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I'm fine with them nerfing widow mines.. if they reduce the friendly fire damage hah.
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The radius nerf of the widow mine is a joke.
I remember I told when they talked about that that was too huge, especially when they first to nerf it from 1.75 to 1.1.
Even 1.25 is too low and no terran would want to add tanks instead of widow mines since zerg are playing heavy mutas style and because of the power of vipers. The two spells of vipers make the tanks so useless and the little up of tank fire rhythm is useless and dont compensate the power of mutas and Vipers.
Tanks are dead and that was what David Kim and Justin bowder wanted to do and now they want to introduce mech play again.
Mech play is only viable in TVT and on WOL also vs zerg but not after Queen patch since zerg outmacro terran.
And anyway bio mines is very APM demanded and need a very well careful use since widow mine has friendly fire and you have to stim, split, hit and run to avoid mines fire and banelings hit so you can lose everything on a bad move.
And if you add siege tanks friendly fire lol, you will kill yourself your own army.
Also that s too compliacted to place well tanks, mines and move the bio and zerg can catch our army out of position and kill them all cause zerg army is very mobile.
At the beginning zergs thought mines were imba but right now they are learning to play and split they army ( as terrans does for 3 years to avoid baneling hits ) and to attack from many sides, to use overcyr in their army and sometimes use changelings.
Anyway if zergs use a bit the infestors even if got nerf ( and oh god thank blizzard to have done that after 1 year and half of imbastor broodlords era ) 3 or 4 can lock army and you can go with glings and the widow mines shots will kill glings but also bio who cannot move.
Remember the GSL match between DRG and Innovation.
Innovation even with a perfect without any mistake play lost vs DRG who played extremely well mutas glings.
So now the match is balanced, Zergs are complaining because they have to play from infestors broodlords a click spam F to mutas glings banelings ultras with many angles of attack, hit and run, detection, split and more careful attack.
Now they have to play as terran has to play from the beginning.
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On October 15 2013 19:51 nachtkap wrote:
What happend to trying new things with the Nydus. Talked about it when HotS just got into beta and then nothing. I was hoping to see stuff like small limited distance creep highways, time limited 1hp ramps for bane/ling to make flanking more viable, no gas cost if placed on hatchery creep. and no I think those things would necessarily be balanced in the live version rigth now.
They're in the map editor, but the developers obviously decided against including them in the game. There is an interview floating around where Browder or Kim give some basic reasoning.
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On October 15 2013 21:18 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 20:53 VArsovskiSC wrote:On October 15 2013 19:57 Destructicon wrote:On October 15 2013 18:44 VArsovskiSC wrote:
The good thing is that they finally started to realize that it was the Terran race that is screwed up at least a bit in it's core design..
Namely it's a 1-unit race and there isn't anything else that will take at least a part of their "role" that's a higher-tier unit.. I mean - simply - the reason we see Marauders is because and/or ONLY when Marines start to die in greater numbers because of the fact that the opponent has splash..
TvZ is/was a bad matchup because Mines were designed to be a bit too anti-Zerg favored.. Now it's even worse because once the Zerg (somehow) cleans-up the marine-mine "mess" at his doorstep and gets Ultras - Terran can't do a single thing to kill them.. I mean - Terran can't afford to produce any of the Ultralisk-killing units (such as Banshee for example) because Zerg has everything that needs to guard the Ultras already from before (units that were forced by the Terran earlier on with the parade) such as Mutas and Overseers, e.t.c.. Even more so - Terran just don't have anything else good vs the Mutalisks beside the Marines (maybe Thors or sth would do, but they're too expensive to afford as well..)
However - having that in mind - I suggest the following changes TBH:
1 - reduce mine splash radius, change the mine upgrade to "store" one more mine instead.. The upgrade change is to make the Mines almost at least viable vs Protoss in the late game.. It's a win-win situation IMO - Zerg won't suffer all the splash right-away from the first time, but if they stay another say 3-5 sec - the mines (if not cleaned up) will fire again.. vs Protoss the benefit of this is that Warp-in mechanics won't "negate" the mines completely, so at the end of the day - they WILL help for some of the positional i.e. - mech - play..
2 - Reduce the Thor cost - down to 250/175 or sth, but reduce it's HP down to like 350 as well.. I mean the Voidray is already 250/150, so won't do too much problems, the good point in this however is - there will be some "point" in mixing mech and bio - like vs Ultralisks in the very late game from Zerg for example
3 - Give the Banshee an upgrade to shoot at Air units at a very close distance, or any ability of the sort to say.. Maybe sth like a 3 range barrage for some energy cost with a bit of splash - then maybe - MAYBE - there would be a point of going some of the Air play if Ultras pop-out overall..
I mean it's a bit of rusty matchup situations that Terran can't afford tech-switches while in the same time the tech they choose may seem a bit too strong (at least DPS-wise, like the bio only for example) at certain stages of the game-play..
=======================================================
The proposed changes that are already - "MIGHT WORK" - like the mine splash reduction with the Tank-firerate buff (though I think it should be even greater - about 20% faster fire instead of 10% maybe), but if that doesn't do it's thing - I think that those are "about" the changes that would be required at the end of the day..
1 - reduce mine splash
2 - change mine upgrade to have mine capacity of 2 mines each able to fire 5 seconds one after another
3 - change Thor cost a bit, reduce it's HP
4 - give the Banshee a way to defend itself from Air targets (at least temporarily) for some energy cost a bit What you said is so far from the truth that it hurts. Terran is not, at its core a race of 1 A units, in fact it is the farthest from that model, Terran is the race of units that require the most babysitting to get value out of. Marines, marauders and ghost melt to any sort of aoe, they require constant splitting and great care when advancing. That's why you see marine splitting, kitting and storm dodging, because otherwise the terran army would just melt. And even the other units, tanks and mines are very positional in nature, they require a great deal of thought on how to optimally place to get the maximum results, and it takes a good deal of micro to achieve that positioning. The only true 1 A units are BCs and Thors. And your suggestions don't actually improve the game, the mine nerf already seems unnecessary when you look at how good zergs have gotten lately at dealing with them, the Thor buff doesn't do anything, its still a borring 1 A unit, but now its just cheaper and the banshees are fine the way they are. Banshees are interesting because they have clear strengths and weaknesses, they deal very good damage, but they must be microed for maximum potential and their lack of AtA weapons makes them really vulnerable once proper counters are out. And a short range AtA attack isn't going to help them at all, mutas will still shred them because of speed, regen and glaive bounce, vikings still obliterate them from a distance and, in the unlikely case toss builds a SG, phoenix still tear them apart. Will risk to be as "rude" as your reply was to my post.. Not because it was written in a badly manner or I feel offended, but because you didn't understand at all what I wanted to say.. I dind't say that Terran was a 1-A unit race.. I said that Terran is a 1-unit (i.e. - Marine-only) race.. The difference is huuuge my friend.. Problem is that every other unit that Terran has is designed for Marine support as opposed to work on it's own in some way (Banshee is the exception there, ofc. - only if the opponent doesn't have any air).. So yah - make that difference in your head - between - 1-A, and Marine-only race.. I already understand that people are much more "burdened" with the 1-A concept, but still - Marine-only IMO is a problem (in it's own way) as well.. And TBH - even Blizz themselves know that the "Marine-only till get hard-countered" race is a problem as well - that's why they're trying to fix mech.. That may not be the only reason of why they wanna make mech work well, but surely is one of them.. Excuse me then, I saw 1A race, not 1 unit race. yes totally different discussion. And I do agree with you to some extent. Bio is a very self contained composition. However I think the problems are from both the design of the other races as well as the design of terran. I'll use a BW example here because its the model I know that worked best. In BW, you had marine, medic as the core of the army, and zerg had lings, when the game progressed into the mid game the zerg would add lurkers for space control, defense and offense, and terran added tanks to their composition to combat lurkers from a safe distance as well as for their own brand of space control, in the late game zerg got to defilers to be able to fight cost efficiently again with dark swarm and plague, meanwhile terran got to science vessel to counter defilers, masses of lings and other units. Finally the zerg would try and counter science vessels with scourge which, would be countered by marines. I use the above example because it was a closed circular counter system but also because all tech trees where used by both sides, and both sides had some sort of space control the game had a clearly flow and an overarching game plan by both sides, but a lot of things could still happen in between. That just doesn't exist in SC2 to the same extent, and its not only because bio is very efficient in and of itself, its also because the other races have very powerful tools to combat terran T3 and T2 options as well. Yes you could say, redesign terran in such a way that as the game progresses, it becomes pivotal to add a small number of thors and ravens into the mix, but that requires a radical re-assessment of the balance of all other areas. So yes, I agree with you, terran might be a bit too bio focused, but to be frank its not completely their fault, and again I'm not sure your suggested tweaks would change that.
In fairness, TvZ bio play uses units from all 3 tech trees as well and is the incorporation of barracks units, supported by aoe units from the factory and supported by flying spell casters in medivacs as the game progresses.
Medic looks cooler than marauder
Siege tank looks cooler than widow mine
Science Vessels looks cooler than medivac
But it's still the same dynamic as it was in BW tech wise.
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On October 15 2013 21:18 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 20:53 VArsovskiSC wrote:On October 15 2013 19:57 Destructicon wrote:On October 15 2013 18:44 VArsovskiSC wrote:
The good thing is that they finally started to realize that it was the Terran race that is screwed up at least a bit in it's core design..
Namely it's a 1-unit race and there isn't anything else that will take at least a part of their "role" that's a higher-tier unit.. I mean - simply - the reason we see Marauders is because and/or ONLY when Marines start to die in greater numbers because of the fact that the opponent has splash..
TvZ is/was a bad matchup because Mines were designed to be a bit too anti-Zerg favored.. Now it's even worse because once the Zerg (somehow) cleans-up the marine-mine "mess" at his doorstep and gets Ultras - Terran can't do a single thing to kill them.. I mean - Terran can't afford to produce any of the Ultralisk-killing units (such as Banshee for example) because Zerg has everything that needs to guard the Ultras already from before (units that were forced by the Terran earlier on with the parade) such as Mutas and Overseers, e.t.c.. Even more so - Terran just don't have anything else good vs the Mutalisks beside the Marines (maybe Thors or sth would do, but they're too expensive to afford as well..)
However - having that in mind - I suggest the following changes TBH:
1 - reduce mine splash radius, change the mine upgrade to "store" one more mine instead.. The upgrade change is to make the Mines almost at least viable vs Protoss in the late game.. It's a win-win situation IMO - Zerg won't suffer all the splash right-away from the first time, but if they stay another say 3-5 sec - the mines (if not cleaned up) will fire again.. vs Protoss the benefit of this is that Warp-in mechanics won't "negate" the mines completely, so at the end of the day - they WILL help for some of the positional i.e. - mech - play..
