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On October 15 2013 22:36 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 22:30 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 15 2013 22:24 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 15 2013 22:21 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 15 2013 22:17 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 15 2013 22:13 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 15 2013 22:03 VArsovskiSC wrote:On October 15 2013 21:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 15 2013 21:18 Destructicon wrote:On October 15 2013 20:53 VArsovskiSC wrote:
[quote]
Will risk to be as "rude" as your reply was to my post.. Not because it was written in a badly manner or I feel offended, but because you didn't understand at all what I wanted to say..
I dind't say that Terran was a 1-A unit race..
I said that Terran is a 1-unit (i.e. - Marine-only) race.. The difference is huuuge my friend.. Problem is that every other unit that Terran has is designed for Marine support as opposed to work on it's own in some way (Banshee is the exception there, ofc. - only if the opponent doesn't have any air)..
So yah - make that difference in your head - between - 1-A, and Marine-only race.. I already understand that people are much more "burdened" with the 1-A concept, but still - Marine-only IMO is a problem (in it's own way) as well..
And TBH - even Blizz themselves know that the "Marine-only till get hard-countered" race is a problem as well - that's why they're trying to fix mech.. That may not be the only reason of why they wanna make mech work well, but surely is one of them.. Excuse me then, I saw 1A race, not 1 unit race. yes totally different discussion. And I do agree with you to some extent. Bio is a very self contained composition. However I think the problems are from both the design of the other races as well as the design of terran. I'll use a BW example here because its the model I know that worked best. In BW, you had marine, medic as the core of the army, and zerg had lings, when the game progressed into the mid game the zerg would add lurkers for space control, defense and offense, and terran added tanks to their composition to combat lurkers from a safe distance as well as for their own brand of space control, in the late game zerg got to defilers to be able to fight cost efficiently again with dark swarm and plague, meanwhile terran got to science vessel to counter defilers, masses of lings and other units. Finally the zerg would try and counter science vessels with scourge which, would be countered by marines. I use the above example because it was a closed circular counter system but also because all tech trees where used by both sides, and both sides had some sort of space control the game had a clearly flow and an overarching game plan by both sides, but a lot of things could still happen in between. That just doesn't exist in SC2 to the same extent, and its not only because bio is very efficient in and of itself, its also because the other races have very powerful tools to combat terran T3 and T2 options as well. Yes you could say, redesign terran in such a way that as the game progresses, it becomes pivotal to add a small number of thors and ravens into the mix, but that requires a radical re-assessment of the balance of all other areas. So yes, I agree with you, terran might be a bit too bio focused, but to be frank its not completely their fault, and again I'm not sure your suggested tweaks would change that. In fairness, TvZ bio play uses units from all 3 tech trees as well and is the incorporation of barracks units, supported by aoe units from the factory and supported by flying spell casters in medivacs as the game progresses. Medic looks cooler than marauder Siege tank looks cooler than widow mine Science Vessels looks cooler than medivac But it's still the same dynamic as it was in BW tech wise. Hmmmm.. Then tell me what to do as Terran if nearly all you've got is Mines and Marines and Medivacs, at the moment when the Zerg makes several Ultras with more coming on the way ? Not really complete TBH, there's still more to it that's not yet made.. If you make Marine/Medic/Tank/Vessel in BW, I don't see why you won't make Marine/Maruader/Widowmine/Medivac in SC2 Well to be faire SV oneshot defiler. Tanks do absurb damage to low health unit, medic can blind detectors so ghosts can be used with this, vessel can EMP too... And you compare BW composition with SC2. But there's no lurker and composition MMTV is for lurker based army no ? Not sure i follow. Maybe i missed the start of your discussion. The guy was initially talking about terran bio play in BW being completely different than BW and my showing that compositionally they have a lot of similarities. He was trying to suggest that Bio play in SC2 is purely tier 1 while bio play in BW used the whole tech tree when in truth the SC2 bio tech tree simply doesn't use the Fusion Core and Nukes. He then commented about what happens if Ultralisks show up in which I reinstated my point that the Medivac and the Marauder are in the same tech tier and hence if he had made Medivacs in BW he could be making Maruaders in SC2 to prevent ultralisk transitions. The Zerg side of the discussion is not present afaik. Oh so i was completly not in the point... Like at all  Well that is kind of true. Your point is valid i think The soul of his point is still true despite the facts of the matter. Marauders are not as interesting as a rax based marine support as a medic. A medivac although arguably more useful and game breaking, is not as sexy a starport support unit as a science vessel. And, well, many people have talked about the Widowmine/Siege Tank discussion before so no need to elaborate. So although "facts" are on my side, I still lean heavily toward his opinion Oh i will never contradict BW over SC2 (as you can see in my sig :p).
