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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 22 2013 05:11 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 05:08 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 22 2013 05:06 Xiphos wrote:On September 22 2013 04:58 HornyHerring wrote:
You people have absolutely no imagination if you think that HD version of Brood War would be a long term success. If SD version of BW can do it, why not an HD one? *chuckles* SD version of BW is still played by majority of gamers? Isn't it still successful? SC2 still played by majority of gamers? We can go on and on.
Define success. Granted BW was successful.
SC2 is not either, i was not denying that. In fact, majority of gamers nowadays are covered with casuality (myself included).
+ Show Spoiler +And yes, we can go on and on, after all i still have no gotten icon of zergling, so i wonder if i even have 100 posts.
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On September 22 2013 05:13 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 05:11 Xiphos wrote:On September 22 2013 05:08 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 22 2013 05:06 Xiphos wrote:On September 22 2013 04:58 HornyHerring wrote:
You people have absolutely no imagination if you think that HD version of Brood War would be a long term success. If SD version of BW can do it, why not an HD one? *chuckles* SD version of BW is still played by majority of gamers? Isn't it still successful? SC2 still played by majority of gamers? We can go on and on. Define success. Granted BW was successful. SC2 is not either, i was not denying that. In fact, majority of gamers nowadays are covered with casuality (myself included). + Show Spoiler +And yes, we can go on and on, after all i still have no gotten icon of zergling, so i wonder if i even have 100 posts.
One thing for sure is that SC:BW would have lasted longer in Korea (and yes that's all I care about) have Kespa not switched to SC2 as players shown many disdains toward the sequel and the dearth of audience. With the lack of popularity of SC2 and BW being shafted by the organization, Airforce folded their position in esport and truly hampered the progression of it and killed people's chance in continuing their path as a gamer (in the military).
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 22 2013 05:20 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 05:13 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 22 2013 05:11 Xiphos wrote:On September 22 2013 05:08 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 22 2013 05:06 Xiphos wrote:On September 22 2013 04:58 HornyHerring wrote:
You people have absolutely no imagination if you think that HD version of Brood War would be a long term success. If SD version of BW can do it, why not an HD one? *chuckles* SD version of BW is still played by majority of gamers? Isn't it still successful? SC2 still played by majority of gamers? We can go on and on. Define success. Granted BW was successful. SC2 is not either, i was not denying that. In fact, majority of gamers nowadays are covered with casuality (myself included). + Show Spoiler +And yes, we can go on and on, after all i still have no gotten icon of zergling, so i wonder if i even have 100 posts. One thing for sure is that SC:BW would have lasted longer in Korea (and yes that's all I care about) have Kespa not switched to SC2 as players shown many disdains toward the sequel and the dearth of audience. With the lack of popularity of SC2 and BW being shafted by the organization, Airforce folded their position in esport and truly hampered the progression of it and killed people's chance in continuing their path as a gamer (in the military).
Yeah, SC:BW would last around 6 months longer with LoL on the door. Airforce would probably switch to LoL too then :D
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On September 22 2013 05:21 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 05:20 Xiphos wrote:On September 22 2013 05:13 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 22 2013 05:11 Xiphos wrote:On September 22 2013 05:08 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 22 2013 05:06 Xiphos wrote:On September 22 2013 04:58 HornyHerring wrote:
You people have absolutely no imagination if you think that HD version of Brood War would be a long term success. If SD version of BW can do it, why not an HD one? *chuckles* SD version of BW is still played by majority of gamers? Isn't it still successful? SC2 still played by majority of gamers? We can go on and on. Define success. Granted BW was successful. SC2 is not either, i was not denying that. In fact, majority of gamers nowadays are covered with casuality (myself included). + Show Spoiler +And yes, we can go on and on, after all i still have no gotten icon of zergling, so i wonder if i even have 100 posts. One thing for sure is that SC:BW would have lasted longer in Korea (and yes that's all I care about) have Kespa not switched to SC2 as players shown many disdains toward the sequel and the dearth of audience. With the lack of popularity of SC2 and BW being shafted by the organization, Airforce folded their position in esport and truly hampered the progression of it and killed people's chance in continuing their path as a gamer (in the military). Yeah, SC:BW would last around 6 months longer with LoL on the door. Airforce would probably switch to LoL too then :D
But they didn't.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 22 2013 05:26 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 05:21 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 22 2013 05:20 Xiphos wrote:On September 22 2013 05:13 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 22 2013 05:11 Xiphos wrote:On September 22 2013 05:08 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 22 2013 05:06 Xiphos wrote:On September 22 2013 04:58 HornyHerring wrote:
You people have absolutely no imagination if you think that HD version of Brood War would be a long term success. If SD version of BW can do it, why not an HD one? *chuckles* SD version of BW is still played by majority of gamers? Isn't it still successful? SC2 still played by majority of gamers? We can go on and on. Define success. Granted BW was successful. SC2 is not either, i was not denying that. In fact, majority of gamers nowadays are covered with casuality (myself included). + Show Spoiler +And yes, we can go on and on, after all i still have no gotten icon of zergling, so i wonder if i even have 100 posts. One thing for sure is that SC:BW would have lasted longer in Korea (and yes that's all I care about) have Kespa not switched to SC2 as players shown many disdains toward the sequel and the dearth of audience. With the lack of popularity of SC2 and BW being shafted by the organization, Airforce folded their position in esport and truly hampered the progression of it and killed people's chance in continuing their path as a gamer (in the military). Yeah, SC:BW would last around 6 months longer with LoL on the door. Airforce would probably switch to LoL too then :D But they didn't.
Died before. But point taken :3. Though... i think there can be a chance for return of Airforce-like team in case of LoL, though tbh it is unrealistic to be any good.
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On September 22 2013 05:27 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 05:26 Xiphos wrote:On September 22 2013 05:21 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 22 2013 05:20 Xiphos wrote:On September 22 2013 05:13 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 22 2013 05:11 Xiphos wrote:On September 22 2013 05:08 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 22 2013 05:06 Xiphos wrote:On September 22 2013 04:58 HornyHerring wrote:
You people have absolutely no imagination if you think that HD version of Brood War would be a long term success. If SD version of BW can do it, why not an HD one? *chuckles* SD version of BW is still played by majority of gamers? Isn't it still successful? SC2 still played by majority of gamers? We can go on and on. Define success. Granted BW was successful. SC2 is not either, i was not denying that. In fact, majority of gamers nowadays are covered with casuality (myself included). + Show Spoiler +And yes, we can go on and on, after all i still have no gotten icon of zergling, so i wonder if i even have 100 posts. One thing for sure is that SC:BW would have lasted longer in Korea (and yes that's all I care about) have Kespa not switched to SC2 as players shown many disdains toward the sequel and the dearth of audience. With the lack of popularity of SC2 and BW being shafted by the organization, Airforce folded their position in esport and truly hampered the progression of it and killed people's chance in continuing their path as a gamer (in the military). Yeah, SC:BW would last around 6 months longer with LoL on the door. Airforce would probably switch to LoL too then :D But they didn't. Died before. But point taken :3. Though... i think there can be a chance for return of Airforce-like team in case of LoL, though tbh it is unrealistic to be any good.
A part of a reason why ACE was there in the first place to develop the mind of young soldiers to improve on their strategical depth in the battle with the support of BW, a highly militarized game.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 22 2013 05:30 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 05:27 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 22 2013 05:26 Xiphos wrote:On September 22 2013 05:21 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 22 2013 05:20 Xiphos wrote:On September 22 2013 05:13 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 22 2013 05:11 Xiphos wrote:On September 22 2013 05:08 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 22 2013 05:06 Xiphos wrote:On September 22 2013 04:58 HornyHerring wrote:
You people have absolutely no imagination if you think that HD version of Brood War would be a long term success. If SD version of BW can do it, why not an HD one? *chuckles* SD version of BW is still played by majority of gamers? Isn't it still successful? SC2 still played by majority of gamers? We can go on and on. Define success. Granted BW was successful. SC2 is not either, i was not denying that. In fact, majority of gamers nowadays are covered with casuality (myself included). + Show Spoiler +And yes, we can go on and on, after all i still have no gotten icon of zergling, so i wonder if i even have 100 posts. One thing for sure is that SC:BW would have lasted longer in Korea (and yes that's all I care about) have Kespa not switched to SC2 as players shown many disdains toward the sequel and the dearth of audience. With the lack of popularity of SC2 and BW being shafted by the organization, Airforce folded their position in esport and truly hampered the progression of it and killed people's chance in continuing their path as a gamer (in the military). Yeah, SC:BW would last around 6 months longer with LoL on the door. Airforce would probably switch to LoL too then :D But they didn't. Died before. But point taken :3. Though... i think there can be a chance for return of Airforce-like team in case of LoL, though tbh it is unrealistic to be any good. A part of a reason why ACE was there in the first place to develop the mind of young soldiers to improve on their strategical depth in the battle with the support of BW, a highly militarized game.