2 - Reduce the Thor cost - down to 250/175 or sth, but reduce it's HP down to like 350 as well.. I mean the Voidray is already 250/150, so won't do too much problems, the good point in this however is - there will be some "point" in mixing mech and bio - like vs Ultralisks in the very late game from Zerg for example
3 - Give the Banshee an upgrade to shoot at Air units at a very close distance, or any ability of the sort to say.. Maybe sth like a 3 range barrage for some energy cost with a bit of splash - then maybe - MAYBE - there would be a point of going some of the Air play if Ultras pop-out overall..
I mean it's a bit of rusty matchup situations that Terran can't afford tech-switches while in the same time the tech they choose may seem a bit too strong (at least DPS-wise, like the bio only for example) at certain stages of the game-play..
=======================================================
The proposed changes that are already - "MIGHT WORK" - like the mine splash reduction with the Tank-firerate buff (though I think it should be even greater - about 20% faster fire instead of 10% maybe), but if that doesn't do it's thing - I think that those are "about" the changes that would be required at the end of the day..
1 - reduce mine splash
2 - change mine upgrade to have mine capacity of 2 mines each able to fire 5 seconds one after another
3 - change Thor cost a bit, reduce it's HP
4 - give the Banshee a way to defend itself from Air targets (at least temporarily) for some energy cost a bit What you said is so far from the truth that it hurts. Terran is not, at its core a race of 1 A units, in fact it is the farthest from that model, Terran is the race of units that require the most babysitting to get value out of. Marines, marauders and ghost melt to any sort of aoe, they require constant splitting and great care when advancing. That's why you see marine splitting, kitting and storm dodging, because otherwise the terran army would just melt. And even the other units, tanks and mines are very positional in nature, they require a great deal of thought on how to optimally place to get the maximum results, and it takes a good deal of micro to achieve that positioning. The only true 1 A units are BCs and Thors. And your suggestions don't actually improve the game, the mine nerf already seems unnecessary when you look at how good zergs have gotten lately at dealing with them, the Thor buff doesn't do anything, its still a borring 1 A unit, but now its just cheaper and the banshees are fine the way they are. Banshees are interesting because they have clear strengths and weaknesses, they deal very good damage, but they must be microed for maximum potential and their lack of AtA weapons makes them really vulnerable once proper counters are out. And a short range AtA attack isn't going to help them at all, mutas will still shred them because of speed, regen and glaive bounce, vikings still obliterate them from a distance and, in the unlikely case toss builds a SG, phoenix still tear them apart. Will risk to be as "rude" as your reply was to my post.. Not because it was written in a badly manner or I feel offended, but because you didn't understand at all what I wanted to say.. I dind't say that Terran was a 1-A unit race.. I said that Terran is a 1-unit (i.e. - Marine-only) race.. The difference is huuuge my friend.. Problem is that every other unit that Terran has is designed for Marine support as opposed to work on it's own in some way (Banshee is the exception there, ofc. - only if the opponent doesn't have any air).. So yah - make that difference in your head - between - 1-A, and Marine-only race.. I already understand that people are much more "burdened" with the 1-A concept, but still - Marine-only IMO is a problem (in it's own way) as well.. And TBH - even Blizz themselves know that the "Marine-only till get hard-countered" race is a problem as well - that's why they're trying to fix mech.. That may not be the only reason of why they wanna make mech work well, but surely is one of them.. Excuse me then, I saw 1A race, not 1 unit race. yes totally different discussion. And I do agree with you to some extent. Bio is a very self contained composition. However I think the problems are from both the design of the other races as well as the design of terran. I'll use a BW example here because its the model I know that worked best. In BW, you had marine, medic as the core of the army, and zerg had lings, when the game progressed into the mid game the zerg would add lurkers for space control, defense and offense, and terran added tanks to their composition to combat lurkers from a safe distance as well as for their own brand of space control, in the late game zerg got to defilers to be able to fight cost efficiently again with dark swarm and plague, meanwhile terran got to science vessel to counter defilers, masses of lings and other units. Finally the zerg would try and counter science vessels with scourge which, would be countered by marines. I use the above example because it was a closed circular counter system but also because all tech trees where used by both sides, and both sides had some sort of space control the game had a clearly flow and an overarching game plan by both sides, but a lot of things could still happen in between. That just doesn't exist in SC2 to the same extent, and its not only because bio is very efficient in and of itself, its also because the other races have very powerful tools to combat terran T3 and T2 options as well. Yes you could say, redesign terran in such a way that as the game progresses, it becomes pivotal to add a small number of thors and ravens into the mix, but that requires a radical re-assessment of the balance of all other areas. So yes, I agree with you, terran might be a bit too bio focused, but to be frank its not completely their fault, and again I'm not sure your suggested tweaks would change that.
True that, but I also think that probably Blizz themselves know that the mine-splash nerf isn't the whole package, but only the beginning of the process..
The mine-changes that I suggested for example are simple a "use of blank space".. Namely - if you already nerf the unit vs the Zerg race as it was intended in it's design in the first place (though I generally disagree the concept of adding a unit that's only good vs one of the other 2 races, i.e. - 1-purpose only unit), then why not buff it vs Protoss when possible already as well..
Though it's a long and rather maybe too much of a radical process - there are ways to do it and not necessarily with the ones that I suggested.. But I think that even DK knows that these currently stated changes aren't the whole package.. Pretty sure he's aware of that, but also - wants to add them in such ways that those will feel as final as possible while gradually doing them..
About the other race's units though - true that not completely Terran fault - I agree, but if you play ladder as random, and when doing it - the first 2 things you notice when playing random that ZvT is pretty damn hard (not saying TvZ is easy - didn't say that  ), and TvP is even harder as hell - then you can't not get to the conclusion that there's something wrong with the Terran race.. at least more than the other 2 of them
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On October 15 2013 21:43 Nerevar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 19:51 nachtkap wrote:
What happend to trying new things with the Nydus. Talked about it when HotS just got into beta and then nothing. I was hoping to see stuff like small limited distance creep highways, time limited 1hp ramps for bane/ling to make flanking more viable, no gas cost if placed on hatchery creep. and no I think those things would necessarily be balanced in the live version rigth now. They're in the map editor, but the developers obviously decided against including them in the game. There is an interview floating around where Browder or Kim give some basic reasoning.
In all honesty I'd rather have the old style Nydus + creep pooing overlords.
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On October 15 2013 21:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 21:43 Nerevar wrote:On October 15 2013 19:51 nachtkap wrote:
What happend to trying new things with the Nydus. Talked about it when HotS just got into beta and then nothing. I was hoping to see stuff like small limited distance creep highways, time limited 1hp ramps for bane/ling to make flanking more viable, no gas cost if placed on hatchery creep. and no I think those things would necessarily be balanced in the live version rigth now. They're in the map editor, but the developers obviously decided against including them in the game. There is an interview floating around where Browder or Kim give some basic reasoning. In all honesty I'd rather have the old style Nydus + creep pooing overlords.
Yeah those nydus... If Blizzard make them back into the game (i know they won't) i want carriers to launch void rays :p
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On October 15 2013 21:58 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 21:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 15 2013 21:43 Nerevar wrote:On October 15 2013 19:51 nachtkap wrote:
What happend to trying new things with the Nydus. Talked about it when HotS just got into beta and then nothing. I was hoping to see stuff like small limited distance creep highways, time limited 1hp ramps for bane/ling to make flanking more viable, no gas cost if placed on hatchery creep. and no I think those things would necessarily be balanced in the live version rigth now. They're in the map editor, but the developers obviously decided against including them in the game. There is an interview floating around where Browder or Kim give some basic reasoning. In all honesty I'd rather have the old style Nydus + creep pooing overlords. Yeah those nydus... If Blizzard make them back into the game (i know they won't) i want carriers to launch void rays :p
In fairness, it would need more than just a spotting overlord to make it
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On October 15 2013 22:00 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 21:58 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 15 2013 21:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 15 2013 21:43 Nerevar wrote:On October 15 2013 19:51 nachtkap wrote:
What happend to trying new things with the Nydus. Talked about it when HotS just got into beta and then nothing. I was hoping to see stuff like small limited distance creep highways, time limited 1hp ramps for bane/ling to make flanking more viable, no gas cost if placed on hatchery creep. and no I think those things would necessarily be balanced in the live version rigth now. They're in the map editor, but the developers obviously decided against including them in the game. There is an interview floating around where Browder or Kim give some basic reasoning. In all honesty I'd rather have the old style Nydus + creep pooing overlords. Yeah those nydus... If Blizzard make them back into the game (i know they won't) i want carriers to launch void rays :p In fairness, it would need more than just a spotting overlord to make it
Well... Overlord should be abble to spawn nydus directly or to morph into one then !
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On October 15 2013 21:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 21:18 Destructicon wrote:On October 15 2013 20:53 VArsovskiSC wrote:On October 15 2013 19:57 Destructicon wrote:On October 15 2013 18:44 VArsovskiSC wrote:
The good thing is that they finally started to realize that it was the Terran race that is screwed up at least a bit in it's core design..
Namely it's a 1-unit race and there isn't anything else that will take at least a part of their "role" that's a higher-tier unit.. I mean - simply - the reason we see Marauders is because and/or ONLY when Marines start to die in greater numbers because of the fact that the opponent has splash..
TvZ is/was a bad matchup because Mines were designed to be a bit too anti-Zerg favored.. Now it's even worse because once the Zerg (somehow) cleans-up the marine-mine "mess" at his doorstep and gets Ultras - Terran can't do a single thing to kill them.. I mean - Terran can't afford to produce any of the Ultralisk-killing units (such as Banshee for example) because Zerg has everything that needs to guard the Ultras already from before (units that were forced by the Terran earlier on with the parade) such as Mutas and Overseers, e.t.c.. Even more so - Terran just don't have anything else good vs the Mutalisks beside the Marines (maybe Thors or sth would do, but they're too expensive to afford as well..)
However - having that in mind - I suggest the following changes TBH:
1 - reduce mine splash radius, change the mine upgrade to "store" one more mine instead.. The upgrade change is to make the Mines almost at least viable vs Protoss in the late game.. It's a win-win situation IMO - Zerg won't suffer all the splash right-away from the first time, but if they stay another say 3-5 sec - the mines (if not cleaned up) will fire again.. vs Protoss the benefit of this is that Warp-in mechanics won't "negate" the mines completely, so at the end of the day - they WILL help for some of the positional i.e. - mech - play..