I represented the "Zerg side" of things, and the other gentleman (Destruction) represented the "Terran side" of things.. Until it became the BW vs SC2 after comparison thing.. 
(though the point why did BW get mentioned is - did SC2 have the meta-matchup situation have well solved up, or didn't)
Just helping to not get derailed (if you wanted to proceed the discussion in any sort of way)..
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EDIT: Sorry friend, thought you were saying that you wouldn't discuss it, as - in terms - you weren't interested, but what you trully meant is that it wasn't the case, but prefered BW overall..
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On October 15 2013 02:41 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 02:38 a176 wrote:
All these random balance changes, most of them he doesn't even go through with, it seems like David Kim doesn't have a fucking clue what to do with this game anymore. Indeed. The tank"buff" does absolutely shit. Please buff the tanks properly...
Siege Tanks already destroy zerg gound units easily while marines counter Mutalisks. Widow Mines are just so damn cheap that you rarely see any Siege Tanks in TvZ.
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On October 15 2013 19:57 Destructicon wrote:
What you said is so far from the truth that it hurts.
Terran is not, at its core a race of 1 A units, in fact it is the farthest from that model, Terran is the race of units that require the most babysitting to get value out of.
Marines, marauders and ghost melt to any sort of aoe, they require constant splitting and great care when advancing. That's why you see marine splitting, kitting and storm dodging, because otherwise the terran army would just melt.
And even the other units, tanks and mines are very positional in nature, they require a great deal of thought on how to optimally place to get the maximum results, and it takes a good deal of micro to achieve that positioning. The only true 1 A units are BCs and Thors.
And your suggestions don't actually improve the game, the mine nerf already seems unnecessary when you look at how good zergs have gotten lately at dealing with them, the Thor buff doesn't do anything, its still a borring 1 A unit, but now its just cheaper and the banshees are fine the way they are.
Banshees are interesting because they have clear strengths and weaknesses, they deal very good damage, but they must be microed for maximum potential and their lack of AtA weapons makes them really vulnerable once proper counters are out. And a short range AtA attack isn't going to help them at all, mutas will still shred them because of speed, regen and glaive bounce, vikings still obliterate them from a distance and, in the unlikely case toss builds a SG, phoenix still tear them apart.
He didnt say it was a race of 1-a units. He said it was a race of ONE UNIT. Which definately has some truth to it.
Also I dont know if this minechange will nerf it at the highest level. Often mines cause significant friendly fire due to zerg knowing how to bait it. This will diminish that risk somewhat and so mutas wont have as easy time sniping mines (you can be closer to your own mines with the bulk of your army without risking losing all of it to splash if blings run in). While it may not nerf innovations tvz, It will still nerf tvz quite a bit at lower levels I bet.
The Thor is such a shitty unit, they ought to do SOMETHING to it at least. Just buff its AA tbh; one should be able to mech and have some decent AA from the ground.
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Well you know... now that banelings will hit our armies and not die outside the 1.25, at least we'll get all slimy and lubed up, so it'll be less painful to get FU*KED.
