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On October 04 2013 20:54 Ammanas wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 20:12 RESOqub wrote:On October 04 2013 05:13 Xiphos wrote:On October 04 2013 04:17 ctbower5 wrote:Could there be a larger collection of whining fan boys of a game that's actually dead? My God the Brood War fans are the most obnoxious community I've ever come across. The same thing happened in the financial community with the advent of online/off-site trading. The pit traders couldn't adapt to the new skill set and slowly died off. They're whining to this day about how pit trading was "real". All from the sidelines. Brood War is dead. It's impossible to comprehend just how much StarCraft II content is being put out there every day. It's literally impossible to watch every tournament much less every stream. It's so ridiculously over-saturated it's entirely inevitable some things are going to end. Tournaments will move on as will sponsors. Some teams will shut down. Some players [especially those holdovers from Brood War who haven't been able to make the transition] will retire. At some point the contraction will be over and the growth will reappear. The same will happen to both LoL and DotA 2 in the future. It happens to all markets, all businesses and all aspects of life. Markets move from one extreme to the other. To illustrate the point take a look at a chart of say, NFLX. http://finviz.com/quote.ashx?t=NFLX&ty=c&ta=0&p=mThe growth in the price of the stock was extreme - the resulting sell-off was equally extreme. Growth resumed and again is likely at an extreme. The overall trajectory is however upward. As long as the strength of the overall product is solid, it will recover in the end. Regardless of what the Brood War fan-boys want to say, StarCraft II is a solid product. Umm..in term of streaming viewership, BW is still superior than SC2's numbers. BW is reaching into a second golden age while SC2's decline is rather imminent. Sorry that you have to waste all that time writing that wall of text and killing so many brain cells with that temper tantrum of yours. Nope. At peak Brood War averages between 3 and 4k. At present, Bisu is playing BW - arguably the highest level defectee we've got. 800 viewers. LiquidHerO streaming at the same time? 1.3k viewers. Code S? Varies between 18 and 20k viewers. Note that this is being aired while most people are at university, at school or asleep. Starcraft 2 is on the order of a hundred to a thousand times more popular than Brood War. Despite the god awful Brood War community bitching and moaning endlessly, there are still hundreds of thousands playing this game every night and enjoying watching it too. You won't kill our game. Stop trying, shut up and go and watch your streams. Sometimes I think the most positive thing this community could do would be to finally kill off the Brood War community and send them off to moan and bitch elsewhere. EDIT: Seriously. I come on here to read and talk about Starcraft. I am tired of BW fanbois filling every thread with faecal matter. Can the mods do something about it? It's miserable to read. This post is not completely correct. In your first point, you do not take Afreeca TV into account. On that platform (Korean platform, may I add), BW is better off than SC2 and it reaches those 20k viewers without a problem. Bisu even said, that it is more lucrative to stream BW on Afreeca than play SC2 profesionally. At the second point, you are also not factually correct. At its peak, BW was more popular than SC2 is. Yes, globally SC2 is probably more popular one, but BW was an actual sport in Korea. Nobody probably has the numbers, but imo it is safe to say that at least as much people watched BW in Korea in its peak, as there is people watching SC2 globally right now. And to the last point, I am sorry to say (pls note, I was actually never BW fan, I just can respect the history and care enough to actually read upon the players, teams and leagues when Kespa switched) but SC2 actually IS dying in Korea. It is not worth it for sponsors to pump money into it anymore. Globally? Yeah, globally SC2 is doing completely fine. EU scene is very strong and even in US and SEA there are a lot of people caring. In Korea? Nope~ That's actually the weirdest about these discussions. A lot of people screaming 'SC2 is dying' and then a lot of people screaming 'No, we are just fine!' All this, while nobody cares to say that both of these groups are correct, it's just that the first group is talking about Korean scene, while the other group talks about the global scene. And btw, the ones killing Korean scene are not just Blizzard (although they play their role in it) or the game itself (which is actually much better in HotS then it ever was in WoL, although a little too stale in certain matchups (TvP; TvZ)), but the two groups that are supposed to be supporting it - eSF and Kespa. Their inability to work together and creating one unified scene is what's killing SC2 in Korea the most. If you ask me, they are both fucking awful and will be first to hold responsible if SC2 ever really completely dies in Korea...
