not, at its core a race of 1 A units, in fact it is the farthest from that model, Terran is the race of units that require the most babysitting to get value out of. Marines, marauders and ghost melt to any sort of aoe, they require constant splitting and great care when advancing. That's why you see marine splitting, kitting and storm dodging, because otherwise the terran army would just melt. And even the other units, tanks and mines are very positional in nature, they require a great deal of thought on how to optimally place to get the maximum results, and it takes a good deal of micro to achieve that positioning. The only true 1 A units are BCs and Thors. And your suggestions don't actually improve the game, the mine nerf already seems unnecessary when you look at how good zergs have gotten lately at dealing with them, the Thor buff doesn't do anything, its still a borring 1 A unit, but now its just cheaper and the banshees are fine the way they are. Banshees are interesting because they have clear strengths and weaknesses, they deal very good damage, but they must be microed for maximum potential and their lack of AtA weapons makes them really vulnerable once proper counters are out. And a short range AtA attack isn't going to help them at all, mutas will still shred them because of speed, regen and glaive bounce, vikings still obliterate them from a distance and, in the unlikely case toss builds a SG, phoenix still tear them apart. Will risk to be as "rude" as your reply was to my post.. Not because it was written in a badly manner or I feel offended, but because you didn't understand at all what I wanted to say.. I dind't say that Terran was a 1-A unit race.. I said that Terran is a 1-unit (i.e. - Marine-only) race.. The difference is huuuge my friend.. Problem is that every other unit that Terran has is designed for Marine support as opposed to work on it's own in some way (Banshee is the exception there, ofc. - only if the opponent doesn't have any air).. So yah - make that difference in your head - between - 1-A, and Marine-only race.. I already understand that people are much more "burdened" with the 1-A concept, but still - Marine-only IMO is a problem (in it's own way) as well.. And TBH - even Blizz themselves know that the "Marine-only till get hard-countered" race is a problem as well - that's why they're trying to fix mech.. That may not be the only reason of why they wanna make mech work well, but surely is one of them..
You are completely right. And the only thing why mech works so well in TvT is, that hellions/hellbats and Tanks counter marines. This could be solved with a stimpack nerf combinded with several buffs and changes to factory and starport units.
But this is a very complex thing and probably all units would have to be adressed here. The huge mistake was, that this hasn't been done with HotS, because now it's very hard to do.
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Widowmines made me stop playing sc2, i hope this bring the fun back
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On October 15 2013 18:50 Insoleet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 18:44 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 15 2013 18:40 Insoleet wrote:On October 15 2013 18:06 goody153 wrote:On October 15 2013 18:03 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 15 2013 02:38 a176 wrote:
All these random balance changes, most of them he doesn't even go through with, it seems like David Kim doesn't have a fucking clue what to do with this game anymore. If they were so fucking random you will see them in games. They are testing. And some don't go through because they are not good... After seeing the recents matches, WM nerf was too strong. I'm glad they are considering another approach. Is the tank buff still on ? Muta is still quite strong but you have to be able to get to them (and that's sometimes hard). But ... i don't know how you could nerf muta. If you get the regen, WM will be so powerfull against them... if you take a bit of speed, marines will shred them... damage nerf will be really strong too... I feal that a change in muta is not going to happen yep tank buff still on the testmap .. this is just an update on the testmap And what do you think Mech needs to be viable TvP ? I'm sure Blizzard would love to listen to Strelok and your thoughts about mech and what it needs to be viable and fun to watch (positionnal + no deathballish)... Strelok tried to write about it earlier this year, thought. Wait... The way you are talking to this guy and comparing to Strelok thought is ... is this the REAL Goody ? If I remember correctly it's the goody account... If I remember correctly.