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On October 15 2013 22:41 VArsovskiSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 22:36 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 15 2013 22:30 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 15 2013 22:24 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 15 2013 22:21 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 15 2013 22:17 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 15 2013 22:13 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 15 2013 22:03 VArsovskiSC wrote:On October 15 2013 21:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 15 2013 21:18 Destructicon wrote:
[quote]
Excuse me then, I saw 1A race, not 1 unit race. yes totally different discussion.
And I do agree with you to some extent. Bio is a very self contained composition. However I think the problems are from both the design of the other races as well as the design of terran.
I'll use a BW example here because its the model I know that worked best.
In BW, you had marine, medic as the core of the army, and zerg had lings, when the game progressed into the mid game the zerg would add lurkers for space control, defense and offense, and terran added tanks to their composition to combat lurkers from a safe distance as well as for their own brand of space control, in the late game zerg got to defilers to be able to fight cost efficiently again with dark swarm and plague, meanwhile terran got to science vessel to counter defilers, masses of lings and other units. Finally the zerg would try and counter science vessels with scourge which, would be countered by marines.
I use the above example because it was a closed circular counter system but also because all tech trees where used by both sides, and both sides had some sort of space control the game had a clearly flow and an overarching game plan by both sides, but a lot of things could still happen in between.
That just doesn't exist in SC2 to the same extent, and its not only because bio is very efficient in and of itself, its also because the other races have very powerful tools to combat terran T3 and T2 options as well.
Yes you could say, redesign terran in such a way that as the game progresses, it becomes pivotal to add a small number of thors and ravens into the mix, but that requires a radical re-assessment of the balance of all other areas.
So yes, I agree with you, terran might be a bit too bio focused, but to be frank its not completely their fault, and again I'm not sure your suggested tweaks would change that.
In fairness, TvZ bio play uses units from all 3 tech trees as well and is the incorporation of barracks units, supported by aoe units from the factory and supported by flying spell casters in medivacs as the game progresses. Medic looks cooler than marauder Siege tank looks cooler than widow mine Science Vessels looks cooler than medivac But it's still the same dynamic as it was in BW tech wise. Hmmmm.. Then tell me what to do as Terran if nearly all you've got is Mines and Marines and Medivacs, at the moment when the Zerg makes several Ultras with more coming on the way ? Not really complete TBH, there's still more to it that's not yet made.. If you make Marine/Medic/Tank/Vessel in BW, I don't see why you won't make Marine/Maruader/Widowmine/Medivac in SC2 Well to be faire SV oneshot defiler. Tanks do absurb damage to low health unit, medic can blind detectors so ghosts can be used with this, vessel can EMP too... And you compare BW composition with SC2. But there's no lurker and composition MMTV is for lurker based army no ? Not sure i follow. Maybe i missed the start of your discussion. The guy was initially talking about terran bio play in BW being completely different than BW and my showing that compositionally they have a lot of similarities. He was trying to suggest that Bio play in SC2 is purely tier 1 while bio play in BW used the whole tech tree when in truth the SC2 bio tech tree simply doesn't use the Fusion Core and Nukes. He then commented about what happens if Ultralisks show up in which I reinstated my point that the Medivac and the Marauder are in the same tech tier and hence if he had made Medivacs in BW he could be making Maruaders in SC2 to prevent ultralisk transitions. The Zerg side of the discussion is not present afaik. Oh so i was completly not in the point... Like at all Well that is kind of true. Your point is valid i think The soul of his point is still true despite the facts of the matter. Marauders are not as interesting as a rax based marine support as a medic. A medivac although arguably more useful and game breaking, is not as sexy a starport support unit as a science vessel. And, well, many people have talked about the Widowmine/Siege Tank discussion before so no need to elaborate. So although "facts" are on my side, I still lean heavily toward his opinion Oh i will never contradict BW over SC2 (as you can see in my sig :p). I represented the "Zerg side" of things, and the other gentleman (Destruction) represented the "Terran side" of things.. Until it became the BW vs SC2 after comparison thing.. (though the point why did BW get mentioned is - did SC2 have the meta-matchup situation have well solved up, or didn't) Just helping to not get derailed (if you wanted to proceed the discussion in any sort of way).. ====================================================== EDIT: Sorry friend, thought you were saying that you wouldn't discuss it, as - in terms - you weren't interested, but what you trully meant is that it wasn't the case, but prefered BW overall..
