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opterown
Australia54785 Posts
On October 09 2013 11:59 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 11:35 opterown wrote:On October 09 2013 11:11 Dodgin wrote:On October 09 2013 11:03 opterown wrote:
^ your argument hardly counters his suggestion you know what really annoys me on the internet? when someone posts " YOU'RE WRONG! " without actually explaining why they think you're wrong. His suggestion is stupid because you cannot simply scale tournament wins up because there are more of them. There are too many factors in sc2 to suggest that winning 1 tournament when there are 3 potential tournaments to play in equals winning 2 tournaments when there are 6 potential tournaments to play in. i'm on my phone and typing something out is too difficult, but i entirely disagree with how you worded your rebuttal/what your argument came from. i don't think 1/3 is equivalent to 3/9 in 'achievement', but in terms of 'dominance' or 'relevance' it's pretty similar it's one tournament no matter how you slice it, just because it lasts a few weeks longer than the old code s' doesn't change that fact. What we should look at now is how a player does at the season finals after their run in that specific WCS season. If they can do well in both then I think that shows a " level of dominance " similiar to winning multiple GSL's in 2011, and yes they are different types of tournaments but It's all we have to go on with so few seasons. Innovation, Soulkey and Mvp both did very well in season 1 after making it to the finals of their region + making top 4 at the season finals. In season 2 Bomber did extremely well with making it to top 4 in Korea + 1st in the season finals. Maru won Korea but then bombed out of the season finals, I would say overall Bomber was more dominant for season 2 but for some reason he's not even mentioned in these discussions.
hey, you're the one who says the non-KR tournaments don't mean much because they're weekend events
bomber isn't mentioned because he's fairly inconsistent and bombed out of WCS KR season 3
On October 09 2013 11:57 bittman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 11:35 opterown wrote:On October 09 2013 11:11 Dodgin wrote:On October 09 2013 11:03 opterown wrote:
^ your argument hardly counters his suggestion you know what really annoys me on the internet? when someone posts " YOU'RE WRONG! " without actually explaining why they think you're wrong. His suggestion is stupid because you cannot simply scale tournament wins up because there are more of them. There are too many factors in sc2 to suggest that winning 1 tournament when there are 3 potential tournaments to play in equals winning 2 tournaments when there are 6 potential tournaments to play in. i'm on my phone and typing something out is too difficult, but i entirely disagree with how you worded your rebuttal/what your argument came from. i don't think 1/3 is equivalent to 3/9 in 'achievement', but in terms of 'dominance' or 'relevance' it's pretty similar Well as much as people like to say WCS World < WCS Korea, honestly I see that as 1/6 still. Maru would need to win this season AND WCS world to get a look in from me as bonjwa. Same with Soulkey. Just winning either one on it's own means nothing. Innovation looked dominant when he basically had a lot of high finishes in the big tournaments in a row. He didn't even win a WCS KR when people were super hyped.
i'm not saying maru is a bonjwa or anything close to it, just saying that 3/9 is pretty similar to 1/3 in terms of relevance/dominance
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Maru - Soulkey best possible finals. So I can a TvZ finals live when I arrive next week. :DDDDD
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United States23455 Posts
On October 09 2013 12:05 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 11:59 Dodgin wrote:On October 09 2013 11:35 opterown wrote:On October 09 2013 11:11 Dodgin wrote:On October 09 2013 11:03 opterown wrote:
^ your argument hardly counters his suggestion you know what really annoys me on the internet? when someone posts " YOU'RE WRONG! " without actually explaining why they think you're wrong. His suggestion is stupid because you cannot simply scale tournament wins up because there are more of them. There are too many factors in sc2 to suggest that winning 1 tournament when there are 3 potential tournaments to play in equals winning 2 tournaments when there are 6 potential tournaments to play in. i'm on my phone and typing something out is too difficult, but i entirely disagree with how you worded your rebuttal/what your argument came from. i don't think 1/3 is equivalent to 3/9 in 'achievement', but in terms of 'dominance' or 'relevance' it's pretty similar it's one tournament no matter how you slice it, just because it lasts a few weeks longer than the old code s' doesn't change that fact. What we should look at now is how a player does at the season finals after their run in that specific WCS season. If they can do well in both then I think that shows a " level of dominance " similiar to winning multiple GSL's in 2011, and yes they are different types of tournaments but It's all we have to go on with so few seasons. Innovation, Soulkey and Mvp both did very well in season 1 after making it to the finals of their region + making top 4 at the season finals. In season 2 Bomber did extremely well with making it to top 4 in Korea + 1st in the season finals. Maru won Korea but then bombed out of the season finals, I would say overall Bomber was more dominant for season 2 but for some reason he's not even mentioned in these discussions. hey, you're the one who says the non-KR tournaments don't mean much because they're weekend events bomber isn't mentioned because he's fairly inconsistent and bombed out of WCS KR season 3 Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 11:57 bittman wrote:On October 09 2013 11:35 opterown wrote:On October 09 2013 11:11 Dodgin wrote:On October 09 2013 11:03 opterown wrote:
