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On September 25 2013 09:11 DomeGetta wrote:
You guys talking about Thorzain and Jinro aren't wrong in saying that they have, in their careers, at single tournaments competed at a high level.. What I was saying, however, is that no foreign Terran has ever been a consistent face at the highest level of play during any meta game ever - while members of both other races certainly have. This is because the race - independent of balance - is the most difficult to play well. One tournament run doesn't fit the criteria I'm talking about. I'm not talking about the foreigner scene or the Korean scene - I'm talking about the global scene. And if you want to talk about the Korean scene, just look at how DRG dealt with Innovation in the last round.. yes he was just eliminated by a Protoss/Zerg combo in ro16- but he did showcase how to deal with bio/mine textbook. We aren't even going to wait and see how this is replicated by even stronger players ?
The point again that I was intending to make - and my apologies for offending people - is that the game is balanced - so please stop messing with it for other reasons. It's frustrating for casual players (me - mid master NA) and I have to imagine it's infuriating for professional gamers - who make their living based on this game and who have to re-learn it every few months because we want to "freshen it up" for the viewers. It would be cool if they focused less on people who aren't even watching the game and more on people who play it and minimize the patching - unless statistically - over a long period of time (aka end of wol) one race is dominating the scene - which has not even come close to happening yet.
Foreigners are irrelevant to balance, since they don't represent top-notch skill and have lots of room for improvement.
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I want toss buffs, but not like this. These don't seem like the kinds of things to not buff early game and help late game. Lategame will tend to have less of an issue with resources, but early game will.
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dt change is way too excessive. A modest bump, like .1 seconds might okay, but oracle speed would be ridiculous.
i understand the reasoning, same speed as an overseer, but that might be way too powerful against terran.
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On September 25 2013 12:08 dutchfriese wrote:
dt change is way too excessive. A modest bump, like .1 seconds might okay, but oracle speed would be ridiculous.
i understand the reasoning, same speed as an overseer, but that might be way too powerful against terran.
.1 isn't modest. It's negligible.
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On September 25 2013 12:24 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2013 12:08 dutchfriese wrote:
dt change is way too excessive. A modest bump, like .1 seconds might okay, but oracle speed would be ridiculous.
i understand the reasoning, same speed as an overseer, but that might be way too powerful against terran. .1 isn't modest. It's negligible.
k then leave them alone. I was more thinking to 3.0 which would be almost .2, but the point is an over .5 speed buff is excessive.
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On September 24 2013 05:32 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:30 Falling wrote:Siege tank attack period decreased from 3 to 2.7
Bio play may be more interesting with the Widow Mine change and this buff. Not only that, we believe Terran mech armies can be a lot more viable because faster attack speed naturally means Siege Tanks will be better against their hard counters . Noooooooooooooo! The siege tank is losing its identity entirely. No upgrade, faster reload time. Next it will be faster set up time. Go big or go home was the siege tank. More damage, more overkill and slow down the rate of fire if anything.  Oh come on falling, its a faster game and the siege tank was the only one who didn't speed up. It can fire it alittle quicker and we will all be ok.
It's a tank, not an automatic shotgun.
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I think a nydus worm change that reduces the exit build time would be nice...although it would make the pure-nydus cheeses harder, the 200/200 cost still makes it pretty allin and intensive for what it is; but reducing the time would at least give it more hopes of constantly being able to use it throughout the 8-16 minute timeframe without making the nydus seem like a hail mary.
The widow mine change is kinda overwhelming. What I'd like is for zerglings to get owned by wms, but not banelings (at least not one-shot). As necessary as it is to have the burst damage, it's just painful to watch so much gas being wasted by one wm...it's a shame that banelings have less hp than zerglings
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I think mutas will have to be nerfed if the WM change goes through. I actually think TvZ is the most exciting is ever been... the only change I would suggest is make 3/3 for zerg tied to infestation pit.
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Long overdue with the tank buff. I still think they will be worthless in tvp though. Like always, I would like to see them adding a parameter to the siege tanks weapon: +25 damage to shields. As we all know, tanks suck vs protoss, this woukd really bring back tanks in the MU.
Looking att tank vs immortal:
current: 15 shots to kill
Proposed: 9 shots to kill
Widowmine and dt changes are too drastic, as for all other: seems like good changes to me.
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Love the roach burrow movement idea, that's really cool as roaches become shit after you hit like 160 supply and with this added mobility they will be somewhat useful at higher supplies.