Yep that was it no need to disccus 
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On October 15 2013 02:51 archwaykitten wrote:
Why not have revelation reveal cloaked or burrowed units as well? That seems like a more elegant solution, and it wouldn't be overpowered. The only unit I can really see it affecting is swarmhosts.
that could well be overpowered I think. It would help a lot against ghosts though...
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On October 15 2013 02:35 TheDwf wrote:
Still completely out of touch with the real world, weakening Mines without anything substantial to compensate when TvZ is already becoming Zerg-favored.
There is plenty of options in TvZ, but T are too focused on mines to exploit them. You can't know what mine-light play would fare when no good Korean do it.
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On October 15 2013 22:46 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 19:57 Destructicon wrote:
What you said is so far from the truth that it hurts.
Terran is not, at its core a race of 1 A units, in fact it is the farthest from that model, Terran is the race of units that require the most babysitting to get value out of.
Marines, marauders and ghost melt to any sort of aoe, they require constant splitting and great care when advancing. That's why you see marine splitting, kitting and storm dodging, because otherwise the terran army would just melt.
And even the other units, tanks and mines are very positional in nature, they require a great deal of thought on how to optimally place to get the maximum results, and it takes a good deal of micro to achieve that positioning. The only true 1 A units are BCs and Thors.
And your suggestions don't actually improve the game, the mine nerf already seems unnecessary when you look at how good zergs have gotten lately at dealing with them, the Thor buff doesn't do anything, its still a borring 1 A unit, but now its just cheaper and the banshees are fine the way they are.
Banshees are interesting because they have clear strengths and weaknesses, they deal very good damage, but they must be microed for maximum potential and their lack of AtA weapons makes them really vulnerable once proper counters are out. And a short range AtA attack isn't going to help them at all, mutas will still shred them because of speed, regen and glaive bounce, vikings still obliterate them from a distance and, in the unlikely case toss builds a SG, phoenix still tear them apart. He didnt say it was a race of 1-a units. He said it was a race of ONE UNIT. Which definately has some truth to it. Also I dont know if this minechange will nerf it at the highest level. Often mines cause significant friendly fire due to zerg knowing how to bait it. This will diminish that risk somewhat and so mutas wont have as easy time sniping mines (you can be closer to your own mines with the bulk of your army without risking losing all of it to splash if blings run in). While it may not nerf innovations tvz, It will still nerf tvz quite a bit at lower levels I bet. The Thor is such a shitty unit, they ought to do SOMETHING to it at least. Just buff its AA tbh; one should be able to mech and have some decent AA from the ground.
They did something. They buffed it's AA against anything not light greatly.
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Preferred the revelation range buff tbh as I don't think people burrowing/cloaking their units to avoid it was the real issue at hand (though I'd imagine given how zerg should always get burrowed the new change does allow the meta to even get to a point where revelation is used in your standard game), however the new mine nerf seems 1000 times better than the old one, I highly approve. Though I question whether we even need to nerf mines given that zvt is getting z favored which should result in terrans exploring new options anyways, but blizz has never been a fan of letting players figure issues out anyways.
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Isnt the whole point of a test map to be able to make abit more drastic changes? changing various things and then picking up the good changes from those, instead they are making small tweaks that will only keep the game sinking....