Bisu didn't win anything, though. He would have had zero income.
The thing that annoys me is the sheer negativity. I enjoyed Brood War, I played it when it came out and it was a fun game. I am tired of coming on here to read about pro gamer news and being confronted with people who only venture out of their own forum to shit on a game I like.
It's bloody annoying. As someone who played both games, I consider Starcraft 2 the better game. However I don't harp on about it. I don't understand why they do.
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On October 04 2013 21:24 RESOqub wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 20:54 Ammanas wrote:On October 04 2013 20:12 RESOqub wrote:On October 04 2013 05:13 Xiphos wrote:On October 04 2013 04:17 ctbower5 wrote:Could there be a larger collection of whining fan boys of a game that's actually dead? My God the Brood War fans are the most obnoxious community I've ever come across. The same thing happened in the financial community with the advent of online/off-site trading. The pit traders couldn't adapt to the new skill set and slowly died off. They're whining to this day about how pit trading was "real". All from the sidelines. Brood War is dead. It's impossible to comprehend just how much StarCraft II content is being put out there every day. It's literally impossible to watch every tournament much less every stream. It's so ridiculously over-saturated it's entirely inevitable some things are going to end. Tournaments will move on as will sponsors. Some teams will shut down. Some players [especially those holdovers from Brood War who haven't been able to make the transition] will retire. At some point the contraction will be over and the growth will reappear. The same will happen to both LoL and DotA 2 in the future. It happens to all markets, all businesses and all aspects of life. Markets move from one extreme to the other. To illustrate the point take a look at a chart of say, NFLX. http://finviz.com/quote.ashx?t=NFLX&ty=c&ta=0&p=mThe growth in the price of the stock was extreme - the resulting sell-off was equally extreme. Growth resumed and again is likely at an extreme. The overall trajectory is however upward. As long as the strength of the overall product is solid, it will recover in the end. Regardless of what the Brood War fan-boys want to say, StarCraft II is a solid product. Umm..in term of streaming viewership, BW is still superior than SC2's numbers. BW is reaching into a second golden age while SC2's decline is rather imminent. Sorry that you have to waste all that time writing that wall of text and killing so many brain cells with that temper tantrum of yours. Nope. At peak Brood War averages between 3 and 4k. At present, Bisu is playing BW - arguably the highest level defectee we've got. 800 viewers. LiquidHerO streaming at the same time? 1.3k viewers. Code S? Varies between 18 and 20k viewers. Note that this is being aired while most people are at university, at school or asleep. Starcraft 2 is on the order of a hundred to a thousand times more popular than Brood War. Despite the god awful Brood War community bitching and moaning endlessly, there are still hundreds of thousands playing this game every night and enjoying watching it too. You won't kill our game. Stop trying, shut up and go and watch your streams. Sometimes I think the most positive thing this community could do would be to finally kill off the Brood War community and send them off to moan and bitch elsewhere. EDIT: Seriously. I come on here to read and talk about Starcraft. I am tired of BW fanbois filling every thread with faecal matter. Can the mods do something about it? It's miserable to read. This post is not completely correct. In your first point, you do not take Afreeca TV into account. On that platform (Korean platform, may I add), BW is better off than SC2 and it reaches those 20k viewers without a problem. Bisu even said, that it is more lucrative to stream BW on Afreeca than play SC2 profesionally. At the second point, you are also not factually correct. At its peak, BW was more popular than SC2 is. Yes, globally SC2 is probably more popular one, but BW was an actual sport in Korea. Nobody probably has the numbers, but imo it is safe to say that at least as much people watched BW in Korea in its peak, as there is people watching SC2 globally right now. And to the last point, I am sorry to say (pls note, I was actually never BW fan, I just can respect the history and care enough to actually read upon the players, teams and leagues when Kespa switched) but SC2 actually IS dying in Korea. It is not worth it for sponsors to pump money into it anymore. Globally? Yeah, globally SC2 is doing completely fine. EU scene is very strong and even in US and SEA there are a lot of people caring. In Korea? Nope~ That's actually the weirdest about these discussions. A lot of people screaming 'SC2 is dying' and then a lot of people screaming 'No, we are just fine!' All this, while nobody cares to say that both of these groups are correct, it's just that the first group is talking about Korean scene, while the other group talks about the global scene. And btw, the ones killing Korean scene are not just Blizzard (although they play their role in it) or the game itself (which is actually much better in HotS then it ever was in WoL, although a little too stale in certain matchups (TvP; TvZ)), but the two groups that are supposed to be supporting it - eSF and Kespa. Their inability to work together and creating one unified scene is what's killing SC2 in Korea the most. If you ask me, they are both fucking awful and will be first to hold responsible if SC2 ever really completely dies in Korea... Bisu didn't win anything, though. He would have had zero income. The thing that annoys me is the sheer negativity. I enjoyed Brood War, I played it when it came out and it was a fun game. I am tired of coming on here to read about pro gamer news and being confronted with people who only venture out of their own forum to shit on a game I like. It's bloody annoying. As someone who played both games, I consider Starcraft 2 the better game. However I don't harp on about it. I don't understand why they do.