^ your argument hardly counters his suggestion you know what really annoys me on the internet? when someone posts " YOU'RE WRONG! " without actually explaining why they think you're wrong. His suggestion is stupid because you cannot simply scale tournament wins up because there are more of them. There are too many factors in sc2 to suggest that winning 1 tournament when there are 3 potential tournaments to play in equals winning 2 tournaments when there are 6 potential tournaments to play in. i'm on my phone and typing something out is too difficult, but i entirely disagree with how you worded your rebuttal/what your argument came from. i don't think 1/3 is equivalent to 3/9 in 'achievement', but in terms of 'dominance' or 'relevance' it's pretty similar Well as much as people like to say WCS World < WCS Korea, honestly I see that as 1/6 still. Maru would need to win this season AND WCS world to get a look in from me as bonjwa. Same with Soulkey. Just winning either one on it's own means nothing. Innovation looked dominant when he basically had a lot of high finishes in the big tournaments in a row. He didn't even win a WCS KR when people were super hyped. i'm not saying maru is a bonjwa or anything close to it, just saying that 3/9 is pretty similar to 1/3 in terms of relevance/dominance
I actually have to agree here. I don't think Maru is necessarily on Mvp level as far as calling someone a "bonjwa" but the 1/3 is pretty close to 3/9 as far as staying at the top of your game over time. The fact that he could be 2/3 would be incredible.
Blame Bomber falling out of season 3 on whatever reason caused him to drop out of challenger. That's what any reasonable, rational, DIE HARD STARTALE FAN (THIS GUY) does.
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you guys are insane if you think winning one season that lasts 8-9 weeks is the same as winning three seasons that each last 4 or 5 weeks, especially when they're not all in the same little time period and spread out between january, april and august.
If you win one starleague you're not a dominant player, period. we've had champions that win their title and then fall off never to be seen as a competitor to take the tournament again. Not only in sc2 but in BW as well.
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United States97277 Posts
I nominate Sora for bonjwa if he wins tonight
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United States23455 Posts
On October 09 2013 12:09 Dodgin wrote:
you guys are insane if you think winning one season that lasts 7 weeks is the same as winning three seasons that each last 4 or 5 weeks, especially when they're not all in the same little time period and spread out between january, april and august.
If you win one starleague you're not a dominant player, period. we've had champions that win their title and then fall off never to be seen as a competitor to take the tournament again. Not only in sc2 but in BW as well.
And then there was Maru who made ro4 in the following season (minimum). So combine those two performances and you get something pretty spectacular. Not saying he's up to Mvp level. (Mvp went out and won MLG and WCG* and especially Blizzcon during this time.) But Maru is pretty high on the SC2 totem pole right now.
*Idk if this is right.
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opterown
Australia54785 Posts
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On October 09 2013 12:12 Darkhoarse wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 12:09 Dodgin wrote:
you guys are insane if you think winning one season that lasts 7 weeks is the same as winning three seasons that each last 4 or 5 weeks, especially when they're not all in the same little time period and spread out between january, april and august.
If you win one starleague you're not a dominant player, period. we've had champions that win their title and then fall off never to be seen as a competitor to take the tournament again. Not only in sc2 but in BW as well. And then there was Maru who made ro4 in the following season (minimum). So combine those two performances and you get something pretty spectacular. Not saying he's up to Mvp level. (Mvp went out and won MLG and WCG* and especially Blizzcon during this time.) But Maru is pretty high on the SC2 totem pole right now. *Idk if this is right.
Winning a season and then making top 4 the next season is definitely impressive, but It's not even comparable to what some other players have done in terms of consistency(like nestea winning two back to back). Even though there are less seasons this year, the seasons themselves are still fairly close together time wise. In fact I don't think It's any different from last year except there was a longer break between the last WoL GSL and the start of the first HotS GSL. That and there won't be a rushed 5th season.