Shh, they may find strategic depth in LoL too. But yes, R.I.P.
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On September 22 2013 05:12 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 04:06 rd wrote:On September 22 2013 03:58 Destructicon wrote:On September 22 2013 03:51 rd wrote:On September 22 2013 03:45 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 22 2013 03:42 Incognoto wrote:So the only difference is move speed and deployment time? Yes that difference is so ridiculously fundamental it does indeed make a difference. You can catch a mech army out of position, you can't do so with a deathball. Also having more time to prepare for a push and take advantage of immobility is also a very huge advantage. You can catch deathball out of position, but that implies existence of such positions on maps and that is another question. Average speed of mech army between deployments > average speed of deathball if we imply that average speed of composition is speed of it's slowest part. On September 22 2013 03:45 rd wrote:On September 22 2013 03:36 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 22 2013 03:34 Incognoto wrote:On September 22 2013 03:32 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 22 2013 03:30 rd wrote:
[quote]
TvP is the match-up everyone wants to see mech in the most, or at least the BW fans do, and the way Protoss is designed will never allow mech to be competitive at the highest level. TvP is match-up where i want to see the mech the least tbh. Because instead of TvDeathball we get to see DeathballvP or even deathball vs deathball (lol). Mech isn't deathball. Mech is all about carefully positioning your tanks and shit so that they can fuck shit up without getting fucked themselves. It's slow pushing and controlling space and/or areas of the map. A deathball just moves around and fucks shit up as it moves. So the only difference is move speed and deployment time  ? On September 22 2013 03:33 rd wrote:On September 22 2013 03:32 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 22 2013 03:30 rd wrote:
[quote]
TvP is the match-up everyone wants to see mech in the most, or at least the BW fans do, and the way Protoss is designed will never allow mech to be competitive at the highest level. TvP is match-up where i want to see the mech the least tbh. Because instead of TvDeathball we get to see DeathballvP or even deathball vs deathball (lol). A revamp of Protoss would imply the breaking of Protoss death balls. See BW for details. Hence DeathballvP instead of TvDeathball Because mech isn't actually a ball. It's more like a line. So it'd actually be PvDeathlineofcreepingdeath. The only thing mech and the Protoss "deathball" have in common is that they're both defensive strategies that initially turtle. But they're vastly different in application and how they're dealt with. It's pretty sad how little you know of it, even if this is a different game. Agree, since i was fed up with seeing 2 mech games in my life: one of encounters between Flash vs Best (do not recall map sadly) and one of encounters between Bogus and Soulkey (ground zero). They both were frustrating to watch tbh, even if that implied great skill of winner. And yes, i am aware that mech is deathball without a ball, but with line. Also, application for both is simple: kill you enemy. By your definition anything is a death ball. It's rather unfortunate you embrace ignorance and summarily dismiss something rather than looking into it at all and just assuming your irrational whims are correct. But this is why the game isn't designed around irrational whims (or at least not anymore). On September 22 2013 03:48 Everlong wrote:
It's nice we have examined issues with SC2 so many times in such depth and passion, suggestions and so.. But is there actually ANY chance something is going to happen/change? I would say so, yes. The Diablo III team just removed the auction house after a LOT of community feedback (and by feedback I mean bitching, moaning, and quitting), which is a huge, huge admittance of a fundamental mistake, and they're going to be forced to redesign itemization entirely. They're independent teams, but Blizzard has recently seemed to move in a direction where they're much more receptive to complaints about their games that follow up with a decline in players. There is a big difference though. The AH isn't an integral part of the gameplay in D3, if you added or removed it would have little to no impact on the game. Where as the redesigns of the protoss race that people are suggesting or changing the pathing or combat in SC2, is orders of magnitude harder because it is ingrained into the game by now. As much as I hate to say this, I don't think it is realistic to expect a redesign of SC2 on such a large scale, at this point it would be much