You should first know that it is really (REALLY) rare for a Kespa player to rely on prize money to sustain himself (that is true for esF players). In Kespa, the players rely on salary which can be very high (look at the price of Jaedong's transfer, and think of the salary he has on EG, knowing that he is a BroodWar Legend). Bisu is also a huge fan favorite, his only presence in SKT1 is a huge source of exposure for them. So if he says he can make a better living from streaming BW than from playing SC2 professionaly, you either say BW is huge or SC2 is small, I think it's safe to say it's kinda both (in Korea).
As for if you liked BW and negativity, well, you need to understand people. Most SC2 pros are players coming from BW (especially in Korea and not only Kespa players). The Kespa players have played BW for a living for years, it's usually the first game they really had passion for (read Bisu's interviews if you want, he deaply loved BW, he isn't quitting only because of his lack of results but also because he didn't enjoy the game that much, and also because the fans were getting less and less numerous). A part of the community (including me and you) have played BW. Personally I perfectly understand the Kespa players, SC2 is not as enjoyable to me as BW, players such as Ret have spoken publicly about that (watch Meta episode 16 I think). They wish SC2 was more like BW, even Artosis and Tasteless speak more and more about SC1 on GSL broadcasts. My point is that, negativity has to exist if we want to make SC2 a better game, because either we make SC2 a game that is much like BroodWar (not that bad I guess, not perfect though), either you make a good yet totally different game (because you either listen to the negative people or you don't). We should look towards improving the game and use everything we have (including negativity) to do so.
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The problem with sc2 in korea is that the audience TRIED to speak, the Korean community cried out to Blizzard early on. Team games are HUGE in korea, it's what everyone in PC rooms plays. As I'm there now, I can see people playing LOL, Syphers, Sudden attack, MMORPG's like Aeon (not sure what game it is) and FIFA. They play together. Most of the people who play SCBW played team games, because it's fun. They loved to WATCH 1v1 BW, but rarely played 1v1. They would play with team mates, then maybe 1v1v1v1 with each other. Then maybe a 1v1.
SC2 is horribly balanced in 2v2+, the game is who can rush out the most t1 units, in some kind of ball, and a-move. In 1v1 we may see some great games, spread all across the map, but in 2v2 the games over in 10 minutes with powerful rushes, and that put off the majority of Korean players. They begged and pleaded with Blizz to balance out the team games, make them more fun, but Blizz focussed on the 1v1, and only the 1v1 as they wanted a game which could be the next big esport. They negelected the team games, and have paid a price.
Solo queue is popular in the west, because we play at home. We play to kick ass, and we play AGAINST our friends in the majority. But when you sit next to other people, you want to play team games and that's what fucked up SC2 in Korea.
They could make it better by releasing patches which ONLY work on team games. Make the units weaker, or make a few tweaks to damage in multiplayer, and then tell the players units act differently in 1v1 queue. But it will never happen, and SC2 will die.
