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4713 Posts
On October 02 2013 20:44 Figgy wrote:
Blizz really needs to get their shit together and start changing up the metagame every month or get some ridiculous maps like Kespa did right away and then completely stopped for some reason.
Buff the hell out of units, nerf others.
Balance? No one ACTUALLY gives a crap other than the players, the fans don't care one bit. What is killing SC2 is that the metagame has stayed exactly the same since the hellbat nerfs and will never change until legacy, by then it will be too late.
Terran does the exact same thing in every TvP and TvZ ever outside the occasional 2 rax,
It's got to the point where I don't even watch SC2 unless a game has 90%+ recommended because it's the same shit I was watching 2 months ago with absolutely no change.
It needs to be fixed.
That's a terrible way to go about balancing an RTS. What works for MoBA's doesn't work for RTS games. While MoBA's give the illusion of there being more variety due to more champions being viable, a lot of the core strategies of the meta-game don't actually change.
You still early game oriented comps, mid game oriented comps, late game oriented comps, pushing comps, aoe comps, split push comps etc. The lanes work relatively the same, you have your carry, a support to back him up, a flexible farm dependent hero mid and a survivalist style hero on the suicide lane with a jungles. The roles and the overall strategies don't change, what changes is the pieces that go into the strategies.
What I said is more so regarding League, DoTA is a ton more flexible in that regard but even there the picks/bans and team building adheres to some rules.
What you are asking for in SC2 is the equivalent of flat out breaking the meta and introducing just ridiculous things like 3 mid, or 3 junglers, all support teams or all tank teams, full caster teams, like just going against the grain and flow of everything that has been built and everything that has been experimented with up until now.
What we could use though is indeed more variety, for SC2 to go more towards DoTA and less towards LoL in the sense that we gain more viable MUs, more viable units and richer more intricate strategies, instead of having the set in stone carry support bot, flexible mid, jungler and survivable top we should have the 2-1-2 or the trilanes or the dual jungles of DoTA.
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On October 02 2013 19:38 Kazeyonoma wrote:
=( choya is one of the best people ever, this sucks. hope FXO.KR finds a new sponsor asap.
I just realised...
Hyvaa = Chipmunk 1
Noblesse = Chipmunk 2
CHOYA = Chipmunk 3?!?
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On October 02 2013 20:36 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 19:32 RaZorwire wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 02 2013 14:18 a176 wrote:
gj david kim Oh shut up. Just shut up. Not liking the balance philosophy of SC2 is one thing, but personally blaming the balance designer for a sponsor leaving its team is fucking absurd. Get some perspective, jesus christ. This bullshit "David Kim is the root of all evil"-bandwagon that started with oov's interview is already getting old. Do any of you seriously think SC2 would be doing fine in Korea if Blizzard just kept the game unbalanced? If Protoss couldn't compete for two years until some guy figured out how to use DT:s against Swarm Hosts or whatever, the game would be popular? All the sponsors leaving, all the teams disbanding, all the players retiring; all of that can just be laid directly at David Kim's feet, for having the nerve to try and acctually care about the game Blizzard has created and to make sure everyone can compete on a fair battleground? No. NO. Absolutely not. The reason Korean Starcraft 2 isn't doing well is complex and not something that can be summarized into a single one-liner blaming everything on a balance designer. If you really are interested in knowing what is going on with the Korean Starcraft scene and why the game isn't doing as well as its predecessor, this is a good place to start: The main point is that BW was essentially free to play, since PC bangs were able to run cracked versions of the game, while SC2 requires you to pay for an account. There are more things to discuss than that, of course, but "David Kim is evil" is not one of them. SC2 is serously lacking in fun department, which has been cited by many pros and which is by far the most crucial part of any game. Blizzard devs clearly not doing a great job. And btw, sc2 is basically free now, but i don't see it getting any popular. And I don't think we should be listening Khaldor on these matters, with all due respect.
If SC2 was lacking in the fun department, it wouldn't have been able to create a foreign community in just a year that by far surpassed anything BW managed to accomplish outside of Korea in 12 years.
That some people prefer BW and a few even dislike SC2 is perfectly understandable, but if that really was the problem holding it back, it would never have been the biggest e-sports title in 2010-2011 to begin with. We would never have had 120 000 concurrent viewers on a tournament stream if a majority of Starcraft fans thought the game was boring.
And I'm not sure what you mean by saying "sc2 is basically free now", because it isn't. The spawning function is great, but it relies on having friends who already own the game to play with, and outside of a few select time-limited offers, it only allows you to play Terran. It's not a replacement for having full access to the game for free. And even if that was the case, it might just be too late if most of the potential fans in Korea have already moved on to LoL or WoT or whatever.
