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On October 15 2013 16:42 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 16:12 playnice wrote:On October 15 2013 06:57 shid0x wrote:
Wow,blizzard actually made 2 decisions that were not completely stupid.
What is going on ?
The widow mine change is a step in the right way of balancing it,i think it still needs some test by the players in game but the basic idea is quite good.
Also imo the revelation should be permanent whether burrowed of whatever. Feels like they should just combined Revelation and Envision and make it a single spell, though it will risk completely destroying Swamhost siege, WM, Banshee, Roaches and a huge buff against clocked ghost. They would need to change all the stats like cast range and effective radius to balance it out. If they are looking to make the oracle a high priority target and important for the mid game, this seems like the way to go. Well it depends on how you would do it. I actually think it is an idea to change it so revelation also shows all cloaked units similar to normal units, and keeps them visible for the duration of the spell. That would be a unique form of detection, a bit like scan, but still different. At the same time then it is a one time thing: they stay visible, but new units entering the area are not affected and stay cloaked.
i think this will happen if that would happen
nobody will make observers anymore in pvt ..
terran will have a harder time since in lategame tvp the only time i see terran is equalized with protoss is the moment toss loses his observers and ghost go clocking start bashing units .. .
the way i see it .. ghost clocking might be rendered useless
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On October 15 2013 18:03 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 02:38 a176 wrote:
All these random balance changes, most of them he doesn't even go through with, it seems like David Kim doesn't have a fucking clue what to do with this game anymore. If they were so fucking random you will see them in games. They are testing. And some don't go through because they are not good... After seeing the recents matches, WM nerf was too strong. I'm glad they are considering another approach. Is the tank buff still on ? Muta is still quite strong but you have to be able to get to them (and that's sometimes hard). But ... i don't know how you could nerf muta. If you get the regen, WM will be so powerfull against them... if you take a bit of speed, marines will shred them... damage nerf will be really strong too... I feal that a change in muta is not going to happen
yep tank buff still on the testmap .. this is just an update on the testmap
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4713 Posts
I've thought the best way to deal with muta harass was to put 1-2 mines in between the turrets on each location, but then zergs learned how to come in and snipe mines before they are set off, so the whole thing falls flat.
And, to be frank, even leaving some units behind to help the static D would be problematic against mass mutas because the composition is so mobile they would just be able to figure out what you are doing and then run the mutas away and use them to crush your main army.
If they do decide to nerf the WM in any way, shape or form, a number of things need to happen, not all at once, but something does need to happen:
-Mutalisk speed gets reduced, probably not going to happen as people would flip their lid at the thought of medivacs flying around their bases
-Mutalisk regen is reduced by half
Or
-Auto-turrets receive an upgrade that either makes them aoe like in the campaign, or increases their strength the more turrets are near each other
Personally if we where to buff turrets I'd prefer it be done by having them increase in strength the more of them are near each other, because it feels silly and stupid for a huge flock of 20-30 mutas to be shut down by just 1-2 turrets, the terran should have to invest something as well.
But the situation we have now also feels wrong where, even if you have a huge upgraded turret ring, it still won't stop mutas once they reach a critical mass.
At this point though I'm not convinced mines need a nerf at all, zergs finally seem to have figured out how to play vs them.
I can understand Blizzard wanting bring tanks back into the fray for diversity reasons but, they need to realize that, with how the races are operating right now, nerfing the WM requires a long list of changes to other areas just to compensate.
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On October 15 2013 17:43 klup wrote:Show nested quote +Well, i never see any terran researching range + armor for turrets.
Mutalisks dont do damages to 6 armor turrets... And when they fly away, with the range, they die really more often.
If we remove the mutalisk from the zerg arsenal well... Zerg doesnt have anything scary (and fun to watch) left.