Advertise the fact it's F2P in PC rooms, fuck you want it to live make it F2P in Korea completely. Run ads in the Korean client, and if you buy the game they're disabled. Give them no skins or exp to play at home if they don't pay, but allow them to ladder. Block team games if you don't buy at home, then allow them in the PC rooms. Then advertise the fucking game. Not by showing cinematics, but by showing gameplay. Hire some Korean celebrities to do adverts, pay to get shows to use the game in their dramas, pay to get people to talk about it. Not just progamers, but singers and actors too. LoL advertised on OGN, and other channels, then paid to have the games played live and on TV. They developed an interest in the game by doing something. Not just sitting on their asses doing nothing.
Also, you want to make it more popular? Don't rely on the pro-scene to advertise the game. They suck at marketing, and if you have no interest in the game you're not going to get it from there.
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Negativity has never improved anything. Constructive criticism gets noticed, not negativity which is just tuned out.
The irony that balance suggestions are banned here but balance whining is mostly just frowned on is not lost. The situation should be reversed.
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I agree on Korea killing itself. Still remember the heavy resistance they faced before release and after it and then 2 Years later where Kespa tried to take over everything in one sweep. Otherwise Sc2 would have probably took over just as smoothly as in the rest of the World. But I enjoyed the 2 Gom years alot.
And BWs competition was a game were the winning strategy was to mass one unit. Where the game had neither an editor nor something close to the Battlenet. Whereas Sc2s competition is a game that managed to bring f2p (where people still pay alot) and competition that is not pay2win together. All that in a time were MMOs basically all became pay2win bigtime. LoL couldn't have been released at a better time.
And Blizzards bonus points for their RTS games were kind of negated. Everyone had something close to a Bnet, where Blizzard had to scrap their Bnet just before release of Sc2. The Editor is better then ever ... but people can get small games made by professionals for minimal money.
And BW wouldn't have lasted a year without those 2 things being so unique. Or would have looked vastly different anyway, since people would have stopped playing Sc1 multiplayer rather quickly or just Zerg only.
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RIP SC2. I played during beta and WoL, and followed the pro-scene from the ground up until HotS. Those Artosis/Tasteless GomTV days will forever be in my heart.
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On October 04 2013 17:14 MichaelDonovan wrote:
I don't understand how you can buy Lee Jaedong and then not give him a team house. Wtf.
LOL... ugh... I wonder what the Koreans feel of this.
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I think people making a big mistake. I believe without sc2 being released sc1 would die anyway because of the growing popularity of dota type games. LoL would stomp sc:bw anyway and it is by far even in Korea right? The mistake people now doing is blaming sc2. And thats way to simple and way to wrong.
But always love to see people going into a forum or even create an account to just type "RIP SC2", thats real dedication, even more dedication "SC2 Fans" have.
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On October 04 2013 22:06 OptimusYale wrote:
The problem with sc2 in korea is that the audience TRIED to speak, the Korean community cried out to Blizzard early on. Team games are HUGE in korea, it's what everyone in PC rooms plays. As I'm there now, I can see people playing LOL, Syphers, Sudden attack, MMORPG's like Aeon (not sure what game it is) and FIFA. They play together. Most of the people who play SCBW played team games, because it's fun. They loved to WATCH 1v1 BW, but rarely played 1v1. They would play with team mates, then maybe 1v1v1v1 with each other. Then maybe a 1v1.
SC2 is horribly balanced in 2v2+, the game is who can rush out the most t1 units, in some kind of ball, and a-move. In 1v1 we may see some great games, spread all across the map, but in 2v2 the games over in 10 minutes with powerful rushes, and that put off the majority of Korean players. They begged and pleaded with Blizz to balance out the team games, make them more fun, but Blizz focussed on the 1v1, and only the 1v1 as they wanted a game which could be the next big esport. They negelected the team games, and have paid a price.
Solo queue is popular in the west, because we play at home. We play to kick ass, and we play AGAINST our friends in the majority. But when you sit next to other people, you want to play team games and that's what fucked up SC2 in Korea.