And why wouldn't we listen to Khaldor, exactly? He's lived in Korea for a long time and has good insight in Korean gaming culture. Everything he says makes perfect sense. People are only doing the "SC2 not fun enough" dance because hating on Blizzard is what the cool kids do here on TL. I mean, don't get me wrong, it's fine to dislike the game, and trying to discuss how to make it better is always welcome, but the main problem with SC2 is not the game itself. If we could be the biggest e-sport in the world in 2011 (when the gameplay was even less developed than today), that's clearly not what's holding us back now.
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What happened to the other branches?
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On October 02 2013 19:32 RaZorwire wrote:Oh shut up. Just shut up. Not liking the balance philosophy of SC2 is one thing, but personally blaming the balance designer for a sponsor leaving its team is fucking absurd. Get some perspective, jesus christ. This bullshit "David Kim is the root of all evil"-bandwagon that started with oov's interview is already getting old. Do any of you seriously think SC2 would be doing fine in Korea if Blizzard just kept the game unbalanced
You think SC2 is "doing fine" in Korea???
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It didnt start from Oov's interview DK had bad reputation in Korea from long ago.
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On October 02 2013 22:20 zezamer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 19:32 RaZorwire wrote:On October 02 2013 14:18 a176 wrote:
gj david kim Oh shut up. Just shut up. Not liking the balance philosophy of SC2 is one thing, but personally blaming the balance designer for a sponsor leaving its team is fucking absurd. Get some perspective, jesus christ. This bullshit "David Kim is the root of all evil"-bandwagon that started with oov's interview is already getting old. Do any of you seriously think SC2 would be doing fine in Korea if Blizzard just kept the game unbalanced You think SC2 is "doing fine" in Korea???
No, that's not even close to what I wrote, read my post again.
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On October 02 2013 22:28 DinoToss wrote:
It didnt start from Oov's interview DK had bad reputation in Korea from long ago.
Of course DK has come under fire before, but the latest wave of "thanks David Kim"-posts here on TL.net started with oov's interview.
And speaking of David Kim, take at look at the winrates for September 2013:
http://aligulac.com/reports/
Just thought I'd leave that here, as a sidenote.
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United States23455 Posts
On October 02 2013 22:20 zezamer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 19:32 RaZorwire wrote:On October 02 2013 14:18 a176 wrote:
gj david kim Oh shut up. Just shut up. Not liking the balance philosophy of SC2 is one thing, but personally blaming the balance designer for a sponsor leaving its team is fucking absurd. Get some perspective, jesus christ. This bullshit "David Kim is the root of all evil"-bandwagon that started with oov's interview is already getting old. Do any of you seriously think SC2 would be doing fine in Korea if Blizzard just kept the game unbalanced You think SC2 is "doing fine" in Korea???
That's not what he said.
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On October 02 2013 19:32 RaZorwire wrote:Oh shut up. Just shut up. Not liking the balance philosophy of SC2 is one thing, but personally blaming the balance designer for a sponsor leaving its team is fucking absurd. Get some perspective, jesus christ. This bullshit "David Kim is the root of all evil"-bandwagon that started with oov's interview is already getting old. Do any of you seriously think SC2 would be doing fine in Korea if Blizzard just kept the game unbalanced? If Protoss couldn't compete for two years until some guy figured out how to use DT:s against Swarm Hosts or whatever, the game would be popular? All the sponsors leaving, all the teams disbanding, all the players retiring; all of that can just be laid directly at David Kim's feet, for having the nerve to try and acctually care about the game Blizzard has created and to make sure everyone can compete on a fair battleground? No. NO. Absolutely not. The reason Korean Starcraft 2 isn't doing well is complex and not something that can be summarized into a single one-liner blaming everything on a balance designer. If you really are interested in knowing what is going on with the Korean Starcraft scene and why the game isn't doing as well as its predecessor, this is a good place to start: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CI60fgk2oN4 The main point is that BW was essentially free to play, since PC bangs were able to run cracked versions of the game, while SC2 requires you to pay for an account. There are more things to discuss than that, of course, but "David Kim is evil" is not one of them.
thank you very much for this post. i had to facepalm pretty hard at the comment you mentioned and i didn't know how to answer. but you said it better than i ever could!