But maybe nerfing their total health could be cool. Zerg would have to take care of their muta a lot more. Well I actually do that but only using mech and it has done close to nothing. you need a pack of at least 3 armored turret to actually do dmg. But it's actually really easy to tell you why terrans dont research theses: 1) it is researched on Ebays and your ebays are used to research bio upgrades. 2) it cost a lot of gas 100/100 for the range upgrade 150/150 for the building upgrade, it is huge for upgrading static D. The only reason I do these is for PF to defend key point when I play mech. 3) the turret itself is expensive as for countering mutas properly to go in one place you need a stack of 3 turrets : 300 minerals X the number of point you want to defend. It's not viable. I don't want muta going out of the zerg arsenal. I just want terran to have actual tools to deal with it and please don't mention the thor because it's like the most slow unit of the entire game and it is not that strong vs mutas when they magic box... An upgrade for splash dmg for turrets could be a good option too as the previous poster mentionned it. a simple revert on regen of mutas could do good too but I don't like it so much because one good hit of WM could make your muta ball very vulnerable , too much I think. The idea is that you can actually move out after loosing map control vs zerg. Because if you look carefully at recent ZvT every time a terran loose the map control and stop attacking for a couple of minute. Muta harass--> terran dead. Terran should be able to leave their base and let a small troop to defend and support turrets. And turrets should scare at some point the harass of mutas. It's the only flying unit atm that just /ignore any anti air static defense and that is not normal. the problem was fixed in ZvZ with the spore buff and it was great, I often play muta in ZvZ and don't feel spore buff is abused. It is actually normal that a static D is scary at some point.
AOE damages on turret would just force muta to magic box.But this wont change their power.
Nerf their HP so that they are weaker in direct fights, but stronger if you harass, fly away, harass, fly away... And nerf spore +bio damages because they already 4 shots muta :p
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On October 15 2013 16:42 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 16:12 playnice wrote:On October 15 2013 06:57 shid0x wrote:
Wow,blizzard actually made 2 decisions that were not completely stupid.
What is going on ?
The widow mine change is a step in the right way of balancing it,i think it still needs some test by the players in game but the basic idea is quite good.
Also imo the revelation should be permanent whether burrowed of whatever. Feels like they should just combined Revelation and Envision and make it a single spell, though it will risk completely destroying Swamhost siege, WM, Banshee, Roaches and a huge buff against clocked ghost. They would need to change all the stats like cast range and effective radius to balance it out. If they are looking to make the oracle a high priority target and important for the mid game, this seems like the way to go. Well it depends on how you would do it. I actually think it is an idea to change it so revelation also shows all cloaked units similar to normal units, and keeps them visible for the duration of the spell. That would be a unique form of detection, a bit like scan, but still different. At the same time then it is a one time thing: they stay visible, but new units entering the area are not affected and stay cloaked.
Something like a AoE BW parasite with a duration. Which is kinda cool and useful.
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On October 15 2013 18:04 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 16:42 Sissors wrote:On October 15 2013 16:12 playnice wrote:On October 15 2013 06:57 shid0x wrote:
Wow,blizzard actually made 2 decisions that were not completely stupid.
What is going on ?
The widow mine change is a step in the right way of balancing it,i think it still needs some test by the players in game but the basic idea is quite good.
Also imo the revelation should be permanent whether burrowed of whatever. Feels like they should just combined Revelation and Envision and make it a single spell, though it will risk completely destroying Swamhost siege, WM, Banshee, Roaches and a huge buff against clocked ghost. They would need to change all the stats like cast range and effective radius to balance it out. If they are looking to make the oracle a high priority target and important for the mid game, this seems like the way to go. Well it depends on how you would do it. I actually think it is an idea to change it so revelation also shows all cloaked units similar to normal units, and keeps them visible for the duration of the spell. That would be a unique form of detection, a bit like scan, but still different. At the same time then it is a one time thing: they stay visible, but new units entering the area are not affected and stay cloaked. i think this will happen if that would happen nobody will make observers anymore in pvt .. terran will have a harder time since in lategame tvp the only time i see terran is equalized with protoss is the moment toss loses his observers and ghost go clocking start bashing units .. . the way i see it .. ghost clocking might be rendered useless
This definitely could happen in the current TvP late game. But no observers at all sounds extreme. Oracles are not cheap or a natural tech path, and if it get sniped by Vikings or eats EMP Protoss won't have a quick way to get detection. It's not going to be easy to even cast the spell with 2 natural counters on the field. At least it won't be an auto-loss when no Observers are left and Protoss still have an Oracle for the remaining Ghosts. Even then I don't see pro Terrans clumping their Ghosts to eat spells likes this, or stroms at that stage.
Might be an interesting dynamic. But I'm getting ahead of myself.