better to consolidate the lessons learned and make a better SC3. The only type of games where I saw changes to core design issues was in MMOs like WoW, where from BC to WoTLK to Cataclysm they kept revamping, classes, redesigning broken concepts, buffing weakened ones, adding in fun elements and so forth, but WoW is a fundamentally different game from WoW, and its success literally dependent on such patches to keep the game fresh, + the game is subscription based. Have you played D3, or even D2? The AH is HUUUUUUUUUUUGELY fundamental to a problem that alters a core aspect of how Diablo works, which is a hack and slash RPG where you find powerful items, and then hack and slash more for more better items. The trading economy in Diablo was disjointed, which means you relied primarily on finding your items, which was why the game was fun. The AH introduced inflation, and in order to compensate for this, items and their drop rates were nerfed into the ground. So now when you hunt monsters you aren't (or are extremely rarely) given the immediate reward of becoming more powerful. You found garbage to sell on the AH, and you would have to spend hundreds of hours trading on the AH to work your way to the powerful item that makes you feel like a badass. Not to mention, they lose revenue doing this, ontop of the fact that the concept of the AH came from their cash cow WoW (a hugely successful MMO I'm sure you know). The entire game is going to be flipped on it's head to accomodate this change. The power of items, how they're found and obtained, etc. This is probably the single biggest overhaul blizzard could do to fix D3. So yes, there is hope for SC2. But unfortunately, SC2 hasn't dealt with such a huge backlash as D3 has. SC2 has several years of fairly big success. So it's just hope at this point, not a guarantee. The AH is a feature but it isn't a huge feature. Sure, the drop rate of items went down a lot to compensate for the potential inflation, but that's a simple number's tweak you could make in the system that would allow more drops to happen and you'd solve most of the problems left by removing the AH. The equivalent in SC2 would be to that of removing say a unused unit from one race like Carrier. A overhaul of protoss is more akin to the overhaul of a entire class in D3, like completely rebuilding say the Demon Hunter, from the ground up, new resource system, new skills, new runes the works. Rehauling the pathing or altering the combat in SC2 is more like Blizzard taking the entire skill and rune system in D3 and overhauling it all, everything, maybe even doing away with some of the features and adding new ones, potentially even changing the combat system and removing their RNG engine. Removing the AH and fixing the loot drop rate is almost insignificant compared to the effort they would have to put in if they needed to rework from the ground up the combat, or skill system in D3.
You haven't answered my question. Have you played both games? Because it's a huge feature. Saying it's not is just totally and utterly unfounded. It affects the way all items are acquired which is the basis for progression in Diablo. The majority of your time spent in Diablo is finding items or trading for them.
Also it's an RPG, you can't make a direct comparison to SC2 because there isn't any comparisons to make. But you can make the loose comparison that Blizzard just scrapped a center piece feature for D3 and is rebuilding the way items are found from the ground-up, which, regardless of the effort required to do so, is a complete 180 on the design philosophy the D3 team originally came into the game with -- not to mention, it was also brought about from community unrest.
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4713 Posts
I have played D3 and didn't get to play D2 properly, as in haven't finished it or gotten trough the late game. However I don't see how that diminishes from the relevance of my post. Yes because of the design of the game, item drops are a huge deal, but the items are there already, what you tweak is just the rate at which they drop. So in that sense removing the AH will have less of an impact on the core gameplay of D3, which is to fight monsters using overpowered spells and make your char into a badass, then a total overhaul of either the skills, or the combat would have.
Also, its much, much easier to remove one flawed and marginal feature then to overhaul a core feature, I don't even understand why you tried to persist with this argument, it was absurd from the beginning, and you didn't try to argue against my points either.
Hopefully any higher ups at Blizz though will have taken notes of some of these issue and will work to refine the SC franchise further with their next installments, or who knows maybe WC4 hopefully some time.
