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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40186 Posts
On September 22 2013 07:00 Xiphos wrote: Because it WAS big and NOW it is dwindling. This thread is to analysis the reason for its diminishing status. WHAT was big in the first place? BW in Korea? Now there is LoL also, rumored anti-promotion from KeSPA in 2010 helped too :3. BW outside of Korea was never REALLY big, casually between BW and WC3? Likely. After? No way. | ||
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SpeghettiJoe
21 Posts
On September 22 2013 07:29 SpeghettiJoe wrote: I think a very simple way to make SC2 more exciting to watch is: Make more high mobility units! What made WoL boring to watch? - Brood lords every game, slowly eating away the enemy's base like a bacteria. zzzzz - Or TvT - tanks, tanks, tanks, sieged up, gridlocked. zzzz. Finally, after 15 min, a catch of tanks out of position, game over. - Not to mention ALL of terran's tier 3 units are slow as hell Changes: 1. Make terran tier 3 units FAST. FAST = more interesting and more frequent fights. 2. Make other units faster too! Fast = awesome. LoL is exciting to play and watch because shit is fast! Flashes, dashes, gap closers, etc etc. 3. Take away the slower units and make them FAST instead! SC2 has too many slow freakin units/mechanics, encouraging gridlocks, posturing (just moving deathballs around without fighting), and turtling. I like this guy, he may be a troll, but i like his cute attempts at it. Wtf, I'm not trolling, I'm serious. Faster is better, more fun. Those slow Terran tier 3 units are like watching two grandmas fighting while drunk. They might be really strong (the strong grandma strength), but it's so boring. Zerglings, reapers, mutas, helions, all good. Good Blizzard! But thors, BCs, 2 movement speed, god Blizzard wtf. | ||
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Holy_AT
Austria978 Posts
On September 22 2013 07:12 romanianthunder wrote: Well if we refer strictly to the proscene the answers are very simple but they disturb a lot of people(especially the ones on this forum and the former bw elitists) but since I do not care about them i am going to lay them down simply: 1.antiquated competitional sistem 2.monocountry dominance 3.too much competition form rival esports 1.Antiquatee competitional system Compared to lol,dota2 and cod sc2 has a very old competitonal system that provides very low enterttainment value.The idea that everyone form around the world plays in online only qualfiers is simply very unappealing to the lol studio play and the valve western region/eastern region diviison.Yes,despiite the fact that in sc2 you are accused of racism if you want to see people form your own continent play(i have seen that form mods here on teamliquid) modern esports tend to go the way of traditional global sports such as football or baseball.The system goes like this:each country has 1 or two representatives and at the end of the year the top 1 or two representatives form one country get to meet in the global competition.This works well for football,basebvall etc.One thing to note is that in this system despite the fact that certain countries have far greater developed internal scenes than other countries they still send only two representatives to the global finals.Why is that?Well because people much smarter than us relalized that they need many couuntries for a thriving sport and in order to do that each country must be represented and given a chance so that the sport does not shrink to be playable in only one country.THis si why for example in the football world cup brazil has only one national team althought hey could probably send 5.The reason for this is simple:more acountries and more people equals more sponrs and more money and more fans.And this steamrolls on to the next generations.Major esports such as dota2 and lol have realised the same thing and have introduced something that the sc2 scene frowns appon and considers racist:REGIONLOCKING.Yes despite the fact many people admire dota2 and lol proscene succes they do not want to apply the same stuff in sc2(and watch the repliestot this post because I can gurantee you there will be users who will either accuse me of racism or give me stupid arguments which I will debunk further). 2.Monocountry dominance Well this is selfexplanatory.Sc2 right now is virtually 99% korean,There is no active foreigner achieving anything in korea right now.in wcs na there is no foreigner past the quarters and wcs eu is only saved by lag but even there in the last wcs there was no foreigner in the finals and each passing year the chances are the situaiton is the same.As a direct effect people from ourtside korea have started to not care about sc2 since none of their representatives are in there.Mainstream audiences(aka the hundreds of thousands as people that an esport needs to make views and attract sponsors) are not attracted to arthuro vs another unknown korean.They do not want to see that since it provides 0 entertainment and quality.Hence they do not watch it and you het 10k viewers for wcs na while lol constantly gets 200k.It is sad and it is reality.And the viewership goes down every year simply because there are more koreans every year. This in turn results in:less sponsors and a decliing proscene where players have lots of issues(check out huks conversation with thorzain on reddit).And form a capitalistic point of view it is perfectly normal.Sponsors need viwers to buy their products.sc2 simply does not provide the viewers and most foreign sponsors are not interested in the south korean market.Btw let me asl you this have you seen any major spnsor in sc2 recently?The answer is no.Have you seen in lol?Lol is now sponsored by american express and a lol team(curse) is sponsored by nissan.Sc2 is still sponsored only by razor.What is the dirrect effect? 