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On October 15 2013 18:06 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 18:03 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 15 2013 02:38 a176 wrote:
All these random balance changes, most of them he doesn't even go through with, it seems like David Kim doesn't have a fucking clue what to do with this game anymore. If they were so fucking random you will see them in games. They are testing. And some don't go through because they are not good... After seeing the recents matches, WM nerf was too strong. I'm glad they are considering another approach. Is the tank buff still on ? Muta is still quite strong but you have to be able to get to them (and that's sometimes hard). But ... i don't know how you could nerf muta. If you get the regen, WM will be so powerfull against them... if you take a bit of speed, marines will shred them... damage nerf will be really strong too... I feal that a change in muta is not going to happen yep tank buff still on the testmap .. this is just an update on the testmap
I was unsure  Thx for clarifying
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On October 15 2013 18:06 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 18:03 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 15 2013 02:38 a176 wrote:
All these random balance changes, most of them he doesn't even go through with, it seems like David Kim doesn't have a fucking clue what to do with this game anymore. If they were so fucking random you will see them in games. They are testing. And some don't go through because they are not good... After seeing the recents matches, WM nerf was too strong. I'm glad they are considering another approach. Is the tank buff still on ? Muta is still quite strong but you have to be able to get to them (and that's sometimes hard). But ... i don't know how you could nerf muta. If you get the regen, WM will be so powerfull against them... if you take a bit of speed, marines will shred them... damage nerf will be really strong too... I feal that a change in muta is not going to happen yep tank buff still on the testmap .. this is just an update on the testmap
And what do you think Mech needs to be viable TvP ?
I'm sure Blizzard would love to listen to Strelok and your thoughts about mech and what it needs to be viable and fun to watch (positionnal + no deathballish)... Strelok tried to write about it earlier this year, thought.
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On October 15 2013 18:40 Insoleet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 18:06 goody153 wrote:On October 15 2013 18:03 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 15 2013 02:38 a176 wrote:
All these random balance changes, most of them he doesn't even go through with, it seems like David Kim doesn't have a fucking clue what to do with this game anymore. If they were so fucking random you will see them in games. They are testing. And some don't go through because they are not good... After seeing the recents matches, WM nerf was too strong. I'm glad they are considering another approach. Is the tank buff still on ? Muta is still quite strong but you have to be able to get to them (and that's sometimes hard). But ... i don't know how you could nerf muta. If you get the regen, WM will be so powerfull against them... if you take a bit of speed, marines will shred them... damage nerf will be really strong too... I feal that a change in muta is not going to happen yep tank buff still on the testmap .. this is just an update on the testmap And what do you think Mech needs to be viable TvP ? I'm sure Blizzard would love to listen to Strelok and your thoughts about mech and what it needs to be viable and fun to watch (positionnal + no deathballish)... Strelok tried to write about it earlier this year, thought.
Wait... The way you are talking to this guy and comparing to Strelok thought is ... is this the REAL Goody ?
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The good thing is that they finally started to realize that it was the Terran race that is screwed up at least a bit in it's core design..
Namely it's a 1-unit race and there isn't anything else that will take at least a part of their "role" that's a higher-tier unit.. I mean - simply - the reason we see Marauders is because and/or ONLY when Marines start to die in greater numbers because of the fact that the opponent has splash..
TvZ is/was a bad matchup because Mines were designed to be a bit too anti-Zerg favored.. Now it's even worse because once the Zerg (somehow) cleans-up the marine-mine "mess" at his doorstep and gets Ultras - Terran can't do a single thing to kill them.. I mean - Terran can't afford to produce any of the Ultralisk-killing units (such as Banshee for example) because Zerg has everything that needs to guard the Ultras already from before (units that were forced by the Terran earlier on with the parade) such as Mutas and Overseers, e.t.c.. Even more so - Terran just don't have anything else good vs the Mutalisks beside the Marines (maybe Thors or sth would do, but they're too expensive to afford as well..)
However - having that in mind - I suggest the following changes TBH:
1 - reduce mine splash radius, change the mine upgrade to "store" one more mine instead.. The upgrade change is to make the Mines almost at least viable vs Protoss in the late game.. It's a win-win situation IMO - Zerg won't suffer all the splash right-away from the first time, but if they stay another say 3-5 sec - the mines (if not cleaned up) will fire again.. vs Protoss the benefit of this is that Warp-in mechanics won't "negate" the mines completely, so at the end of the day - they WILL help for some of the positional i.e. - mech - play..
2 - Reduce the Thor cost - down to 250/175 or sth, but reduce it's HP down to like 350 as well.. I mean the Voidray is already 250/150, so won't do too much problems, the good point in this however is - there will be some "point" in mixing mech and bio - like vs Ultralisks in the very late game from Zerg for example
3 - Give the Banshee an upgrade to shoot at Air units at a very close distance, or any ability of the sort to say.. Maybe sth like a 3 range barrage for some energy cost with a bit of splash - then maybe - MAYBE - there would be a point of going some of the Air play if Ultras pop-out overall..