2 - Reduce the Thor cost - down to 250/175 or sth, but reduce it's HP down to like 350 as well.. I mean the Voidray is already 250/150, so won't do too much problems, the good point in this however is - there will be some "point" in mixing mech and bio - like vs Ultralisks in the very late game from Zerg for example
3 - Give the Banshee an upgrade to shoot at Air units at a very close distance, or any ability of the sort to say.. Maybe sth like a 3 range barrage for some energy cost with a bit of splash - then maybe - MAYBE - there would be a point of going some of the Air play if Ultras pop-out overall..
I mean it's a bit of rusty matchup situations that Terran can't afford tech-switches while in the same time the tech they choose may seem a bit too strong (at least DPS-wise, like the bio only for example) at certain stages of the game-play..
=======================================================
The proposed changes that are already - "MIGHT WORK" - like the mine splash reduction with the Tank-firerate buff (though I think it should be even greater - about 20% faster fire instead of 10% maybe), but if that doesn't do it's thing - I think that those are "about" the changes that would be required at the end of the day..
1 - reduce mine splash
2 - change mine upgrade to have mine capacity of 2 mines each able to fire 5 seconds one after another
3 - change Thor cost a bit, reduce it's HP
4 - give the Banshee a way to defend itself from Air targets (at least temporarily) for some energy cost a bit What you said is so far from the truth that it hurts. Terran is not, at its core a race of 1 A units, in fact it is the farthest from that model, Terran is the race of units that require the most babysitting to get value out of. Marines, marauders and ghost melt to any sort of aoe, they require constant splitting and great care when advancing. That's why you see marine splitting, kitting and storm dodging, because otherwise the terran army would just melt. And even the other units, tanks and mines are very positional in nature, they require a great deal of thought on how to optimally place to get the maximum results, and it takes a good deal of micro to achieve that positioning. The only true 1 A units are BCs and Thors. And your suggestions don't actually improve the game, the mine nerf already seems unnecessary when you look at how good zergs have gotten lately at dealing with them, the Thor buff doesn't do anything, its still a borring 1 A unit, but now its just cheaper and the banshees are fine the way they are. Banshees are interesting because they have clear strengths and weaknesses, they deal very good damage, but they must be microed for maximum potential and their lack of AtA weapons makes them really vulnerable once proper counters are out. And a short range AtA attack isn't going to help them at all, mutas will still shred them because of speed, regen and glaive bounce, vikings still obliterate them from a distance and, in the unlikely case toss builds a SG, phoenix still tear them apart. Will risk to be as "rude" as your reply was to my post.. Not because it was written in a badly manner or I feel offended, but because you didn't understand at all what I wanted to say.. I dind't say that Terran was a 1-A unit race.. I said that Terran is a 1-unit (i.e. - Marine-only) race.. The difference is huuuge my friend.. Problem is that every other unit that Terran has is designed for Marine support as opposed to work on it's own in some way (Banshee is the exception there, ofc. - only if the opponent doesn't have any air).. So yah - make that difference in your head - between - 1-A, and Marine-only race.. I already understand that people are much more "burdened" with the 1-A concept, but still - Marine-only IMO is a problem (in it's own way) as well.. And TBH - even Blizz themselves know that the "Marine-only till get hard-countered" race is a problem as well - that's why they're trying to fix mech.. That may not be the only reason of why they wanna make mech work well, but surely is one of them.. Excuse me then, I saw 1A race, not 1 unit race. yes totally different discussion. And I do agree with you to some extent. Bio is a very self contained composition. However I think the problems are from both the design of the other races as well as the design of terran. I'll use a BW example here because its the model I know that worked best. In BW, you had marine, medic as the core of the army, and zerg had lings, when the game progressed into the mid game the zerg would add lurkers for space control, defense and offense, and terran added tanks to their composition to combat lurkers from a safe distance as well as for their own brand of space control, in the late game zerg got to defilers to be able to fight cost efficiently again with dark swarm and plague, meanwhile terran got to science vessel to counter defilers, masses of lings and other units. Finally the zerg would try and counter science vessels with scourge which, would be countered by marines. I use the above example because it was a closed circular counter system but also because all tech trees where used by both sides, and both sides had some sort of space control the game had a clearly flow and an overarching game plan by both sides, but a lot of things could still happen in between. That just doesn't exist in SC2 to the same extent, and its not only because bio is very efficient in and of itself, its also because the other races have very powerful tools to combat terran T3 and T2 options as well. Yes you could say, redesign terran in such a way that as the game progresses, it becomes pivotal to add a small number of thors and ravens into the mix, but that requires a radical re-assessment of the balance of all other areas. So yes, I agree with you, terran might be a bit too bio focused, but to be frank its not completely their fault, and again I'm not sure your suggested tweaks would change that. In fairness, TvZ bio play uses units from all 3 tech trees as well and is the incorporation of barracks units, supported by aoe units from the factory and supported by flying spell casters in medivacs as the game progresses. Medic looks cooler than marauder Siege tank looks cooler than widow mine Science Vessels looks cooler than medivac But it's still the same dynamic as it was in BW tech wise.
Hmmmm.. Then tell me what to do as Terran if nearly all you've got is Mines and Marines and Medivacs, at the moment when the Zerg makes several Ultras with more coming on the way ?
Not really complete TBH, there's still more to it that's not yet made..
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On October 15 2013 22:03 VArsovskiSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 21:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 15 2013 21:18 Destructicon wrote:On October 15 2013 20:53 VArsovskiSC wrote:On October 15 2013 19:57 Destructicon wrote:On October 15 2013 18:44 VArsovskiSC wrote:
The good thing is that they finally started to realize that it was the Terran race that is screwed up at least a bit in it's core design..
Namely it's a 1-unit race and there isn't anything else that will take at least a part of their "role" that's a higher-tier unit.. I mean - simply - the reason we see Marauders is because and/or ONLY when Marines start to die in greater numbers because of the fact that the opponent has splash..
TvZ is/was a bad matchup because Mines were designed to be a bit too anti-Zerg favored.. Now it's even worse because once the Zerg (somehow) cleans-up the marine-mine "mess" at his doorstep and gets Ultras - Terran can't do a single thing to kill them.. I mean - Terran can't afford to produce any of the Ultralisk-killing units (such as Banshee for example) because Zerg has everything that needs to guard the Ultras already from before (units that were forced by the Terran earlier on with the parade) such as Mutas and Overseers, e.t.c.. Even more so - Terran just don't have anything else good vs the Mutalisks beside the Marines (maybe Thors or sth would do, but they're too expensive to afford as well..)
However - having that in mind - I suggest the following changes TBH:
1 - reduce mine splash radius, change the mine upgrade to "store" one more mine instead.. The upgrade change is to make the Mines almost at least viable vs Protoss in the late game.. It's a win-win situation IMO - Zerg won't suffer all the splash right-away from the first time, but if they stay another say 3-5 sec - the mines (if not cleaned up) will fire again.. vs Protoss the benefit of this is that Warp-in mechanics won't "negate" the mines completely, so at the end of the day - they WILL help for some of the positional i.e. - mech - play..
2 - Reduce the Thor cost - down to 250/175 or sth, but reduce it's HP down to like 350 as well.. I mean the Voidray is already 250/150, so won't do too much problems, the good point in this however is - there will be some "point" in mixing mech and bio - like vs Ultralisks in the very late game from Zerg for example
3 - Give the Banshee an upgrade to shoot at Air units at a very close distance, or any ability of the sort to say.. Maybe sth like a 3 range barrage for some energy cost with a bit of splash - then maybe - MAYBE - there would be a point of going some of the Air play if Ultras pop-out overall..
I mean it's a bit of rusty matchup situations that Terran can't afford tech-switches while in the same time the tech they choose may seem a bit too strong (at least DPS-wise, like the bio only for example) at certain stages of the game-play..
=======================================================
The proposed changes that are already - "MIGHT WORK" - like the mine splash reduction with the Tank-firerate buff (though I think it should be even greater - about 20% faster fire instead of 10% maybe), but if that doesn't do it's thing - I think that those are "about" the changes that would be required at the end of the day..
1 - reduce mine splash
2 - change mine upgrade to have mine capacity of 2 mines each able to fire 5 seconds one after another
3 - change Thor cost a bit, reduce it's HP
4 - give the Banshee a way to defend itself from Air targets (at least temporarily) for some energy cost a bit What you said is so far from the truth that it hurts. Terran is not, at its core a race of 1 A units, in fact it is the farthest from that model, Terran is the race of units that require the most babysitting to get value out of. Marines, marauders and ghost melt to any sort of aoe, they require constant splitting and great care when advancing. That's why you see marine splitting, kitting and storm dodging, because otherwise the terran army would just melt. And even the other units, tanks and mines are very positional in nature, they require a great deal of thought on how to optimally place to get the maximum results, and it takes a good deal of micro to achieve that positioning. The only true 1 A units are BCs and Thors. And your suggestions don't actually improve the game, the mine nerf already seems unnecessary when you look at how good zergs have gotten lately at dealing with them, the Thor buff doesn't do anything, its still a borring 1 A unit, but now its just cheaper and the banshees are fine the way they are. Banshees are interesting because they have clear strengths and weaknesses, they deal very good damage, but they must be microed for maximum potential and their lack of AtA weapons makes them really vulnerable once proper counters are out. And a short range AtA attack isn't going to help them at all, mutas will still shred them because of speed, regen and glaive bounce, vikings still obliterate them from a distance and, in the unlikely case toss builds a SG, phoenix still tear them apart. Will risk to be as "rude" as your reply was to my post.. Not because it was written in a badly manner or I feel offended, but because you didn't understand at all what I wanted to say.. I dind't say that Terran was a 1-A unit race.. I said that Terran is a 1-unit (i.e. - Marine-only) race.. The difference is huuuge my friend.. Problem is that every other unit that Terran has is designed for Marine support as opposed to work on it's own in some way (Banshee is the exception there, ofc. - only if the opponent doesn't have any air).. So yah - make that difference in your head - between - 1-A, and Marine-only race.. I already understand that people are much more "burdened" with the 1-A concept, but still - Marine-only IMO is a problem (in it's own way) as well.. And TBH - even Blizz themselves know that the "Marine-only till get hard-countered" race is a problem as well - that's why they're trying to fix mech.. That may not be the only reason of why they wanna make mech work well, but surely is one of them.. Excuse me then, I saw 1A race, not 1 unit race. yes totally different discussion. And I do agree with you to some extent. Bio is a very self contained composition. However I think the problems are from both the design of the other races as well as the design of terran. I'll use a BW example here because its the model I know that worked best. In BW, you had marine, medic as the core of the army, and zerg had lings, when the game progressed into the mid game the zerg would add lurkers for space control, defense and offense, and terran added tanks to their composition to combat lurkers from a safe distance as well as for their own brand of space control, in the late game zerg got to defilers to be able to fight cost efficiently again with dark swarm and plague, meanwhile terran got to science vessel to counter defilers, masses of lings and other units. Finally the zerg would try and counter science vessels with scourge which, would be countered by marines. I use the above example because it was a closed circular counter system but also because all tech trees where used by both sides, and both sides had some sort of space control the game had a clearly flow and an overarching game plan by both sides, but a lot of things could still happen in between. That just doesn't exist in SC2 to the same extent, and its not only because bio is very efficient in and of itself, its also because the other races have very powerful tools to combat terran T3 and T2 options as well. Yes you could say, redesign terran in such a way that as the game progresses, it becomes pivotal to add a small number of thors and ravens into the mix, but that requires a radical re-assessment of the balance of all other areas. So yes, I agree with you, terran might be a bit too bio focused, but to be frank its not completely their fault, and again I'm not sure your suggested tweaks would change that. In fairness, TvZ bio play uses units from all 3 tech trees as well and is the incorporation of barracks units, supported by aoe units from the factory and supported by flying spell casters in medivacs as the game progresses. Medic looks cooler than marauder Siege tank looks cooler than widow mine Science Vessels looks cooler than medivac But it's still the same dynamic as it was in BW tech wise. Hmmmm.. Then tell me what to do as Terran if nearly all you've got is Mines and Marines and Medivacs, at the moment when the Zerg makes several Ultras with more coming on the way ?