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On October 15 2013 23:16 Nyvis wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 02:35 TheDwf wrote:
Still completely out of touch with the real world, weakening Mines without anything substantial to compensate when TvZ is already becoming Zerg-favored. There is plenty of options in TvZ, but T are too focused on mines to exploit them. You can't know what mine-light play would fare when no good Korean do it.
Maybe you as great player could share those options with us? I never go 4M in TvZ. My win rate is a quite clear representation of that...
At least mech works reasonable vs toss. But vs zerg, not so much.
On October 15 2013 22:42 SlammerSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 02:41 Snusmumriken wrote:On October 15 2013 02:38 a176 wrote:
All these random balance changes, most of them he doesn't even go through with, it seems like David Kim doesn't have a fucking clue what to do with this game anymore. Indeed. The tank"buff" does absolutely shit. Please buff the tanks properly... Siege Tanks already destroy zerg gound units easily while marines counter Mutalisks. Widow Mines are just so damn cheap that you rarely see any Siege Tanks in TvZ.
I wish that was true, then I could win vs zerg.
Nice marines counter mutalisks. But I cannot keep streaming forward like with 4M when I got siege tanks. Result is that I am constantly on the backfoot defending vs mutas, instead of the other way around. And then you lose.
Also good to know my siege tanks destroy ultralisks. And that going mech is so great vs swarmhosts. Also I will inform my siege tanks to quit whining and just destroy those roaches while blinding cloud is casted on them.
Compared to WoL (bio-) mech is severely nerfed vs zerg. So I don't see why you would think it is so good against zerg now. And if iti s so awesome, and widow mines are even more awesome, how come terrans don't dominate but more get dominated?
On October 15 2013 23:17 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 22:46 Snusmumriken wrote:On October 15 2013 19:57 Destructicon wrote:
What you said is so far from the truth that it hurts.
Terran is not, at its core a race of 1 A units, in fact it is the farthest from that model, Terran is the race of units that require the most babysitting to get value out of.
Marines, marauders and ghost melt to any sort of aoe, they require constant splitting and great care when advancing. That's why you see marine splitting, kitting and storm dodging, because otherwise the terran army would just melt.
And even the other units, tanks and mines are very positional in nature, they require a great deal of thought on how to optimally place to get the maximum results, and it takes a good deal of micro to achieve that positioning. The only true 1 A units are BCs and Thors.
And your suggestions don't actually improve the game, the mine nerf already seems unnecessary when you look at how good zergs have gotten lately at dealing with them, the Thor buff doesn't do anything, its still a borring 1 A unit, but now its just cheaper and the banshees are fine the way they are.
Banshees are interesting because they have clear strengths and weaknesses, they deal very good damage, but they must be microed for maximum potential and their lack of AtA weapons makes them really vulnerable once proper counters are out. And a short range AtA attack isn't going to help them at all, mutas will still shred them because of speed, regen and glaive bounce, vikings still obliterate them from a distance and, in the unlikely case toss builds a SG, phoenix still tear them apart. He didnt say it was a race of 1-a units. He said it was a race of ONE UNIT. Which definately has some truth to it. Also I dont know if this minechange will nerf it at the highest level. Often mines cause significant friendly fire due to zerg knowing how to bait it. This will diminish that risk somewhat and so mutas wont have as easy time sniping mines (you can be closer to your own mines with the bulk of your army without risking losing all of it to splash if blings run in). While it may not nerf innovations tvz, It will still nerf tvz quite a bit at lower levels I bet. The Thor is such a shitty unit, they ought to do SOMETHING to it at least. Just buff its AA tbh; one should be able to mech and have some decent AA from the ground. They did something. They buffed it's AA against anything not light greatly.
Well the issue is currently mainly light air, so a buff against non-light isn't very useful. And while high impact is sometimes handy, it isn't that big of a buff, especially when targets are even slightly clumped.
