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Hmm, the scene is personality driven but obviously just bringing in personalities is not the solution.
I think the game just needs two things:
1) More interesting units.
-I'm not some BW>SC2 guy but I did grow up with this site and watching BW and have switched over full time to watching SC2 but yes SC2 could use some of the more interesting units that BW offered - reaver, defiler, lurker, etc. HotS did a solid job I think but if LotV only matches what HotS did I think it will not be enough. LotV will really need to revolutionize SC2, do drastic things like remove/modify certain staple units like the colossus.
2) Something for the casuals other than pushing them to do ladder
-Look I want people to play and learn the game and keep the ladder active but at the end of the day I would prefer them to just be logging on the game and playing anything they want because then at least they can see the in game news and be informed of the esports scene and possibly get interested enough to watch.
I know for me on BW I was maybe only spending 50% of my playtime on ladder/melee matches, the rest was on stuff like micro arena, BGH/fastest, UMS in general or sometimes just chatting! For whatever reason, I feel like SC2 still greatly struggles to do this and I know Blizzard is trying but work still needs to be done.
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SC2 has so much potential to go mainstream but blizzard just doesnt seem to care that much. HOTS is already a big step from WOL but interestingly some really obvious functionality is still missing. e.g. automatic joining of local chat channels/clan channels, difficulty in search for clans, groups, clan ladder system etc. I mean WC3 has these things since patch 1.01!!!
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I think the entire community feels that sc2 needs some kind of gameplay overhaul to jumpstart its waning interest but it doesn't seem like blizzard's design team has any plans other than to maintain sc2's matchup balance. We'll see what what they announce at blizzcon.
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I'd love to see the concrete data that backs up the claim of SC2 being in decline. The only thing I see that suggest this are the SC2 is dying threads that pop up every other week but we know how TL members love to whine. From my perspective, SC2 tournaments are getting so much better in terms of quality of games/skills, viewership is increasing. Even usually small regional tournaments like DH are getting more stacked than ever. We get to see Flash, Innovation, MMA, Taeja, sOs, Life, Jaedong in the DH Bucharest a few weeks ago ( and I never watch DH in 2012 because the quality is rather low ). And as far as the oversaturation of content concern, that's just your opinion man. If you think there is too much SC2 to watch, just don't watch it too much. For me, I'd rather have more SC2 than less.
Yes, there are glaring design issues with SC2 but Blizzard will most likely solve those when they make SC3. It's not practical to just redesign/rebalance the game at this stage. And you guys are wondering why Blizzard isn't doing any of your suggestions? Maybe the data that they are getting suggest that the game is actually successful at their expectation level hence no drastic changes are needed ? Why are we keep throwing suggestions at Blizzard when we aren't even sure that Blizzard is needing them?
And why the long post where most of your suggested solutions can be shorten to "let's copy everything from MOBA".
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"I'd love to see the concrete data that backs up the claim of SC2 being in decline. The only thing I see that suggest this are the SC2 is dying threads that pop up every other week but we know how TL members love to whine "
allow me to help you:
1.Declining number of viewers.
10k for wcs na and 20k for wcs eu constantyl plus not being able to break the 100k expect for during the finals of wcs is preety bad(for the expectations of sc2 at least).
2.Dying foreign scene with no new players joining
wcs na is 100% korea,eu going in that direction.foreignfans aren't watching.no new pros entering the scene and those that do can not make it past the early stages
3.Proplayers salaries being cut and a lot of former pros leaving.I will just give you this interview from flash here on tl:
"
Q: Your old competitors have retired one by one. How do you feel?
Flash: I knew long ago that the older brothers (meaning: the older players) will retire. We sometimes have some drinks, so I know beforehand. I feel very pity. They are supposed to be the hardworking players. However, because of the falling size of the fans and SC2’s current situation, they can’t hang on anymore.
Progamer is a tough profession. The older brothers practiced 12 hours a day. This life is tiring and dull. Everyone is wondering how will things turn out after playing for one more year. And many people in the starcraft scene are constantly saying that the current situation is grim. I have no idea why they emphasize on this sentence constantly.