Well when i play terran i usually /dance to make the zerg think that i have more and i laugh at him. It never worked though...
Of course, you could drop... but that will do a base trade
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On October 15 2013 22:03 VArsovskiSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 21:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 15 2013 21:18 Destructicon wrote:On October 15 2013 20:53 VArsovskiSC wrote:On October 15 2013 19:57 Destructicon wrote:On October 15 2013 18:44 VArsovskiSC wrote:
The good thing is that they finally started to realize that it was the Terran race that is screwed up at least a bit in it's core design..
Namely it's a 1-unit race and there isn't anything else that will take at least a part of their "role" that's a higher-tier unit.. I mean - simply - the reason we see Marauders is because and/or ONLY when Marines start to die in greater numbers because of the fact that the opponent has splash..
TvZ is/was a bad matchup because Mines were designed to be a bit too anti-Zerg favored.. Now it's even worse because once the Zerg (somehow) cleans-up the marine-mine "mess" at his doorstep and gets Ultras - Terran can't do a single thing to kill them.. I mean - Terran can't afford to produce any of the Ultralisk-killing units (such as Banshee for example) because Zerg has everything that needs to guard the Ultras already from before (units that were forced by the Terran earlier on with the parade) such as Mutas and Overseers, e.t.c.. Even more so - Terran just don't have anything else good vs the Mutalisks beside the Marines (maybe Thors or sth would do, but they're too expensive to afford as well..)
However - having that in mind - I suggest the following changes TBH:
1 - reduce mine splash radius, change the mine upgrade to "store" one more mine instead.. The upgrade change is to make the Mines almost at least viable vs Protoss in the late game.. It's a win-win situation IMO - Zerg won't suffer all the splash right-away from the first time, but if they stay another say 3-5 sec - the mines (if not cleaned up) will fire again.. vs Protoss the benefit of this is that Warp-in mechanics won't "negate" the mines completely, so at the end of the day - they WILL help for some of the positional i.e. - mech - play..
2 - Reduce the Thor cost - down to 250/175 or sth, but reduce it's HP down to like 350 as well.. I mean the Voidray is already 250/150, so won't do too much problems, the good point in this however is - there will be some "point" in mixing mech and bio - like vs Ultralisks in the very late game from Zerg for example
3 - Give the Banshee an upgrade to shoot at Air units at a very close distance, or any ability of the sort to say.. Maybe sth like a 3 range barrage for some energy cost with a bit of splash - then maybe - MAYBE - there would be a point of going some of the Air play if Ultras pop-out overall..
I mean it's a bit of rusty matchup situations that Terran can't afford tech-switches while in the same time the tech they choose may seem a bit too strong (at least DPS-wise, like the bio only for example) at certain stages of the game-play..
=======================================================
The proposed changes that are already - "MIGHT WORK" - like the mine splash reduction with the Tank-firerate buff (though I think it should be even greater - about 20% faster fire instead of 10% maybe), but if that doesn't do it's thing - I think that those are "about" the changes that would be required at the end of the day..
1 - reduce mine splash
2 - change mine upgrade to have mine capacity of 2 mines each able to fire 5 seconds one after another
3 - change Thor cost a bit, reduce it's HP
4 - give the Banshee a way to defend itself from Air targets (at least temporarily) for some energy cost a bit What you said is so far from the truth that it hurts. Terran is not, at its core a race of 1 A units, in fact it is the farthest from that model, Terran is the race of units that require the most babysitting to get value out of. Marines, marauders and ghost melt to any sort of aoe, they require constant splitting and great care when advancing. That's why you see marine splitting, kitting and storm dodging, because otherwise the terran army would just melt. And even the other units, tanks and mines are very positional in nature, they require a great deal of thought on how to optimally place to get the maximum results, and it takes a good deal of micro to achieve that positioning. The only true 1 A units are BCs and Thors. And your suggestions don't actually improve the game, the mine nerf already seems unnecessary when you look at how good zergs have gotten lately at dealing with them, the Thor buff doesn't do anything, its still a borring 1 A unit, but now its just cheaper and the banshees are fine the way they are. Banshees are interesting because they have clear strengths and weaknesses, they deal very good damage, but they must be microed for maximum potential and their lack of AtA weapons makes them really vulnerable once proper counters are out. And a short range AtA attack isn't going to help them at all, mutas will still shred them because of speed, regen and glaive bounce, vikings still obliterate them from a distance and, in the unlikely case toss builds a SG, phoenix still tear them apart. Will risk to be as "rude" as your reply was to my post.. Not because it was written in a badly manner or I feel offended, but because you didn't understand at all what I wanted to say.. I dind't say that Terran was a 1-A unit race.. I said that Terran is a 1-unit (i.e. - Marine-only) race.. The difference is huuuge my friend.. Problem is that every other unit that Terran has is designed for Marine support as opposed to work on it's own in some way (Banshee is the exception there, ofc. - only if the opponent doesn't have any air).. So yah - make that difference in your head - between - 1-A, and Marine-only race.. I already understand that people are much more "burdened" with the 1-A concept, but still - Marine-only IMO is a problem (in it's own way) as well.. And TBH - even Blizz themselves know that the "Marine-only till get hard-countered" race is a problem as well - that's why they're trying to fix mech.. That may not be the only reason of why they wanna make mech work well, but surely is one of them.. Excuse me then, I saw 1A race, not 1 unit race. yes totally different discussion. And I do agree with you to some extent. Bio is a very self contained composition. However I think the problems are from both the design of the other races as well as the design of terran. I'll use a BW example here because its the model I know that worked best. In BW, you had marine, medic as the core of the army, and zerg had lings, when the game progressed into the mid game the zerg would add lurkers for space control, defense and offense, and terran added tanks to their composition to combat lurkers from a safe distance as well as for their own brand of space control, in the late game zerg got to defilers to be able to fight cost efficiently again with dark swarm and plague, meanwhile terran got to science vessel to counter defilers, masses of lings and other units. Finally the zerg would try and counter science vessels with scourge which, would be countered by marines. I use the above example because it was a closed circular counter system but also because all tech trees where used by both sides, and both sides had some sort of space control the game had a clearly flow and an overarching game plan by both sides, but a lot of things could still happen in between. That just doesn't exist in SC2 to the same extent, and its not only because bio is very efficient in and of itself, its also because the other races have very powerful tools to combat terran T3 and T2 options as well. Yes you could say, redesign terran in such a way that as the game progresses, it becomes pivotal to add a small number of thors and ravens into the mix, but that requires a radical re-assessment of the balance of all other areas. So yes, I agree with you, terran might be a bit too bio focused, but to be frank its not completely their fault, and again I'm not sure your suggested tweaks would change that. In fairness, TvZ bio play uses units from all 3 tech trees as well and is the incorporation of barracks units, supported by aoe units from the factory and supported by flying spell casters in medivacs as the game progresses. Medic looks cooler than marauder Siege tank looks cooler than widow mine Science Vessels looks cooler than medivac But it's still the same dynamic as it was in BW tech wise. Hmmmm.. Then tell me what to do as Terran if nearly all you've got is Mines and Marines and Medivacs, at the moment when the Zerg makes several Ultras with more coming on the way ? Not really complete TBH, there's still more to it that's not yet made..
If you make Marine/Medic/Tank/Vessel in BW, I don't see why you won't make Marine/Maruader/Widowmine/Medivac in SC2
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On October 15 2013 21:42 bObA wrote:
The radius nerf of the widow mine is a joke.
I remember I told when they talked about that that was too huge, especially when they first to nerf it from 1.75 to 1.1.
Even 1.25 is too low and no terran would want to add tanks instead of widow mines since zerg are playing heavy mutas style and because of the power of vipers. The two spells of vipers make the tanks so useless and the little up of tank fire rhythm is useless and dont compensate the power of mutas and Vipers.
Tanks are dead and that was what David Kim and Justin bowder wanted to do and now they want to introduce mech play again.
Mech play is only viable in TVT and on WOL also vs zerg but not after Queen patch since zerg outmacro terran.
And anyway bio mines is very APM demanded and need a very well careful use since widow mine has friendly fire and you have to stim, split, hit and run to avoid mines fire and banelings hit so you can lose everything on a bad move.
And if you add siege tanks friendly fire lol, you will kill yourself your own army.
Also that s too compliacted to place well tanks, mines and move the bio and zerg can catch our army out of position and kill them all cause zerg army is very mobile.
At the beginning zergs thought mines were imba but right now they are learning to play and split they army ( as terrans does for 3 years to avoid baneling hits ) and to attack from many sides, to use overcyr in their army and sometimes use changelings.
Anyway if zergs use a bit the infestors even if got nerf ( and oh god thank blizzard to have done that after 1 year and half of imbastor broodlords era ) 3 or 4 can lock army and you can go with glings and the widow mines shots will kill glings but also bio who cannot move.
Remember the GSL match between DRG and Innovation.
Innovation even with a perfect without any mistake play lost vs DRG who played extremely well mutas glings.
So now the match is balanced, Zergs are complaining because they have to play from infestors broodlords a click spam F to mutas glings banelings ultras with many angles of attack, hit and run, detection, split and more careful attack.
Now they have to play as terran has to play from the beginning.
It's not the splits my friend - it's the fact that Zergs got a bit more "smarter" at the approaching of it.. Namely - you don't see Zergs running through the minefield any longer, chasing and trying to kill the Marines..