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Complaining about sc2 muta counterattack seems silly when I still walls I turrets in the dozens were used in BW in all matchups. Sometimes the answer is to make 10-20 turrets in your main and natural: at least that's how BW responded to flocks of 11 mutalisks.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On October 15 2013 22:42 SlammerSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 02:41 Snusmumriken wrote:On October 15 2013 02:38 a176 wrote:
All these random balance changes, most of them he doesn't even go through with, it seems like David Kim doesn't have a fucking clue what to do with this game anymore. Indeed. The tank"buff" does absolutely shit. Please buff the tanks properly... Siege Tanks already destroy zerg gound units easily while marines counter Mutalisks. Widow Mines are just so damn cheap that you rarely see any Siege Tanks in TvZ.
I have no idea what game you're playing but it's definately not SC2.
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On October 15 2013 23:17 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 22:46 Snusmumriken wrote:On October 15 2013 19:57 Destructicon wrote:
What you said is so far from the truth that it hurts.
Terran is not, at its core a race of 1 A units, in fact it is the farthest from that model, Terran is the race of units that require the most babysitting to get value out of.
Marines, marauders and ghost melt to any sort of aoe, they require constant splitting and great care when advancing. That's why you see marine splitting, kitting and storm dodging, because otherwise the terran army would just melt.
And even the other units, tanks and mines are very positional in nature, they require a great deal of thought on how to optimally place to get the maximum results, and it takes a good deal of micro to achieve that positioning. The only true 1 A units are BCs and Thors.
And your suggestions don't actually improve the game, the mine nerf already seems unnecessary when you look at how good zergs have gotten lately at dealing with them, the Thor buff doesn't do anything, its still a borring 1 A unit, but now its just cheaper and the banshees are fine the way they are.
Banshees are interesting because they have clear strengths and weaknesses, they deal very good damage, but they must be microed for maximum potential and their lack of AtA weapons makes them really vulnerable once proper counters are out. And a short range AtA attack isn't going to help them at all, mutas will still shred them because of speed, regen and glaive bounce, vikings still obliterate them from a distance and, in the unlikely case toss builds a SG, phoenix still tear them apart. He didnt say it was a race of 1-a units. He said it was a race of ONE UNIT. Which definately has some truth to it. Also I dont know if this minechange will nerf it at the highest level. Often mines cause significant friendly fire due to zerg knowing how to bait it. This will diminish that risk somewhat and so mutas wont have as easy time sniping mines (you can be closer to your own mines with the bulk of your army without risking losing all of it to splash if blings run in). While it may not nerf innovations tvz, It will still nerf tvz quite a bit at lower levels I bet. The Thor is such a shitty unit, they ought to do SOMETHING to it at least. Just buff its AA tbh; one should be able to mech and have some decent AA from the ground. They did something. They buffed it's AA against anything not light greatly.
a) their buff to non-light air is generally useless
b) the problem is light-air.
conclusion: buff light-air AA and remove the current completely shitty ability.
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On October 15 2013 23:29 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Complaining about sc2 muta counterattack seems silly when I still walls I turrets in the dozens were used in BW in all matchups. Sometimes the answer is to make 10-20 turrets in your main and natural: at least that's how BW responded to flocks of 11 mutalisks.
Yes. Players needs to figure out those things. I would hope that blizzard does not patch the game so often.
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On October 15 2013 23:26 Sissors wrote:
Maybe you as great player could share those options with us? I never go 4M in TvZ. My win rate is a quite clear representation of that...
At least mech works reasonable vs toss. But vs zerg, not so much.
I have never ever seen mech work vs p without p messing up, imo it works better vs z by far (also shown by the fact that flash/gumiho have actually won games vs z on pro level meching while i haven't seen anyone at prolevel (i think last time was goody vs some random foreign toss on akilon at a dreamhack or smth and goody is not my definition of pro level) actually beat a toss meching. Your winrate doesn't mean shit for anything. Anything that happens in your games is completly meaningless when talking about balance. I wish people would realize that you literally have to play at the absolut top for balance to even slightly matter in your games.