Tank buff is pretty cool - would like to see what this attack speed buff would actually translate to
Edit: no idea what this would translate to won't even speculate
Mech upgrade buff seems kind of random I doubt this will do anything... at least its consistent w/ the armor so I'm in favor
DT speed would be stupid. Dts are already really fast I dont see why this buff is needed at all... its not like Dts are underused
Oracle buff is random, so I'm not in favor.
Widow mine splash is interesting... I believe its too much of a reduction in splash as now random flying mutas wont really get splashed even unmicroed. This does not promote more micro and is a stupid bandaid fix - yet again blizzard. WHAT THEY SHOULD REALLY DO TO MAKE THIS BETTER IS TO REDUCE THE WIDOW MINE PROJECTILE SPEED = MORE MICRO FROM ZERG
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On September 25 2013 13:38 Millet wrote:
Long overdue with the tank buff. I still think they will be worthless in tvp though. Like always, I would like to see them adding a parameter to the siege tanks weapon: +25 damage to shields. As we all know, tanks suck vs protoss, this woukd really bring back tanks in the MU.
Looking att tank vs immortal:
current: 15 shots to kill
Proposed: 9 shots to kill
Widowmine and dt changes are too drastic, as for all other: seems like good changes to me.
It wouldn't do any addtl dmg to Immortals due to hardened shields lol. But it would definitely make it more useful vs zealots/stalkers/colossi, especially if there was bonus dmg to the splash, although that might be OP.
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On September 25 2013 13:32 Livelovedie wrote:
I think mutas will have to be nerfed if the WM change goes through. I actually think TvZ is the most exciting is ever been... the only change I would suggest is make 3/3 for zerg tied to infestation pit.
Well, mines still one-shot mutas after the change and the radius (though severly diminished) is stil big enough so that multiple mines will kill a lot of mutas.
And Terran still has marines.
But yeah, a tiny mutalisk nerf would be nice regardless. Huge mutaflocks are very punishing.
On September 25 2013 13:42 fighter2_40 wrote:
Widow mine splash is interesting... I believe its too much of a reduction in splash as now random flying mutas wont really get splashed even unmicroed. This does not promote more micro and is a stupid bandaid fix - yet again blizzard. WHAT THEY SHOULD REALLY DO TO MAKE THIS BETTER IS TO REDUCE THE WIDOW MINE PROJECTILE SPEED = MORE MICRO FROM ZERG
Well, how fast does it move currently? 10? 15?
Like, to get the effect that you can split reactively against it like with banelings, it would have to go to a similar speed as banelings have. Which is just too low for a projectile as you could just run from it for a long time. Especially as it has friendly fire and you could draw it into enemies way too easily.
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DT change seems inappropriate to me. if they're going to make them faster it should maybe be less drastic, or tie it to an upgrade at the shrine, or something along those lines, but even then i'm not convinced this is necessary. even being this much faster i wonder if players will feel like allocating the apm to keep a handful of these alive all game when they can just make archons instead once they're found out.
most everything else i'm passively okay with. combined mech upgrades were pretty silly in beta and it was cut for a reason, but i've been out of the loop for a couple months so maybe the meta and level of play in general has moved on enough to absorb this change. roach change sounds interesting, maybe moving in a more onegoal-ish direction? oracle change doesn't sound bad but it's probably irrelevant - i can't imagine this unit having anything more than a marginal role as a scout in the late game until they redesign its abilities somehow. until then i think this unit is doomed to go the way of the reaper and make a cameo at one particular time in the game. siege tank and widow mine changes are wait-and-see for me.
i'm still blown away they've never removed the bio tag from the helbat.
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On September 25 2013 13:42 fighter2_40 wrote:
Love the roach burrow movement idea, that's really cool as roaches become shit after you hit like 160 supply and with this added mobility they will be somewhat useful at higher supplies.
Tank buff is pretty cool - would like to see what this attack speed buff would actually translate to
Edit: no idea what this would translate to won't even speculate
Mech upgrade buff seems kind of random I doubt this will do anything... at least its consistent w/ the armor so I'm in favor
DT speed would be stupid. Dts are already really fast I dont see why this buff is needed at all... its not like Dts are underused
Oracle buff is random, so I'm not in favor.