Instead - they wanna make sure that Terran is low on Mine count, or the front layer of mines being in a very low count at least.. Using mostly Banelings for it, and they also realized that it's not the "whole minefield" you wanna get rid of, but only the frontal closest layer instead..
So yah - the Zerg's target priorities have changed - Marines are no longer the #1 target, but instead the front layer of mines first, then the Marines come as second, and then maybe if having thinned out the minefield enough from all the sides possible - then go for the kill..
That's the difference - it's not the splits (it's nearly impossible to split while running in a mine-field), it's the "layering and peel-apart layers, possibly even thin them off one another" approach that changes it..
That still doesn't change the fact that the Widow-Mine wouldnt' need some changes though..
The tank-buff for example that "follows with it" is a good idea, but not enough (should probably be 20% fire rate buff instead of only 10%) I'd say.. And there still is possibly more that can be added/changed/tweaked after that
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On October 15 2013 22:13 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 22:03 VArsovskiSC wrote:On October 15 2013 21:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 15 2013 21:18 Destructicon wrote:On October 15 2013 20:53 VArsovskiSC wrote:On October 15 2013 19:57 Destructicon wrote:On October 15 2013 18:44 VArsovskiSC wrote:
The good thing is that they finally started to realize that it was the Terran race that is screwed up at least a bit in it's core design..
Namely it's a 1-unit race and there isn't anything else that will take at least a part of their "role" that's a higher-tier unit.. I mean - simply - the reason we see Marauders is because and/or ONLY when Marines start to die in greater numbers because of the fact that the opponent has splash..
TvZ is/was a bad matchup because Mines were designed to be a bit too anti-Zerg favored.. Now it's even worse because once the Zerg (somehow) cleans-up the marine-mine "mess" at his doorstep and gets Ultras - Terran can't do a single thing to kill them.. I mean - Terran can't afford to produce any of the Ultralisk-killing units (such as Banshee for example) because Zerg has everything that needs to guard the Ultras already from before (units that were forced by the Terran earlier on with the parade) such as Mutas and Overseers, e.t.c.. Even more so - Terran just don't have anything else good vs the Mutalisks beside the Marines (maybe Thors or sth would do, but they're too expensive to afford as well..)
However - having that in mind - I suggest the following changes TBH:
1 - reduce mine splash radius, change the mine upgrade to "store" one more mine instead.. The upgrade change is to make the Mines almost at least viable vs Protoss in the late game.. It's a win-win situation IMO - Zerg won't suffer all the splash right-away from the first time, but if they stay another say 3-5 sec - the mines (if not cleaned up) will fire again.. vs Protoss the benefit of this is that Warp-in mechanics won't "negate" the mines completely, so at the end of the day - they WILL help for some of the positional i.e. - mech - play..
2 - Reduce the Thor cost - down to 250/175 or sth, but reduce it's HP down to like 350 as well.. I mean the Voidray is already 250/150, so won't do too much problems, the good point in this however is - there will be some "point" in mixing mech and bio - like vs Ultralisks in the very late game from Zerg for example
3 - Give the Banshee an upgrade to shoot at Air units at a very close distance, or any ability of the sort to say.. Maybe sth like a 3 range barrage for some energy cost with a bit of splash - then maybe - MAYBE - there would be a point of going some of the Air play if Ultras pop-out overall..
I mean it's a bit of rusty matchup situations that Terran can't afford tech-switches while in the same time the tech they choose may seem a bit too strong (at least DPS-wise, like the bio only for example) at certain stages of the game-play..
=======================================================
The proposed changes that are already - "MIGHT WORK" - like the mine splash reduction with the Tank-firerate buff (though I think it should be even greater - about 20% faster fire instead of 10% maybe), but if that doesn't do it's thing - I think that those are "about" the changes that would be required at the end of the day..
1 - reduce mine splash
2 - change mine upgrade to have mine capacity of 2 mines each able to fire 5 seconds one after another
3 - change Thor cost a bit, reduce it's HP
4 - give the Banshee a way to defend itself from Air targets (at least temporarily) for some energy cost a bit What you said is so far from the truth that it hurts. Terran is not, at its core a race of 1 A units, in fact it is the farthest from that model, Terran is the race of units that require the most babysitting to get value out of. Marines, marauders and ghost melt to any sort of aoe, they require constant splitting and great care when advancing. That's why you see marine splitting, kitting and storm dodging, because otherwise the terran army would just melt. And even the other units, tanks and mines are very positional in nature, they require a great deal of thought on how to optimally place to get the maximum results, and it takes a good deal of micro to achieve that positioning. The only true 1 A units are BCs and Thors. And your suggestions don't actually improve the game, the mine nerf already seems unnecessary when you look at how good zergs have gotten lately at dealing with them, the Thor buff doesn't do anything, its still a borring 1 A unit, but now its just cheaper and the banshees are fine the way they are. Banshees are interesting because they have clear strengths and weaknesses, they deal very good damage, but they must be microed for maximum potential and their lack of AtA weapons makes them really vulnerable once proper counters are out. And a short range AtA attack isn't going to help them at all, mutas will still shred them because of speed, regen and glaive bounce, vikings still obliterate them from a distance and, in the unlikely case toss builds a SG, phoenix still tear them apart. Will risk to be as "rude" as your reply was to my post.. Not because it was written in a badly manner or I feel offended, but because you didn't understand at all what I wanted to say.. I dind't say that Terran was a 1-A unit race.. I said that Terran is a 1-unit (i.e. - Marine-only) race.. The difference is huuuge my friend.. Problem is that every other unit that Terran has is designed for Marine support as opposed to work on it's own in some way (Banshee is the exception there, ofc. - only if the opponent doesn't have any air).. So yah - make that difference in your head - between - 1-A, and Marine-only race.. I already understand that people are much more "burdened" with the 1-A concept, but still - Marine-only IMO is a problem (in it's own way) as well.. And TBH - even Blizz themselves know that the "Marine-only till get hard-countered" race is a problem as well - that's why they're trying to fix mech.. That may not be the only reason of why they wanna make mech work well, but surely is one of them.. Excuse me then, I saw 1A race, not 1 unit race. yes totally different discussion. And I do agree with you to some extent. Bio is a very self contained composition. However I think the problems are from both the design of the other races as well as the design of terran. I'll use a BW example here because its the model I know that worked best. In BW, you had marine, medic as the core of the army, and zerg had lings, when the game progressed into the mid game the zerg would add lurkers for space control, defense and offense, and terran added tanks to their composition to combat lurkers from a safe distance as well as for their own brand of space control, in the late game zerg got to defilers to be able to fight cost efficiently again with dark swarm and plague, meanwhile terran got to science vessel to counter defilers, masses of lings and other units. Finally the zerg would try and counter science vessels with scourge which, would be countered by marines. I use the above example because it was a closed circular counter system but also because all tech trees where used by both sides, and both sides had some sort of space control the game had a clearly flow and an overarching game plan by both sides, but a lot of things could still happen in between. That just doesn't exist in SC2 to the same extent, and its not only because bio is very efficient in and of itself, its also because the other races have very powerful tools to combat terran T3 and T2 options as well. Yes you could say, redesign terran in such a way that as the game progresses, it becomes pivotal to add a small number of thors and ravens into the mix, but that requires a radical re-assessment of the balance of all other areas. So yes, I agree with you, terran might be a bit too bio focused, but to be frank its not completely their fault, and again I'm not sure your suggested tweaks would change that. In fairness, TvZ bio play uses units from all 3 tech trees as well and is the incorporation of barracks units, supported by aoe units from the factory and supported by flying spell casters in medivacs as the game progresses. Medic looks cooler than marauder Siege tank looks cooler than widow mine Science Vessels looks cooler than medivac But it's still the same dynamic as it was in BW tech wise. Hmmmm.. Then tell me what to do as Terran if nearly all you've got is Mines and Marines and Medivacs, at the moment when the Zerg makes several Ultras with more coming on the way ? Not really complete TBH, there's still more to it that's not yet made.. If you make Marine/Medic/Tank/Vessel in BW, I don't see why you won't make Marine/Maruader/Widowmine/Medivac in SC2
Well to be faire SV oneshot defiler. Tanks do absurb damage to low health unit, medic can blind detectors so ghosts can be used with this, vessel can EMP too...
And you compare BW composition with SC2. But there's no lurker and composition MMTV is for lurker based army no ?
Not sure i follow. Maybe i missed the start of your discussion.
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On October 15 2013 22:17 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 22:13 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 15 2013 22:03 VArsovskiSC wrote:On October 15 2013 21:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 15 2013 21:18 Destructicon wrote:On October 15 2013 20:53 VArsovskiSC wrote:On October 15 2013 19:57 Destructicon wrote:On October 15 2013 18:44 VArsovskiSC wrote:
The good thing is that they finally started to realize that it was the Terran race that is screwed up at least a bit in it's core design..
Namely it's a 1-unit race and there isn't anything else that will take at least a part of their "role" that's a higher-tier unit.. I mean - simply - the reason we see Marauders is because and/or ONLY when Marines start to die in greater numbers because of the fact that the opponent has splash..
TvZ is/was a bad matchup because Mines were designed to be a bit too anti-Zerg favored.. Now it's even worse because once the Zerg (somehow) cleans-up the marine-mine "mess" at his doorstep and gets Ultras - Terran can't do a single thing to kill them.. I mean - Terran can't afford to produce any of the Ultralisk-killing units (such as Banshee for example) because Zerg has everything that needs to guard the Ultras already from before (units that were forced by the Terran earlier on with the parade) such as Mutas and Overseers, e.t.c.. Even more so - Terran just don't have anything else good vs the Mutalisks beside the Marines (maybe Thors or sth would do, but they're too expensive to afford as well..)
However - having that in mind - I suggest the following changes TBH:
1 - reduce mine splash radius, change the mine upgrade to "store" one more mine instead.. The upgrade change is to make the Mines almost at least viable vs Protoss in the late game.. It's a win-win situation IMO - Zerg won't suffer all the splash right-away from the first time, but if they stay another say 3-5 sec - the mines (if not cleaned up) will fire again.. vs Protoss the benefit of this is that Warp-in mechanics won't "negate" the mines completely, so at the end of the day - they WILL help for some of the positional i.e. - mech - play..
2 - Reduce the Thor cost - down to 250/175 or sth, but reduce it's HP down to like 350 as well.. I mean the Voidray is already 250/150, so won't do too much problems, the good point in this however is - there will be some "point" in mixing mech and bio - like vs Ultralisks in the very late game from Zerg for example
3 - Give the Banshee an upgrade to shoot at Air units at a very close distance, or any ability of the sort to say.. Maybe sth like a 3 range barrage for some energy cost with a bit of splash - then maybe - MAYBE - there would be a point of going some of the Air play if Ultras pop-out overall..