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On October 15 2013 21:43 Nerevar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 19:51 nachtkap wrote:
What happend to trying new things with the Nydus. Talked about it when HotS just got into beta and then nothing. I was hoping to see stuff like small limited distance creep highways, time limited 1hp ramps for bane/ling to make flanking more viable, no gas cost if placed on hatchery creep. and no I think those things would necessarily be balanced in the live version rigth now. They're in the map editor, but the developers obviously decided against including them in the game. There is an interview floating around where Browder or Kim give some basic reasoning.
I found links to the bnet post where this was explained but the posts itself don't exist anymore. does anyone have an alternate source?
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Complaining about sc2 muta counterattack seems silly when I still walls I turrets in the dozens were used in BW in all matchups. Sometimes the answer is to make 10-20 turrets in your main and natural: at least that's how BW responded to flocks of 11 mutalisks.
10-20 turrets cost 1000-2000 minerals how terran is suppose to have those when they spend all the mineral in marines and mines already..... Ah yes taking more bases with mules but... no, they have to build 10 turrets for each new base -_-.
BW and SC2 are different in many points and economy is not comparable between the two.
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The reason I like the mine change and it's maybe a signal of hope for the future is that it's a change that :
A- makes senses. Closer you are more damage it does. Much better than what I was expecting something like "mines now do -15 damage to banelings." If you are a lower level player running into mines you won't see much difference but higher level players will.
B- it encourages micro/splitting. If you see a mine shot coming you can quickly try and spread units. Any change that rewards micro for the game is good.
Not sure why they are obsessed with oracle/toss harassment. Blizzard seems to have no clue on Protoss which I think is the most pressing issue right now, the race simply doesn't work right.
Lastly, I have said this before but please make transformation servos not only all hellbat/hellion change but reduce transformation time for Thor/Viking/tanks by half. That would be a great late game upgrade that would help mech play I think more than a damage buff. Thors would be more versatile, Vikings could he microed up and down for harass and help in battles, and tanks can be repositioned faster which helps vs blinding cloud and being caught out of position. It would be an all around buff to mech and mech's mobility that wouldn't change the game much at lower levels but make late game mech more fun to play/use/watch.
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On October 15 2013 23:36 Lorch wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 23:26 Sissors wrote:
Maybe you as great player could share those options with us? I never go 4M in TvZ. My win rate is a quite clear representation of that...
At least mech works reasonable vs toss. But vs zerg, not so much.
I have never ever seen mech work vs p without p messing up, imo it works better vs z by far (also shown by the fact that flash/gumiho have actually won games vs z on pro level meching while i haven't seen anyone at prolevel (i think last time was goody vs some random foreign toss on akilon at a dreamhack or smth and goody is not my definition of pro level) actually beat a toss meching. Your winrate doesn't mean shit for anything. Anything that happens in your games is completly meaningless when talking about balance. I wish people would realize that you literally have to play at the absolut top for balance to even slightly matter in your games.
It is true that my personal winrate doesn't say much. But it was in response to someone who said terrans dont do anything besides 4M. And still while around 1% of the terran pros mech vs zerg I wouldn't really call it viable.
On October 15 2013 23:29 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Complaining about sc2 muta counterattack seems silly when I still walls I turrets in the dozens were used in BW in all matchups. Sometimes the answer is to make 10-20 turrets in your main and natural: at least that's how BW responded to flocks of 11 mutalisks.
Terrans are already those who by far make most static defense in the normal game. Turret walls are often enough made. I never see a photon-cannon wall. Only extremely late game you get silly stuff like zergs changing all their drones into spines.
But what do you achieve by making 10 turrets in your main? 10 turrets spread out over your entire main do not stop a 20-30 muta flock. They just snipe them one at a time. 10 turrets clumped together probably does stop it. So now you need to invest thousands upon thousands of minerals in purely static defense, while the zerg can happily expand and kill you later.
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EPT