buddy i am not the Goody who is a grandmaster in sc2 .. i am just a TL poster .. sorry if i got you confused
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On October 15 2013 19:07 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 18:50 Insoleet wrote:On October 15 2013 18:44 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 15 2013 18:40 Insoleet wrote:On October 15 2013 18:06 goody153 wrote:On October 15 2013 18:03 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 15 2013 02:38 a176 wrote:
All these random balance changes, most of them he doesn't even go through with, it seems like David Kim doesn't have a fucking clue what to do with this game anymore. If they were so fucking random you will see them in games. They are testing. And some don't go through because they are not good... After seeing the recents matches, WM nerf was too strong. I'm glad they are considering another approach. Is the tank buff still on ? Muta is still quite strong but you have to be able to get to them (and that's sometimes hard). But ... i don't know how you could nerf muta. If you get the regen, WM will be so powerfull against them... if you take a bit of speed, marines will shred them... damage nerf will be really strong too... I feal that a change in muta is not going to happen yep tank buff still on the testmap .. this is just an update on the testmap And what do you think Mech needs to be viable TvP ? I'm sure Blizzard would love to listen to Strelok and your thoughts about mech and what it needs to be viable and fun to watch (positionnal + no deathballish)... Strelok tried to write about it earlier this year, thought. Wait... The way you are talking to this guy and comparing to Strelok thought is ... is this the REAL Goody ? If I remember correctly it's the goody account... If I remember correctly. Mind blown 
i am not the Goody that you people are meaning .. i am just a TL poster .. dont misunderstand .. im not the grandmaster terran
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4713 Posts
On October 15 2013 20:53 VArsovskiSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 19:57 Destructicon wrote:On October 15 2013 18:44 VArsovskiSC wrote:
The good thing is that they finally started to realize that it was the Terran race that is screwed up at least a bit in it's core design..
Namely it's a 1-unit race and there isn't anything else that will take at least a part of their "role" that's a higher-tier unit.. I mean - simply - the reason we see Marauders is because and/or ONLY when Marines start to die in greater numbers because of the fact that the opponent has splash..
TvZ is/was a bad matchup because Mines were designed to be a bit too anti-Zerg favored.. Now it's even worse because once the Zerg (somehow) cleans-up the marine-mine "mess" at his doorstep and gets Ultras - Terran can't do a single thing to kill them.. I mean - Terran can't afford to produce any of the Ultralisk-killing units (such as Banshee for example) because Zerg has everything that needs to guard the Ultras already from before (units that were forced by the Terran earlier on with the parade) such as Mutas and Overseers, e.t.c.. Even more so - Terran just don't have anything else good vs the Mutalisks beside the Marines (maybe Thors or sth would do, but they're too expensive to afford as well..)
However - having that in mind - I suggest the following changes TBH:
1 - reduce mine splash radius, change the mine upgrade to "store" one more mine instead.. The upgrade change is to make the Mines almost at least viable vs Protoss in the late game.. It's a win-win situation IMO - Zerg won't suffer all the splash right-away from the first time, but if they stay another say 3-5 sec - the mines (if not cleaned up) will fire again.. vs Protoss the benefit of this is that Warp-in mechanics won't "negate" the mines completely, so at the end of the day - they WILL help for some of the positional i.e. - mech - play..
2 - Reduce the Thor cost - down to 250/175 or sth, but reduce it's HP down to like 350 as well.. I mean the Voidray is already 250/150, so won't do too much problems, the good point in this however is - there will be some "point" in mixing mech and bio - like vs Ultralisks in the very late game from Zerg for example
3 - Give the Banshee an upgrade to shoot at Air units at a very close distance, or any ability of the sort to say.. Maybe sth like a 3 range barrage for some energy cost with a bit of splash - then maybe - MAYBE - there would be a point of going some of the Air play if Ultras pop-out overall..
I mean it's a bit of rusty matchup situations that Terran can't afford tech-switches while in the same time the tech they choose may seem a bit too strong (at least DPS-wise, like the bio only for example) at certain stages of the game-play..
=======================================================
The proposed changes that are already - "MIGHT WORK" - like the mine splash reduction with the Tank-firerate buff (though I think it should be even greater - about 20% faster fire instead of 10% maybe), but if that doesn't do it's thing - I think that those are "about" the changes that would be required at the end of the day..