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On September 22 2013 06:10 Destructicon wrote:
I have played D3 and didn't get to play D2 properly, as in haven't finished it or gotten trough the late game. However I don't see how that diminishes from the relevance of my post. Yes because of the design of the game, item drops are a huge deal, but the items are there already, what you tweak is just the rate at which they drop. So in that sense removing the AH will have less of an impact on the core gameplay of D3, which is to fight monsters using overpowered spells and make your char into a badass, then a total overhaul of either the skills, or the combat would have.
Also, its much, much easier to remove one flawed and marginal feature then to overhaul a core feature, I don't even understand why you tried to persist with this argument, it was absurd from the beginning, and you didn't try to argue against my points either.
Hopefully any higher ups at Blizz though will have taken notes of some of these issue and will work to refine the SC franchise further with their next installments, or who knows maybe WC4 hopefully some time.
Because you have no point. You're trying to make some argument about the actual effort the process will involve when that was completely irrelevant to the point I made. Ontop of that, you've never played D2 to enough to appreciate just how much the AH changes fundamental interactions with respect to the D2 economy, or just how insanely game changing items were to both your strength and your gameplay experience compared to D3. I think a better way to put it, is that items = killing monsters = player enjoyment.
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4713 Posts
No I made a point but you failed to see it. It all started from you saying that Blizzard is willing do change things. And I, pointed out that the change they are making are, fundamentally small in terms of effort in coding.
Firstly, it is just infinitely easier to remove a feature, then add one. Secondly the AH wasn't even a core feature, the core gameplay in D3 is to kill monsters, gain in power and get better items. You can still get items from drops even without the AH, and tweaking some numbers so you get more frequent drops, to compensate for the removal of AH, isn't as hard as you think.
Is the AH impaction on the gameplay? Yes absolutely, when a measure of your power comes from items, especially. Can you still play D3 just as well after you remove AH? Absolutely, thus it isn't a core feature.
Could you say, still play D3 the same if you removed rune? Definitely not.
Would it still be D3 if combat didn't have an RNG engine and went for a more action oriented fighting system (think Darksiders)? Not, absolutely not, it would cease to be a hack and slash.
The removal of AH is in no way shape and form comparable to the effort then either revamp the core gameplay of D3 or the core gameplay of SC2, any kind of revamps and reworks are massive.
I still don't see how me playing D2 has any relevance on my ability to judge such things, now you are just being stubborn, lets cease this silly argument.
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Honestly I don't understand all this critique of sc2. I have followed it since 2011 and when the new WCS-format was introduced I think it was a great improvement. Suddenly we got top quality tournament play almost every week day and it's all part of a bigger story of wcs-points. I watch so much more starcraft II now than a year ago.
Surely some people retire, but it's easy to exaggerate this because of the phenomena of selective perception; we see people retiring but we don't really see all the new comers as clearly. Retiring is a visible phenomena, coming into the scene is a slower more anonymous process.
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On September 22 2013 06:45 Destructicon wrote:
No I made a point but you failed to see it. It all started from you saying that Blizzard is willing do change things. And I, pointed out that the change they are making are, fundamentally small in terms of effort in coding.
Firstly, it is just infinitely easier to remove a feature, then add one. Secondly the AH wasn't even a core feature, the core gameplay in D3 is to kill monsters, gain in power and get better items. You can still get items from drops even without the AH, and tweaking some numbers so you get more frequent drops, to compensate for the removal of AH, isn't as hard as you think.
Is the AH impaction on the gameplay? Yes absolutely, when a measure of your power comes from items, especially. Can you still play D3 just as well after you remove AH? Absolutely, thus it isn't a core feature.
Could you say, still play D3 the same if you removed rune? Definitely not.
Would it still be D3 if combat didn't have an RNG engine and went for a more action oriented fighting system (think Darksiders)? Not, absolutely not, it would cease to be a hack and slash.
The removal of AH is in no way shape and form comparable to the effort then either revamp the core gameplay of D3 or the core gameplay of SC2, any kind of revamps and reworks are massive.
I still don't see how me playing D2 has any relevance on my ability to judge such things, now you are just being stubborn, lets cease this silly argument.
There can't be an argument, you won't acknowledge (or more likely don't understand) how fundamental items and the economy surrounding them are to core gameplay in D2/D3, which the AH plays a major role in influencing.