Players are the ones who know the scene the most, right? When people around you are talking about the negativity all the time, players will feel ashamed. Who doesn’t know that SC2 is facing difficulties? But even so, telling negativity to the hardworking players will only increase their hardship. There are no players who don’t know about the deteriorating situation, but keeping listening to these will certainly make players exhausted and powerless.
Q: Is SC2’s fall regretful to those very active players?
Flash: Certainly you can’t see the future of next year and the years after that. This is the reality. Based on the standpoint of KeSPA, they can develop other programs. But in the standpoint of players, they will think “I have already achieved this kind of results but my salary will still be cut next year.” So some players do not want to work under KeSPA anymore. Innovation’s transfer is certainly not unrelated to this reason. In foreign teams, you can play for tournaments freely.
"
and there is also foreign players who say the same thing
" Yes, there are glaring design issues with SC2 but Blizzard will most likely solve those when they make SC3 "
yeah man in 12 years from now.sc2 proscene is barely making the year and you want to wait 12 years )))))).If I would have red that sentence before replying I would have never replied to you.gg.you trolled me.
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On September 22 2013 12:39 Footler wrote:
Hmm, the scene is personality driven but obviously just bringing in personalities is not the solution.
I think the game just needs two things:
1) More interesting units.
-I'm not some BW>SC2 guy but I did grow up with this site and watching BW and have switched over full time to watching SC2 but yes SC2 could use some of the more interesting units that BW offered - reaver, defiler, lurker, etc. HotS did a solid job I think but if LotV only matches what HotS did I think it will not be enough. LotV will really need to revolutionize SC2, do drastic things like remove/modify certain staple units like the colossus.
2) Something for the casuals other than pushing them to do ladder
-Look I want people to play and learn the game and keep the ladder active but at the end of the day I would prefer them to just be logging on the game and playing anything they want because then at least they can see the in game news and be informed of the esports scene and possibly get interested enough to watch.
I know for me on BW I was maybe only spending 50% of my playtime on ladder/melee matches, the rest was on stuff like micro arena, BGH/fastest, UMS in general or sometimes just chatting! For whatever reason, I feel like SC2 still greatly struggles to do this and I know Blizzard is trying but work still needs to be done.
How do you intend to solve the "critical numbers problem" with your more interesting units?
How are casuals going to have fun if the game is easily decided in favor of the first one to switch from building up economy to building an army? There simply isnt a defenders advantage like in BW because superior numbers are far too easily used and automatically maximize the army dps due to the unit density being maximized.
You seem to be like someone who knows BW, but you also sound afraid of actually looking for problems in SC2 by comparing it to BW. That is sad, but it needs to be done to find the flaws of the new game.
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I personally think the biggest problem with SC2 by far is all the negativity in the community. I still really enjoy this game and the tournaments, and will continue to do so for a long time.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 22 2013 19:45 Rabiator wrote:
How are casuals going to have fun if the game is easily decided in favor of the first one to switch from building up economy to building an army? There simply isnt a defenders advantage like in BW because superior numbers are far too easily used and automatically maximize the army dps due to the unit density being maximized.
The same way casuals had fun in BW, with all the difficulties BW had: by not playing 1v1 ladder ^_^. See, for good 60% (or more) of people who played BW all that BS in form of defender's advantage, pathing, whatever DID NOT freaking matter, since they spent utter most of their time either playing UMS, either doing some stupid stuff on BGH. Also, unit density being maximized and dps being maximized are completely different things.
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On September 22 2013 20:26 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 19:45 Rabiator wrote:
How are casuals going to have fun if the game is easily decided in favor of the first one to switch from building up economy to building an army? There simply isnt a defenders advantage like in BW because superior numbers are far too easily used and automatically maximize the army dps due to the unit density being maximized.
The same way casuals had fun in BW, with all the difficulties BW had: by not playing 1v1 ladder ^_^. See, for good 60% (or more) of people who played BW all that BS in form of defender's advantage, pathing, whatever DID NOT freaking matter, since they spent utter most of their time either playing UMS, either doing some stupid stuff on BGH. Also, unit density being maximized and dps being maximized are completely different things.