I mean it's a bit of rusty matchup situations that Terran can't afford tech-switches while in the same time the tech they choose may seem a bit too strong (at least DPS-wise, like the bio only for example) at certain stages of the game-play..
=======================================================
The proposed changes that are already - "MIGHT WORK" - like the mine splash reduction with the Tank-firerate buff (though I think it should be even greater - about 20% faster fire instead of 10% maybe), but if that doesn't do it's thing - I think that those are "about" the changes that would be required at the end of the day..
1 - reduce mine splash
2 - change mine upgrade to have mine capacity of 2 mines each able to fire 5 seconds one after another
3 - change Thor cost a bit, reduce it's HP
4 - give the Banshee a way to defend itself from Air targets (at least temporarily) for some energy cost a bit
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On October 15 2013 18:45 Guileful wrote:
Siege tank 2.0
They won't be THAT bad!
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On October 15 2013 18:44 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 18:40 Insoleet wrote:On October 15 2013 18:06 goody153 wrote:On October 15 2013 18:03 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 15 2013 02:38 a176 wrote:
All these random balance changes, most of them he doesn't even go through with, it seems like David Kim doesn't have a fucking clue what to do with this game anymore. If they were so fucking random you will see them in games. They are testing. And some don't go through because they are not good... After seeing the recents matches, WM nerf was too strong. I'm glad they are considering another approach. Is the tank buff still on ? Muta is still quite strong but you have to be able to get to them (and that's sometimes hard). But ... i don't know how you could nerf muta. If you get the regen, WM will be so powerfull against them... if you take a bit of speed, marines will shred them... damage nerf will be really strong too... I feal that a change in muta is not going to happen yep tank buff still on the testmap .. this is just an update on the testmap And what do you think Mech needs to be viable TvP ? I'm sure Blizzard would love to listen to Strelok and your thoughts about mech and what it needs to be viable and fun to watch (positionnal + no deathballish)... Strelok tried to write about it earlier this year, thought. Wait... The way you are talking to this guy and comparing to Strelok thought is ... is this the REAL Goody ?
If I remember correctly it's the goody account... If I remember correctly.
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On October 15 2013 18:04 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 16:42 Sissors wrote:On October 15 2013 16:12 playnice wrote:On October 15 2013 06:57 shid0x wrote:
Wow,blizzard actually made 2 decisions that were not completely stupid.
What is going on ?
The widow mine change is a step in the right way of balancing it,i think it still needs some test by the players in game but the basic idea is quite good.
Also imo the revelation should be permanent whether burrowed of whatever. Feels like they should just combined Revelation and Envision and make it a single spell, though it will risk completely destroying Swamhost siege, WM, Banshee, Roaches and a huge buff against clocked ghost. They would need to change all the stats like cast range and effective radius to balance it out. If they are looking to make the oracle a high priority target and important for the mid game, this seems like the way to go. Well it depends on how you would do it. I actually think it is an idea to change it so revelation also shows all cloaked units similar to normal units, and keeps them visible for the duration of the spell. That would be a unique form of detection, a bit like scan, but still different. At the same time then it is a one time thing: they stay visible, but new units entering the area are not affected and stay cloaked. i think this will happen if that would happen nobody will make observers anymore in pvt .. terran will have a harder time since in lategame tvp the only time i see terran is equalized with protoss is the moment toss loses his observers and ghost go clocking start bashing units .. . the way i see it .. ghost clocking might be rendered useless
How so? If he has no observers, send in one ghost, emp/snipe his army. He has to spend 75 energy (probably) to decloak it. Immediatly after he did this you can send a second ghost, since it doesn't give permanent detection in an area. Not to mention an observer means that if you are making a new base and the ghost arrives, he gets detected and colossi immediatly kill it. If you have to manually activate a one-time decloak you are going to lose alot of units to snipes.
Of course it also gives advantages, but that is the point behind it.