And you not playing D2 is pretty big, because you have absolutely no point of reference of how Diablo functions without the auction house. The way players use their time to play the game, and what motivates/incentivizes them to continue playing are worlds apart in difference.
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And why does sc2 have to be big anyway? Why as this complaining and whining? Why not just sit back and enjoy the game? I don't get it...
And besides, great art and music are never ever popular art and music. Sc2 is truly a fantastic, complex game for those who understand to appreciate it. The majority will never understand that, but so be it.
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On September 22 2013 06:54 Jstare wrote:
And why does sc2 have to be big anyway? Why as this complaining and whining? Why not just sit back and enjoy the game? I don't get it...
And besides, great art and music are never ever popular art and music. Sc2 is truly a fantastic, complex game for those who understand to appreciate it. The majority will never understand that, but so be it.
Because it WAS big and NOW it is dwindling. This thread is to analysis the reason for its diminishing status.
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Lack of a superbowl event? What do you think blizzcon is? Wcs funnels in to blizzcon, Where the worlds best sc2 hots player is crowned for the current year. That IS the superbowl of sc2 tournaments. It doesn't get any better than that.
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Well if we refer strictly to the proscene the answers are very simple but they disturb a lot of people(especially the ones on this forum and the former bw elitists) but since I do not care about them i am going to lay them down simply:
1.antiquated competitional sistem
2.monocountry dominance
3.too much competition form rival esports
1.Antiquatee competitional system
Compared to lol,dota2 and cod sc2 has a very old competitonal system that provides very low enterttainment value.The idea that everyone form around the world plays in online only qualfiers is simply very unappealing to the lol studio play and the valve western region/eastern region diviison.Yes,despiite the fact that in sc2 you are accused of racism if you want to see people form your own continent play(i have seen that form mods here on teamliquid) modern esports tend to go the way of traditional global sports such as football or baseball.The system goes like this:each country has 1 or two representatives and at the end of the year the top 1 or two representatives form one country get to meet in the global competition.This works well for football,basebvall etc.One thing to note is that in this system despite the fact that certain countries have far greater developed internal scenes than other countries they still send only two representatives to the global finals.Why is that?Well because people much smarter than us relalized that they need many couuntries for a thriving sport and in order to do that each country must be represented and given a chance so that the sport does not shrink to be playable in only one country.THis si why for example in the football world cup brazil has only one national team althought hey could probably send 5.The reason for this is simple:more acountries and more people equals more sponrs and more money and more fans.And this steamrolls on to the next generations.Major esports such as dota2 and lol have realised the same thing and have introduced something that the sc2 scene frowns appon and considers racist:REGIONLOCKING.Yes despite the fact many people admire dota2 and lol proscene succes they do not want to apply the same stuff in sc2(and watch the repliestot this post because I can gurantee you there will be users who will either accuse me of racism or give me stupid arguments which I will debunk further).
2.Monocountry dominance
Well this is selfexplanatory.Sc2 right now is virtually 99% korean,There is no active foreigner achieving anything in korea right now.in wcs na there is no foreigner past the quarters and wcs eu is only saved by lag but even there in the last wcs there was no foreigner in the finals and each passing year the chances are the situaiton is the same.As a direct effect people from ourtside korea have started to not care about sc2 since none of their representatives are in there.Mainstream audiences(aka the hundreds of thousands as people that an esport needs to make views and attract sponsors) are not attracted to arthuro vs another unknown korean.They do not want to see that since it provides 0 entertainment and quality.Hence they do not watch it and you het 10k viewers for wcs na while lol constantly gets 200k.It is sad and it is reality.And the viewership goes down every year simply because there are more koreans every year.
This in turn results in:less sponsors and a decliing proscene where players have lots of issues(check out huks conversation with thorzain on reddit).And form a capitalistic point of view it is perfectly normal.Sponsors need viwers to buy their products.sc2 simply does not provide the viewers and most foreign sponsors are not interested in the south korean market.Btw let me asl you this have you seen any major spnsor in sc2 recently?The answer is no.Have you seen in lol?Lol is now sponsored by american express and a lol team(curse) is sponsored by nissan.Sc2 is still sponsored only by razor.What is the dirrect effect?