1 - reduce mine splash
2 - change mine upgrade to have mine capacity of 2 mines each able to fire 5 seconds one after another
3 - change Thor cost a bit, reduce it's HP
4 - give the Banshee a way to defend itself from Air targets (at least temporarily) for some energy cost a bit What you said is so far from the truth that it hurts. Terran is not, at its core a race of 1 A units, in fact it is the farthest from that model, Terran is the race of units that require the most babysitting to get value out of. Marines, marauders and ghost melt to any sort of aoe, they require constant splitting and great care when advancing. That's why you see marine splitting, kitting and storm dodging, because otherwise the terran army would just melt. And even the other units, tanks and mines are very positional in nature, they require a great deal of thought on how to optimally place to get the maximum results, and it takes a good deal of micro to achieve that positioning. The only true 1 A units are BCs and Thors. And your suggestions don't actually improve the game, the mine nerf already seems unnecessary when you look at how good zergs have gotten lately at dealing with them, the Thor buff doesn't do anything, its still a borring 1 A unit, but now its just cheaper and the banshees are fine the way they are. Banshees are interesting because they have clear strengths and weaknesses, they deal very good damage, but they must be microed for maximum potential and their lack of AtA weapons makes them really vulnerable once proper counters are out. And a short range AtA attack isn't going to help them at all, mutas will still shred them because of speed, regen and glaive bounce, vikings still obliterate them from a distance and, in the unlikely case toss builds a SG, phoenix still tear them apart. Will risk to be as "rude" as your reply was to my post.. Not because it was written in a badly manner or I feel offended, but because you didn't understand at all what I wanted to say.. I dind't say that Terran was a 1-A unit race.. I said that Terran is a 1-unit (i.e. - Marine-only) race.. The difference is huuuge my friend.. Problem is that every other unit that Terran has is designed for Marine support as opposed to work on it's own in some way (Banshee is the exception there, ofc. - only if the opponent doesn't have any air).. So yah - make that difference in your head - between - 1-A, and Marine-only race.. I already understand that people are much more "burdened" with the 1-A concept, but still - Marine-only IMO is a problem (in it's own way) as well.. And TBH - even Blizz themselves know that the "Marine-only till get hard-countered" race is a problem as well - that's why they're trying to fix mech.. That may not be the only reason of why they wanna make mech work well, but surely is one of them..
Excuse me then, I saw 1A race, not 1 unit race. yes totally different discussion.
And I do agree with you to some extent. Bio is a very self contained composition. However I think the problems are from both the design of the other races as well as the design of terran.
I'll use a BW example here because its the model I know that worked best.
In BW, you had marine, medic as the core of the army, and zerg had lings, when the game progressed into the mid game the zerg would add lurkers for space control, defense and offense, and terran added tanks to their composition to combat lurkers from a safe distance as well as for their own brand of space control, in the late game zerg got to defilers to be able to fight cost efficiently again with dark swarm and plague, meanwhile terran got to science vessel to counter defilers, masses of lings and other units. Finally the zerg would try and counter science vessels with scourge which, would be countered by marines.
I use the above example because it was a closed circular counter system but also because all tech trees where used by both sides, and both sides had some sort of space control the game had a clearly flow and an overarching game plan by both sides, but a lot of things could still happen in between.
That just doesn't exist in SC2 to the same extent, and its not only because bio is very efficient in and of itself, its also because the other races have very powerful tools to combat terran T3 and T2 options as well.
Yes you could say, redesign terran in such a way that as the game progresses, it becomes pivotal to add a small number of thors and ravens into the mix, but that requires a radical re-assessment of the balance of all other areas.
So yes, I agree with you, terran might be a bit too bio focused, but to be frank its not completely their fault, and again I'm not sure your suggested tweaks would change that.
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On October 15 2013 21:05 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 20:53 VArsovskiSC wrote:On October 15 2013 19:57 Destructicon wrote:On October 15 2013 18:44 VArsovskiSC wrote:
The good thing is that they finally started to realize that it was the Terran race that is screwed up at least a bit in it's core design..
Namely it's a 1-unit race and there isn't anything else that will take at least a part of their "role" that's a higher-tier unit.. I mean - simply - the reason we see Marauders is because and/or ONLY when Marines start to die in greater numbers because of the fact that the opponent has splash..