They could make it better by releasing patches which ONLY work on team games. Make the units weaker, or make a few tweaks to damage in multiplayer, and then tell the players units act differently in 1v1 queue. But it will never happen, and SC2 will die.
Advertise the fact it's F2P in PC rooms, fuck you want it to live make it F2P in Korea completely. Run ads in the Korean client, and if you buy the game they're disabled. Give them no skins or exp to play at home if they don't pay, but allow them to ladder. Block team games if you don't buy at home, then allow them in the PC rooms. Then advertise the fucking game. Not by showing cinematics, but by showing gameplay. Hire some Korean celebrities to do adverts, pay to get shows to use the game in their dramas, pay to get people to talk about it. Not just progamers, but singers and actors too. LoL advertised on OGN, and other channels, then paid to have the games played live and on TV. They developed an interest in the game by doing something. Not just sitting on their asses doing nothing.
Also, you want to make it more popular? Don't rely on the pro-scene to advertise the game. They suck at marketing, and if you have no interest in the game you're not going to get it from there.
quoting this because of how true it is
User was warned for this post
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TLADT24920 Posts
On October 05 2013 07:39 tadL wrote:
I think people making a big mistake. I believe without sc2 being released sc1 would die anyway because of the growing popularity of dota type games. LoL would stomp sc:bw anyway and it is by far even in Korea right? The mistake people now doing is blaming sc2. And thats way to simple and way to wrong.
But always love to see people going into a forum or even create an account to just type "RIP SC2", thats real dedication, even more dedication "SC2 Fans" have.
LoL and BW are different games. Unlike LoL, BW has a history in Korea. It was their national sport and majority of Koreans were aware of it and most(to be on the safe side) were proud of their domination of the scene. SCII's release actually killed BW which is why BW fans are always pissed about SCII so I disagree with the idea that SCII prolonged BW's life. Most BW fans would prefer that BW died a natural death in another 5 years or so at least when its time has come than have it killed by Blizzard(this goes to the broadcasting lawsuits and stuff).
LoL is big, yes but it's a moba game compared to BW which is an rts game. As mentioned, lots of players played UMS and team games in BW but from that, they got an appreciation for 1v1 and just how amazing BW players like Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Jangbi, Stork, Fantasy etc... are to be able to play at the level they do. Bisu also said in his interview that the fans leaving and never coming back was one of the things that hurt him the most. He loved BW and got motivated to become an even better players for the fans. Loved the cheers, the audience, the excitement of it all but then, it vanished after the switch. On a side note, Bisu is streaming atm with 1114 viewers compared to 2543 viewers for HerO. Now add in his afreeca numbers(several thousand at least, check here: http://afreeca.com/rlaxordyd) and his viewer count surpasses HerO's. He's also getting so much money from streaming even though he keeps telling the fans to watch other streamers and help them out XD
Either way, SCII isn't doing well in Korea at all. PL is in a pretty bad place as evident by Kespa's announcement about PL from a while back. Personally, I think we'll see SCII disappear from Korea and be centralized to mostly EU. The AM scene is rather weak with not many tourneys so players in this region will decline, only natural. How long the EU scene will last though is a mystery to me lol. As for BW, I think with more retirements to come, SRT/SSL will become bigger, maybe enough for a bigger sponsor but who knows?  Before anyone calls me a diehard BW fanboy(I admit I love BW), I played BW, mostly games against AI(FMP) or BGH way back after its release. I played SCII right at release and for about 2 years after then eventually got sick of how games were playing out(same strats over and over ><). I would say I've easily played more SCII than BW but based on my time with both games, they are quite different.
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On October 04 2013 22:06 OptimusYale wrote:
The problem with sc2 in korea is that the audience TRIED to speak, the Korean community cried out to Blizzard early on. Team games are HUGE in korea, it's what everyone in PC rooms plays. As I'm there now, I can see people playing LOL, Syphers, Sudden attack, MMORPG's like Aeon (not sure what game it is) and FIFA. They play together. Most of the people who play SCBW played team games, because it's fun. They loved to WATCH 1v1 BW, but rarely played 1v1. They would play with team mates, then maybe 1v1v1v1 with each other. Then maybe a 1v1.