I mean it's a bit of rusty matchup situations that Terran can't afford tech-switches while in the same time the tech they choose may seem a bit too strong (at least DPS-wise, like the bio only for example) at certain stages of the game-play..
=======================================================
The proposed changes that are already - "MIGHT WORK" - like the mine splash reduction with the Tank-firerate buff (though I think it should be even greater - about 20% faster fire instead of 10% maybe), but if that doesn't do it's thing - I think that those are "about" the changes that would be required at the end of the day..
1 - reduce mine splash
2 - change mine upgrade to have mine capacity of 2 mines each able to fire 5 seconds one after another
3 - change Thor cost a bit, reduce it's HP
4 - give the Banshee a way to defend itself from Air targets (at least temporarily) for some energy cost a bit What you said is so far from the truth that it hurts. Terran is not, at its core a race of 1 A units, in fact it is the farthest from that model, Terran is the race of units that require the most babysitting to get value out of. Marines, marauders and ghost melt to any sort of aoe, they require constant splitting and great care when advancing. That's why you see marine splitting, kitting and storm dodging, because otherwise the terran army would just melt. And even the other units, tanks and mines are very positional in nature, they require a great deal of thought on how to optimally place to get the maximum results, and it takes a good deal of micro to achieve that positioning. The only true 1 A units are BCs and Thors. And your suggestions don't actually improve the game, the mine nerf already seems unnecessary when you look at how good zergs have gotten lately at dealing with them, the Thor buff doesn't do anything, its still a borring 1 A unit, but now its just cheaper and the banshees are fine the way they are. Banshees are interesting because they have clear strengths and weaknesses, they deal very good damage, but they must be microed for maximum potential and their lack of AtA weapons makes them really vulnerable once proper counters are out. And a short range AtA attack isn't going to help them at all, mutas will still shred them because of speed, regen and glaive bounce, vikings still obliterate them from a distance and, in the unlikely case toss builds a SG, phoenix still tear them apart. Will risk to be as "rude" as your reply was to my post.. Not because it was written in a badly manner or I feel offended, but because you didn't understand at all what I wanted to say.. I dind't say that Terran was a 1-A unit race.. I said that Terran is a 1-unit (i.e. - Marine-only) race.. The difference is huuuge my friend.. Problem is that every other unit that Terran has is designed for Marine support as opposed to work on it's own in some way (Banshee is the exception there, ofc. - only if the opponent doesn't have any air).. So yah - make that difference in your head - between - 1-A, and Marine-only race.. I already understand that people are much more "burdened" with the 1-A concept, but still - Marine-only IMO is a problem (in it's own way) as well.. And TBH - even Blizz themselves know that the "Marine-only till get hard-countered" race is a problem as well - that's why they're trying to fix mech.. That may not be the only reason of why they wanna make mech work well, but surely is one of them.. Excuse me then, I saw 1A race, not 1 unit race. yes totally different discussion. And I do agree with you to some extent. Bio is a very self contained composition. However I think the problems are from both the design of the other races as well as the design of terran. I'll use a BW example here because its the model I know that worked best. In BW, you had marine, medic as the core of the army, and zerg had lings, when the game progressed into the mid game the zerg would add lurkers for space control, defense and offense, and terran added tanks to their composition to combat lurkers from a safe distance as well as for their own brand of space control, in the late game zerg got to defilers to be able to fight cost efficiently again with dark swarm and plague, meanwhile terran got to science vessel to counter defilers, masses of lings and other units. Finally the zerg would try and counter science vessels with scourge which, would be countered by marines. I use the above example because it was a closed circular counter system but also because all tech trees where used by both sides, and both sides had some sort of space control the game had a clearly flow and an overarching game plan by both sides, but a lot of things could still happen in between. That just doesn't exist in SC2 to the same extent, and its not only because bio is very efficient in and of itself, its also because the other races have very powerful tools to combat terran T3 and T2 options as well. Yes you could say, redesign terran in such a way that as the game progresses, it becomes pivotal to add a small number of thors and ravens into the mix, but that requires a radical re-assessment of the balance of all other areas. So yes, I agree with you, terran might be a bit too bio focused, but to be frank its not completely their fault, and again I'm not sure your suggested tweaks would change that. In fairness, TvZ bio play uses units from all 3 tech trees as well and is the incorporation of barracks units, supported by aoe units from the factory and supported by flying spell casters in medivacs as the game progresses. Medic looks cooler than marauder Siege tank looks cooler than widow mine Science Vessels looks cooler than medivac But it's still the same dynamic as it was in BW tech wise. Hmmmm.. Then tell me what to do as Terran if nearly all you've got is Mines and Marines and Medivacs, at the moment when the Zerg makes several Ultras with more coming on the way ? Not really complete TBH, there's still more to it that's not yet made.. If you make Marine/Medic/Tank/Vessel in BW, I don't see why you won't make Marine/Maruader/Widowmine/Medivac in SC2 Well to be faire SV oneshot defiler. Tanks do absurb damage to low health unit, medic can blind detectors so ghosts can be used with this, vessel can EMP too... And you compare BW composition with SC2. But there's no lurker and composition MMTV is for lurker based army no ? Not sure i follow. Maybe i missed the start of your discussion.
The guy was initially talking about terran bio play in BW being completely different than BW and my showing that compositionally they have a lot of similarities. He was trying to suggest that Bio play in SC2 is purely tier 1 while bio play in BW used the whole tech tree when in truth the SC2 bio tech tree simply doesn't use the Fusion Core and Nukes.
He then commented about what happens if Ultralisks show up in which I reinstated my point that the Medivac and the Marauder are in the same tech tier and hence if he had made Medivacs in BW he could be making Maruaders in SC2 to prevent ultralisk transitions.
The Zerg side of the discussion is not present afaik.
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On October 15 2013 22:21 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 22:17 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 15 2013 22:13 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 15 2013 22:03 VArsovskiSC wrote:On October 15 2013 21:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 15 2013 21:18 Destructicon wrote:On October 15 2013 20:53 VArsovskiSC wrote:On October 15 2013 19:57 Destructicon wrote:On October 15 2013 18:44 VArsovskiSC wrote:
The good thing is that they finally started to realize that it was the Terran race that is screwed up at least a bit in it's core design..
Namely it's a 1-unit race and there isn't anything else that will take at least a part of their "role" that's a higher-tier unit.. I mean - simply - the reason we see Marauders is because and/or ONLY when Marines start to die in greater numbers because of the fact that the opponent has splash..
TvZ is/was a bad matchup because Mines were designed to be a bit too anti-Zerg favored.. Now it's even worse because once the Zerg (somehow) cleans-up the marine-mine "mess" at his doorstep and gets Ultras - Terran can't do a single thing to kill them.. I mean - Terran can't afford to produce any of the Ultralisk-killing units (such as Banshee for example) because Zerg has everything that needs to guard the Ultras already from before (units that were forced by the Terran earlier on with the parade) such as Mutas and Overseers, e.t.c.. Even more so - Terran just don't have anything else good vs the Mutalisks beside the Marines (maybe Thors or sth would do, but they're too expensive to afford as well..)
However - having that in mind - I suggest the following changes TBH:
1 - reduce mine splash radius, change the mine upgrade to "store" one more mine instead.. The upgrade change is to make the Mines almost at least viable vs Protoss in the late game.. It's a win-win situation IMO - Zerg won't suffer all the splash right-away from the first time, but if they stay another say 3-5 sec - the mines (if not cleaned up) will fire again.. vs Protoss the benefit of this is that Warp-in mechanics won't "negate" the mines completely, so at the end of the day - they WILL help for some of the positional i.e. - mech - play..
2 - Reduce the Thor cost - down to 250/175 or sth, but reduce it's HP down to like 350 as well.. I mean the Voidray is already 250/150, so won't do too much problems, the good point in this however is - there will be some "point" in mixing mech and bio - like vs Ultralisks in the very late game from Zerg for example
3 - Give the Banshee an upgrade to shoot at Air units at a very close distance, or any ability of the sort to say.. Maybe sth like a 3 range barrage for some energy cost with a bit of splash - then maybe - MAYBE - there would be a point of going some of the Air play if Ultras pop-out overall..
I mean it's a bit of rusty matchup situations that Terran can't afford tech-switches while in the same time the tech they choose may seem a bit too strong (at least DPS-wise, like the bio only for example) at certain stages of the game-play..
=======================================================
The proposed changes that are already - "MIGHT WORK" - like the mine splash reduction with the Tank-firerate buff (though I think it should be even greater - about 20% faster fire instead of 10% maybe), but if that doesn't do it's thing - I think that those are "about" the changes that would be required at the end of the day..