1.foreogners leaving the scene or not joining in the first place
2.teams dropping sc2 since no sponsor pays for it.
And for those who rely on the wcs i have a warning:WE ARE NOT ENTITLED TO A WCS>Blizzard tried to make wcs happend but with the low viewership it brings i doubt they will continue the same fiancial investment.
The only people who actually appreciate the current sustem have really dumb arguments like:"DOnt you want to see the highest level of play????Are you a racist???Why do not you like koreans do you want to see only white people??""
This argument is the dumbest one of all.First of all the highest level of play isnt in wcs na or wcs eu.It is in wcs kr and if you wanna see the highest level of play go watch wcs kr.What we are seeing now in wcs na and eu are over the top koreans or the ones bad enough that they can not make it in korea and they ran to foreign countries.And that has no entertainment value.Their levle of play is good but not entertaining enough for me to watch it.And I do not and most of the people do not.And the only people who watc it do not justify the 1.6 million dollar tournamnet that is the wcs.No I am
not a racist and no I do not hate koreans.It is jut that i wanna see europeans play in europe,north americans play in na and koreans in korea.
3.Competition from other esports.
BW in its hay day never had competitoon form other espots in korea(major competition at least) and in europe and na it was nonexistentDespite popular belief that bw was the apex of esports and it was the first and only esport of its day that is mostly a lie propagated by bw elitists.Bw was a korean only esport.Nothing more nothing else.When bw was played in korea europe was 100% cs1.6 and later it switched to wc3 and dota1,wc3 being also the game that delivered some of sc2's best players like stephano,grubby,naniwa etc.Bw was inexistent as an esport in europe back them.I remember all the pc bangs in romania having wc3 and dota1.None had bw and in othe rcountrie it was the same.In na the situation was simmilar.Back when bw was good in korea in na a game known as halo2 was the major esport and a player like walshy was making the first 1 million dollars from esports and buying a house from esports money.Also he appeared on mtv and espn.Yes a halo2 player was and probably stil is the highest earning esports player of all time(sorry flash).
Nowadays new esports such as dota and lol realised that to be succesfull they have to appeal both to the foreign scene and to asians scenes and give everybody an equal chance(see my arguments above).Also they realised that in order to be succesfull they have to provide cool features like ingame cameras,community involvement stuff like skins etc.sc2 does not provide anything simmilar hence all the viewers are going to the competition.
Ok i wrote too much for tonight but please if you reply to this post do not do it with dumb argumets such as the highest level of play one or with playing the race card.Also i know i made typos but most of you guys are native speakers and
you get the general idea
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I think I have an important thing to say. Blizzard has created their special game genres with Crafts and Diablo, but it's not the balance or innovations in the gameplay that made them great in the eyes of the WHOLE WORLD, it was ART design.
And this is where both SC2 and D3 failed.
When I watched the D3 add-on teaser, I couldn't care less about the new class, new weapons, level cap and removal of AH. I saw same UNINSPIRING monsters, levels and spells design, same meaningless story, and I knew I won't buy it.
SC2 may be already better balanced than TFT, but it still loses from the spectator's view extremely hard. I don't feel any connection to the races at all, what makes them special, which qualities make them different and interesting to explore and / or challenging to play. You can still make esports with atrocious (childish, undetalised, meshed up, generic in case of LoL) art design, but if you don't have the passionate viewership base, it's up to nothing.
And by passion here I mean the specific desire to see units from the SC2 fighting instead of units from StarWars or C&C or Annihilation or LotR (you get the idea). We appreciate players' personalities because we link them with the unique usage of units and abilities and only after that with strategies, charisma and game plan. People want to see more BW units not because they would instantly provide better gameplay in the first place, but because we LOVE the units themselves.
Unfortunately, when I turn the SC2 stream on, I see Generic Dragons instead of Mutas, Nerubian Weavers instead of Roaches, Footmans instead of Zealots, Undead Accolytes instead of Templars, Generic Robots instead of Firebats, Generic Helicopters instead of Wraiths (Banshees), Generic Big Robots instead of Goliaths (Thors) and the list goes on and on.