Widow mine splash is interesting... I believe its too much of a reduction in splash as now random flying mutas wont really get splashed even unmicroed. This does not promote more micro and is a stupid bandaid fix - yet again blizzard. WHAT THEY SHOULD REALLY DO TO MAKE THIS BETTER IS TO REDUCE THE WIDOW MINE PROJECTILE SPEED = MORE MICRO FROM ZERG
sounds good!... for me :p being zerg, this will make bw spider mine trick possible!
1~3 speedlings can kill bunch of enemy units. You sure you want that?
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On September 25 2013 14:28 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2013 13:32 Livelovedie wrote:
I think mutas will have to be nerfed if the WM change goes through. I actually think TvZ is the most exciting is ever been... the only change I would suggest is make 3/3 for zerg tied to infestation pit. Well, mines still one-shot mutas after the change and the radius (though severly diminished) is stil big enough so that multiple mines will kill a lot of mutas. And Terran still has marines. But yeah, a tiny mutalisk nerf would be nice regardless. Huge mutaflocks are very punishing.
Hmm...I dunno, don't you think you should be punished if you allow your opponent to bank enough gas (2k+) for a huge muta flock and then sink 40+ supply into production for half a minute?
Z has to either be ahead already or take a risk to get a big flock out...if z has a fatty flock of mutas and T hasn't got something in exchange then T should be in trouble.
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I don't mind the mech changes but if enemy DTs are twice as fast as my observers how am I supposed to catch them... Oracles cannot detect without energy which they should be using to raid worker lines. So it comes down to who can kill more probes, and generally 2-3 stalkers or the nexus cannon can push the oracle back, so the DT guy has the much higher chance to win. If DT speed buff is to be implemented then either make it a research ability or increase observers' speed to the amount of gravitic booster.
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Widow mine splash radius decreased from 1.75 to 1.1
Alternative: make widow mines visible when burrowed, without detection. i.e. you have to babysit them 100% of the time, and they will be less useful overall.
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On September 25 2013 15:43 zxcvalor wrote:Alternative: make widow mines visible when burrowed, without detection. i.e. you have to babysit them 100% of the time, and they will be less useful overall.
ummm that is even worse nerf. :o and actually you can kinda see them (depends on the map)
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On September 25 2013 11:57 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2013 09:11 DomeGetta wrote:
You guys talking about Thorzain and Jinro aren't wrong in saying that they have, in their careers, at single tournaments competed at a high level.. What I was saying, however, is that no foreign Terran has ever been a consistent face at the highest level of play during any meta game ever - while members of both other races certainly have. This is because the race - independent of balance - is the most difficult to play well. One tournament run doesn't fit the criteria I'm talking about. I'm not talking about the foreigner scene or the Korean scene - I'm talking about the global scene. And if you want to talk about the Korean scene, just look at how DRG dealt with Innovation in the last round.. yes he was just eliminated by a Protoss/Zerg combo in ro16- but he did showcase how to deal with bio/mine textbook. We aren't even going to wait and see how this is replicated by even stronger players ?
The point again that I was intending to make - and my apologies for offending people - is that the game is balanced - so please stop messing with it for other reasons. It's frustrating for casual players (me - mid master NA) and I have to imagine it's infuriating for professional gamers - who make their living based on this game and who have to re-learn it every few months because we want to "freshen it up" for the viewers. It would be cool if they focused less on people who aren't even watching the game and more on people who play it and minimize the patching - unless statistically - over a long period of time (aka end of wol) one race is dominating the scene - which has not even come close to happening yet.
Foreigners are irrelevant to balance, since they don't represent top-notch skill and have lots of room for improvement.
Korean pros are irrelevant to balance as well, because the game needs to be designed for casuals to have a massive player fanbase ... compared to only the viewer fanbase which a super technical "balanced and designed so only pros can be efficient at it" game will have. The game needs to be designed FOR FUN first and foremost and then you can make an esport out of it!
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On September 25 2013 15:38 JDI1 wrote:
I don't mind the mech changes but if enemy DTs are twice as fast as my observers how am I supposed to catch them... Oracles cannot detect without energy which they should be using to raid worker lines. So it comes down to who can kill more probes, and generally 2-3 stalkers or the nexus cannon can push the oracle back, so the DT guy has the much higher chance to win. If DT speed buff is to be implemented then either make it a research ability or increase observers' speed to the amount of gravitic booster.
relax relax. No one thinks that this mega speed buff will be directly implemented.
+ Show Spoiler +They should have the blink research!!
(as a seperate research from stalkers. and of course, this blink is not perfect as zeratuls, so they will be uncloaked for 1-2 seconds)
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EPT