SC2 is horribly balanced in 2v2+, the game is who can rush out the most t1 units, in some kind of ball, and a-move. In 1v1 we may see some great games, spread all across the map, but in 2v2 the games over in 10 minutes with powerful rushes, and that put off the majority of Korean players. They begged and pleaded with Blizz to balance out the team games, make them more fun, but Blizz focussed on the 1v1, and only the 1v1 as they wanted a game which could be the next big esport. They negelected the team games, and have paid a price.
Solo queue is popular in the west, because we play at home. We play to kick ass, and we play AGAINST our friends in the majority. But when you sit next to other people, you want to play team games and that's what fucked up SC2 in Korea.
They could make it better by releasing patches which ONLY work on team games. Make the units weaker, or make a few tweaks to damage in multiplayer, and then tell the players units act differently in 1v1 queue. But it will never happen, and SC2 will die.
Advertise the fact it's F2P in PC rooms, fuck you want it to live make it F2P in Korea completely. Run ads in the Korean client, and if you buy the game they're disabled. Give them no skins or exp to play at home if they don't pay, but allow them to ladder. Block team games if you don't buy at home, then allow them in the PC rooms. Then advertise the fucking game. Not by showing cinematics, but by showing gameplay. Hire some Korean celebrities to do adverts, pay to get shows to use the game in their dramas, pay to get people to talk about it. Not just progamers, but singers and actors too. LoL advertised on OGN, and other channels, then paid to have the games played live and on TV. They developed an interest in the game by doing something. Not just sitting on their asses doing nothing.
Also, you want to make it more popular? Don't rely on the pro-scene to advertise the game. They suck at marketing, and if you have no interest in the game you're not going to get it from there.
Probably the best post I've read altogether..
It's funny how ironic that sounds, but I guess it's true that - all the best 1v1 players come out of a team-friendly environment..
Also - here's a bit of more history to why the foreigners might not quite like the game as well:
--> WoL was a TEERIBLE game for quite a long time, in fact it was terrible for most of it's existence (balance-wise), and they seem to make the same patch mistakes again (less severe though, but seems like that)..
First of all - in WoL Ghosts were an all-kill Zerg universal unit, with no matter what the Zerg had, just mass Ghost and snipe the s*it out of all Zerg.. That stance stayed for like almost a year - which is too long, think that that should've been reacted immediately after the first Blizzcon.. I mean the SC2 tourney wasn't as big and as "hyped" thing from Blizzard, it was just a nice "addition" to the Blizzcon overall.. Now it's the other way round.. Everyone wants to see the final 16 at Blizzcon, and then maybe get "surprised" by new things overall..
However - after quite a while - when ppl (read some of the Zergs) lost interest - they overnerfed the Snipe to work only on HT, Infestor and Queen, other units were practically useless to snipe.. Again - bad move, even EMP did better.. True that they did in fact react on time with the EMP nerf a bit later as well - a problem that was identified vs Protoss in mid-game, but then after PvZ was like BS.. Infestor became the new vs P "Ghost" - Infestor (that all the Terrans love to talk about while in fact, it was the Protoss tears that mattered  ) became a late-game all-kill massing unit..
And just the very last few months the game became good to watch/play cause there were no imbalances, Infesteds lost the Upgrade bonuses, and Neural Parasite lost cast range that you could actually snipe Infestors with Colossi on time, but it didn't matter cause again - another Zerg won the GSL in a finals of ZvZ anyways..
Now in HotS the same mistake too - they over-buffed the Ultra (to save from nerfing the Widow-Mine, in fact - doesn't even need a nerf, it needs a change to how it works - better vs Protoss, worse vs Zerg, that's what is wrong with the unit.. - thing), but again - the same problem - they gave the Ultra a bonus of +50 HP to the point where they're now unstoppable with Bio, and now they're nerfing the Widow-Mine after anyways..
I mean - even if you really liked to try - you just can't help yourself to not notice those patch-wise mistakes..
Even in competitive mindset - the game still has flaws.. I mean it's much better than WoL was, but still - they need experiment more with the patch-changes before making weird change suggestions and be more on time with the changes that way..