1.foreogners leaving the scene or not joining in the first place 2.teams dropping sc2 since no sponsor pays for it. And for those who rely on the wcs i have a warning:WE ARE NOT ENTITLED TO A WCS>Blizzard tried to make wcs happend but with the low viewership it brings i doubt they will continue the same fiancial investment. The only people who actually appreciate the current sustem have really dumb arguments like:"DOnt you want to see the highest level of play????Are you a racist???Why do not you like koreans do you want to see only white people??"" This argument is the dumbest one of all.First of all the highest level of play isnt in wcs na or wcs eu.It is in wcs kr and if you wanna see the highest level of play go watch wcs kr.What we are seeing now in wcs na and eu are over the top koreans or the ones bad enough that they can not make it in korea and they ran to foreign countries.And that has no entertainment value.Their levle of play is good but not entertaining enough for me to watch it.And I do not and most of the people do not.And the only people who watc it do not justify the 1.6 million dollar tournamnet that is the wcs.No I am not a racist and no I do not hate koreans.It is jut that i wanna see europeans play in europe,north americans play in na and koreans in korea. 3.Competition from other esports. BW in its hay day never had competitoon form other espots in korea(major competition at least) and in europe and na it was nonexistentDespite popular belief that bw was the apex of esports and it was the first and only esport of its day that is mostly a lie propagated by bw elitists.Bw was a korean only esport.Nothing more nothing else.When bw was played in korea europe was 100% cs1.6 and later it switched to wc3 and dota1,wc3 being also the game that delivered some of sc2's best players like stephano,grubby,naniwa etc.Bw was inexistent as an esport in europe back them.I remember all the pc bangs in romania having wc3 and dota1.None had bw and in othe rcountrie it was the same.In na the situation was simmilar.Back when bw was good in korea in na a game known as halo2 was the major esport and a player like walshy was making the first 1 million dollars from esports and buying a house from esports money.Also he appeared on mtv and espn.Yes a halo2 player was and probably stil is the highest earning esports player of all time(sorry flash). Nowadays new esports such as dota and lol realised that to be succesfull they have to appeal both to the foreign scene and to asians scenes and give everybody an equal chance(see my arguments above).Also they realised that in order to be succesfull they have to provide cool features like ingame cameras,community involvement stuff like skins etc.sc2 does not provide anything simmilar hence all the viewers are going to the competition. Ok i wrote too much for tonight but please if you reply to this post do not do it with dumb argumets such as the highest level of play one or with playing the race card.Also i know i made typos but most of you guys are native speakers and you get the general idea I think this is a well written analysis and I wholeheartedly agree with it. BW was generally non existent as an esports in europe. I mean all the people into games at the time played SC I and BW singleplayer, but no one really dabbled into multiplayer. On the lans and everywhere counter strike was being played and warcraft 3 when it was out. The foreign brood war scene was a hard loyal sworn in core of players. BW was the phenomenon of Korea, for the rest of the world it was a fun single player or maybe lan with friends experience. I bet most people didn't even know that it was big in Korea before SC 2 got out and they began to inform themselves about the predecessors of SC 2 and stumbled over TeamLiquids Webpage. Some one asked more ore less why cant the game be elitist, treasured by a selected few ? My answer is that when there is little interest in the game, there will be less tournaments and there will be less price money, less sponsored teams and less sponsors at all. The quality of games will diminish therefore and that's bad for the fan of the game. So I think it is crucial for a competitive game in esports to have a fairly large casual fanbase. These fans watch the streams, these fans consume the adds, these fans peak the interest of sponsors to poor money into tournaments and onto players. Therefore I think elitism is 100% the wrong way. Just look at day9 and how he approaches this: He tries to help people, teach people, get people interested in the game. He encourages casuals to play the game. This is good, this is wonderful and I hate to see that there are so many players that just have such a poisonous attitude towards casual players. For them they are a pest that they should better get rid of. They should not have an opinion because they are noobs and everything they say is pure bullshit. I mean just look at day9s approach, he has often been asked about game balance and what not, but did he ever really stomped someone in the ground because they said a unit was overpowered or needed to be nerved? No, when he was of a different opinion, he explained it and stood by it without being an asshole and I would like to see more of that from the community. Day9 is someone well liked and loved but too few people aspire to be more like him and bring passion and friendliness into the game and to the casuals. I mean being an elitist may make you feel good about yourself and special, but it will hurt the game you love and esports in the end I think. | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40186 Posts