The only reason you can be hyped of watching SC2 without taking into account the players, the matchup and the map they play on, is because other competitive RTS don't exist in this format. It doesn't mean that SC2 is a bad (or dying) esport game, it just has inherently less visual appeal and comprehension to provide for the viewers as a show.
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I think a very simple way to make SC2 more exciting to watch is:
Make more high mobility units!
What made WoL boring to watch?
- Brood lords every game, slowly eating away the enemy's base like a bacteria. zzzzz
- Or TvT - tanks, tanks, tanks, sieged up, gridlocked. zzzz. Finally, after 15 min, a catch of tanks out of position, game over.
- Not to mention ALL of terran's tier 3 units are slow as hell
Changes:
1. Make terran tier 3 units FAST. FAST = more interesting and more frequent fights.
2. Make other units faster too! Fast = awesome. LoL is exciting to play and watch because shit is fast! Flashes, dashes, gap closers, etc etc.
3. Take away the slower units and make them FAST instead! SC2 has too many slow freakin units/mechanics, encouraging gridlocks, posturing (just moving deathballs around without fighting), and turtling.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 22 2013 07:12 romanianthunder wrote:
Well if we refer strictly to the proscene the answers are very simple but they disturb a lot of people(especially the ones on this forum and the former bw elitists) but since I do not care about them i am going to lay them down simply:
1.antiquated competitional sistem
2.monocountry dominance
3.too much competition form rival esports
...
Ok i wrote too much for tonight but please if you reply to this post do not do it with dumb argumets such as the highest level of play one or with playing the race card.Also i know i made typos but most of you guys are native speakers and
you get the general idea
1. Whatever, it is up for your preference. You are forgetting one minor thing though: Due to Korea's general SC dominance Korea's SC2 is scene as of now is simply oversaturated with talent to the point of Code B players losing to players, who move on to Code S the season they qualify for Code A. See? 1 Code S player, who made it from Code B, did it at the cost of a chance to do it for 15+ other players in his bracket. So you get ridiculously stacked Korea region that has WAY too much talent for Korea to handle and 2 other regions with 1 clearly dominant player (Naniwa on point, Scarlett with wrists, well, China has some competition though) and rather mediocre (especially compared to Korea) competition. Now you suggest us to use WCG-like system and use an even representation at world finals that will probably lead to koreans stomping everyone in one-sided games or going out in flames for the reasons as there are players like San (aka falling apart on grand stage). Hell, you may want to check recent IEM qualifier and be fair, did you expect ALBM to be there of all people in his stage 1 bracket?
2. Yes, but you are speaking you romania's experience, rather than overall foreign scene one. BW scene existed in other countries, but compared to Korea's scene it was just a bunch of amateurs, that would probably enjoy their existence on C-team. Also, your entertainment thing is BS, since games between koreans may be just as boring and just as epic as games between foreigners with only probable difference being general level of play being higher.
3. First of all: your charade about walsho or whoever this guy is pathetic, since the only way he could make that mythic e-sports 1M$ is his payment, since he never won anything even remotely close to that in e-sports (granted, most earning player in e-sports IS FPS player, that played AvP2, Doom 3, Quake, Painkiller and Unreal tournament). Next, LoL and Dota 2 are f2p, and those little things you mentioned is one of the reasons they exist: to milk dem monies.
On September 22 2013 07:29 SpeghettiJoe wrote:
I think a very simple way to make SC2 more exciting to watch is:
Make more high mobility units!
What made WoL boring to watch?
- Brood lords every game, slowly eating away the enemy's base like a bacteria. zzzzz
- Or TvT - tanks, tanks, tanks, sieged up, gridlocked. zzzz. Finally, after 15 min, a catch of tanks out of position, game over.
- Not to mention ALL of terran's tier 3 units are slow as hell
Changes:
1. Make terran tier 3 units FAST. FAST = more interesting and more frequent fights.
2. Make other units faster too! Fast = awesome. LoL is exciting to play and watch because shit is fast! Flashes, dashes, gap closers, etc etc.
3. Take away the slower units and make them FAST instead! SC2 has too many slow freakin units/mechanics, encouraging gridlocks, posturing (just moving deathballs around without fighting), and turtling.
I like this guy, he may be a troll, but i like his cute attempts at it.
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