Except that the UMS system in Starcraft 2 was a disaster, and the standard way of playing 3v3/4v4 doesn't allow maps like BGH and instead forces you to use Blizzard maps. I'd also say that the way the game is designed doesn't make for extremely fun 3v3/4v4 games.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 22 2013 20:42 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 20:26 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 22 2013 19:45 Rabiator wrote:
How are casuals going to have fun if the game is easily decided in favor of the first one to switch from building up economy to building an army? There simply isnt a defenders advantage like in BW because superior numbers are far too easily used and automatically maximize the army dps due to the unit density being maximized.
The same way casuals had fun in BW, with all the difficulties BW had: by not playing 1v1 ladder ^_^. See, for good 60% (or more) of people who played BW all that BS in form of defender's advantage, pathing, whatever DID NOT freaking matter, since they spent utter most of their time either playing UMS, either doing some stupid stuff on BGH. Also, unit density being maximized and dps being maximized are completely different things. Except that the UMS system in Starcraft 2 was a disaster, and the standard way of playing 3v3/4v4 doesn't allow maps like BGH and instead forces you to use Blizzard maps. I'd also say that the way the game is designed doesn't make for extremely fun 3v3/4v4 games.
I did not say those aspects were fine, i just stated that whatever is on Rabiator's mind is completely irrelevant for casual players, unless you are sOs. Also, that custom game menu is not yet removed, is it :S?
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On September 22 2013 20:26 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 19:45 Rabiator wrote:
How are casuals going to have fun if the game is easily decided in favor of the first one to switch from building up economy to building an army? There simply isnt a defenders advantage like in BW because superior numbers are far too easily used and automatically maximize the army dps due to the unit density being maximized.
The same way casuals had fun in BW, with all the difficulties BW had: by not playing 1v1 ladder ^_^. See, for good 60% (or more) of people who played BW all that BS in form of defender's advantage, pathing, whatever DID NOT freaking matter, since they spent utter most of their time either playing UMS, either doing some stupid stuff on BGH. Also, unit density being maximized and dps being maximized are completely different things.
Casuals had fun on maps like BGH, but with the easily acquired massive armies in SC2 that map is never going to be fun, because it is far too easy for one team to win agains one other player. That wasnt as easy in BW and it is a problem that needs to be solved before the game can be fun for casuals. SC2 is favoring the aggressor far too much and that is the problem.
Units can only become more interesting with more extreme abilities. That has the inherent problem of making them easily overpowered due to the "unit concentration" problem in SC2. BW didnt have that problem due to its "limitations" in unit selection, pathing and lower economy. Those limitations were GOOD and NECESSARY to balance the game, but SC2 removed all of them.
Just think what the Arbiter with all its abilities would do to SC2 ... mass-Stasis Field? That would be worse than mass Fungal ... and yet the ability/unit was acceptable in BW. Why? Because each of them was a huge investment and there wasnt much point in building more of them than absolutely necessary. This is "proving" that BW allows for more extreme (= more fun) units with more radical abilities. The Siege Tank and several other things had to be nerfed to stop them from being overpowered in SC2 after all ...
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On September 22 2013 11:34 Chylo wrote: The fact of the matter is there is only one reason the game isn't interesting to watch on a pro level and that's because it's entirely dominated by Koreans. No one wants to watch koreans competing in US/EU, sorry.
You completely wrong. The fact is game is boring to watch even when skilled players play. So you almost never amazed with Jaedong macro, Flash decisions, Stork solid play, etc. Of course there's nothing left for you, but root for player nationality instead of their play style.
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I absolutly agree with bartus 88. The biggest issue in sc2 is this negativ, whining commuinty. I cant understand what people hope to achieve when they say "Starcraft is dying". I personally enjoy to play this game, watch highlevel korean pros and tournaments. I give nothing about people trying to get this game down.
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On September 22 2013 21:28 goodCat14 wrote:
I absolutly agree with bartus 88. The biggest issue in sc2 is this negativ, whining commuinty. I cant understand what people hope to achieve when they say "Starcraft is dying". I personally enjoy to play this game, watch highlevel korean pros and tournaments. I give nothing about people trying to get this game down.