TvZ is/was a bad matchup because Mines were designed to be a bit too anti-Zerg favored.. Now it's even worse because once the Zerg (somehow) cleans-up the marine-mine "mess" at his doorstep and gets Ultras - Terran can't do a single thing to kill them.. I mean - Terran can't afford to produce any of the Ultralisk-killing units (such as Banshee for example) because Zerg has everything that needs to guard the Ultras already from before (units that were forced by the Terran earlier on with the parade) such as Mutas and Overseers, e.t.c.. Even more so - Terran just don't have anything else good vs the Mutalisks beside the Marines (maybe Thors or sth would do, but they're too expensive to afford as well..)
However - having that in mind - I suggest the following changes TBH:
1 - reduce mine splash radius, change the mine upgrade to "store" one more mine instead.. The upgrade change is to make the Mines almost at least viable vs Protoss in the late game.. It's a win-win situation IMO - Zerg won't suffer all the splash right-away from the first time, but if they stay another say 3-5 sec - the mines (if not cleaned up) will fire again.. vs Protoss the benefit of this is that Warp-in mechanics won't "negate" the mines completely, so at the end of the day - they WILL help for some of the positional i.e. - mech - play..
2 - Reduce the Thor cost - down to 250/175 or sth, but reduce it's HP down to like 350 as well.. I mean the Voidray is already 250/150, so won't do too much problems, the good point in this however is - there will be some "point" in mixing mech and bio - like vs Ultralisks in the very late game from Zerg for example
3 - Give the Banshee an upgrade to shoot at Air units at a very close distance, or any ability of the sort to say.. Maybe sth like a 3 range barrage for some energy cost with a bit of splash - then maybe - MAYBE - there would be a point of going some of the Air play if Ultras pop-out overall..
I mean it's a bit of rusty matchup situations that Terran can't afford tech-switches while in the same time the tech they choose may seem a bit too strong (at least DPS-wise, like the bio only for example) at certain stages of the game-play..
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The proposed changes that are already - "MIGHT WORK" - like the mine splash reduction with the Tank-firerate buff (though I think it should be even greater - about 20% faster fire instead of 10% maybe), but if that doesn't do it's thing - I think that those are "about" the changes that would be required at the end of the day..
1 - reduce mine splash
2 - change mine upgrade to have mine capacity of 2 mines each able to fire 5 seconds one after another
3 - change Thor cost a bit, reduce it's HP
4 - give the Banshee a way to defend itself from Air targets (at least temporarily) for some energy cost a bit What you said is so far from the truth that it hurts. Terran is not, at its core a race of 1 A units, in fact it is the farthest from that model, Terran is the race of units that require the most babysitting to get value out of. Marines, marauders and ghost melt to any sort of aoe, they require constant splitting and great care when advancing. That's why you see marine splitting, kitting and storm dodging, because otherwise the terran army would just melt. And even the other units, tanks and mines are very positional in nature, they require a great deal of thought on how to optimally place to get the maximum results, and it takes a good deal of micro to achieve that positioning. The only true 1 A units are BCs and Thors. And your suggestions don't actually improve the game, the mine nerf already seems unnecessary when you look at how good zergs have gotten lately at dealing with them, the Thor buff doesn't do anything, its still a borring 1 A unit, but now its just cheaper and the banshees are fine the way they are. Banshees are interesting because they have clear strengths and weaknesses, they deal very good damage, but they must be microed for maximum potential and their lack of AtA weapons makes them really vulnerable once proper counters are out. And a short range AtA attack isn't going to help them at all, mutas will still shred them because of speed, regen and glaive bounce, vikings still obliterate them from a distance and, in the unlikely case toss builds a SG, phoenix still tear them apart. Will risk to be as "rude" as your reply was to my post.. Not because it was written in a badly manner or I feel offended, but because you didn't understand at all what I wanted to say.. I dind't say that Terran was a 1-A unit race.. I said that Terran is a 1-unit (i.e. - Marine-only) race.. The difference is huuuge my friend.. Problem is that every other unit that Terran has is designed for Marine support as opposed to work on it's own in some way (Banshee is the exception there, ofc. - only if the opponent doesn't have any air).. So yah - make that difference in your head - between - 1-A, and Marine-only race.. I already understand that people are much more "burdened" with the 1-A concept, but still - Marine-only IMO is a problem (in it's own way) as well.. And TBH - even Blizz themselves know that the "Marine-only till get hard-countered" race is a problem as well - that's why they're trying to fix mech.. That may not be the only reason of why they wanna make mech work well, but surely is one of them.. You are completely right. And the only thing why mech works so well in TvT is, that hellions/hellbats and Tanks counter marines. This could be solved with a stimpack nerf combinded with several buffs and changes to factory and starport units. But this is a very complex thing and probably all units would have to be adressed here. The huge mistake was, that this hasn't been done with HotS, because now it's very hard to do.