On September 22 2013 08:27 SpeghettiJoe wrote: Wtf, I'm not trolling, I'm serious. Faster is better, more fun. Those slow Terran tier 3 units are like watching two grandmas fighting while drunk. They might be really strong (the strong grandma strength), but it's so boring. Zerglings, reapers, mutas, helions, all good. Good Blizzard! But thors, BCs, 2 movement speed, god Blizzard wtf. Fast moving thor is overpowered marauder with anti-air, who would ever like this? | ||
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SpeghettiJoe
21 Posts
Wtf, I'm not trolling, I'm serious. Faster is better, more fun. Those slow Terran tier 3 units are like watching two grandmas fighting while drunk. They might be really strong (the strong grandma strength), but it's so boring. Zerglings, reapers, mutas, helions, all good. Good Blizzard! But thors, BCs, 2 movement speed, god Blizzard wtf. Fast moving thor is overpowered marauder with anti-air, who would ever like this? Fine, take away some of their HP or damage, but make them FASTER. Would you rather watch 2 Bruce Lees fight, or 2 Bob Sapps??? | ||
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QzYSc2
Netherlands281 Posts
im watching 10 minutes of people making scvs and supply depots, then an battle of actual 30 secs happens, and say he loses 20 workers, most of the time u know the game is over, but still drags out longer. so you get a 20 mins game which actually already ended in 12 mins. and then you have a 5 min commercial and then another 10 min break or whatever, i can't even imagine going to a live event sitting 5 hours in my chair doing nothing but wait for the next matches to come. idk about you guys, but watching a batrider stack jungle camps in dota 2 is even more interesting. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On September 22 2013 07:43 lolfail9001 wrote: WHAT was big in the first place? BW in Korea? Now there is LoL also, rumored anti-promotion from KeSPA in 2010 helped too :3. BW outside of Korea was never REALLY big, casually between BW and WC3? Likely. After? No way. Not really disputing any of my points. SC2 was a great esport in 2011 due to BW hype and now its crashing down. | ||
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Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
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RaZorwire
Sweden718 Posts
On September 22 2013 08:59 Xiphos wrote: Not really disputing any of my points. SC2 was a great esport in 2011 due to BW hype and now its crashing down. BW hype holding the game up for almost 2 years after release? Not likely, especially since the foreign community for SC2 became so much bigger than it ever had been for BW. The forign BW fans are not enough to account for how big the foreign scene for SC2 grew. | ||
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unigolyn
Estonia1272 Posts
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On September 22 2013 10:16 RaZorwire wrote: BW hype holding the game up for almost 2 years after release? Not likely, especially since the foreign community for SC2 became so much bigger than it ever had been for BW. The forign BW fans are not enough to account for how big the foreign scene for SC2 grew. BW hype also contains the fact that BW player's switch. | ||
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vesicular
United States1310 Posts
On September 22 2013 05:20 Xiphos wrote: One thing for sure is that SC:BW would have lasted longer in Korea (and yes that's all I care about) have Kespa not switched to SC2 as players shown many disdains toward the sequel and the dearth of audience. With the lack of popularity of SC2 and BW being shafted by the organization, Airforce folded their position in esport and truly hampered the progression of it and killed people's chance in continuing their path as a gamer (in the military). BW was on the decline before SC2 came out and before Kespa switched to SC2. Yes it was still much larger than SC2 even towards the end but to say anything else is rewriting history. Read some interviews from several years ago, players are asked about it and respond (iloveoov's interview before he went to the military is a good example). In many ways it doesn't sound much different than what people talk about now, except the end of BW was still much more popular in Korea than SC2 is right now. | ||
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unigolyn
Estonia1272 Posts
On September 22 2013 08:55 SpeghettiJoe wrote: Fine, take away some of their HP or damage, but make them FASTER. Would you rather watch 2 Bruce Lees fight, or 2 Bob Sapps??? The Warhound was removed in Beta for good reason. Mech is not supposed to be mobile. Mech isn't working in TvZ because of Vipers. I don't presume to be competent at balancing, but it seems like Blinding Cloud shouldn't work on mechanical units, Abduct seems sufficient to break siege lines. | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
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munchmunch
Canada789 Posts
Instead, what do we get? Fucking experience points that make no fucking sense for an RTS! And the experience system actively detracts from the game because I can't click on a useful screen while the useless level-up animation is playing. | ||
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Chylo
United States220 Posts