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On October 02 2013 19:32 RaZorwire wrote:Oh shut up. Just shut up. Not liking the balance philosophy of SC2 is one thing, but personally blaming the balance designer for a sponsor leaving its team is fucking absurd. Get some perspective, jesus christ. This bullshit "David Kim is the root of all evil"-bandwagon that started with oov's interview is already getting old. Do any of you seriously think SC2 would be doing fine in Korea if Blizzard just kept the game unbalanced? If Protoss couldn't compete for two years until some guy figured out how to use DT:s against Swarm Hosts or whatever, the game would be popular? All the sponsors leaving, all the teams disbanding, all the players retiring; all of that can just be laid directly at David Kim's feet, for having the nerve to try and acctually care about the game Blizzard has created and to make sure everyone can compete on a fair battleground? No. NO. Absolutely not. The reason Korean Starcraft 2 isn't doing well is complex and not something that can be summarized into a single one-liner blaming everything on a balance designer. If you really are interested in knowing what is going on with the Korean Starcraft scene and why the game isn't doing as well as its predecessor, this is a good place to start: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CI60fgk2oN4 The main point is that BW was essentially free to play, since PC bangs were able to run cracked versions of the game, while SC2 requires you to pay for an account. There are more things to discuss than that, of course, but "David Kim is evil" is not one of them.
Completely off topic but What oov interview? I havent found anything despite my efforts (maybe I just suck at searching  )
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adding LAN and making multiplayer free is the only way to attract more players to SC2.
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On October 03 2013 00:31 illidanx wrote:
adding LAN and making multiplayer free is the only way to attract more players to SC2.
You mean to finally get a lot of cracked versions out is the only way to attract more players? Because without Bnet slavery there is no reason to buy the game, right?
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fOu is not bad. The name always goes well with player's name.
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United States23455 Posts
On October 02 2013 20:44 Figgy wrote:
Blizz really needs to get their shit together and start changing up the metagame every month or get some ridiculous maps like Kespa did right away and then completely stopped for some reason.
Buff the hell out of units, nerf others.
Balance? No one ACTUALLY gives a crap other than the players, the fans don't care one bit. What is killing SC2 is that the metagame has stayed exactly the same since the hellbat nerfs and will never change until legacy, by then it will be too late.
Terran does the exact same thing in every TvP and TvZ ever outside the occasional 2 rax,
It's got to the point where I don't even watch SC2 unless a game has 90%+ recommended because it's the same shit I was watching 2 months ago with absolutely no change.
It needs to be fixed.
Quick call Blizzard! They need to hear this wisdom!
"Buff the hell out of units, nerf others."
I'm thinkin you have the silver bullet here man.
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United States23455 Posts
On October 02 2013 19:38 Kazeyonoma wrote:
=( choya is one of the best people ever, this sucks. hope FXO.KR finds a new sponsor asap.
If Idra sees this he will not be happy with you.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On October 03 2013 00:36 tadL wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2013 00:31 illidanx wrote:
adding LAN and making multiplayer free is the only way to attract more players to SC2. You mean to finally get a lot of cracked versions out is the only way to attract more players? Because without Bnet slavery there is no reason to buy the game, right?
Tbh, the only way to attract more players to SC2 is to make Blizzard forget about it's existence year after LotV is released and spread the LAN and stuff :D
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On October 02 2013 20:44 Figgy wrote:
Blizz really needs to get their shit together and start changing up the metagame every month or get some ridiculous maps like Kespa did right away and then completely stopped for some reason.
Buff the hell out of units, nerf others.
Balance? No one ACTUALLY gives a crap other than the players, the fans don't care one bit. What is killing SC2 is that the metagame has stayed exactly the same since the hellbat nerfs and will never change until legacy, by then it will be too late.
Terran does the exact same thing in every TvP and TvZ ever outside the occasional 2 rax,
It's got to the point where I don't even watch SC2 unless a game has 90%+ recommended because it's the same shit I was watching 2 months ago with absolutely no change.
It needs to be fixed.
The actual issue here is that blizzard tried so fucking hard to make bio viable (because for some fucked up reason they believe it produces better games) that mech and skyterran are niche options at best. Thats a fundamental issue in design, and sadly they are either unwilling to fix it or super slow about it. If at least mech was viable and a few combination of bio + factory, the game would be 100 times better. I actually enjoy watching zvp the most atm simply because there are sooo many options for each player, while as you said in tvp/tvz it's always the same.
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Well I liked the sponsor guy from FXO. Seems like he lost his passion though.
But nice he sponsored SCII for 2 years.
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Starcraft just isn't that entertaining to watch (due to the stagnant meta), unless you watch it once in a while. One of the main reasons (I think, well, at least for me) people still watch/follow the scene is because of the hype the players and teams get, not for the game itself. Personally I think that Blizzard should just give each race really imba units and then stop balancing. SC is on a decline right now anyways, might as well leave it be.
Edit: Hope FXO find another big sponsor soon.
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