Not necessarily stim-pack nerf (there are other ways to acheve that), but the fact that it is hard to fix - it is.. true.. but not impossible my friend.. That's why there are experimentations and PTR maps and/or patches to test the impact
And - as you can see - Blizz is trying to fix some of it with this patch.. (though think the list would be complete if few more buffs were incorporated like for example the one with the second-mine-charge that I suggested above - instead)
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On October 15 2013 21:13 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 19:07 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 15 2013 18:50 Insoleet wrote:On October 15 2013 18:44 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 15 2013 18:40 Insoleet wrote:On October 15 2013 18:06 goody153 wrote:On October 15 2013 18:03 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 15 2013 02:38 a176 wrote:
All these random balance changes, most of them he doesn't even go through with, it seems like David Kim doesn't have a fucking clue what to do with this game anymore. If they were so fucking random you will see them in games. They are testing. And some don't go through because they are not good... After seeing the recents matches, WM nerf was too strong. I'm glad they are considering another approach. Is the tank buff still on ? Muta is still quite strong but you have to be able to get to them (and that's sometimes hard). But ... i don't know how you could nerf muta. If you get the regen, WM will be so powerfull against them... if you take a bit of speed, marines will shred them... damage nerf will be really strong too... I feal that a change in muta is not going to happen yep tank buff still on the testmap .. this is just an update on the testmap And what do you think Mech needs to be viable TvP ? I'm sure Blizzard would love to listen to Strelok and your thoughts about mech and what it needs to be viable and fun to watch (positionnal + no deathballish)... Strelok tried to write about it earlier this year, thought. Wait... The way you are talking to this guy and comparing to Strelok thought is ... is this the REAL Goody ? If I remember correctly it's the goody account... If I remember correctly. Mind blown i am not the Goody that you people are meaning .. i am just a TL poster .. dont misunderstand .. im not the grandmaster terran
Oh ok No big deal. I love you too
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On October 15 2013 21:26 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 21:13 goody153 wrote:On October 15 2013 19:07 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 15 2013 18:50 Insoleet wrote:On October 15 2013 18:44 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 15 2013 18:40 Insoleet wrote:On October 15 2013 18:06 goody153 wrote:On October 15 2013 18:03 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 15 2013 02:38 a176 wrote:
All these random balance changes, most of them he doesn't even go through with, it seems like David Kim doesn't have a fucking clue what to do with this game anymore. If they were so fucking random you will see them in games. They are testing. And some don't go through because they are not good... After seeing the recents matches, WM nerf was too strong. I'm glad they are considering another approach. Is the tank buff still on ? Muta is still quite strong but you have to be able to get to them (and that's sometimes hard). But ... i don't know how you could nerf muta. If you get the regen, WM will be so powerfull against them... if you take a bit of speed, marines will shred them... damage nerf will be really strong too... I feal that a change in muta is not going to happen yep tank buff still on the testmap .. this is just an update on the testmap And what do you think Mech needs to be viable TvP ? I'm sure Blizzard would love to listen to Strelok and your thoughts about mech and what it needs to be viable and fun to watch (positionnal + no deathballish)... Strelok tried to write about it earlier this year, thought. Wait... The way you are talking to this guy and comparing to Strelok thought is ... is this the REAL Goody ? If I remember correctly it's the goody account... If I remember correctly. Mind blown i am not the Goody that you people are meaning .. i am just a TL poster .. dont misunderstand .. im not the grandmaster terran Oh ok No big deal. I love you too
i was worried that whatever i said will be taken account on the real Goody .. lol
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