1 - reduce mine splash
2 - change mine upgrade to have mine capacity of 2 mines each able to fire 5 seconds one after another
3 - change Thor cost a bit, reduce it's HP
4 - give the Banshee a way to defend itself from Air targets (at least temporarily) for some energy cost a bit What you said is so far from the truth that it hurts. Terran is not, at its core a race of 1 A units, in fact it is the farthest from that model, Terran is the race of units that require the most babysitting to get value out of. Marines, marauders and ghost melt to any sort of aoe, they require constant splitting and great care when advancing. That's why you see marine splitting, kitting and storm dodging, because otherwise the terran army would just melt. And even the other units, tanks and mines are very positional in nature, they require a great deal of thought on how to optimally place to get the maximum results, and it takes a good deal of micro to achieve that positioning. The only true 1 A units are BCs and Thors. And your suggestions don't actually improve the game, the mine nerf already seems unnecessary when you look at how good zergs have gotten lately at dealing with them, the Thor buff doesn't do anything, its still a borring 1 A unit, but now its just cheaper and the banshees are fine the way they are. Banshees are interesting because they have clear strengths and weaknesses, they deal very good damage, but they must be microed for maximum potential and their lack of AtA weapons makes them really vulnerable once proper counters are out. And a short range AtA attack isn't going to help them at all, mutas will still shred them because of speed, regen and glaive bounce, vikings still obliterate them from a distance and, in the unlikely case toss builds a SG, phoenix still tear them apart. Will risk to be as "rude" as your reply was to my post.. Not because it was written in a badly manner or I feel offended, but because you didn't understand at all what I wanted to say.. I dind't say that Terran was a 1-A unit race.. I said that Terran is a 1-unit (i.e. - Marine-only) race.. The difference is huuuge my friend.. Problem is that every other unit that Terran has is designed for Marine support as opposed to work on it's own in some way (Banshee is the exception there, ofc. - only if the opponent doesn't have any air).. So yah - make that difference in your head - between - 1-A, and Marine-only race.. I already understand that people are much more "burdened" with the 1-A concept, but still - Marine-only IMO is a problem (in it's own way) as well.. And TBH - even Blizz themselves know that the "Marine-only till get hard-countered" race is a problem as well - that's why they're trying to fix mech.. That may not be the only reason of why they wanna make mech work well, but surely is one of them.. Excuse me then, I saw 1A race, not 1 unit race. yes totally different discussion. And I do agree with you to some extent. Bio is a very self contained composition. However I think the problems are from both the design of the other races as well as the design of terran. I'll use a BW example here because its the model I know that worked best. In BW, you had marine, medic as the core of the army, and zerg had lings, when the game progressed into the mid game the zerg would add lurkers for space control, defense and offense, and terran added tanks to their composition to combat lurkers from a safe distance as well as for their own brand of space control, in the late game zerg got to defilers to be able to fight cost efficiently again with dark swarm and plague, meanwhile terran got to science vessel to counter defilers, masses of lings and other units. Finally the zerg would try and counter science vessels with scourge which, would be countered by marines. I use the above example because it was a closed circular counter system but also because all tech trees where used by both sides, and both sides had some sort of space control the game had a clearly flow and an overarching game plan by both sides, but a lot of things could still happen in between. That just doesn't exist in SC2 to the same extent, and its not only because bio is very efficient in and of itself, its also because the other races have very powerful tools to combat terran T3 and T2 options as well. Yes you could say, redesign terran in such a way that as the game progresses, it becomes pivotal to add a small number of thors and ravens into the mix, but that requires a radical re-assessment of the balance of all other areas. So yes, I agree with you, terran might be a bit too bio focused, but to be frank its not completely their fault, and again I'm not sure your suggested tweaks would change that. In fairness, TvZ bio play uses units from all 3 tech trees as well and is the incorporation of barracks units, supported by aoe units from the factory and supported by flying spell casters in medivacs as the game progresses. Medic looks cooler than marauder Siege tank looks cooler than widow mine Science Vessels looks cooler than medivac But it's still the same dynamic as it was in BW tech wise. Hmmmm.. Then tell me what to do as Terran if nearly all you've got is Mines and Marines and Medivacs, at the moment when the Zerg makes several Ultras with more coming on the way ? Not really complete TBH, there's still more to it that's not yet made.. If you make Marine/Medic/Tank/Vessel in BW, I don't see why you won't make Marine/Maruader/Widowmine/Medivac in SC2 Well to be faire SV oneshot defiler. Tanks do absurb damage to low health unit, medic can blind detectors so ghosts can be used with this, vessel can EMP too... And you compare BW composition with SC2. But there's no lurker and composition MMTV is for lurker based army no ? Not sure i follow. Maybe i missed the start of your discussion. The guy was initially talking about terran bio play in BW being completely different than BW and my showing that compositionally they have a lot of similarities. He was trying to suggest that Bio play in SC2 is purely tier 1 while bio play in BW used the whole tech tree when in truth the SC2 bio tech tree simply doesn't use the Fusion Core and Nukes. He then commented about what happens if Ultralisks show up in which I reinstated my point that the Medivac and the Marauder are in the same tech tier and hence if he had made Medivacs in BW he could be making Maruaders in SC2 to prevent ultralisk transitions. The Zerg side of the discussion is not present afaik.
Oh so i was completly not in the point... Like at all
Well that is kind of true. Your point is valid i think
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I don't know even in GM I play zergs that do some pretty dumb A-Move with a cloud of Lings and I drag them to the Mine with a Money shot.... Ofcourse this is ON NA server so I guess it doesn't say much. Still I play the same match I can break a Widow mine foothold with 4 widow mines with just a good engage and pre-spread ..........
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On October 15 2013 22:24 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 22:21 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 15 2013 22:17 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 15 2013 22:13 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 15 2013 22:03 VArsovskiSC wrote:On October 15 2013 21:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 15 2013 21:18 Destructicon wrote:On October 15 2013 20:53 VArsovskiSC wrote:On October 15 2013 19:57 Destructicon wrote:On October 15 2013 18:44 VArsovskiSC wrote:
The good thing is that they finally started to realize that it was the Terran race that is screwed up at least a bit in it's core design..
Namely it's a 1-unit race and there isn't anything else that will take at least a part of their "role" that's a higher-tier unit.. I mean - simply - the reason we see Marauders is because and/or ONLY when Marines start to die in greater numbers because of the fact that the opponent has splash..
TvZ is/was a bad matchup because Mines were designed to be a bit too anti-Zerg favored.. Now it's even worse because once the Zerg (somehow) cleans-up the marine-mine "mess" at his doorstep and gets Ultras - Terran can't do a single thing to kill them.. I mean - Terran can't afford to produce any of the Ultralisk-killing units (such as Banshee for example) because Zerg has everything that needs to guard the Ultras already from before (units that were forced by the Terran earlier on with the parade) such as Mutas and Overseers, e.t.c.. Even more so - Terran just don't have anything else good vs the Mutalisks beside the Marines (maybe Thors or sth would do, but they're too expensive to afford as well..)
However - having that in mind - I suggest the following changes TBH:
1 - reduce mine splash radius, change the mine upgrade to "store" one more mine instead.. The upgrade change is to make the Mines almost at least viable vs Protoss in the late game.. It's a win-win situation IMO - Zerg won't suffer all the splash right-away from the first time, but if they stay another say 3-5 sec - the mines (if not cleaned up) will fire again.. vs Protoss the benefit of this is that Warp-in mechanics won't "negate" the mines completely, so at the end of the day - they WILL help for some of the positional i.e. - mech - play..
2 - Reduce the Thor cost - down to 250/175 or sth, but reduce it's HP down to like 350 as well.. I mean the Voidray is already 250/150, so won't do too much problems, the good point in this however is - there will be some "point" in mixing mech and bio - like vs Ultralisks in the very late game from Zerg for example
3 - Give the Banshee an upgrade to shoot at Air units at a very close distance, or any ability of the sort to say.. Maybe sth like a 3 range barrage for some energy cost with a bit of splash - then maybe - MAYBE - there would be a point of going some of the Air play if Ultras pop-out overall..
I mean it's a bit of rusty matchup situations that Terran can't afford tech-switches while in the same time the tech they choose may seem a bit too strong (at least DPS-wise, like the bio only for example) at certain stages of the game-play..
=======================================================
The proposed changes that are already - "MIGHT WORK" - like the mine splash reduction with the Tank-firerate buff (though I think it should be even greater - about 20% faster fire instead of 10% maybe), but if that doesn't do it's thing - I think that those are "about" the changes that would be required at the end of the day..
1 - reduce mine splash
2 - change mine upgrade to have mine capacity of 2 mines each able to fire 5 seconds one after another
3 - change Thor cost a bit, reduce it's HP
4 - give the Banshee a way to defend itself from Air targets (at least temporarily) for some energy cost a bit What you said is so far from the truth that it hurts. Terran is not, at its core a race of 1 A units, in fact it is the farthest from that model, Terran is the race of units that require the most babysitting to get value out of. Marines, marauders and ghost melt to any sort of aoe, they require constant splitting and great care when advancing. That's why you see marine splitting, kitting and storm dodging, because otherwise the terran army would just melt. And even the other units, tanks and mines are very positional in nature, they require a great deal of thought on how to optimally place to get the maximum results, and it takes a good deal of micro to achieve that positioning. The only true 1 A units are BCs and Thors. And your suggestions don't actually improve the game, the mine nerf already seems unnecessary when you look at how good zergs have gotten lately at dealing with them, the Thor buff doesn't do anything, its still a borring 1 A unit, but now its just cheaper and the banshees are fine the way they are. Banshees are interesting because they have clear strengths and weaknesses, they deal very good damage, but they must be microed for maximum potential and their lack of AtA weapons makes them really vulnerable once proper counters are out. And a short range AtA attack isn't going to help them at all, mutas will still shred them because of speed, regen and glaive bounce, vikings still obliterate them from a distance and, in the unlikely case toss builds a SG, phoenix still tear them apart. Will risk to be as "rude" as your reply was to my post.. Not because it was written in a badly manner or I feel offended, but because you didn't understand at all what I wanted to say.. I dind't say that Terran was a 1-A unit race.. I said that Terran is a 1-unit (i.e. - Marine-only) race.. The difference is huuuge my friend.. Problem is that every other unit that Terran has is designed for Marine support as opposed to work on it's own in some way (Banshee is the exception there, ofc. - only if the opponent doesn't have any air).. So yah - make that difference in your head - between - 1-A, and Marine-only race.. I already understand that people are much more "burdened" with the 1-A concept, but still - Marine-only IMO is a problem (in it's own way) as well.. And TBH - even Blizz themselves know that the "Marine-only till get hard-countered" race is a problem as well - that's why they're trying to fix mech.. That may not be the only reason of why they wanna make mech work well, but surely is one of them.. Excuse me then, I saw 1A race, not 1 unit race. yes totally different discussion. And I do agree with you to some extent. Bio is a very self contained composition. However I think the problems are from both the design of the other races as well as the design of terran. I'll use a BW example here because its the model I know that worked best. In BW, you had marine, medic as the core of the army, and zerg had lings, when the game progressed into the mid game the zerg would add lurkers for space control, defense and offense, and terran added tanks to their composition to combat lurkers from a safe distance as well as for their own brand of space control, in the late game zerg got to defilers to be able to fight cost efficiently again with dark swarm and plague, meanwhile terran got to science vessel to counter defilers, masses of lings and other units. Finally the zerg would try and counter science vessels with scourge which, would be countered by marines. I use the above example because it was a closed circular counter system but also because all tech trees where used by both sides, and both sides had some sort of space control the game had a clearly flow and an overarching game plan by both sides, but a lot of things could still happen in between. That just doesn't exist in SC2 to the same extent, and its not only because bio is very efficient in and of itself, its also because the other races have very powerful tools to combat terran T3 and T2 options as well. Yes you could say, redesign terran in such a way that as the game progresses, it becomes pivotal to add a small number of thors and ravens into the mix, but that requires a radical re-assessment of the balance of all other areas. So yes, I agree with you, terran might be a bit too bio focused, but to be frank its not completely their fault, and again I'm not sure your suggested tweaks would change that. In fairness, TvZ bio play uses units from all 3 tech trees as well and is the incorporation of barracks units, supported by aoe units from the factory and supported by flying spell casters in medivacs as the game progresses. Medic looks cooler than marauder Siege tank looks cooler than widow mine Science Vessels looks cooler than medivac But it's still the same dynamic as it was in BW tech wise. Hmmmm.. Then tell me what to do as Terran if nearly all you've got is Mines and Marines and Medivacs, at the moment when the Zerg makes several Ultras with more coming on the way ? Not really complete TBH, there's still more to it that's not yet made.. If you make Marine/Medic/Tank/Vessel in BW, I don't see why you won't make Marine/Maruader/Widowmine/Medivac in SC2 Well to be faire SV oneshot defiler. Tanks do absurb damage to low health unit, medic can blind detectors so ghosts can be used with this, vessel can EMP too... And you compare BW composition with SC2. But there's no lurker and composition MMTV is for lurker based army no ? Not sure i follow. Maybe i missed the start of your discussion. The guy was initially talking about terran bio play in BW being completely different than BW and my showing that compositionally they have a lot of similarities. He was trying to suggest that Bio play in SC2 is purely tier 1 while bio play in BW used the whole tech tree when in truth the SC2 bio tech tree simply doesn't use the Fusion Core and Nukes. He then commented about what happens if Ultralisks show up in which I reinstated my point that the Medivac and the Marauder are in the same tech tier and hence if he had made Medivacs in BW he could be making Maruaders in SC2 to prevent ultralisk transitions. The Zerg side of the discussion is not present afaik. Oh so i was completly not in the point... Like at all Well that is kind of true. Your point is valid i think
The soul of his point is still true despite the facts of the matter.