The fact of the matter is there is only one reason the game isn't interesting to watch on a pro level and that's because it's entirely dominated by Koreans. No one wants to watch koreans competing in US/EU, sorry. SC2 was built on the incredibly interesting players from the US and EU. Watching Artosis try to quality for GSL, watching Idra compete, the viewers for these things were ridiculous. The HDH beta tournament was insane in terms of interest because there were personalities we could identify with. I don't think teams are the answer for SC2. Starcraft has ALWAYS been based on personalities, whether it's Boxer, Jaedong, Flash, Idra or anyone else. That's what draws people in. Once you eliminate the foreigners' interest in the game it's over. Personally I think seeing Idra and many others quit was the death blow. Also, interest would have died off MUCH earlier if we didn't have the miracle player that was Stephano. Now THAT is personality. Stephano delayed the big decline for a year at least. It made us all think that foreigners could actually compete with Koreans. I want to watch Idra not shake that one protoss dude's hand. I don't want to watch some Korean through a translator say "I wasn't so confident at the start, but after winning a battle I thought I could win" YAWN | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
On September 22 2013 11:34 Chylo wrote: You can talk endlessly about silly little reasons like battle.net isn't good enough for casuals / for social interaction, you can talk about skins in lol, sc2's gameplay etc. The fact of the matter is there is only one reason the game isn't interesting to watch on a pro level and that's because it's entirely dominated by Koreans. No one wants to watch koreans competing in US/EU, sorry. SC2 was built on the incredibly interesting players from the US and EU. Watching Artosis try to quality for GSL, watching Idra compete, the viewers for these things were ridiculous. The HDH beta tournament was insane in terms of interest because there were personalities we could identify with. I don't think teams are the answer for SC2. Starcraft has ALWAYS been based on personalities, whether it's Boxer, Jaedong, Flash, Idra or anyone else. That's what draws people in. Once you eliminate the foreigners' interest in the game it's over. Personally I think seeing Idra and many others quit was the death blow. Also, interest would have died off MUCH earlier if we didn't have the miracle player that was Stephano. Now THAT is personality. Stephano delayed the big decline for a year at least. It made us all think that foreigners could actually compete with Koreans. I want to watch Idra not shake that one protoss dude's hand. I don't want to watch some Korean through a translator say "I wasn't so confident at the start, but after winning a battle I thought I could win" YAWN It was so popular at first because it was a fresh new game and built upon the success of Starcraft, widely considered the best RTS game of all time. If it's only because of the lack of foreigners being able to compete, then why is Starcraft 2 so unpopular in Korea, when Brood War was so big? Of course it'd be more popular if more foreigners were able to compete with Koreans, but saying that it's the sole reason is ridiculous. | ||
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Kergy
Peru2011 Posts
Will you tell your kids about how 'cool' the colossus and roaches were? | ||
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Tchado
Jordan1831 Posts
On September 21 2013 04:43 dsousa wrote: I'll mention one thing that bothered me about SC2's growth path. When SC2 was HOT HOT HOT in 2011 and Reddit and TL were taking off with more and more people coming to them for SC2 we had some overeager mods from both sites that, I think, really stymied the scene. Reddit mods went nuts and decided to try changing things so much, removing images, removing fluff and the scene really lost a lot of its fun and childish allure. /r/starcraft used to be funny and quirky and interesting and mods neutered it in an attempt to "bring quality content". They tried to turn reddit into TL and left us with nothing that was pure fun and silly. TL was less of a buzzkill, but still it was. I remember fans having a blast in some LR threads making images that were hilarious and in real time relevant to the content of the tournement we were watching. Then mods decided we'd had enough fun and banned them. I don't think it is the biggest reason for SC2's downfall, but it was a factor. When SC2 was up and coming and growing fast, the community site mods tried to grab their piece of the power and ruined the fun. For me at least, that was a big deal, especially reddit because I think a strong sub-reddit would have done more than anything to bring new people and new ideas into the scene. Whoever those reddit mods were.... fuck you.... you ruined a good thing. I think this issue might be minor but it is correct , I remember watching more starcraft , playing more starcraft , visiting TL alot more back when the "unimpressed flash meme" thread was out there , its closed now but for those who didnt see it search for it , that thread was the best thing on TL , it was funny, community based opinions and comedy , and it was relevant to whatever events was going on at the time , sure it derailed a few times , but that happens with that kind of threads. Then the mods has a "discussion" and closed it down , their website , their decisions I guess , cant complain about that..... just saying that closing down that kind of thread was a real bummer. | ||
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painkilla
United States695 Posts
And can we stop with the region locking BS already? I'd be fine with region lock if WCS is like it was in 2012, and we still had 5 GSLs per year with big prize pool. With WCS now being 90% of broadcasted SC2, it has to be highest level possible. | ||
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