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why can't we all just get along
Mvp is the only SC2 Bonjwa, duh
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United States97277 Posts
On October 09 2013 12:16 Lunareste wrote:
why can't we all just get along
Mvp is the only SC2 Bonjwa, duh
but he's not even according to himself
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United States23455 Posts
On October 09 2013 12:16 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 12:12 Darkhoarse wrote:On October 09 2013 12:09 Dodgin wrote:
you guys are insane if you think winning one season that lasts 7 weeks is the same as winning three seasons that each last 4 or 5 weeks, especially when they're not all in the same little time period and spread out between january, april and august.
If you win one starleague you're not a dominant player, period. we've had champions that win their title and then fall off never to be seen as a competitor to take the tournament again. Not only in sc2 but in BW as well. And then there was Maru who made ro4 in the following season (minimum). So combine those two performances and you get something pretty spectacular. Not saying he's up to Mvp level. (Mvp went out and won MLG and WCG* and especially Blizzcon during this time.) But Maru is pretty high on the SC2 totem pole right now. *Idk if this is right. Winning a season and then making top 4 the next season is definitely impressive, but It's not even comparable to what some other players have done in terms of consistency(like nestea winning two back to back). Even though there are less seasons this year, the seasons themselves are still fairly close together time wise. In fact I don't think It's any different from last year except there was a longer break between the last WoL GSL and the start of the first HotS GSL. That and there won't be a rushed 5th season.
Yeah but comparing Nestea going back to back to this is strange to me. I mean, the level of competition and depth of top players has increased a ton since Nestea did that, even with great players headed to other regions. So that's basically why Maru I think is up there. This might be SC2's most difficult point as far as staying at the top. I mean, look how fast Bomber fell.
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United States23455 Posts
With all the stuff I've said, I think Maru can't be a bonjwa until his wrists literally explode during a game at Blizzcon and he still wins.
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On October 09 2013 12:18 Darkhoarse wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 12:16 Dodgin wrote:On October 09 2013 12:12 Darkhoarse wrote:On October 09 2013 12:09 Dodgin wrote:
you guys are insane if you think winning one season that lasts 7 weeks is the same as winning three seasons that each last 4 or 5 weeks, especially when they're not all in the same little time period and spread out between january, april and august.
If you win one starleague you're not a dominant player, period. we've had champions that win their title and then fall off never to be seen as a competitor to take the tournament again. Not only in sc2 but in BW as well. And then there was Maru who made ro4 in the following season (minimum). So combine those two performances and you get something pretty spectacular. Not saying he's up to Mvp level. (Mvp went out and won MLG and WCG* and especially Blizzcon during this time.) But Maru is pretty high on the SC2 totem pole right now. *Idk if this is right. Winning a season and then making top 4 the next season is definitely impressive, but It's not even comparable to what some other players have done in terms of consistency(like nestea winning two back to back). Even though there are less seasons this year, the seasons themselves are still fairly close together time wise. In fact I don't think It's any different from last year except there was a longer break between the last WoL GSL and the start of the first HotS GSL. That and there won't be a rushed 5th season. Yeah but comparing Nestea going back to back to this is strange to me. I mean, the level of competition and depth of top players has increased a ton since Nestea did that, even with great players headed to other regions. So that's basically why Maru I think is up there. This might be SC2's most difficult point as far as staying at the top. I mean, look how fast Bomber fell.
Even then, Soulkey has a better claim to consistency than Maru. 1st in season 1, top 4 in season 1 finals. top 6 in season 2. top 4(minimum) in season 3. Maru wasn't even in premier in season 1.
In comparison, Maru: Season 1 challenger league, season 2 1st, season 2 finals 9-12th, season 3 top 4(minimum).
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On October 09 2013 12:17 Shellshock wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 12:16 Lunareste wrote:
why can't we all just get along
Mvp is the only SC2 Bonjwa, duh but he's not even according to himself
Yeah, Bonjwa is for Brood war players. He is the King.
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Lol there's never going to be a sc2 banjo. MVP was the closest thing to it, Life had a similar aura around him, but that's about it. The game's too volatile.
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opterown
Australia54785 Posts
i don't buy "the game is too volatile" crap
sc2 has like 5x the amount of games BW had, and add international travel on top things will be a bit messier
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United States23455 Posts
On October 09 2013 12:19 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 12:18 Darkhoarse wrote:On October 09 2013 12:16 Dodgin wrote:On October 09 2013 12:12 Darkhoarse wrote:On October 09 2013 12:09 Dodgin wrote:
you guys are insane if you think winning one season that lasts 7 weeks is the same as winning three seasons that each last 4 or 5 weeks, especially when they're not all in the same little time period and spread out between january, april and august.