As a conclusion I think here's where those mistakes come from anyways:
Balance-wise I think that Blizz (or at least DK) has an agenda problem with the mindset of - if you fix timings well then the all-tech 200/200 late game will get fixed as well.. Not necessarily untrue, but the problem is to first try and "stop" the problem anyways instead of finding ways to "counteract" with things that come after it I guess.. Otherwise don't think that they'd have buffed the Ultra TBH..
And THAT comes on top of everything else you said about the lack of teamplay.. Though you guys (Koreans) might get too rushy with all-ins in teamplays..
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On October 06 2013 19:07 VArsovskiSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 22:06 OptimusYale wrote:
The problem with sc2 in korea is that the audience TRIED to speak, the Korean community cried out to Blizzard early on. Team games are HUGE in korea, it's what everyone in PC rooms plays. As I'm there now, I can see people playing LOL, Syphers, Sudden attack, MMORPG's like Aeon (not sure what game it is) and FIFA. They play together. Most of the people who play SCBW played team games, because it's fun. They loved to WATCH 1v1 BW, but rarely played 1v1. They would play with team mates, then maybe 1v1v1v1 with each other. Then maybe a 1v1.
SC2 is horribly balanced in 2v2+, the game is who can rush out the most t1 units, in some kind of ball, and a-move. In 1v1 we may see some great games, spread all across the map, but in 2v2 the games over in 10 minutes with powerful rushes, and that put off the majority of Korean players. They begged and pleaded with Blizz to balance out the team games, make them more fun, but Blizz focussed on the 1v1, and only the 1v1 as they wanted a game which could be the next big esport. They negelected the team games, and have paid a price.
Solo queue is popular in the west, because we play at home. We play to kick ass, and we play AGAINST our friends in the majority. But when you sit next to other people, you want to play team games and that's what fucked up SC2 in Korea.
They could make it better by releasing patches which ONLY work on team games. Make the units weaker, or make a few tweaks to damage in multiplayer, and then tell the players units act differently in 1v1 queue. But it will never happen, and SC2 will die.
Advertise the fact it's F2P in PC rooms, fuck you want it to live make it F2P in Korea completely. Run ads in the Korean client, and if you buy the game they're disabled. Give them no skins or exp to play at home if they don't pay, but allow them to ladder. Block team games if you don't buy at home, then allow them in the PC rooms. Then advertise the fucking game. Not by showing cinematics, but by showing gameplay. Hire some Korean celebrities to do adverts, pay to get shows to use the game in their dramas, pay to get people to talk about it. Not just progamers, but singers and actors too. LoL advertised on OGN, and other channels, then paid to have the games played live and on TV. They developed an interest in the game by doing something. Not just sitting on their asses doing nothing.
Also, you want to make it more popular? Don't rely on the pro-scene to advertise the game. They suck at marketing, and if you have no interest in the game you're not going to get it from there.