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On October 15 2013 18:50 Insoleet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 18:44 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 15 2013 18:40 Insoleet wrote:On October 15 2013 18:06 goody153 wrote:On October 15 2013 18:03 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 15 2013 02:38 a176 wrote:
All these random balance changes, most of them he doesn't even go through with, it seems like David Kim doesn't have a fucking clue what to do with this game anymore. If they were so fucking random you will see them in games. They are testing. And some don't go through because they are not good... After seeing the recents matches, WM nerf was too strong. I'm glad they are considering another approach. Is the tank buff still on ? Muta is still quite strong but you have to be able to get to them (and that's sometimes hard). But ... i don't know how you could nerf muta. If you get the regen, WM will be so powerfull against them... if you take a bit of speed, marines will shred them... damage nerf will be really strong too... I feal that a change in muta is not going to happen yep tank buff still on the testmap .. this is just an update on the testmap And what do you think Mech needs to be viable TvP ? I'm sure Blizzard would love to listen to Strelok and your thoughts about mech and what it needs to be viable and fun to watch (positionnal + no deathballish)... Strelok tried to write about it earlier this year, thought. Wait... The way you are talking to this guy and comparing to Strelok thought is ... is this the REAL Goody ? If I remember correctly it's the goody account... If I remember correctly.
Will go back a bit (if some of you guys find it interesting):
For mech to be viable in TvP are required the following:
1 - change Widow-Mine upgrade, allow upgraded mines to have a capacity of 2 charges after the upgrade (assuming that the splash-radius nerf gets accepted)
2 - change Thor cost - reduce it's cost down to 250/175 instead of 300/200
3 - the optional change is - reduce Siege-Tank recharge time by 20% (the test map chage is a reduction on 10%, but I suggest even further - 20% for a real change)
Pretty sure that the Mech units (Tank, Thor, Hellbat) aren't THAT bad, but instead it's the fact that the Widow-mine is anti- Zerg designed unit as it currently is.. If it had like 2 charges would be viable vs Protoss as well because Protoss won't be able to "shut down" them by just saccing an innitial group of Zealots in it.. And overall - the higher single-target DPS a unit is it's designed to be vs Protoss unit, and the higher the splash-damage unit is - it's designed to be vs Zerg and/or Bio unit.. With other words - splash is nearly Irrelevant in TvP, but instead - the rate-of-fire is..
You could swap the 2: i.e. - 2 be optional, and 3 be the second change, but I think that with the newest Ultralisk buff, a Thor cost reduction overall is a required thing..
(I am silver b.t.w., couldn't quite get up to gold, but thing is - those are changes based on observation rather that on personal experiences)
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On October 15 2013 18:50 Insoleet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 18:44 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 15 2013 18:40 Insoleet wrote:On October 15 2013 18:06 goody153 wrote:On October 15 2013 18:03 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 15 2013 02:38 a176 wrote:
All these random balance changes, most of them he doesn't even go through with, it seems like David Kim doesn't have a fucking clue what to do with this game anymore. If they were so fucking random you will see them in games. They are testing. And some don't go through because they are not good... After seeing the recents matches, WM nerf was too strong. I'm glad they are considering another approach. Is the tank buff still on ? Muta is still quite strong but you have to be able to get to them (and that's sometimes hard). But ... i don't know how you could nerf muta. If you get the regen, WM will be so powerfull against them... if you take a bit of speed, marines will shred them... damage nerf will be really strong too... I feal that a change in muta is not going to happen yep tank buff still on the testmap .. this is just an update on the testmap And what do you think Mech needs to be viable TvP ? I'm sure Blizzard would love to listen to Strelok and your thoughts about mech and what it needs to be viable and fun to watch (positionnal + no deathballish)... Strelok tried to write about it earlier this year, thought. Wait... The way you are talking to this guy and comparing to Strelok thought is ... is this the REAL Goody ? If I remember correctly it's the goody account... If I remember correctly.
Mind blown
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On October 15 2013 02:35 TheDwf wrote:
Still completely out of touch with the real world, weakening Mines without anything substantial to compensate when TvZ is already becoming Zerg-favored.
+1
User was warned for this post
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On October 15 2013 19:12 The_best32 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 02:35 TheDwf wrote:
Still completely out of touch with the real world, weakening Mines without anything substantial to compensate when TvZ is already becoming Zerg-favored. +1
Pretty sure that that's map-related.. The smarter play from Zergs overall is to sac Banes into the frontal mines, and keep Terran mine-count or the front row low at least, instead of chasing the marines.. But still - think it's map-related
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On October 15 2013 19:12 The_best32 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 02:35 TheDwf wrote:
Still completely out of touch with the real world, weakening Mines without anything substantial to compensate when TvZ is already becoming Zerg-favored. +1
Damn that got reported fast
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Austria24417 Posts
That revelation thing should be in the game anyway. No reason to test this, just put it right in
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EPT