Marauders are not as interesting as a rax based marine support as a medic. A medivac although arguably more useful and game breaking, is not as sexy a starport support unit as a science vessel. And, well, many people have talked about the Widowmine/Siege Tank discussion before so no need to elaborate.
So although "facts" are on my side, I still lean heavily toward his opinion
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On October 15 2013 22:14 VArsovskiSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 21:42 bObA wrote:
The radius nerf of the widow mine is a joke.
I remember I told when they talked about that that was too huge, especially when they first to nerf it from 1.75 to 1.1.
Even 1.25 is too low and no terran would want to add tanks instead of widow mines since zerg are playing heavy mutas style and because of the power of vipers. The two spells of vipers make the tanks so useless and the little up of tank fire rhythm is useless and dont compensate the power of mutas and Vipers.
Tanks are dead and that was what David Kim and Justin bowder wanted to do and now they want to introduce mech play again.
Mech play is only viable in TVT and on WOL also vs zerg but not after Queen patch since zerg outmacro terran.
And anyway bio mines is very APM demanded and need a very well careful use since widow mine has friendly fire and you have to stim, split, hit and run to avoid mines fire and banelings hit so you can lose everything on a bad move.
And if you add siege tanks friendly fire lol, you will kill yourself your own army.
Also that s too compliacted to place well tanks, mines and move the bio and zerg can catch our army out of position and kill them all cause zerg army is very mobile.
At the beginning zergs thought mines were imba but right now they are learning to play and split they army ( as terrans does for 3 years to avoid baneling hits ) and to attack from many sides, to use overcyr in their army and sometimes use changelings.
Anyway if zergs use a bit the infestors even if got nerf ( and oh god thank blizzard to have done that after 1 year and half of imbastor broodlords era ) 3 or 4 can lock army and you can go with glings and the widow mines shots will kill glings but also bio who cannot move.
Remember the GSL match between DRG and Innovation.
Innovation even with a perfect without any mistake play lost vs DRG who played extremely well mutas glings.
So now the match is balanced, Zergs are complaining because they have to play from infestors broodlords a click spam F to mutas glings banelings ultras with many angles of attack, hit and run, detection, split and more careful attack.
Now they have to play as terran has to play from the beginning. It's not the splits my friend - it's the fact that Zergs got a bit more "smarter" at the approaching of it.. Namely - you don't see Zergs running through the minefield any longer, chasing and trying to kill the Marines.. Instead - they wanna make sure that Terran is low on Mine count, or the front layer of mines being in a very low count at least.. Using mostly Banelings for it, and they also realized that it's not the "whole minefield" you wanna get rid of, but only the frontal closest layer instead.. So yah - the Zerg's target priorities have changed - Marines are no longer the #1 target, but instead the front layer of mines first, then the Marines come as second, and then maybe if having thinned out the minefield enough from all the sides possible - then go for the kill.. That's the difference - it's not the splits (it's nearly impossible to split while running in a mine-field), it's the "layering and peel-apart layers, possibly even thin them off one another" approach that changes it.. That still doesn't change the fact that the Widow-Mine wouldnt' need some changes though.. The tank-buff for example that "follows with it" is a good idea, but not enough (should probably be 20% fire rate buff instead of only 10%) I'd say.. And there still is possibly more that can be added/changed/tweaked after that
also they run a group of 10-20 lings ahead of their army straight into the marine groups, to bait out as much mine shots as possible and pull them into the terran army for FF. Especially this move his very very effective and not that hard to pull off. Terran has basically to split his marines against not only banelings but his own mine shots. Together with better and better controlled muta/overseer flocks to one-shot mines this has decreased the effect of widow mine play by a lot over the last couple of months. As I stated many times: the success of terran in WCS korea season 2 (the only region in season 2, where terran was really successful anyways) was build on a very terran favored mappool in the OSL. You see what´s left of it, if you take away anaconda and GG Beach...
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On October 15 2013 22:30 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 22:24 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 15 2013 22:21 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 15 2013 22:17 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 15 2013 22:13 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 15 2013 22:03 VArsovskiSC wrote:On October 15 2013 21:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 15 2013 21:18 Destructicon wrote:On October 15 2013 20:53 VArsovskiSC wrote:On October 15 2013 19:57 Destructicon wrote:
[quote]
What you said is so far from the truth that it hurts.
Terran is not, at its core a race of 1 A units, in fact it is the farthest from that model, Terran is the race of units that require the most babysitting to get value out of.
Marines, marauders and ghost melt to any sort of aoe, they require constant splitting and great care when advancing. That's why you see marine splitting, kitting and storm dodging, because otherwise the terran army would just melt.
And even the other units, tanks and mines are very positional in nature, they require a great deal of thought on how to optimally place to get the maximum results, and it takes a good deal of micro to achieve that positioning. The only true 1 A units are BCs and Thors.
And your suggestions don't actually improve the game, the mine nerf already seems unnecessary when you look at how good zergs have gotten lately at dealing with them, the Thor buff doesn't do anything, its still a borring 1 A unit, but now its just cheaper and the banshees are fine the way they are.
Banshees are interesting because they have clear strengths and weaknesses, they deal very good damage, but they must be microed for maximum potential and their lack of AtA weapons makes them really vulnerable once proper counters are out. And a short range AtA attack isn't going to help them at all, mutas will still shred them because of speed, regen and glaive bounce, vikings still obliterate them from a distance and, in the unlikely case toss builds a SG, phoenix still tear them apart. Will risk to be as "rude" as your reply was to my post.. Not because it was written in a badly manner or I feel offended, but because you didn't understand at all what I wanted to say.. I dind't say that Terran was a 1-A unit race.. I said that Terran is a 1-unit (i.e. - Marine-only) race.. The difference is huuuge my friend.. Problem is that every other unit that Terran has is designed for Marine support as opposed to work on it's own in some way (Banshee is the exception there, ofc. - only if the opponent doesn't have any air).. So yah - make that difference in your head - between - 1-A, and Marine-only race.. I already understand that people are much more "burdened" with the 1-A concept, but still - Marine-only IMO is a problem (in it's own way) as well.. And TBH - even Blizz themselves know that the "Marine-only till get hard-countered" race is a problem as well - that's why they're trying to fix mech.. That may not be the only reason of why they wanna make mech work well, but surely is one of them.. Excuse me then, I saw 1A race, not 1 unit race. yes totally different discussion. And I do agree with you to some extent. Bio is a very self contained composition. However I think the problems are from both the design of the other races as well as the design of terran. I'll use a BW example here because its the model I know that worked best. In BW, you had marine, medic as the core of the army, and zerg had lings, when the game progressed into the mid game the zerg would add lurkers for space control, defense and offense, and terran added tanks to their composition to combat lurkers from a safe distance as well as for their own brand of space control, in the late game zerg got to defilers to be able to fight cost efficiently again with dark swarm and plague, meanwhile terran got to science vessel to counter defilers, masses of lings and other units. Finally the zerg would try and counter science vessels with scourge which, would be countered by marines. I use the above example because it was a closed circular counter system but also because all tech trees where used by both sides, and both sides had some sort of space control the game had a clearly flow and an overarching game plan by both sides, but a lot of things could still happen in between. That just doesn't exist in SC2 to the same extent, and its not only because bio is very efficient in and of itself, its also because the other races have very powerful tools to combat terran T3 and T2 options as well. Yes you could say, redesign terran in such a way that as the game progresses, it becomes pivotal to add a small number of thors and ravens into the mix, but that requires a radical re-assessment of the balance of all other areas. So yes, I agree with you, terran might be a bit too bio focused, but to be frank its not completely their fault, and again I'm not sure your suggested tweaks would change that. In fairness, TvZ bio play uses units from all 3 tech trees as well and is the incorporation of barracks units, supported by aoe units from the factory and supported by flying spell casters in medivacs as the game progresses. Medic looks cooler than marauder Siege tank looks cooler than widow mine Science Vessels looks cooler than medivac But it's still the same dynamic as it was in BW tech wise. Hmmmm.. Then tell me what to do as Terran if nearly all you've got is Mines and Marines and Medivacs, at the moment when the Zerg makes several Ultras with more coming on the way ? Not really complete TBH, there's still more to it that's not yet made.. If you make Marine/Medic/Tank/Vessel in BW, I don't see why you won't make Marine/Maruader/Widowmine/Medivac in SC2 Well to be faire SV oneshot defiler. Tanks do absurb damage to low health unit, medic can blind detectors so ghosts can be used with this, vessel can EMP too... And you compare BW composition with SC2. But there's no lurker and composition MMTV is for lurker based army no ? Not sure i follow. Maybe i missed the start of your discussion. The guy was initially talking about terran bio play in BW being completely different than BW and my showing that compositionally they have a lot of similarities. He was trying to suggest that Bio play in SC2 is purely tier 1 while bio play in BW used the whole tech tree when in truth the SC2 bio tech tree simply doesn't use the Fusion Core and Nukes. He then commented about what happens if Ultralisks show up in which I reinstated my point that the Medivac and the Marauder are in the same tech tier and hence if he had made Medivacs in BW he could be making Maruaders in SC2 to prevent ultralisk transitions. The Zerg side of the discussion is not present afaik. Oh so i was completly not in the point... Like at all Well that is kind of true. Your point is valid i think The soul of his point is still true despite the facts of the matter. Marauders are not as interesting as a rax based marine support as a medic. A medivac although arguably more useful and game breaking, is not as sexy a starport support unit as a science vessel. And, well, many people have talked about the Widowmine/Siege Tank discussion before so no need to elaborate. So although "facts" are on my side, I still lean heavily toward his opinion
Oh i will never contradict BW over SC2 (as you can see in my sig :p).
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EPT