Probably the best post I've read altogether.. It's funny how ironic that sounds, but I guess it's true that - all the best 1v1 players come out of a team-friendly environment.. Also - here's a bit of more history to why the foreigners might not quite like the game as well: --> WoL was a TEERIBLE game for quite a long time, in fact it was terrible for most of it's existence (balance-wise), and they seem to make the same patch mistakes again (less severe though, but seems like that).. First of all - in WoL Ghosts were an all-kill Zerg universal unit, with no matter what the Zerg had, just mass Ghost and snipe the s*it out of all Zerg.. That stance stayed for like almost a year - which is too long, think that that should've been reacted immediately after the first Blizzcon.. I mean the SC2 tourney wasn't as big and as "hyped" thing from Blizzard, it was just a nice "addition" to the Blizzcon overall.. Now it's the other way round.. Everyone wants to see the final 16 at Blizzcon, and then maybe get "surprised" by new things overall.. However - after quite a while - when ppl (read some of the Zergs) lost interest - they overnerfed the Snipe to work only on HT, Infestor and Queen, other units were practically useless to snipe.. Again - bad move, even EMP did better.. True that they did in fact react on time with the EMP nerf a bit later as well - a problem that was identified vs Protoss in mid-game, but then after PvZ was like BS.. Infestor became the new vs P "Ghost" - Infestor (that all the Terrans love to talk about while in fact, it was the Protoss tears that mattered ) became a late-game all-kill massing unit.. And just the very last few months the game became good to watch/play cause there were no imbalances, Infesteds lost the Upgrade bonuses, and Neural Parasite lost cast range that you could actually snipe Infestors with Colossi on time, but it didn't matter cause again - another Zerg won the GSL in a finals of ZvZ anyways.. Now in HotS the same mistake too - they over-buffed the Ultra (to save from nerfing the Widow-Mine, in fact - doesn't even need a nerf, it needs a change to how it works - better vs Protoss, worse vs Zerg, that's what is wrong with the unit.. - thing), but again - the same problem - they gave the Ultra a bonus of +50 HP to the point where they're now unstoppable with Bio, and now they're nerfing the Widow-Mine after anyways.. I mean - even if you really liked to try - you just can't help yourself to not notice those patch-wise mistakes.. Even in competitive mindset - the game still has flaws.. I mean it's much better than WoL was, but still - they need experiment more with the patch-changes before making weird change suggestions and be more on time with the changes that way.. As a conclusion I think here's where those mistakes come from anyways: Balance-wise I think that Blizz (or at least DK) has an agenda problem with the mindset of - if you fix timings well then the all-tech 200/200 late game will get fixed as well.. Not necessarily untrue, but the problem is to first try and "stop" the problem anyways instead of finding ways to "counteract" with things that come after it I guess.. Otherwise don't think that they'd have buffed the Ultra TBH.. And THAT comes on top of everything else you said about the lack of teamplay.. Though you guys (Koreans) might get too rushy with all-ins in teamplays..
EDIT: Sorry , mods delete this post, meant to edit, not quote it..
EDIT again: lol, didn't know that double-posting was allowed anyways
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So what's gonna happen to jaedong?
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DES article here suggests that EG-TL is has indeed decided to not participate in the next Proleague.
Another article here says that Jaedong has moved into his older brother's house and is practicing there. It's not clear how permanent the arrangement is, but he plans to participate in WCS America Season 3 as expected.
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On October 09 2013 05:57 juki wrote:DES article here suggests that EG-TL is has indeed decided to not participate in the next Proleague. Another article here says that Jaedong has moved into his older brother's house and is practicing there. It's not clear how permanent the arrangement is, but he plans to participate in WCS America Season 3 as expected.
Well that's a load of dogshit.
JD needs to basically tell EG to get him into a real team house or just ditch them. He's been doing so well, I'd hate to see him start falling off because of lack of good practice. If he becomes a stay-at-home EG streaming hero I will have to go into therapy.
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cool. I've read over the last month that the problem is
-too many patches
-not enough patches/game is imbalanced
-wcs ruined everything
-the game is worse than bw
and now it's that the game isn't balanced for team games
all while the answer that seems apparent is the most popular games right now are free to play.
and that's fine. I don't need sc2 to be the most popular. I prefer to watch and play an intense 1v1 game than team based games.
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On October 09 2013 06:07 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 05:57 juki wrote:DES article here suggests that EG-TL is has indeed decided to not participate in the next Proleague. Another article here says that Jaedong has moved into his older brother's house and is practicing there. It's not clear how permanent the arrangement is, but he plans to participate in WCS America Season 3 as expected. Well that's a load of dogshit. JD needs to basically tell EG to get him into a real team house or just ditch them. He's been doing so well, I'd hate to see him start falling off because of lack of good practice. If he becomes a stay-at-home EG streaming hero I will have to go into therapy.
But EG can still afford to fly him all over the world. You could argue that experience was more critical to his improvement than having a real team house with Coach Park.
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Pretty sure EG will downsize their roster now. They signed aLive, Oz and Revival for Proleague, and they might struggle keeping JD.
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Admittedly, I think it's become really difficult to stay positive about SC2 with all the negativity and doomsday shit going on.
I hope Artosis has earned enough by now so that he and his family never have to work again once SC2 goes down.
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EPT