The biggest problem is people who are unwilling to think by themselves and accept the criticism which is proven to them again and again. The game does have problems ... just accept it and look for ways to solve them.
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Why there are a "balance thread" and not a "What's the problem/SC is dying thread" as well?
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On September 22 2013 21:28 goodCat14 wrote:
I absolutly agree with bartus 88. The biggest issue in sc2 is this negativ, whining commuinty. I cant understand what people hope to achieve when they say "Starcraft is dying". I personally enjoy to play this game, watch highlevel korean pros and tournaments. I give nothing about people trying to get this game down.
Maybe because there are 1000 things blizzard could do better even if you disregard gameplay mechanics and balancing, and the only updates we get from blizzard is a small patch every 3 months. Blizzards competitors are constantly giving updates on their game and rolling out patches to improve user experience, and the concerns about starcraft dying are not totally unwarranted it's very clear there has been a decent amount of decline. Blizzard seems to just want to carry on this way for the next 2 years until LoTV which is fucking scary for anyone that likes starcraft.
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New and more cool units. Blizzard is very slow with that. Seems like in Dota2, with the 100 plus units, every month you got changes because the buff of low use units. Is not so easy with SC2, because the balance is more critical. But I feel that months after HoW release the games again go to the same foreseeable structure like in WoL.
I dont think that Blizzard can make a big overhaul for LoV. Maybe is time for the community start to build your own new game.
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On September 22 2013 21:41 MattD wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 21:28 goodCat14 wrote:
I absolutly agree with bartus 88. The biggest issue in sc2 is this negativ, whining commuinty. I cant understand what people hope to achieve when they say "Starcraft is dying". I personally enjoy to play this game, watch highlevel korean pros and tournaments. I give nothing about people trying to get this game down. Maybe because there are 1000 things blizzard could do better even if you disregard gameplay mechanics and balancing, and the only updates we get from blizzard is a small patch every 3 months. Blizzards competitors are constantly giving updates on their game and rolling out patches to improve user experience, and the concerns about starcraft dying are not totally unwarranted it's very clear there has been a decent amount of decline. Blizzard seems to just want to carry on this way for the next 2 years until LoTV which is fucking scary for anyone that likes starcraft.
Blizzard patches pretty fast = STOP BLIZZARD YOU ARE PATCHING TOO FAST, LET THE METAGAME EVOLVE!
Blizzard takes their time to let the metagame evolve = ZOMG BLIZZ, WHY U NO PATCH?
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 22 2013 22:00 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 21:41 MattD wrote:On September 22 2013 21:28 goodCat14 wrote:
I absolutly agree with bartus 88. The biggest issue in sc2 is this negativ, whining commuinty. I cant understand what people hope to achieve when they say "Starcraft is dying". I personally enjoy to play this game, watch highlevel korean pros and tournaments. I give nothing about people trying to get this game down. Maybe because there are 1000 things blizzard could do better even if you disregard gameplay mechanics and balancing, and the only updates we get from blizzard is a small patch every 3 months. Blizzards competitors are constantly giving updates on their game and rolling out patches to improve user experience, and the concerns about starcraft dying are not totally unwarranted it's very clear there has been a decent amount of decline. Blizzard seems to just want to carry on this way for the next 2 years until LoTV which is fucking scary for anyone that likes starcraft. Blizzard patches pretty fast = STOP BLIZZARD YOU ARE PATCHING TOO FAST, LET THE METAGAME EVOLVE! Blizzard takes their time to let the metagame evolve = ZOMG BLIZZ, WHY U NO PATCH?
Pretty much common reaction of everyone on a patch.
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On September 22 2013 21:41 Spectreman wrote:
New and more cool units. Blizzard is very slow with that. Seems like in Dota2, with the 100 plus units, every month you got changes because the buff of low use units. Is not so easy with SC2, because the balance is more critical. But I feel that months after HoW release the games again go to the same foreseeable structure like in WoL.
I dont think that Blizzard can make a big overhaul for LoV. Maybe is time for the community start to build your own new game.
Oh please let me watch that, i would laugh my ass off at a community build game since it would be a trainwreck beyond belief.
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EPT