If you win one starleague you're not a dominant player, period. we've had champions that win their title and then fall off never to be seen as a competitor to take the tournament again. Not only in sc2 but in BW as well. And then there was Maru who made ro4 in the following season (minimum). So combine those two performances and you get something pretty spectacular. Not saying he's up to Mvp level. (Mvp went out and won MLG and WCG* and especially Blizzcon during this time.) But Maru is pretty high on the SC2 totem pole right now. *Idk if this is right. Winning a season and then making top 4 the next season is definitely impressive, but It's not even comparable to what some other players have done in terms of consistency(like nestea winning two back to back). Even though there are less seasons this year, the seasons themselves are still fairly close together time wise. In fact I don't think It's any different from last year except there was a longer break between the last WoL GSL and the start of the first HotS GSL. That and there won't be a rushed 5th season. Yeah but comparing Nestea going back to back to this is strange to me. I mean, the level of competition and depth of top players has increased a ton since Nestea did that, even with great players headed to other regions. So that's basically why Maru I think is up there. This might be SC2's most difficult point as far as staying at the top. I mean, look how fast Bomber fell. Even then, Soulkey has a better claim to consistency than Maru. 1st in season 1, top 4 in season 1 finals. top 6 in season 2. top 4(minimum) in season 3. Maru wasn't even in premier in season 1. In comparison, Maru: Season 1 challenger league, season 2 1st, season 2 finals 9-12th, season 3 top 4(minimum).
He was in Premier in Season 1 and got knocked out in the ro32 by Flash and Soulkey. But Soulkey is probably more consistent and overall has better performances. Maru needs to win here and have a good showing at the season finals to surpass him for me.
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opterown
Australia54785 Posts
On October 09 2013 12:25 Darkhoarse wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 12:19 Dodgin wrote:On October 09 2013 12:18 Darkhoarse wrote:On October 09 2013 12:16 Dodgin wrote:On October 09 2013 12:12 Darkhoarse wrote:On October 09 2013 12:09 Dodgin wrote:
you guys are insane if you think winning one season that lasts 7 weeks is the same as winning three seasons that each last 4 or 5 weeks, especially when they're not all in the same little time period and spread out between january, april and august.
If you win one starleague you're not a dominant player, period. we've had champions that win their title and then fall off never to be seen as a competitor to take the tournament again. Not only in sc2 but in BW as well. And then there was Maru who made ro4 in the following season (minimum). So combine those two performances and you get something pretty spectacular. Not saying he's up to Mvp level. (Mvp went out and won MLG and WCG* and especially Blizzcon during this time.) But Maru is pretty high on the SC2 totem pole right now. *Idk if this is right. Winning a season and then making top 4 the next season is definitely impressive, but It's not even comparable to what some other players have done in terms of consistency(like nestea winning two back to back). Even though there are less seasons this year, the seasons themselves are still fairly close together time wise. In fact I don't think It's any different from last year except there was a longer break between the last WoL GSL and the start of the first HotS GSL. That and there won't be a rushed 5th season. Yeah but comparing Nestea going back to back to this is strange to me. I mean, the level of competition and depth of top players has increased a ton since Nestea did that, even with great players headed to other regions. So that's basically why Maru I think is up there. This might be SC2's most difficult point as far as staying at the top. I mean, look how fast Bomber fell. Even then, Soulkey has a better claim to consistency than Maru. 1st in season 1, top 4 in season 1 finals. top 6 in season 2. top 4(minimum) in season 3. Maru wasn't even in premier in season 1. In comparison, Maru: Season 1 challenger league, season 2 1st, season 2 finals 9-12th, season 3 top 4(minimum). He was in Premier in Season 1 and got knocked out in the ro32 by Flash and Soulkey. But Soulkey is probably more consistent and overall has better performances. Maru needs to win here and have a good showing at the season finals to surpass him for me.
he got knocked out by soulkey only, losing 2-1 twice
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I mean if Maru winning one season this year equals winning 3 out of 9 seasons in 2011, I don't even wanna know what kind of super-bonjwa that makes soulkey. 3 1st place finishers, 3 top 8's and 3 top 4's in one year? Super bonjwa.
(see how stupid this sounds)
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United States97277 Posts
I nominate Soulkey for super bonjwa
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EPT
